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View Full Version : Tuning an 1860 Colt by Uberti



Jackrabbit1957
09-18-2022, 07:13 PM
Recently I was asked to tune and repair an 1860 Colt by Lags and Armoredman. Unfortunately most of my photos were so badly out of focus as to be unusable. so I have some that were taken after the job was done that could be seen. Photos 1 and 2 show the pistol after the work has been done, 2 shows the action shield and cap post installed. Both of these keep cap fragments out of the action and jamming up the works.

Jackrabbit1957
09-18-2022, 07:20 PM
304657This pic shows the bolt from the bottom, note the 2 arms are are the same thickness, the left arm was thinned to about half the thickness as the right, this gives the bolt much longer life as the spring flexes over the entire length rather just in one area. A bolt guide was also fabricated and installed to facilitate more precise timing. Music wire torsion type springs were also made and installed for the bolt and trigger.

Jackrabbit1957
09-18-2022, 07:28 PM
304658[/ATTACH Here is a view of the wedge from below. It needs to be seated completely and firmly, when I received this pistol the cylinder was dragging against the barrel due to the short arbor or cylinder pin. This was shimmed and the barrel to cylinder gap set to .003 gap. When the gun is taken apart and reassembled it will be the same each time as long as the wedge is seated firmly. Uberti has stated in the past that you set the barrel to cylinder gap br how far the wedge was tapped in....this is 100% wrong! On the larger pistols like the Dragoons and Walkers the pistols will self destruct under full house loads and it won't take long. The other pic is the forcing cone after being cleaned up.[ATTACH=CONFIG]304659

LAGS
09-18-2022, 07:39 PM
Good job.
I can't wait to watch Armoredman to shoot it.

Jackrabbit1957
09-18-2022, 07:43 PM
The work scope included adding an action stop, this stops over cocking and damaging internal parts, installing a Ruger type hand spring and plunger, correcting timing and barrel to cylinder gap, action shield, bolt guide, music wire springs for the trigger and bolt, cap post, re cutting the forcing cone, it was pitted a bit and needed to be cleaned up. Once the work was completed I packed the action with Hi temp wheel bearing grease to help with keeping powder fouling out of the innards and it keeps things lubed as well. It also simplifies cleaning after a range session, clean the barrel and cylinder as usual, wipe the frame down, done. Detail strip once a year, clean and repack with Mobil one or equivalent. Once all this was done Armoredman will have a nice piece of machinery that will serve him a lifetime and then some. Thanks for looking at this post, I apologize for not having more photos, when I do the next one I will try to get better photos.

Jackrabbit1957
09-18-2022, 07:46 PM
It should be a good accurate pistol now that the barrel isn't flopping around on the frame!! Please keep me posted on how it shoots!

armoredman
09-18-2022, 10:01 PM
That looks awesome, sir! I will be more than happy to write up a review, and if I can get enough space on the line, perhaps some video as well! That was the first gun I bought for myself after my divorce, all I could afford, and it was fun until it jammed shut on me. Hmm, maybe I'll have to send the 1858 to you later - I noticed it has a zero cylinder gap.

LAGS
09-18-2022, 10:12 PM
From the work that you described that you did.
This seems like you corrected many Factory items that should get attention.
Like you said,
It was a Tune Up and not really a Repair.
It sounds like many people have guns that could use a little Tuning before they need repair.
I will pass the word about your work and see if you could possibly help some others.

armoredman
09-19-2022, 04:26 AM
Just for future reference, this is how it DID shoot, when I first got it. Willing to bet there will be an improvement! :)

304672

Hellgate
09-20-2022, 11:52 AM
Are the chamber diameters equal to or slightly greater than the bore diameter? Some guns have .448 diameter cylinder chambers and .450+ bores. They shoot OK but not as accurate as when the chambers are reamed to match the bore. Fortunately dead soft lead often bumps up when fired to seal the bore.

Jackrabbit1957
09-20-2022, 10:46 PM
Interesting that you mention that, I think if the ball can engage the rifling it should be reasonably accurate, point in case, my Ferguson rifle is a .650 bore, it will not shoot accurately with a bore size ball, it wants a .614 to .620 diameter ball. Caliber size ball in a Ferg grows these little wings that really throw the accuracy off. I know its a little different in a revolver but really don't see much point in changing chamber size on a plinker type pistol.

armoredman
09-23-2022, 09:24 PM
Jackrabbit brought the 1960 over today, nice gentleman, and the differences were obvious. The action was butter smooth, and the revolver just felt like it weas ready to go...so, we went!
We headed out, me with the 1860 and my son with that incredible 54 caliber rifle LAGS rebuilt for him. We walked out on the line and there was exactly two people all along the 300 yard line. We felt good about setting up at the other end, to keep powder smoke away from them...that did NOT last. Suddenly EVERYONE was there, and the empty line had someone at every bench. Oh well. This happened while I was loading my first six rounds...to shoot at the left over cardboard since I forgot I needed new 1/2s for the target stand. Whoops. So, with staples and tape, I built an ersatz triangle stand, and it held together long enough. Here we are at 10 yards, where I always start with handguns. POA is the X, of course. All rounds fired two hand standing, no rest. All loads fired .454 round ball, 30 grains of Olde Eynsford, (no, you can't have any), FFFG under Remington #11 caps.

https://i.imgur.com/ukbcRrU.jpg

Not too shabby.

https://i.imgur.com/L1yzWc9.jpg''On this shrunken mini B27 style target, that's about a 2.5 inch group. I can live with that, while I find the sweet spot.

So, how about 20 yards? Geez what a bad photo.

https://i.imgur.com/57tcwmX.jpg

Now it is important to note the steel target at 50 yards. I had to wait for a cold line to tape and move my target so I loaded and fired 6 balls at the 3/4 IDPA steel at 50 yards. I hit it once, with the last round, with a center hold, originally thinking it was shooting high - I was low. But I got it.

So, shooting the paper at 20...this is a big front heavy gun to try to steady two handed standing...please note I am pre-excusing myself...someone has to do it. :grin:
Zoomed in photo with cell phone camera - I couldn't get out to it. Not bad for a potato phone picture.

https://i.imgur.com/8tckq6l.jpg

Oops. However, the six shot group measures about 9" by 3". The scoring ring at work on our B-27 measures 17" by 10". We only shoot 6 at 25, the rest at 15 or closer...so I could qualify with this as a defensive sidearm with the dept... well, if they ALLOWED black powder revolvers, somewhat doubtful, right now.

The ONLY thing that was a negative is the caps dropped free right on my shooting hand - hot brass bits will get your attention! is that Jackrabbits fault, or mine for not using the right technique to shoot a cap and ball revolver? Mine. Oops, and a very minor annoyance at worst. Worse annoyance was discovering we had forgotten to refill the powder measures, so we were OUT of magic boom powder rather quickly. Dagnabbit.

Then, idiots showed up. This is looking forward of the line up in the sky. No, those little black dots you MIGHT be able to see are not birds - they are HANG GLIDERS!

https://i.imgur.com/lnwdTab.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jqLyd2r.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WeAd6Uy.jpg

One landed right behind the range. Without going in to too much detail, I talked to the idiot, and called Parks and Rec to make sure the NEXT time they have a hang-gliding competition, they move it AWAY from the firing range! These guys didn't even know we were there - imagine if they decided to land in that nice open landing strip, that turns out to be the 300 yard line!

Back to the revolver - everything worked very smoothly, though I could feel some new parts settling in to work with each other. Functioning was smooth and easy, accuracy more than acceptable for what it is. I think if I had benched it, I would have some incredible groups out of it.
Also, the 1860 just looked drop dead sexy out there, too. 8-) I am very happy with the work, the price and the service! Thank you, Jackrabbit1957!

https://i.imgur.com/dabKa7L.jpg

HWooldridge
09-23-2022, 10:09 PM
Good shooting! These old designs are not toys and group much better than people think.

I inherited an original 1860 Army that my dad and I used to shoot in the 1970’s. It had gain twist rifling that was cut pretty deep and the original mold dropped .460 balls, which were a tight fit but didn’t shave a ring in the cylinder so they were a tight fit going down the barrel. It would stay on an empty Clorox bottle all day at 50 yds - we did rest across the truck hood to steady our aim. I quit shooting it because one of the chambers was eroded and I didn’t want it to blow up.

I’m sure you could work up a good load that will one-hole at 20-25 yds.

Jackrabbit1957
09-24-2022, 12:15 AM
Thanks so much for the write up Armoredman, it's always good to see the end results of one's work. Really enjoyed meeting you and your bride today. Glad the pistol is doing what it's intended to do, keep up the good shooting.

Super Sneaky Steve
09-24-2022, 09:31 AM
If you're having trouble holding it up, put a shoulder stock on it.

HWooldridge
09-24-2022, 11:18 AM
And don’t forget - every one of those hits would have killed or severely wounded the recipient, so the pistol worked exactly as originally designed.

armoredman
10-03-2022, 06:53 AM
Yes it did, which is much more than I can say for it when I got it. It was used when I bought it, and it gummed up quickly.
Super Sneaky, I just have to get used to a front heavy revolver again, after shooting my plastic wundernines so much. :)
Now, I need a cross draw rig for the 1860 so it can ride along with the 1858...

indian joe
10-03-2022, 06:12 PM
Interesting that you mention that, I think if the ball can engage the rifling it should be reasonably accurate, point in case, my Ferguson rifle is a .650 bore, it will not shoot accurately with a bore size ball, it wants a .614 to .620 diameter ball. Caliber size ball in a Ferg grows these little wings that really throw the accuracy off. I know its a little different in a revolver but really don't see much point in changing chamber size on a plinker type pistol.

Jackrabbit my two cents here
If the ball can engage - it should be accurate ?--- what we found was yes kind of - if we used filler over the powder (about 1/3rd volume of filler to 2/3 powder) we got ok accuracy but if we loaded straight powder it went to hell - deep rifling part of that I reckon - this was 12thou groove to land from memory - much like a Green mountain ML barrel is cut (I prefer the depth rifling that CVA used - 8 thou I think) --- so lots of clearance for gas cutting around the ball even though its got some rifling engagement- if the plinker is ok to use a target style load its proly ok and he can buy commercial ball.
These cylinders cut easy - I made the reamer with a little tapered lead on it and did it by hand - but then you need a mold and cast your own.
Tinkered with loads a bit but we got both guns shooting nice (better than anything we managed previous) with full cylinder loads

Jackrabbit1957
10-04-2022, 12:11 AM
Thanks for that, always interested in learning something new and different. I ran across a different loading method recently that worked out well for a mildly annoying pistol , accuracy improved considerably, still need some further testing but it's real promising.

indian joe
10-05-2022, 07:52 AM
Thanks for that, always interested in learning something new and different. I ran across a different loading method recently that worked out well for a mildly annoying pistol , accuracy improved considerably, still need some further testing but it's real promising.

the filler we used was semolina, ground about like beach sand, I was raw beginner at the time - somebody said semolina so .....seemed like it worked. I didnt try greased felt wad - that may have worked ok too but - good felt expensive and the grocery store dont carry it .

Jackrabbit1957
10-05-2022, 09:31 AM
I just never cared for the idea of blasting breakfast down range.

indian joe
10-06-2022, 12:11 AM
I just never cared for the idea of blasting breakfast down range.

me neither!! had ta do it fer a while till we got tired enough of the problem to fix it.
Blackpowder is the ideal filler for sure...........................

armoredman
10-06-2022, 01:10 AM
Only "filler" I ever used was when I very first started shooting the holy black, and I had a .31 caliber Baby Dragoon of VERY uncertain parentage, and my buddy who swore he knew things told me to top off each chamber with Crisco. I have never ever used any filler like Cream of Wheat or anything else between powder and ball - they didn't have random breakfast cereals laying about when these guns were in wide use, I'm thinking.

indian joe
10-06-2022, 03:22 AM
Only "filler" I ever used was when I very first started shooting the holy black, and I had a .31 caliber Baby Dragoon of VERY uncertain parentage, and my buddy who swore he knew things told me to top off each chamber with Crisco. I have never ever used any filler like Cream of Wheat or anything else between powder and ball - they didn't have random breakfast cereals laying about when these guns were in wide use, I'm thinking.

curious if you have measured a few originals ? if so whats the specs?
For my money this problem only arises because the Italian makers didnt always get it right to begin with
if we had
1) sensible depth rifling - shallow enough to allow the ball to properly obturate and fill the windage
2) cylinder diameter a couple thou greater than bore size so we got decent fit (instead of ten thou undersize !!)
3) proper arbour fit

With those three things in place (yeah a few other little tweaks and tuneups to make em run nicer) most of these repro guns will shoot accurate enough to get 90/100 (or better) on the international pistol target.

What was their main purpose in life ? if we pick self defense/personal protection that is good enough to head shoot a rattle snake up close

HWooldridge
10-06-2022, 09:56 AM
curious if you have measured a few originals ? if so whats the specs?
For my money this problem only arises because the Italian makers didnt always get it right to begin with
if we had
1) sensible depth rifling - shallow enough to allow the ball to properly obturate and fill the windage
2) cylinder diameter a couple thou greater than bore size so we got decent fit (instead of ten thou undersize !!)
3) proper arbour fit

With those three things in place (yeah a few other little tweaks and tuneups to make em run nicer) most of these repro guns will shoot accurate enough to get 90/100 (or better) on the international pistol target.

What was their main purpose in life ? if we pick self defense/personal protection that is good enough to head shoot a rattle snake up close

Agreed - they were designed to shoot men who were likely shooting back. They may have been used offensively with success by cavalry troops, but the original intent was defense. Six fairly fast shots, and the ability to hit a person up to 50 yards or a bit further. Side arms which achieved those goals reliably were considered a success.

I was fortunate to have the opportunity to shoot original Colts and Remingtons in my early teen years, and they were plenty accurate for the task. However, the old men in my family always favored rifles and shotguns for serious work - they realized pistols were not toys, but also were not the equal of long arms.

Jackrabbit1957
10-06-2022, 11:35 AM
Lots of folks sell these pistol short as to what they are capable of. I found that most are sighted in at 100 yards with level sights, with minute of 5 gallon bucket accuracy. I have hit bowling pins at that range as well. The Walkers will go a bit farther with a little more punch due to larger powder charges. For the most part they were made for shooting people that were intending to do you harm as stated earlier and they will that very well.