Taurus judge? Thoughts?

[johnsonian09]

My uncle wants to get a judge as a general purpose critter gun. He ran into a big cat last season. (Public land) Local law says no to centerfire cartridges, the exception being for shotguns cartridges. I think this is a grey area he’s betting on legally but his choice.

I don’t think a little .410 slug has the energy for a deer, cat or black bear. But I can’t really say for sure. Never used one. Never had any interest in a judge I thought they were strange. I know the 45colt can carry some good energy in non-cowboy guns. So maybe there’s a strong .410 load that fits the bill?

In my experience, I’d trust a 44bp cap and ball more then the .410.. 3 inch barrel shotgun sounds like it would be really slow velocity to me.


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[Texas by God]

A Rossi Tuffy with its 18" barrel in .410 would be preferable for me. The Judge is a very sorry excuse for a shotgun. Side by side test proves it. The .410 slug is similar to a .45 rb from a muzzleloader- it'll kill deer at close range.

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[Winger Ed.]

I’d trust a 44bp cap and ball more then the .410.. 3 inch barrel shotgun

Without doing a test, I'd think the .44 with BP fires a heavier slug, at faster speeds.
All the .410 ammo I've seen is really meant to shine coming out of a regular length shotgun barrel.
The 3" barrel just doesn't have the length for a burn & acceleration curve to get any speed up.

If it was me, I'd be carrying a 18", 12 ga. full length magazine, pump gun, with the hand grip on it out there.
In that situation: Whatever a .410 can do-- a 12 gauge can do better.

[BLAHUT]

the judge in my opinion was designed as a personal defense gun with a .410 buck load, slug or bird shot for snakes or a .45 colt.
I have seen them shot, with very little effectiveness at very close range.
I believe in what winger ed said to be so true.

[johnsonian09]

This would not be a primary arm. Just a handgun backup for problem critters that weigh more then the old man does. that could occur during an archery deer season. He’s mainly afraid of being reacquainted with a cougar that freaked him out last year because he’s never seen one before.

But yes you’ve confirmed my belief that a judge would be questionable at best for this purpose. 3inches vs 18+ makes a hell of a difference. Even in what would normally be a really powerful- for that given cartridge load.


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[Winger Ed.]

A Judge is probably lighter than a 6 shot revolver in .44Mag or .45Colt with its sort of trim lines and being a 5 shot.
For protection while hunting- I would feel OK with one, preferably a 3", and carry it with fairly hot loaded cast,
.45 Long Colts instead of the .410 slug.

In the area he hunts, it'd be sort of a head scratcher though.
Maybe the Hornady self defense .410s with the 2- OOO balls and a .357, 110JHP might be worth looking into.
At about 20', they make a 3 hole pattern about the size of your hand out of my Bond Derringer.
Shooting them, and a middle of the road loaded, cast, 250 gr .45SWC feels about the same.
That inclines me to believe the Hornadys are getting their speed on up there.

A Judge with .410 shot shells would be a good choice to keep in your tackle box.

Here's something kind of interesting:
All the big cats really prefer to make their attack on large prey from behind, cougars included.

In India, there are workers that have to go on trails through the wilderness areas.
It was a often problem with the last guy in a line getting attacked from behind by a tiger.
They solved the problem by having the last guy in line wear a face (looking) mask with big 'angry' eyes
turned around backwards on his head.

[M-Tecs]

My uncle wants to get a judge as a general purpose critter gun. He ran into a big cat last season. (Public land) Local law says no to centerfire cartridges, the exception being for shotguns cartridges. I think this is a grey area he’s betting on legally but his choice.



Sounds more like a misunderstanding of the local law??? So no one can carry or shoot a centerfire rifle or handgun in that area????? While there are shotgun zones and zones that restrict certain cartridges during specific hunting season, I am not aware of any of those restriction that apply to self-defense carry. Where is this?

[fastdadio]

The Judge has always confused me. It's not really a good .45 or short shotgun. My choice for a big cat at close range would be a 1911 stoked with some stout loads, and a good knife for back up.
As M-Tecs stated, Carry for self defense falls under different laws than the game laws for hunting.

[Wag]

When my BiL passed away several years ago, I inherited his T-Judge. Occasionally, I break it out and take it to the range but I don't think of it as a very good revolver. Shooting .410 is dicey at best, even for the 000 shot shells. But he had the idea that all of these novelty defense ammo types were worthwhile and he bought about every type he could find. None of them ever patterned well enough to give a killing shot so I felt it was an expensive waste of money.

I also qualify with it every two years for my CCW permit so I can have the .45 caliber listed on my permit for revolver.

It's too bulky to carry concealed, though, so I'm not sure why I even bother, really. Just something to have, I guess. I do have a derringer in .45 Colt, though so maybe it could prove useful to have it on the permit.

--Wag--

[lar45]

I think Federal has 4 000 loads in 410 for the Judge.
I load 4 000 buck with 2400. For close range it would seam to be a lot of fire power in a small-ish package.

[johnsonian09]

He is hunting state land in eastern ct. a very anti gun state that is densely populated even in the woods. So dense that deer don’t spook from scent there. Vs NH/Maine they seem to spook if they smell you 2 miles away.

No centerfire anything is allowed there. With the exception being shotguns. Their seasons are archery, shotgun+ muzzleloader, and then just muzzleloader.

If he was hunting private land he would be okay with centerfire. But he’s not.

Winger, I will tell him about the face mask thing. That makes perfect sense to me


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[M-Tecs]

That is while hunting. The laws for open or concealed carry are different than hunting laws but a permit is required for carry. If he wants the judge as a backup while hunting that as you stated that is legally highly questionable. Mountain lions are not considered to be hard to kill. Even a birdshot load at close range from a 12 or 20 gauge will far surpass the Judge in performance.

[Electrod47]

I'v always been a bit of a 410 fanatic. Not for any grand special purpose. "Just because". Anyway, owning as many, sometimes goofy, examples of 410 launchers. I gave my Judge away, it disappointed me so much. Keyhole bullets at 10 paces, wrist wrenching shot shell firing. So Long and good riddance.

[Daekar]

The judge is a bad gun and Taurus should feel bad for selling it. It's a terrible shotgun and a terrible revolver, you can take a look at Paul Harrell's video on it.

[Bent Ramrod]

A friend had a Judge. He threw an aluminum pop can 15 yards, loaded the gun with .410 shotshells and handed it to me. I emptied the gun at the can, raising a splendid cloud of dust all around it.

When I went to pick up the can, it had exactly one pellet hole in it. From the dust cloud, it looked to be centered in the pattern, but not much happened in the way of execution.

I think the original idea was for something that could be used to repel boarders for those living in apartment houses with cardboard walls. Outdoors, it’s just an expensive noisemaker.

[Hannibal]

If the sole purpose of considering this revolver is to keep from being in violation of game laws I'd call fish and game or whatever the regulating authority is in the area and explain what you're trying to do and why before spending the money and possibly being in violation anyway.
I'm guessing a centerfire cartridge firing a single projectile is going to be a violation if they find you with it anyway.

[Winger Ed.]

He ran into a big cat last season.

Years ago, a life long friend used to go on guided hunts in Colorado almost every year.
About 20 years ago, he was on one, and heard a big cat scream.
Later on, back at the guide's camp, he told the head guy what he'd heard. He was told, "No way there is any cougars here".

The next day, in a tower blind, he heard it again. Then several minutes later, again, and much closer.
He didn't walk back to camp that day. He stayed in the tower until one of the guys came and picked him up.

He told the guide about it, and the guide said,

"When you heard it the first time, the cougar was letting you know you were in his territory.
The second time, he was telling you to get out of my territory.
The third time it was saying-- you SHOULD HAVE gotten out of my territory".

[buckwheatpaul]

My uncle wants to get a judge as a general purpose critter gun. He ran into a big cat last season. (Public land) Local law says no to centerfire cartridges, the exception being for shotguns cartridges. I think this is a grey area he’s betting on legally but his choice.

I don’t think a little .410 slug has the energy for a deer, cat or black bear. But I can’t really say for sure. Never used one. Never had any interest in a judge I thought they were strange. I know the 45colt can carry some good energy in non-cowboy guns. So maybe there’s a strong .410 load that fits the bill?

In my experience, I’d trust a 44bp cap and ball more then the .410.. 3 inch barrel shotgun sounds like it would be really slow velocity to me.


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When I was looking I shot a Judge and a S & W Governor. The quality is much better on the Governor and the accuracy is better as well. But the S & W does cost more but is more useable for me as you have 6 shots vs. 5 shot. The Governor shoots 45 ACP, 45 Colt, and 45 Scofield as well. Moon clips also work with the Governor. I believe the Governor is pretty much to the same wgt as well. My Governor goes with me in the tractors and 4 wheelers and have never failed to do the job!

If there is downside the Governor will only shoot 2-1/2" .410 shells but the self defense loads are awesome!

[BLAHUT]

Call the state game warden where he is headed and ask what they say is local law, for carry ??

[Cargo]

I would definitely point him towards the Governor. It's lighter, cut for moon clips to use .45acp, carries six instead of five, wider range of aftermarket grips, throws a tighter pattern and the difference in quality is night and day. I've ran some rather warm .45lc through mine and I wouldn't consider doing that with a Judge. Yes I've shot a Judge and that's the reason I spent the extra money on the Governor.

[Dusty Bannister]

Some members have had problems with the Judge.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?357729-Final-Exploding-Taurus-Judge-Thread-With-Probable-Solution&highlight=Judge+blow

[nhithaca]

I bought a blued 3" Judge w/ a 2.5" cylinder a number of years ago not too long after they came out, mostly out of novelty. Have shot it a number of times with both standard load 45 Colt shells and various types of 410 shells. NO high pressure Colt loads should ever be used in the standard Judge. Bird shot makes donuts in the targets at about 10 yards or more, buck shot prints slightly high and centered at 10 yards and covers about a 6" circle, and 45 Colt lead bullets both factory and reloads are dismal for groups even at 15-20 yards. This may be due to the lack of real sights.

Dropped a pin gauge through the cylinder throats and the barrel. All 5 cylinders are @ 0.458" or better! Barrel measures @ 0.450-451" for the bore and about 0.459"+ using a lead slug to measure the actual rifled bore size. So standard 451/452 bullets are just skidding down the bore. Bought some of Matt's hollow base wad cutters and have loaded up some using a fast powder to standard 45 Colt pressure loads. Will report what happens after I try these. Suspect that they will most certainly shoot better than the original loads tried. Also would hate to get hit with these big flat nosed slugs even at 600-650 FPS speeds.

[nhithaca]

Need to add a couple of things:
1) After the first try at using 45 Colt loads I did load up some soft 300 grain re-sized 45-70 bullets to try. These did work fairly well because I think there was more shank length and they were realy soft lead. This lead me to try the hollow base wad cutters.

2) I carry this revolver in my pickup all the time and keep it loaded with (in order) 1- #4 bird shot, 2- 410 00 buck shot loads by Federal, and 2- of the 45 Colt wad cutters.

[johnsonian09]

I called a warden in ct. basicly if he’s hunting. He shouldn’t be carrying any handgun that’s not a 22 or smaller rimfire.

Prima facie hunting in ct requires the hunting implement to be loaded. So essentially if his crossbow or bow has an arrow nocked / nocked + cocked then he can’t have a loaded gun on his person.

Basically he can have any self defense gun loaded in a holster on his person. But would have to unload it and put it away in a backpack or something preferably with a trigger lock on it, before he cocks and loads the crossbow. Because that would be possession of a loaded handgun while hunting.

Warden also said it’s unlikely to be prosecuted in a true self defense from animal shooting. But considered highly suspicious and obviously if your caught poaching your in a world of trouble.

Wow


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[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My uncle wants to get a judge as a general purpose critter gun. He ran into a big cat last season. (Public land) Local law says no to centerfire cartridges, the exception being for shotguns cartridges. I think this is a grey area he’s betting on legally but his choice.

I don’t think a little .410 slug has the energy for a deer, cat or black bear. But I can’t really say for sure. Never used one. Never had any interest in a judge I thought they were strange. I know the 45colt can carry some good energy in non-cowboy guns. So maybe there’s a strong .410 load that fits the bill?

In my experience, I’d trust a 44bp cap and ball more then the .410.. 3 inch barrel shotgun sounds like it would be really slow velocity to me.


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I would highly recommend for anyone to google "Taurus judge explodes" before purchasing one.

The S & W Governor is a better and safer choice...but lots more money.

[Daekar]

I called a warden in ct. basicly if he’s hunting. He shouldn’t be carrying any handgun that’s not a 22 or smaller rimfire.

Prima facie hunting in ct requires the hunting implement to be loaded. So essentially if his crossbow or bow has an arrow nocked / nocked + cocked then he can’t have a loaded gun on his person.

Basically he can have any self defense gun loaded in a holster on his person. But would have to unload it and put it away in a backpack or something preferably with a trigger lock on it, before he cocks and loads the crossbow. Because that would be possession of a loaded handgun while hunting.

Warden also said it’s unlikely to be prosecuted in a true self defense from animal shooting. But considered highly suspicious and obviously if your caught poaching your in a world of trouble.

Wow


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I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I believe if there really was a danger of wild cat attack, I would work out a way to conceal a real pistol while hunting, asinine laws be damned. I'd like to see the politicians who passed that law be informed that their bodyguards had a choice between 22lr or unloaded guns while on duty.

[stubshaft]

Looks great on TV, but in reality, it is a pathetic excuse for a pistol.

[6string]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't care for the Taurus Judge, or the whole concept of the design. It's a pathetic excuse for a shotgun, and even worse as a centerfire revolver. You'd be hard pressed to intentionally combine such bad ideas to make a poor shooting revolver. That it is bulky and balances badly in the hand doesn't help.
Then, add the usual mediocre Taurus quality and it adds up to quite a dud.
But, lots of folks I see at the ranges have them and think their "cool", like somehow it's a magical combination of a Dirty Harry revolver and a 12 ga riot gun. Go figure!!

Here's something few people are probably aware of. USFA, back in the day when they were on the top of their game building their excellent SAA revolvers, they got the idea to build a single action revolver in 45/410 configuration. They used to administer a forum on their website, where they announced their plans. They were fully expecting a hugely positive response. Surprise!! Everyone hated the idea before it was even released. The company president wrote a statement admonishing all the members for failing to see the "wisdom" of his vision.
Next thing you know, they introduced their 22 "ZIP" gun (horrible product), discontinued their single actions, and promptly went out of business.
What a shame!

[M-Tecs]

I've never owned one but I have shot several. With shot the patterns were very large for the distance with a donut hole in the center. Accuracy from the 45 Colt at best was poor and that is being somewhat generous. I never fired or witnessed buckshot being fired out of one so no comment.

https://www.gun-tests.com/shortshots/patterning-the-taurus-judge-2/

[Wag]

With shot the patterns were very large for the distance with a donut hole in the center.

That makes sense given the rifling in the barrel. Shot is going to spin away from the center.

--Wag--

[FergusonTO35]

How about a cap and ball revolver?

[Ramjet-SS]

Novelty gun but better than nothing. 2.5” 00 buckmis three pellets it should discourage most animals. That said one determined to make a meal out of you that gun will not be enough to put them down except up close and personal
like almost contact. Those instances would probably be really rare. I had one for playing around with and honestly even the buckshot loads from a 2.5” would barely penetrate thicker plastic target. The BBs stuck in it. Again I think it’s an ok small rodent dispatcher but anything larger …….. better than a sharp stick

[John Taylor]

I always thought the Judge was a sales gimmick, Not good for scatter shot and not good as a 45 Colt with the long jump to the rifling. The old H&R handy gun would be better with its longer barrel and smooth bore. I asked an ATF agent about short barreled shotguns and was told "if it was manufactured without a butt stock it us not a shotgun". So these new pistols with smooth bores are legal but not practical. A Howdah pistol might be a good idea. If it was made before 1899 it is not a firearm. I had one in the shop several years back in 577 Snider.

[Winger Ed.]

[QUOTE=John Ta I asked an ATF agent about short barreled shotguns and was told "if it was manufactured without a butt stock it us not a shotgun". [/QUOTE]

Like asking the IRS for tax advice--- they aren't responsible if they give you wrong answers.

My understanding- unless it has very recently changed is that these handguns have to have at least some rifling
to not be considered as an under length/illegal shotgun.
My fairly new Bond derringer has rifling for about the last 1/2" of the barrel to meet that requirement.

[FergusonTO35]

We sell the Shockwave at my side job shop. A smoothbore handgun is not covered under NFA if it has an OAL of at least 26", even if it is based on a shotgun design. This is why these guns always have a long birdshead grip to bring the OAL to 26". The original Handi Gun still had an OAL under that, and so is considered Any Other Weapon under NFA with a $5.00 stamp.

[Bigslug]

Run a .22 Magnum revolver.

Run FROM anything Taurus.

Pumas being ambush predators, if they decide you're food, you're unlikely to see it coming. For the most part, if you aren't a deer, they won't mess with you. Most of the attacks that have occurred here in SoCal have been probable cases of "mistaken identity", where the lion had what could be called a "kitten pounce" response and then let go once it decided the human wasn't food. Our biggest concern as hunters is that we are sneaking around in the dark trying to get to our hides before daybreak, and this is the cat's primary hunting time - and you're roughly deer-sized. If it's a case of a staredown or territoriality, a loud shot across the bow will likely convince kitty to take his sensitive ears elsewhere. For the most part though, they will not willingly engage us. A .22 Mag with solids will have adequate penetration if it comes to it; is better than poking kitty in the eyes with your thumbs; and from what you say, would seem to be legal.

[Bmi48219]

I’ve seen and shot several shorter barrel versions of Judges; using slugs, buck & bird shot and LC’s. Try as I may I can’t think of any unique redeeming qualities. QC was unimpressive. In fact the front sight fell off two new out-of-the-box samples I tried.
It would be useful if I was sitting in the driver’s seat defending the ownership of my vehicle from an up close thief, but so would a lot of handguns. I can think of several other choices for fending off a hungry feline.
I guess if it was free I’d take one, only because I load LC. But definitely a Last Ditch defense prospect.

[FergusonTO35]

I would love to see Taurus come out with a .45 Colt only Judge with appropriate length cylinder, it would be a sweet piece.

[Handloader109]

Get him a Keltec Cp33. 33 rounds of 22lr in the magazine. It would be totally legal and it gives him more ammo to shoot than he could ever use. The judge is almost worthless. And I'd rather put 5 or 6 22lr bullets at the cat than miss it with the entire judge loads.

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