A paradigm shift in hunting

[Wolfdog91]

Thought this was interesting. Personally I love wacky just out there stuff. From .17 hornet to a .357 typhoon love crazy ,love people trying to reinvent and improve stuff. Could honestly care less if something already works . But they way this guy explain how we went from the idea of a hunter having a leaver gun to a military style bolt gun to a modern day AR really made me stop and go " Dang he has a point dosent he ! Wonder what my kids are gonna be shifting to ? Fin stabilized flechettes from rail gun of sorts ? "
O to wonder. Anyhow figured is share... Now too see if someone can neck down a 9mm or .357 mag to .17 cal lol !


https://youtu.be/cQJDYy3NQMg


https://youtu.be/jsg7h8K0q4I


https://youtu.be/O3Ctjngpm5o

[stubshaft]

In the early 70's I had a 17/44 mag. rifle so necking down a 9mm or 357 is NOT a stretch. The shooters? nowadays spend too much time watching gel tests and IMAGINING the lethality of their anemic little cartridges with the paper ballistics the "prove" that they are great performing cartridges and much better at killing anything. BUT they also CANNOT take any form of recoil and resort to ungodly contraptions stuck onto the muzzles of their rifles/pistols shotguns?

Sunday last, I was shooting a model 94, 30/30 with plinking loads (11.0 Unique/ 170 NEI cast) and offered one of the "black gun" shooters next to me the opportunity to shoot it. After 3 rounds he lay the rifle down and remarked about its "stout" recoil? What a candyass!!!

I know that MY kids will be shooting proven rounds when hunting that have withstood the test of time and have accounted for numerous game animals in THE FIELD NOT on Youtube.

[Winger Ed.]

Lever guns don't have the sex appeal of evil black rifles, so the gun comic books don't cover them much.
But they have probably killed more deer over the years than everything else put together.

[BLAHUT]

I am waiting on someone to neck down a 20mm to a phonograph needle? ?
one of my sons does a lot of full power loads in shooting. I gave him my 45/70 bear gun load and my guide gun and asked him what he thought? he never made it through the 20 rounds I gave him to try. after about 10 rounds he handed it back and said, thank you that's enough. it hurts on both ends.
This son was about 10 or 12 years old and wone his first standing match with an AR15 shooting along with adults at 100 yds.

[Hick]

Lever guns don't have the sex appeal of evil black rifles, so the gun comic books don't cover them much.
But they have probably killed more deer over the years than everything else put together.

And don't forget-- most of those deer were taken without a scope. I was out at the range one day with my win 94 shooting 3" gongs at 100 yards when a couple showed up to sight in their scoped rifle for deer hunting. They saw me hit a few gongs and asked me how I did that. "How can you hit anything without a scope??" I didn't bother to tell them 3" at 100 yards is not particularly remarkable for a 30-30.

[GONRA]

GONRA'a "memory" is probably all screwed up, but over the years,
you've see such cartridges at large gun shows.
Lookers - not shooters....

[dverna]

People are foolish.

If you have a .270, .280, .308, .30/06...etc you have all the hunting caliber you need for 98% or more of what we need to kill. Not ideal for big bears or moose but how many people will hunt them? If so, add a .338 or .375 if you are lucky enough to hunt them.

If you have a .223, you have a decent varmint gun.

Two or three bolt guns cover 100% of what you need for hunting. Everything else is superfluous. Learn to shoot and get the job done.

Some states have silly rules that require adding another caliber like the .350 Legend.

[M-Tecs]

People are foolish.

If you have a .270, .280, .308, .30/06...etc you have all the hunting caliber you need for 98% or more of what we need to kill. Not ideal for big bears or moose but how many people will hunt them? If so, add a .338 or .375 if you are lucky enough to hunt them.

If you have a .223, you have a decent varmint gun.

Two or three bolt guns cover 100% of what you need for hunting. Everything else is superfluous. Learn to shoot and get the job done.

Some states have silly rules that require adding another caliber like the .350 Legend.

People have been conditioned to be highly susceptible to the MSM messaging. It mostly started with making people good consumers for the MSM's sales pitches. That has morphed into making people mindless consumers of anything and everything the MSM is "pushing".

[Winger Ed.]

"How can you hit anything without a scope??" .

I've encountered that guy too, and he has asked me that too.
I'll be at the range with a Marlin, a M1A, and an old original SP1 Colt AR. None with a scope.
I won't win the Wimbledon Cup, but I don't do too bad.
That guy will look through his spotting scope and wonder if I'm shooting at an old target someone left behind.

They'll lay out a rifle that's worth more than all mine put together.
A scope about the size of my leg, muzzle brake, a leveling glass on top of the rings, etc.
When their pattern looks like buckshot at 100 yards---- there must be something wrong with the rifle.

[sigep1764]

I have 3 AR's and while they are fun, I do not hunt with them. For centerfire rifles, I have 270 and 223 bolt guns and a 30-30 lever. The 30-30 has never been hunted with yet, the 270 gets the rifle season work and doesn't fail. The 223 bolt was really just for fun for me, but my buddies kid was wanting to start hunting. He's 10 and can put three rounds of 223 inside 3 inches at 100 and took his first deer with it last year. Fist sized exit would at 60 yards with a cast boolit. He will use it again this year and next year he is moving to a 243. A gradual move up in caliber and recoil combined with plenty of practice has helped a lot of shooters. If a shooter has never experienced recoil and they shoot heavy recoiling rifle, there are a lot that can't take it.

[dverna]

I have 3 AR's and while they are fun, I do not hunt with them. For centerfire rifles, I have 270 and 223 bolt guns and a 30-30 lever. The 30-30 has never been hunted with yet, the 270 gets the rifle season work and doesn't fail. The 223 bolt was really just for fun for me, but my buddies kid was wanting to start hunting. He's 10 and can put three rounds of 223 inside 3 inches at 100 and took his first deer with it last year. Fist sized exit would at 60 yards with a cast boolit. He will use it again this year and next year he is moving to a 243. A gradual move up in caliber and recoil combined with plenty of practice has helped a lot of shooters. If a shooter has never experienced recoil and they shoot heavy recoiling rifle, there are a lot that can't take it.

Just a suggestion.

I had my "fling" with the 6mm's and .25's and got rid of them all. Get the boy a "real" caliber (6.5 to .30) and download it. Most deer are shot at less than 150 yards. As he gets bigger, the loads can be dialed up to suit. Let him load the ammunition and teach him a great skill.

The money "wasted" on am entry level .243 and scope can be put into a quality rifle and scope that will serve him for the next 7 decades of hunting. Once he gets his "grown up" rifle, the .243 will become a range toy. Been there...got the T shirt.

[sigep1764]

Just a suggestion.

I had my "fling" with the 6mm's and .25's and got rid of them all. Get the boy a "real" caliber (6.5 to .30) and download it. Most deer are shot at less than 150 yards. As he gets bigger, the loads can be dialed up to suit. Let him load the ammunition and teach him a great skill.

The money "wasted" on am entry level .243 and scope can be put into a quality rifle and scope that will serve him for the next 7 decades of hunting. Once he gets his "grown up" rifle, the .243 will become a range toy. Been there...got the T shirt.

Would have been my first thought too, Don. His father bought the 243 before he was born. Its sitting in the safe waiting for a scope. I suppose he could trade that 243 for another 270. 270 is my and his fathers choice of calibers and we shoot pretty easy Red Dot loads.

[JSnover]

Sunday last, I was shooting a model 94, 30/30 with plinking loads (11.0 Unique/ 170 NEI cast) and offered one of the "black gun" shooters next to me the opportunity to shoot it. After 3 rounds he lay the rifle down and remarked about its "stout" recoil? What a candyass!!!
That's funny!
I don't care much for the AR platform - not for any good reason, I just got tired of it - but I also walked away from the 94 in 30-30. Recoil wasn't 'excessive,' I just fell in love with a bolt-action 30-06.
But a young man who can't take 11 grains of unique under a 170 grain boolit?? I learned to shoot dad's 94 with factory deer loads by the time I was 14 and might have weighed 120 pounds dripping wet. Hopefully that guy at the range was an only child.

[firefly1957]

In the 1980's I read a lot about the 17-357 Magnum a lot of people claimed they where getting 4000 f/s then chronographs got cheaper and most found out they were not getting that speed .
A lot of the guns where built on old Martini–Henry actions . I looked at what those little .17 caliber bullets did and decided .22 caliber was my lower limit !

[warren5421]

My grandson got his first deer with a Winchester Model 66 in .44 WCF shooting 34 gr of FFFg. His dad keep the 66 so he uses a Ruger Deerstalker carbine in .44 mag now. It will stop anything in Indiana.

[jonp]

People are foolish.

If you have a .270, .280, .308, .30/06...etc you have all the hunting caliber you need for 98% or more of what we need to kill. Not ideal for big bears or moose but how many people will hunt them? If so, add a .338 or .375 if you are lucky enough to hunt them.

If you have a .223, you have a decent varmint gun.

Two or three bolt guns cover 100% of what you need for hunting. Everything else is superfluous. Learn to shoot and get the job done.

Some states have silly rules that require adding another caliber like the .350 Legend.

Ive had rifles in all kinds of calibers from 17 Rem to 45-70, 6.5 Swede etc. After scratching my head many times i still cant think of much a 308/30-06 cant get done. Recoil sensitive the old 6.5x55 or 7mm Mauser are both good enough.
If i had to narrow it down i'd be comfortable with my 308 and if a rhino or grizzly ended up in my backyard, my 416 Ruger Mag. Not sure what on planet Earth I couldnt cover with those two.
Don mentioned moose. 308 will do it just fine unless you stray north of 1,000lbs then a 30-06 with 200-220gr will get that done.

[1Papalote]

I knew of two Canadians in Terrace, BC who regularly took moose with.............a 32 Winchester Special and 44 magnum. Charlie told me they weren't hard to kill. Of course, the distance was resonable.

[elmacgyver0]

I could hunt a shrew to a T-Rex with what I have in my armory.
Only I don't hunt.

[Gray Fox]

My brother and I met some of those same guys at the range with similar results, except both of us were shooting TC sidelock .54s with round ball over 80 grains of Pyrodex RS. We both had the fine TC tang mouted aperture sights. We shot for over an hour and those guys never came close to our groups with their scoped rifles. They told us they were "getting ready to go Out West" on a guided hunt. Pity their poor guide. GF

[Rapier]

I own a tree farm, have several folks that hunt here and on our state contiguous land permits, 800 acres. It is always interesting to me, the folks and their guns that show up. On one day I have seen a 223 and a 300 Win Mag on the property(s). What is strange to me is because it is in the SE, most every shot is fairly close, but there are fields and power lines if some must create a long shot. I myself, am a wing shooter so.....I try to keep quail and turkeys on the place and kill all hogs and yotes, myself. It all work out and I do not shoot deer, but do not have a problem with folks that do.

[MaryB]

And don't forget-- most of those deer were taken without a scope. I was out at the range one day with my win 94 shooting 3" gongs at 100 yards when a couple showed up to sight in their scoped rifle for deer hunting. They saw me hit a few gongs and asked me how I did that. "How can you hit anything without a scope??" I didn't bother to tell them 3" at 100 yards is not particularly remarkable for a 30-30.

We don't all have young eyes/good eyesight! Without a scope I can't see the target at 100 yards LOL well I can see a blur...

[MaryB]

I used to shoot the old rifles... then had rotator cuff surgery twice on the same shoulder. And an un-repaired tear on the other so I can't switch. So I am a wee bit recoil sensitive. The AR platform offered a good low recoil platform to work with. .223 for small feral hogs, coyotes, prairie dogs... and 6.5 Grendel for 'yotes past 200 yards(common here, shooting over open farm fields in fall) and deer. A larger caliber isn't needed for the hunting I still do. I can shoot the AR rifles all day and only have a little shoulder pain the next day. 20 rounds of 7.62x54r from my type 53 on an Archangel stock and my shoulder HURTS. And the modern stock helps control some recoil versus the old metal butt plate military stock.

Gotta do what you gotta do to keep shooting! If that means semi auto so be it!

[jsizemore]

Back in the day seen a 32H&R mag case necked to 30cal and a 220 gr Match King stuck in the end. Really whacked steel targets at 200 yards.

There was/is a 7mmJI which is a 221 Fireball case necked to 7mm and depending on the twist a 140-180 gr bullet seated.

Both these cartridges are from better than 25 years ago.

Ain't much new out there.

[JimB..]

Wildcatting is a hobby, and new calibers with carefully crafted media reports sell guns. Besides, most Americans moved from what they need to what they want so long ago that they can’t even imagine that there is a difference.

[reddog81]

Lever, Bolt, AR... It's just a different platform. Compare a .30-30 to a new popular cartridge like 350 Legend. Ballistics wise it's basically the same thing just packaged differently. I'm not sure how much of an advantage a 30 round magazine is? I imagine most animals will be running away after 1 or 2 shots have been fired.

[MaryB]

Lever, Bolt, AR... It's just a different platform. Compare a .30-30 to a new popular cartridge like 350 Legend. Ballistics wise it's basically the same thing just packaged differently. I'm not sure how much of an advantage a 30 round magazine is? I imagine most animals will be running away after 1 or 2 shots have been fired.

When you have a sounder of 20+ feral hogs a 30 rounder is handy, same on a pack of 5+ coyotes that have an uncanny ability to crouch or jump just as a bullet is fired so lots of misses and a town of prairie dogs. All cases where shoot fast and try to kill as many as possible is the rule!

[Ed K]

[QUOTE=Wolfdog91;5458702]Thought this was interesting. Personally I love wacky just out there stuff

All cool stuff I agree. Paradigm shift though? Folks have been wildcatting smokeless cartridges for about 100 years. It has been going on constantly. a Paradigm shift is more like a radical, abrupt, shocking change that should result in everyone adopting, climbing on board, and dumping their old ways. I don't see that happening with this stuff.

[Rapier]

There is no reason to not shoot cast on hogs and feral dogs both through an AR. We have had packs of both show up now and then, and both are real pests. Usually dogs are throw outs that pack up and kill small livestock and pets. Wild hogs are just destructive to the exreme.
This is my light hog gun, on left, a 358 MGP w 200 grain cast plain base powder coated. 2,500 fps. It is good for about any hog or dog.