Any Reason for +P Ammo [Archive]

M-Tecs

09-11-2022, 09:49 PM

HumptyDumpty

09-11-2022, 10:00 PM

Which round are you referring to? Seventy-five fps doesn't sound like enough of a difference to even qualify as plus-p. Additionally, not all cartridges actually have a an official plus-p specification. That is, an organization like SAAMI hasn't accepted and published any sort of plus-p pressure limit. So it can just be marketing hype, but the load may exceed what is considered "normal" among manufacturers, or even the SAAMI/CIP pressure specifications. Whether or not all this is worthwhile is difficult to say; do you need a heavy-for-caliber bullet, with minimal velocity loss? Are you concerned about proper expansion of your hollow or soft points at current velocities? There is no universal answer. I shoot a great deal of 45 Auto, and found myself desiring to push its' performance envelope. Plus-p only got me an extra 2kpsi to play with, so I upgraded to 45 Super, while modifying the gun in such a manner as to technically be capable of handling 460 Rowland. I've accomplished what I wanted at somewhere around an estimated 30k psi, which would qualify as plus-p for 45 Super, though no such standard exists. Meanwhile, I am far below the 460 Rowland's pressure limit of 40k psi. If those kinds of project appeal to you, then loading to plus-p specs (or buying plus-p ammo) may be the right thing to do.

44MAG#1

09-11-2022, 10:02 PM

Before this goes oblique. I am talking about +P in a given cartridge. Such as the 38 Special, 9MM, 45 Auto etc. Not using a new cartridge running at much higher pressure being called +P. I am aware that the 357 Mag is +P compared to the 38 Special but that IS NOT what I am referring to.

Soundguy

09-11-2022, 10:25 PM

I, for whatever reason, have about 10x the 38 brass vs my 357 brass. I will often load up 38+p for my 357's. It's less stress than a full 357..but more umph than the stock 38.

HumptyDumpty

09-11-2022, 10:29 PM

I, for whatever reason, have about 10x the 38 brass vs my 357 brass. I will often load up 38+p for my 357's. It's less stress than a full 357..but more umph than the stock 38.

I'm in a similar situation with 327 Federal. I've found that most of what I want can be accomplished with 32 S&W Long, or 32 H&R brass.

Larry Gibson

09-11-2022, 10:33 PM

Apparently, from recent chronograph postings, the velocity of 38 SPL +P has been "dumbed down". Back in the mid '70s when the PD I was with went to the "FBI load" by Winchester it was touted as giving 100 fp more in a 4" barrel 38 SPL revolver. Sure enough, that's what it did running 930 fps out of the 4" M15s we carried and 950 fps out of my 5" M15 (my previous service revolver). The photo is a box of that original issue ammunition. I have pressure tested that ammunition on several occasions and it consistently gives 18,000 psi +/-. Most standard factory 158 LRN or SWC run 800 - 820 fps out of 4" barreled 38 SPL revolvers and run 14 - 16,000 psi. My own "+P" 38 SPL duplication load I use in my 5" M15 and 2 1/5" M19 is a soft cast (40-1 alloy) 358156 HP over 5.5 gr Unique. It runs 1015 fps at 20,000 psi which is the SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL +P cartridge.

The reason for +P ammunition is supposed to be increased velocity and enhanced terminal effectiveness.

BLAHUT

09-11-2022, 10:40 PM

what are you trying to accomplish with the round? just speed ? accuracy ? stopping power ? target? competition ? hunting ?
for accuracy you would need to try 1/10 gr increment's to find the best load? lube ? reg primer? mag primer? your gun will tell you what it likes?
a lot depends on the bullet ?

35remington

09-11-2022, 11:38 PM

Save with jacketed bullets I see no great need for Plus P in 38 as I get 910 fps with 158 grain lead bullet handloads of standard pressure. This in a four inch and 810 fps in 1.875” aluminum snubbies. This will do what I need and it meets the threshold of what I consider service level pistol capability.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 06:47 AM

Maybe. History is a very good teacher. In the late 1800's cartridges like the 450 Adams and the 38 Long Colt were adopted by the British and US militaries. One was 45 Cal and the other 38 Cal but they both had velocities in the high 600's to low 700's. Actual combat usage proved them to be "anemic" at best. Same for the other cartridges of the time that were under 750 fps.

In the 1970's and early 1980's the 357 with 125 grain bullets developed an almost legendary reputation for effectively stopping the bad guys.

In more recent times New York City or transit police required a 38 Special load that earned the well-deserved reputation as the "Widow Maker" for its lack of stopping power. I don't remember if it was a 158 grain LRN or a 200 grain LRN.

The unanswerable question is what point does the load becomes "anemic"?

Personally I want a 900 fps minimum.

A shooting buddy has a nice Webley Municipal Police model chambered in .450 Adams:

https://rewebster.org/pics/webley_mp.jpg

Last year we worked up a self-defense load for that sad, stubby, "anemic" little cartridge. We settled on Mihec's 225 grain HBWC "manstopper" bullet at just over 600 f/s. That load had more than enough penetration to keep the FBI happy and here's how it stacks up against some benchmark loads in terms of MacPherson wound mass:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_45_225_600.png (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html)

With the right bullet, the .450 Adams has more penetration and about the same MacPherson wound mass as the classic "FBI Load." It's no .357 Magnum. But I wouldn't call it "anemic."

Savvy Jack

09-12-2022, 07:14 AM

Do you see +P ammunition being used in anything but hollow points or SWC's?

Once upon a time it was meant to add terminal performance, as Larry mentioned. Now days it seems to be nothing more than a promotional gimmick!

Velocity is needed for a specific hollowpoint design to expand as designed...which seems to be where the +P comes from with smaller caliber HP's

Back in the day it was said that a 45 Colt needed 700fps to fully pernitrate the broadside of a horse. Using soft lead, this .45 cal will mushroom like a hollowpoint.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 07:22 AM

pettypace

09-12-2022, 08:21 AM

My revelation came after I downloaded VIRGEL. While giving close scrutiny to it and its ability to tell me what I could do with various calibers and bullet weights and types I was amazed to see that once a certain velocity was reached going over it even
in a great amount did not increase Defense Wound Mass.

VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) calculates "Defense Wound Mass" as recommended by Duncan MacPherson in his book Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics & the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=bullet+penetration+macpherson&i=stripbooks&crid=I3XQ0PV5YKAS&sprefix=bullet+penetration+macpherson%2Cstripbooks %2C182&ref=nb_sb_noss). Simply stated, the calculation ignores the last 3" of any penetration (where the bullet is judged to be going too slow to do full damage) and it ignores any penetration over 15" (where the the bullet is assumed to have already exited the target). VIRGEL also calculates "Big Game Wound Mass" for the entire penetration path.

We could argue about whether we should or shouldn't count the last 3" of wound mass or whether we should stop counting wound mass after 15" or, say, 18" of bullet penetration. But I figure if we're arguing over how much wound mass to count we're way ahead of arguing over velocity or energy or bullet weight or caliber.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 08:37 AM

VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) calculates "Defense Wound Mass" as recommended by Duncan MacPherson in his book Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics & the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=bullet+penetration+macpherson&i=stripbooks&crid=I3XQ0PV5YKAS&sprefix=bullet+penetration+macpherson%2Cstripbooks %2C182&ref=nb_sb_noss). Simply stated, the calculation ignores the last 3" of any penetration (where the bullet is judged to be going too slow to do full damage) and it ignores any penetration over 15" (where the the bullet is assumed to have already exited the target). VIRGEL also calculates "Big Game Wound Mass" for the entire penetration path.

We could argue about whether we should or shouldn't count the last 3" of wound mass or whether we should stop counting wound mass after 15" or, say, 18" of bullet penetration. But I figure if we're arguing over how much wound mass to count we're way ahead of arguing over velocity or energy or bullet weight or caliber.

Now keep in mind my knowledge level is very low compared to most shooters and experimenters so please keep that in mind.
I always thought that the Quicker (harder) a bullet such as a Mushrooming bullet hit a given medium the quicker and the more violent it expands. So shouldn't the Defense Wound Channel start sooner and be larger the higher the velocity just due to the quicker and larger expanded diameter of the bullet in the Defense Wound Channel even disregarding the last 3 inches?
Keep in mind I am not taking about some extremely fragile bullet that could explode and give only a surface would but a good designed bullet.
Do others see what I am missing? If you do, keeping in mind my mind, what is it.
I have tried it with other calibers too and they parallel each other.

cainttype

09-12-2022, 09:01 AM

It’s obvious that “VIRGEL” limits Defensive Wound Mass calculations by penetration. The larger differences in calculations for “Big Game Wound Mass” show a full wound track potential including the extra penetration.
That it disregards the last 3” in DWM is good info… Thanks, pettypace, for clearing that up.

It seems like the calculations don’t differentiate between the wound track beginning with HPs, which in reality with HPs that work as intended isn’t too hard to overlook because they do begin to open almost immediately as target medium is impacted….

Seeing “VIRGEL” as a fairly straightforward, simple calculator I don’t expect it should/can nuance all the minutia that people might ponder.

Lastly, the “violent expansion” idea seems to focus somewhat on the “Temporary Cavity”.
At typical handgun impact velocities that temporary cavity has practically no real value, but at higher rifle speeds the cavitation effect of projectiles would be drastic.
Low speed loads with “VIRGEL” should reflect the actual tissue “crushed” by the projectile to accurate predict wound channel volume.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:08 AM

cainttype

09-12-2022, 09:28 AM

So as it has been explained any velocity over the bottom line is a waste in Self Defense situations.
In VIRGEL with a 158 grain Mushroom bullet a velocity of 403 fps still gives the same Defense Wound Mass DWM as the velocity of over 1500 fps. So as long as we push the 158 grain over that bare minimum we should be okay in a defensive situation which should be quite, low recoiling and fast back on target type of load.

Not at all…. I’m just saying how I see this “VIRGEL” calculator reach it’s answers. It’s obviously NOT a program that was designed to deal with an abundance of variables.
Disregarding the last 3” of penetration is nothing I’d agree with, especially if I broke the spine in the last 2”, for instance.
All the various formulas have weak spots because they don’t deal well with multiple variables…. You decide what’s important, and you go with what makes you comfortable.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 09:33 AM

Now keep in mind my knowledge level is very low compared to most shooters and experimenters so please keep that in mind.
I always thought that the Quicker (harder) a bullet such as a Mushrooming bullet hit a given medium the quicker and the more violent it expands. So shouldn't the Defense Wound Channel start sooner and be larger the higher the velocity just due to the quicker and larger expanded diameter of the bullet in the Defense Wound Channel even disregarding the last 3 inches?
Keep in mind I am not taking about some extremely fragile bullet that could explode and give only a surface would but a good designed bullet.
Do others see what I am missing? If you do, keeping in mind my mind, what is it.
I have tried it with other calibers too and they parallel each other.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Maybe reference to a diagram would help. Here's Fackler's "wound profile" for the classic "FBI Load."

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_38_fbi.png

For "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) simply calculates the volume of the "Permanent Cavity" using the length of the penetration path (minus the last 3") and the expanded diameter of the bullet and then multiplies by the density of tissue and also by a "nose factor" that depends on the shape of the bullet.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:36 AM

Not at all…. I’m just saying how I see this “VIRGEL” calculator reach it’s answers. It’s obviously NOT a program that was designed to deal with an abundance of variables.
Disregarding the last 3” of penetration is nothing I’d agree with, especially if I broke the spine in the last 2”, for instance.
All the various formulas have weak spots because they don’t deal well with multiple variables…. You decide what’s important, and you go with what makes you comfortable.

Keeping in mind my mind.
That is a good answer. I am just trying to see how that going from just over 400 fps to over 1500 fps still gives the same DWM.
AND I guess it shows no Meplat unless it is wadcutter is not much better than a Round Nose.
So anything between Round Nose and Wadcutter is really neigh on not worthwhile
Whether it be a .200 Meplat or a .340 Meplat and those in-between.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:41 AM

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Maybe reference to a diagram would help. Here's Fackler's "wound profile" for the classic "FBI Load."

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_38_fbi.png

For "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) simply calculates the volume of the "Permanent Cavity" using the length of the penetration path (minus the last 3") and the expanded diameter of the bullet and then multiplies by the density of tissue and also by a "nose factor" that depends on the shape of the bullet.

So with a bullet expanding quicker and with more violence will not destroy more tissue hence a larger permanent wound channel? So if a 158 grain bullet at 800 fps does X amount of damage the same bullet traveling 1500 will do no more damage?
That is logical.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:46 AM

I guess what makes it hard for me to understand in country simple ways it's like saying if I drop a 5 pound weight from a height of 1 foot on my toe it will hurt the same as if I drop it from 4 feet?

Soundguy

09-12-2022, 10:34 AM

I'm in a similar situation with 327 Federal. I've found that most of what I want can be accomplished with 32 S&W Long, or 32 H&R brass.

Funny you mention that, I do the same as well. I have guns in 32 long, a couple in 32hr and 1 in 327fed. Most of my 32 loadings are 32hr or long.

cainttype

09-12-2022, 11:12 AM

I guess what makes it hard for me to understand in country simple ways it's like saying if I drop a 5 pound weight from a height of 1 foot on my toe it will hurt the same as if I drop it from 4 feet?

The piece of puzzle you might be overlooking is that in Defensive Wound Mass this VIRGEL calculator only uses the first 15” of penetration, minus 3”, if I understood pettypace’s description on how it works.
If your “slow” option delivers 15”, then it is basically equal to the ”fast” option’s first 15” even though the higher velocity projectile might continue much farther… That’s the calculator’s parameters, and changes accordingly with the Game Wound Mass by including the extra penetration that was ignored by the Defensive Wound Mass calculator.

VIRGEL assumes both bullets are of equal diameter, apparently, which can be expected from a fairly simple calculator.

wilecoyote

09-12-2022, 11:17 AM

I guess what makes it hard for me to understand in country simple ways it's like saying if I drop a 5 pound weight from a height of 1 foot on my toe it will hurt the same as if I drop it from 4 feet?
beyond a certain height, it is called uniformly accelerated motion. if your parachute does not open, it does not matter if you fall from 3000 or 500 meters, and don't matter if you weight 100 or 200 lbs.: you dig the same hole in the ground goin' down at the same (around 260meter/second, more or less) speed _

BUT, country way, I dropped a K98k bare wooden stock on my barefoot toenail from a height of 1 foot: count 5 sec. after, and I thought I was going to have a heart attack_
I'm happy it was not the full rifle, and not from 6 feet, but I cursed, lost the nail and I limped for long time anyway.
from 3inches height, same stock, I would have cursed, but without being crippled_

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 11:42 AM

The piece of puzzle you might be overlooking is that in Defensive Wound Mass this VIRGEL calculator only uses the first 15” of penetration, minus 3”, if I understood pettypace’s description on how it works.
If your “slow” option delivers 15”, then it is basically equal to the ”fast” option’s first 15” even though the higher velocity projectile might continue much farther… That’s the calculator’s parameters, and changes accordingly with the Game Wound Mass by including the extra penetration that was ignored by the Defensive Wound Mass calculator.

VIRGEL assumes both bullets are of equal diameter, apparently, which can be expected from a fairly simple calculator.

I understand the 15 inch thing well.
What I would like to comprehend is at higher velocity wouldn't the bullet open quicker and be a larger diameter and wouldn't that cause a bigger permanent wound channel through the 15 inches?? If not my idea of just getting as low as one can go velocity wise and still operate the gun would be the way to go???? Expecially in a revolver.

M-Tecs

09-12-2022, 11:45 AM

But I wouldn't call it "anemic."

Not my term or judgement. It was the term used by the Brits to describe it actual battlefield performance. The .450 Adams was a British black powder centrefire revolver cartridge initially used in converted Beaumont–Adams revolvers using 13 grains of BP under a 225 grain LRN bullet.

cainttype

09-12-2022, 12:43 PM

I understand the 15 inch thing well.
What I would like to comprehend is at higher velocity wouldn't the bullet open quicker and be a larger diameter and wouldn't that cause a bigger permanent wound channel through the 15 inches?? If not my idea of just getting as low as one can go velocity wise and still operate the gun would be the way to go???? Expecially in a revolver.

You can only cram so much peanut butter in a jar…. Data variables in a simple calculator, in this example.
It appears “VIRGEL” does not differentiate between HP vs HP, SWC vs SWC, or any other form against a similar design. It apparently assumes a set diameter for each type/caliber bullet and applies it universally… not really surprising for a “simple” calculator.
That said, it obviously doesn’t recognize an HP with a reputation for failure to expand from one with a stellar reputation for reliable performance, either… It sees every “guess”-timate in simpler terms.
I’m not aware of any perfect formula for predicting terminal results, so people chose the ones they favor when they need to.

cainttype

09-12-2022, 12:51 PM

If your “low velocity” load reliably creates a wound channel you’re satisfied with and surpasses your needs/wants in penetration, then by all means keep it and enjoy the controllability if it makes you comfortable.
I could kill barn rats with a 30-06, but my Diana .177 air rifle never fails…. Seems like more than enough to me. :)

pettypace

09-12-2022, 01:05 PM

It appears “VIRGEL” does not differentiate between HP vs HP, SWC vs SWC, or any other form against a similar design. It apparently assumes a set diameter for each type/caliber bullet and applies it universally…

No. VIRGEL doesn't make any assumptions about bullet diameter. Bullet nose shape, diameter, weight, and velocity are all input values upon which the calculated outputs of bullet penetration and wound mass depend.

Try it here. (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html)

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 01:45 PM

You can only cram so much peanut butter in a jar…. Data variables in a simple calculator, in this example.
It appears “VIRGEL” does not differentiate between HP vs HP, SWC vs SWC, or any other form against a similar design. It apparently assumes a set diameter for each type/caliber bullet and applies it universally… not really surprising for a “simple” calculator.
That said, it obviously doesn’t recognize an HP with a reputation for failure to expand from one with a stellar reputation for reliable performance, either… It sees every “guess”-timate in simpler terms.
I’m not aware of any perfect formula for predicting terminal results, so people chose the ones they favor when they need to.

So my understanding is VIRGEL is a program that really just skims the surface of a much deeper pool of situations and considerations in the determining what actually is lethal and debilitating.
That there are many more things that Can make what we know invalid or valid depending on how we use it?
An XTP may at a certain velocity be better than a Sierra and a Speer may be better than the other two.
Cast bullets the same thing. A hard bullet isn't the same as a very soft bullet and a hollow point FN cast soft may be actually better than some jacketed? A hollow point wadcutter may be the best thing since the automobile?

TurnipEaterDown

09-12-2022, 02:07 PM

I know almost nothing of this VIRGEL program.
However, after years of coaching people through problem solving, I will say that it is Critical that you understand underlying assumptions and constraints (whether you enter them or not) when you use an analytical model.
I myself sniff something very simplistic in this modeling from what little I have seen displayed.

We all know that velocity at impact affects expansion characteristics of bullets. If you push an FMJ fast enough into a resistant enough media, it will violently expand. If you push a varmit bullet slow enough it acts as an FMJ.

I don't see anything in this discussion about performance boundaries or expansion thresholds for expanding bullets here, so I just think that the tool isn't really telling some people in this thread what they want to know. I suspect that the tool being used to illustrate several points in discussion above is deficient in being able to do so.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 02:12 PM

So with a bullet expanding quicker and with more violence will not destroy more tissue hence a larger permanent wound channel? So if a 158 grain bullet at 800 fps does X amount of damage the same bullet traveling 1500 will do no more damage?
That is logical.

Let's look at another Fackler wound profile. Here's a .357 Magnum 125 grain soft point at almost 1400 f/s:

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_357_125JSP.png

And here's the FBI Load from a previous post:

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_38_fbi.png

What's the difference? Well, I suppose, like your foot, you could say that the .357 Magnum "hurts" more. But there are other more quantitative differences in Fackler's profiles: The .357 Magnum expands to a greater diameter and penetrates deeper. That combination of wider and deeper wound channel means that the .357 Magnum crushes more tissue than the vaunted FBI Load.

I wish I could tell you that VIRGEL can easily and accurately calculate the "Defense Wound Mass" for that .357 Magnum load. But, for reasons unknown, VIRGEL wildly under-estimates the penetration of this load. And given the choice between the measured penetration from a competent and trusted source (like Fackler) and VIRGEL's estimated penetration, I have to go with the measurement. So, I fake VIRGEL into calculating the correct wound mass by increasing the weight until VIRGEL finally displays the correct penetration of 14". With that done, here's the benchmark comparison:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_MSH_71_185_1395.png

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 02:26 PM

[QUOTE=TurnipEaterDown;5457558]I know almost nothing of this VIRGEL program.
However, after years of coaching people through problem solving, I will say that it is Critical that you understand underlying assumptions and constraints (whether you enter them or not) when you use an analytical model.
I myself sniff something very simplistic in this modeling from what little I have seen displayed.

We all know that velocity at impact affects expansion characteristics of bullets. If you push an FMJ fast enough into a resistant enough media, it will violently expand. If you push a varmit bullet slow enough it acts as an FMJ.

I don't see anything in this discussion about performance boundaries or expansion thresholds for expanding bullets here, so I just think that the tool isn't really telling some people in this thread what they want to know. I suspect that the tool being used to illustrate several points in discussion above is deficient in being able to do so.[/QUOTE

I see. But the water is still muddy for the most part. Very muddy in places.

cainttype

09-12-2022, 02:36 PM

So my understanding is VIRGEL is a program that really just skims the surface of a much deeper pool of situations and considerations in the determining what actually is lethal and debilitating.
That there are many more things that Can make what we know invalid or valid depending on how we use it?
An XTP may at a certain velocity be better than a Sierra and a Speer may be better than the other two.
Cast bullets the same thing. A hard bullet isn't the same as a very soft bullet and a hollow point FN cast soft may be actually better than some jacketed? A hollow point wadcutter may be the best thing since the automobile?

Every formula or calculator predicting wounding capability or potential typically only “skims the surface”. They all work with minimum variables.
At typical “pistol” velocities tissue “crush”, and where it’s applied, determines lethality. Destroying vital tissue incapacitates and leads to death.
The “shock” assumption held by many because of pretty pictures of temporary cavities is NOT a killer, regardless of what some magazine/book authors might lead others to believe, either through deception or ignorance.
The cavitation effects of typical high velocity (rifle) rounds is different than the temp cavity of a handgun because it destroys tissue instead of simply creating a “stretch cavity” that closes after the initial impact, clearly visible in the pretty photos from ballistic gelatin.

I don’t know of any calculator or algorithms that accurately predict terminal performance in a variety of circumstances, including a variety of variables.
If someone wants to really know what some combination has the potential of, I’d suggest testing it on various mediums themselves to make observational conclusions… Short of that, we pick and choose calculators and formulas more as indicators of potential, rather than solid performance predictors.
All the calculators and formulas are “helpful references”… That’s it.
I can think of a dozen different 9MM 115 JHPs that all perform differently, but not a single calculator/formula that can predict anything exactly that applies to them all… That’s done by real, hands-on testing.

M-Tecs

09-12-2022, 02:56 PM

Simulations or calculator models may or may not reflect reality. I like to base my opinions on reality, so I tend to put more faith data like this https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power or any of the other studies that are based on actual historical data from actual shootings.

More food for thought

http://chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_stopping_power.htm

Daekar

09-12-2022, 02:59 PM

Lots of good points in this thread. While I don't have any evidence for or against the accuracy of the program being discussed, I will say that the general conclusions being drawn from it are correct, at least for a certain set of scenarios. If you review testing of various loads by reputable groups, it becomes clear that there is a certain minimum amount of energy and penetration required to be effective and that more than that is often just more, particularly if you look at final outcomes rather than the fine grains of wound mechanics. The stopping characteristics (that is, did the attacker stop their aggressive activity) of. 380, 9mm, 40, and 45 are all very similar despite a significant disparity in power. Less than that and performance decreases, and more than that comes with marginal performance improvements at the cost of serious shootability issues.
That's not to say that a 158gr bullet at 450fps is always going to produce the same outcomes as 125gr at 1400fps, but just that there is a happy medium after which you'll see decreasing returns on performance until you reach rifle velocities.

To answer the initial question, I think the need for +P is highly application-dependent. Personally, I have used it briefly in the past and will not again. There is insufficient evidence of meaningfully-improved outcomes in a civilian context for me to deal with the increased recoil, expense, and wear on the gun. If I were packing a full-sized sidearm for law enforcement or military use, where barrier penetration might be an issue, then it would be on my radar.

EDIT: I say this with the awareness that some of my loads for strong-action firearms would be considered "357 magnum +P" because they almost certainly exceed 35,000psi. Those guns are big, heavy, single-shots designed to take full-power rifle cartridges and my 357mag brass doesn't seem to mind the extra pressure in a plinking or hunting context.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 03:06 PM

I know almost nothing of this VIRGEL program.

So, why not try it before opining? It's free and easy. There's an Android version on the Google Play Store and I'm working on a web-based version here. (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html)

However, after years of coaching people through problem solving, I will say that it is Critical that you understand underlying assumptions and constraints (whether you enter them or not) when you use an analytical model. I myself sniff something very simplistic in this modeling from what little I have seen displayed.

How about knowing something about the underlying assumptions and constraints before sniffing out simplicity?

We all know that velocity at impact affects expansion characteristics of bullets. If you push an FMJ fast enough into a resistant enough media, it will violently expand. If you push a varmit bullet slow enough it acts as an FMJ.

One of VIRGEL's "underlying assumptions" (clearly stated in the app) is that the media is 10% ballistic gelatin. And the "constraints" imposed by the app limit the velocity between 400 f/s and 1600 f/s. So, any talk of the violent expansion of FMJ bullets seems silly.

Daekar

09-12-2022, 03:23 PM

Jtarm

09-12-2022, 03:26 PM

I’m not gonna go through all the responses, just say although +P is intended to boost velocity, it gets the designation based on pressure. +P pressure is no guarantee of a significant velocity gain.

The .38 Special needs all the help it can get to achieve expansion. 875 vs 800 FPS is almost 10%, possibly making the difference between some expansion and a meplat-sized hole.

By all accounts, .38 +P has been watered down since it’s heyday as a LEO sidearm.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 04:18 PM

Just took your advice and tried the web app, neat toy.

I'm a bit concerned though, there's something funky going on with the equations or my recollection of the performance of some of the "control" loads listed in the bottom left is worse than I imagined. For instance, if I set the parameters to duplicate a 147gr heavy subsonic 9mm round, I can't get the output anywhere near the 40gr they list. The largest self-defense value I can get is with a wadcutter instead of MSH, 35/100 diameter, 150gr, 1050fps, which gives me 25gr. What have I done wrong?

VIRGEL has no way to guess the expanded diameter. You have to enter it yourself. It looks like I used 0.50" to peg penetration at 18" and maximize the "Defense Wound Mass." That might be about right for an XTP. But most others expand too much (in my humble and unbiased opinion) limiting penetration and wound mass. I just checked the Wolberg data (from the first issue of the Wound Ballistics Review) and it looks like early 1990's vintage Winchester 147 grainers averaged closer to 0.54" in actual autopsy measurement. That works out to a wound mass of 38 instead of 40 grams. But close enough for government work.

Thanks for trying VIRGEL. And I like the way you described it -- a neat toy. VIRGEL certainly isn't gospel. But it is a neat toy once you get the hang of running it.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 04:23 PM

VIRGEL has no way to guess the expanded diameter. You have to enter it yourself. It looks like I used 0.50" to peg penetration at 18" and maximize the "Defense Wound Mass." That might be about right for an XTP. But most others expand too much (in my humble and unbiased opinion) limiting penetration and wound mass. I just checked the Wolberg data (from the first issue of the Wound Ballistics Review) and it looks like early 1990's vintage Winchester 147 grainers averaged closer to 0.54" in actual autopsy measurement. That works out to a wound mass of 38 instead of 40 grams. But close enough for government work.

Thanks for trying VIRGEL. And I like the way you described it -- a neat toy. VIRGEL certainly isn't gospel. But it is a neat toy once you get the hang of running it.

The problem with guessing it is guessing. We all know that. That is the problem. Even with wadcutter setting the velocity levels makes virtually no difference.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 04:30 PM

Even if .50 is plugged in mushroom a velocity of 971 to 1599 gives the same DWM

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 04:55 PM

Even if .43 is plugged in for a wadcutter 44 at 250 grains a velocity of 533 fps to 1599 gives the same DWM.

Soundguy

09-12-2022, 06:10 PM

Not my term or judgement. It was the term used by the Brits to describe it actual battlefield performance. The .450 Adams was a British black powder centrefire revolver cartridge initially used in converted Beaumont–Adams revolvers using 13 grains of BP under a 225 grain LRN bullet.

Wow...yeah..i can see why it was called anemic. I have seen what 13gr of pyrodex under a. 140? Gr .454 lead ball does out of a repro revolver... And it ain't much.. And that's got a heavier bullet... Though shorter barrel.

I can see where things like a metal cigarette case or a 50 cent piece could save your day with those ballistics + soft lead.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 06:11 PM

Even if .50 is plugged in mushroom a velocity of 971 to 1599 gives the same DWM

That's been explained before. It's not hard. MacPherson felt that penetration beyond 15" played little or no useful role in self-defense. So, in calculating what I call "Self-Defense Wound Mass" (his term was WTI mw) he ignored any penetration beyond 15". If that doesn't make sense to you, then why not just ignore the "Self-Defense Wound Mass" and use the "Big Game Wound Mass" instead?

BTW: It seems that most manufacturers of premium JHP ammo more or less agree with MacPherson. Otherwise, they'd make ammunition that penetrated deeper than 15". That's simple enough to do. Just limit expansion.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 06:20 PM

That's been explained before. It's not hard. MacPherson felt that penetration beyond 15" played little or no useful role in self-defense. So, in calculating what I call "Self-Defense Wound Mass" (his term was WTI mw) he ignored any penetration beyond 15". If that doesn't make sense to you, then why not just ignore the "Self-Defense Wound Mass" and use the "Big Game Wound Mass" instead?

BTW: It seems that most manufacturers of premium JHP ammo more or less agree with MacPherson. Otherwise, they'd make ammunition that penetrated deeper than 15". That's simple enough to do. Just limit expansion.

It looks like that even if in 15 inches the DWM would be more than VIRGEL says. Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound. So going back to my statement with VIRGEL most velocity increases are for naught.
So all of us higher velocity guys are just pounding sand down a rat hole
Makes me wonder why we have the much higher velocity cartridges.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 06:26 PM

Wow...yeah..i can see why it was called anemic. I have seen what 13gr of pyrodex under a. 140? Gr .454 lead ball does out of a repro revolver... And it ain't much.. And that's got a heavier bullet... Though shorter barrel.

I can see where things like a metal cigarette case or a 50 cent piece could save your day with those ballistics + soft lead.

A .45 caliber 225 grain round nose bullet at 590 f/s should be good for more than 18" of penetration. I'd want more than a half dollar to hide behind.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 07:07 PM

It looks like that even if in 15 inches the DWM would be more than VIRGEL says. Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound. So going back to my statement with VIRGEL most velocity increases are for naught.
So all of us higher velocity guys are just pounding sand down a rat hole
Makes me wonder why we have the much higher velocity cartridges.

OK... One last try. Here's Fackler's wound profile for a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160 grain FMJ at just over 2000 f/s.

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_30-40krag_etc.png

Take a good look at the massive permanent cavity and associated tissue destruction in the first 50 cm of wound channel where the velocity is highest. That's right! There isn't any. Despite it's high velocity, the bullet does very little damage.

Before jumping immediately to the next foolish thing to write, take a minute or two and read what Fackler had to say about this wound profile. In particular, read "Unless these bullets hit substantial bone, which upsets their stability and might cause them to deform or break, they typically cause small punctate entrance and exit wounds with minimal tissue disruption between the two."

I understand you think intuitively that "Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound." But that isn't necessarily so. If the bullet hits nothing but tissue, the damage can be minimal despite the high velocity.

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 07:19 PM

OK... One last try. Here's Fackler's wound profile for a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160 grain FMJ at just over 2000 f/s.

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_30-40krag_etc.png

Take a good look at the massive permanent cavity and associated tissue destruction in the first 50 cm of wound cavity where the velocity is highest. That's right! There isn't any. Despite it's high velocity, the bullet does very little damage.

Before jumping immediately to the next foolish thing to write, take a minute or two and read what Fackler had to say about this wound profile. In particular, read "Unless these bullets hit substantial bone, which upsets their stability and might cause them to deform or break, they typically cause small punctate entrance and exit wounds with minimal tissue disruption between the two."

I understand you think intuitively that "Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound." But that isn't necessarily so. If the bullet hits nothing but tissue, the damage can be minimal despite the high velocity.

So more velocity's is generally useless.
So a lot of us have been fooling ourselves by even going over the bear minimum just a long as the gun functions?
We could maybe even pout a much weaker recoil spring in and go lower and till be okay?

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 07:23 PM

So in my 45 Auto with FMJRN 230 grain bullets 403 fps would be okay if the gun could be made to function since even up to over 1500 it is all the same?

TurnipEaterDown

09-12-2022, 08:00 PM

So, why not try it before opining? It's free and easy. There's an Android version on the Google Play Store and I'm working on a web-based version here. (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html)

How about knowing something about the underlying assumptions and constraints before sniffing out simplicity?

One of VIRGEL's "underlying assumptions" (clearly stated in the app) is that the media is 10% ballistic gelatin. And the "constraints" imposed by the app limit the velocity between 400 f/s and 1600 f/s. So, any talk of the violent expansion of FMJ bullets seems silly.

I still say that if a person is going to use a tool to draw a conclusion, they ought to know how the tool works, and what its limitations are.

The statement about FMJs and varmit bullets was made to make somewhat of a limit comparison. If you did not understand that it was intended to illustrate that the impact characteristics of a bullet change with impact speed, I hope that the further explanation suffices to bring to light the limitations of the programming that you suggest is useful between 400 & 1600 fps. I would be willing to wager with anyone that there are HP bullets commercially available right now that will not expand at 400 fps, will expand as designed to create useful wound cavities at some small range of impact speeds less than 1600 and yet greater than 400 fps, and will fragment within a short distance of the impact point and fail to penetrate and thus fail to create a reliably lethal wound at 1600fps.
By what I read of the discussion about this Virgel tool, it doesn't consider the operating parameters (one being impact velocity) to the extent necessary to fully address some points brought up in the thread.
Hence: Simplistic, or insufficient for some points in the discussion. I don't see that it different than that, or that I need to use it.
Does that mean it is useless? Never said that, though I think you may think I implied that.

pettypace

09-12-2022, 09:11 PM

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:16 PM

It's a curious game you play. You make up nonsense and attribute it to me. Cute.

No, I am going by what VIRGEL says
Even with mushrooming bullets high velocities are not need. Isn't that what VIRGEL says?

pettypace

09-12-2022, 09:27 PM

So in my 45 Auto with FMJRN 230 grain bullets 403 fps would be okay if the gun could be made to function since even up to over 1500 it is all the same?

To maximize "Defense Wound Mass" in a .45 auto I'd look at a 230 grain XTP about as fast as I thought prudent. VIRGEL tells me that might be good for close to 60 grams.

BTW: Whatever made you think hardball at 400 f/s would be a good idea? That would be less than 30 grams.

charlie b

09-12-2022, 09:31 PM

Why do you want more vel? Bullet expansion and depth of penetration. The bigger the bullet dia the more damage.

What that cute toy software is showing is the size of the human body. If your bullet exits the body (more than ~15" penetration), any bullet effects after that don't matter.

It also points out that when you make assumptions about bullet parameters (like bullet expansion), then your results are only as good as those assumptions.

This guy did a lot of testing to show differences in bullet performance, including comparing .38spl, +P and 2" vs 4" barrels. You can view the temporary and permanent wound cavities as well in the videos.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

44MAG#1

09-12-2022, 09:33 PM

To maximize "Defense Wound Mass" in a .45 auto I'd look at a 230 grain XTP about as fast as I thought prudent. VIRGEL tells me that might be good for close to 60 grams.

BTW: Whatever made you think hardball at 400 f/s would be a good idea? That would be less than 30 grams.

It was at 500 fps instead of 400 but 500 to way over 1500 the DWM IS THE SAME. Even at 400 it is very close to the 500 fps mark.

HumptyDumpty

09-13-2022, 08:48 AM

So more velocity's is generally useless.
So a lot of us have been fooling ourselves by even going over the bear minimum just a long as the gun functions?
We could maybe even pout a much weaker recoil spring in and go lower and till be okay?
I don't think that's completely true. We know that hydrostatic shock exists at high velocities (though typically beyond what pistols can accomplish), do the calculators you gentlemen are using account for that? Additionally, with enough speed, the tissues elastic properties are overpowered, and temporary cavities become permanent cavities. That's why the 5.56 works well at close range, but pokes small holes at longer distances.

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 08:51 AM

There is a problem with this. We know that hydrostatic shock exists at high velocities (though typically beyond what pistols can accomplish), do the calculators you gentlemen are using account for that?

I don't know what it includes or doesn't include. I just know velocity is not very important to it as long as you get minimal velocity. Who would have thought that. I have been doing it all wrong for most of my life. To bad at this age I have found that out.

pmer

09-13-2022, 08:56 AM

Pettypace, have you compared your calculations to a actual round shot into gel?

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 09:05 AM

I just wonder what MacPherson carried or does carry if still alive?
Like wondering what doctor ones doctor goes to or what surgeon he would use if he was needing surgery.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 09:24 AM

It was at 500 fps instead of 400 but 500 to way over 1500 the DWM IS THE SAME. Even at 400 it is very close to the 500 fps mark.

Clearly, the lesson of the Mannlicher-Carcano wound profile has not sunk in.

Fackler never did a wound profile for a .25 ACP FMJ. But unless the .25 ACP is a "tumbler," it would probably look like this:

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_30-40krag_etc~2.png

So, what you're saying is... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7--aP-jdS4)

...that there's no difference between a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano and .25 ACP.

No. Of course, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that despite its much greater weight and its much higher velocity and its much greater energy, the stable FMJ Mannlicher-Carcano is likely to do about the same amount of soft tissue damage in its first 15" of penetration as a .25 ACP FMJ does in its 15" of penetration.

But I'm neither a doctor nor a wound ballistics expert. So, taken from me, you might not believe any of that. But Fackler was both a doctor and a wound ballistics expert and made essentially the same argument with respect to the Vietnam era steel core AK-47 round and a .32 ACP pistol round. As Fackler wrote in that wound profile: "A lot of US servicemen owe their lives to the minimal wounds caused by these bullets."

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 09:32 AM

Clearly, the lesson of the Mannlicher-Carcano wound profile has not sunk in.

Fackler never did a wound profile for a .25 ACP FMJ. But unless the .25 ACP is a "tumbler," it would probably look like this:

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_30-40krag_etc~2.png

So, what you're saying is... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7--aP-jdS4)

...that there's no difference between a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano and .25 ACP.

No. Of course, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that despite its much greater weight and its much higher velocity and its much greater energy, the stable FMJ Mannlicher-Carcano is likely to do about the same amount of soft tissue damage in its first 15" of penetration as a .25 ACP FMJ does in its 15" of penetration.

But I'm neither a doctor nor a wound ballistics expert. So, taken from me, you might not believe any of that. But Fackler was both a doctor and a wound ballistics expert and made essentially the same argument with respect to the Vietnam era steel core AK-47 round and a .32 ACP pistol round. As Fackler wrote in that wound profile: "A lot of US servicemen owe their lives to the minimal wounds caused by these bullets."

I cant find anywhere I mention a 25 caliber handgun anywhere

pettypace

09-13-2022, 09:38 AM

I just wonder what MacPherson carried or does carry if still alive?

I think there's a good chance it would be a compact 9mm with reliable 147 grain JHPs.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 09:45 AM

I can find anywhere I mention a 25 caliber handgun anywhere

But you never pass up an opportunity to tell me what I'm saying. Did you even watch the "So, what you're saying..." video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7--aP-jdS4)? I think it illustrates your method of "discussion."

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 09:50 AM

But you never pass up an opportunity to tell me what I'm saying. Did you even watch the "So, what you're saying..." video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7--aP-jdS4)? I think it illustrates your method of "discussion."

That is a good little video. You did well.

cainttype

09-13-2022, 10:25 AM

Hydro-static…. Fluid at rest….. So we are led to believe that fluid at rest (motionless, still) can create “shock”.
Some magazine writers will say anything…. Lol

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 10:37 AM

Hydro-static…. Fluid at rest….. So we are led to believe that fluid at rest (motionless, still) can create “shock”.
Some magazine writers will say anything…. Lol

I believe Elmer Keith hit that Mule Deer two hits out of four shots at 600 yards with a 6.5 inch Smith and Wesson 44 Magnum.
So what does that say about me?

cainttype

09-13-2022, 10:41 AM

I once believed in Santa Claus, then realized I’d been duped… Learning the truth isn’t always as enjoyable as the myths we hold dear.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 10:53 AM

Pettypace, have you compared your calculations to a actual round shot into gel?

First, to give credit where due, understand that VIRGEL is based heavily on the works of Duncan MacPherson (see Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma (https://www.amazon.com/Bullet-Penetration-Modeling-Incapacitation-Resulting-ebook/dp/B00L7CSV7E)) and Charles Schwartz (see Quantitative Ammunition Selection (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=quantitative+ammunition+selection&i=stripbooks&crid=28NV40JSFFLXE&sprefix=quantitative+amm%2Cstripbooks%2C111&ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_1_16)).

But to answer your question: Sure. I'm often comparing VIRGEL's results to published results from actual gel testing and I encourage you to do the same. Usually the comparisons are pretty close. VIRGEL can usually pick up the difference between real 10% ballistic gelatin and the Clear Ballistic gel (Lucky Gunner's data, for example) and VIRGEL can almost always spot a "tumbler" which doesn't come close to predicted penetration despite having no expansion. Only occasionally does VIRGEL really miss the mark with trusted data such as Fackler's .357 Magnum wound profile shown somewhere above.

But keep in mind that penetration is the only thing you can compare. You'll almost never find any real gel measurements for permanent cavity volume (which would correspond to VIRGEL's wound mass calculations). That's one of the virtues of using VIRGEL. Also keep in mind that none of this is an exact science. I think of VIRGEL as a "heuristic" tool -- something to give me a quick and dirty estimates when no exact measurement is possible. It helps me think about things. It's certainly not intended as a virtual replacement for real gel testing.

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 10:56 AM

I once believed in Santa Claus, then realized I’d been duped… Learning the truth isn’t always as enjoyable as the myths we hold dear.

Just like these guys with "THE TRUTH".
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/24/business/famous-ponzi-schemes-generation-hustle/index.html

cainttype

09-13-2022, 11:11 AM

Just like these guys with "THE TRUTH".
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/24/business/famous-ponzi-schemes-generation-hustle/index.html

You seem to be off your meds today.
Tangential discussions are best left to trolls, and those easily trolled.

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 11:26 AM

You seem to be off your meds today.
Tangential discussions are best left to trolls, and those easily trolled.

Thank you.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 11:40 AM

Velocity is needed for a specific hollowpoint design to expand as designed...which seems to be where the +P comes from with smaller caliber HP's

Good point. Adding +P velocity to a non-expanding bullet doesn't gain much. Adding enough +P velocity to get bullet expansion while maintaining adequate penetration can gain a lot.

Also a great website for 44-40 fans (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester). Thanks!

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 11:46 AM

Good point. Adding +P velocity to a non-expanding bullet doesn't gain much. Adding enough +P velocity to get bullet expansion while maintaining adequate penetration can gain a lot.

Also a great website for 44-40 fans (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester). Thanks!

Who do we believe about the threshold on the expansion velocity range? The factories, the "experts" or do our own experimenting?
For example Hornady gives for the 45 Auto XTP a velocity range of 600 to 1650 fps range? How much will it expand at 600 and 1650 fps? Almost none at 600? Almost blow up at 1650 fps? Is 1125 optimum? Which renders a 1911 in 45 AUTO out of the question unless it is converted into the souped up versions?
What about the 9MM?
Where does all this lead to?
What about Speer and Sierras velocity parameters?

Daekar

09-13-2022, 03:03 PM

Who do we believe about the threshold on the expansion velocity range? The factories, the "experts" or do our own experimenting?
For example Hornady gives for the 45 Auto XTP a velocity range of 600 to 1650 fps range? How much will it expand at 600 and 1650 fps? Almost none at 600? Almost blow up at 1650 fps? Is 1125 optimum? Which renders a 1911 in 45 AUTO out of the question unless it is converted into the souped up versions?
What about the 9MM?
Where does all this lead to?
What about Speer and Sierras velocity parameters?

I think it depends on how badly you want to make sure you have accurate and precise knowledge of bullet behavior. If Hornady, a reputable bullet company, is advertising a defense bullet for 45 auto and they claim expansion down to 600fps, I would make the assumption that at least some degree of predictable expansion behavior is observable over that velocity range. If you want to know more than that, you're going to have to look at tests.

Personally, if I were loading HPs and relying on them to make my ammo effective (I'm not and I don't), I would try to err towards the middle of the stated velocity range for my loads, or at least the standard velocity for the cartridge I'm loading. In your example, it would be absolutely irresponsible and ridiculous for Hornady to make and sell a 0.452 diameter bullet advertised as "45 Auto XTP" which didn't properly function at 45ACP velocities. Is it possible that they're just selling terrible bullets? Well yeah... but would they bet the brand on getting away with it? Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but I don't see that happening.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 03:20 PM

Who do we believe about the threshold on the expansion velocity range? The factories, the "experts" or do our own experimenting?
For example Hornady gives for the 45 Auto XTP a velocity range of 600 to 1650 fps range? How much will it expand at 600 and 1650 fps? Almost none at 600? Almost blow up at 1650 fps? Is 1125 optimum? Which renders a 1911 in 45 AUTO out of the question unless it is converted into the souped up versions?
What about the 9MM?
Where does all this lead to?
What about Speer and Sierras velocity parameters?

The factories won't show you anything they don't want you to see. There's a lot of good info at the Lucky Gunner site. Just keep in mind that penetration might be deeper in Clear Ballistic gel than in real 10% ballistic gelatin.

If you really want to find the lower threshold for expansion, you'll probably have to do your own testing. But real gelatin is expensive, time-consuming, and requires meticulous attention to detail -- all beyond me. But with a cooperative range officer, some half gallon milk cartons full of water, scraps from worn out jeans, a long box full of pillow stuffing, a vernier caliper, a chronograph, and VIRGEL, you can learn everything you need to know short of barrier penetration.

pettypace

09-13-2022, 03:43 PM

I think it depends on how badly you want to make sure you have accurate and precise knowledge of bullet behavior. If Hornady, a reputable bullet company, is advertising a defense bullet for 45 auto and they claim expansion down to 600fps, I would make the assumption that at least some degree of predictable expansion behavior is observable over that velocity range. If you want to know more than that, you're going to have to look at tests.

Personally, if I were loading HPs and relying on them to make my ammo effective (I'm not and I don't), I would try to err towards the middle of the stated velocity range for my loads, or at least the standard velocity for the cartridge I'm loading. In your example, it would be absolutely irresponsible and ridiculous for Hornady to make and sell a 0.452 diameter bullet advertised as "45 Auto XTP" which didn't properly function at 45ACP velocities. Is it possible that they're just selling terrible bullets? Well yeah... but would they bet the brand on getting away with it? Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but I don't see that happening.

That all makes perfect sense to me. I'll only add that in testing I've seen on the internet, XTPs often seem to fold back on themselves just the right amount to maximize "MacPherson Wound Mass" for the cartridge. Other bullets often seem to expand too much, giving less penetration and lower wound mass.

44MAG#1

09-13-2022, 03:45 PM

The thing to do is if anyone does tests is never post them. I found that out by posting chronographing some data one time. Never again.
If one did expansion test the ones with a lot of degrees behind their name will pick it to death. Questioning things like Distance, type of media, how thick was the plastic jugs of water if water was used, were the jugs completely full or did they have a space at the top, how the median was prepared, outside temperature, humidity, brand of chrono if chronoed, did you have a fresh battery in it, was it an accurate chonograph, did you hold the gun tight, how hard did you pull the trigger, what phase was the moon the night before, did you measure the bullet after recovery accurately, etc, etc.
Ones results will be destroyed by some.
But it is alright. it is done in the name of statistics and that is good. Without statistics where would we be?
I understand.

pettypace

09-15-2022, 05:59 AM

44MAG#1

09-15-2022, 07:30 AM

Found this diagram last night in a 1987 report by Fackler called Missile-Caused Wounds.. (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA181087.pdf)

https://rewebster.org/pics/composite_profiles.png

More evidence that velocity, per se, is not what causes the major damage.

That is good to know. I will continue to drop my velocity. Hope others do too. Im down to 4.4 grains of Bullseye now in the 44 Mag.

pettypace

09-15-2022, 08:08 AM

That is good to know. I will continue to drop my velocity. Hope others do too. Im down to 4.4 grains of Bullseye now in the 44 Mag.

My bedside Bulldog is loaded with 4.0 grains of Red Dot under a pair of NOE 432-149 wadcutters. It's good for about 625 f/s. Fired into well-used and not-so-Clear Ballistic gel, the two stubby wadcutters penetrate deeper than short barrel Gold Dots from my Centennial. But recoil is all I want and probably more than my Bulldog appreciates.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Snubby.jpg

44MAG#1

09-15-2022, 08:14 AM

My bedside Bulldog is loaded with 4.0 grains of Red Dot under a pair of NOE 432-149 wadcutters. That load is good for about 625 f/s. Fired into well-used and not-so-Clear Ballistic gel, the two stubby wadcutters penetrate deeper than short barrel Gold Dots from my Centennial. But recoil is all I want and probably more than my Bulldog appreciates.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Snubby.jpg

I'm going to try to get down to 525 fps. That should do it.

44MAG#1

09-15-2022, 08:23 AM

Since my bullet has a Meplat of .380 and not .430 like a wadcutter which is .050 smaller I believe going down in velocity will make up for the .050 inch.

cainttype

09-15-2022, 08:55 AM

Since my bullet has a Meplat of .380 and not .430 like a wadcutter which is .050 smaller I believe going down in velocity will make up for the .050 inch.

If this were the “Magic Meplat” thread, and I was attempting to help a novice, I’d add…

.430” meplat = 0.145 sq inch

0.30” meplat = 0.070 sq inch.

At those diameters, adding 0.050” more than doubled the area of the meplat from 0.30” to 0.430”.

That way they “might” understand that 0.050” meplat difference means less in larger bullets but can make HUGE differences in smaller options.

pettypace

09-15-2022, 08:58 AM

Since my bullet has a Meplat of .380 and not .430 like a wadcutter which is .050 smaller I believe going down in velocity will make up for the .050 inch.

I'm beginning to think it might be safer all around if you dropped down to about 0.0 grains of BE.

44MAG#1

09-15-2022, 09:02 AM

I'm beginning to think it might be safer all around if he dropped down to about 0.0 grains of BE.

I'm trying to figure out how to increase the destructiveness of my bullet since it is all I have with a larger Meplat but still not a wadcutter.

35remington

09-15-2022, 10:08 PM

Pp, what kind of penetration do those dual wadcutters get at 625 fps?

I am familiar with how a Bulldog recoils shooting a 240 grain bullet at 810 fps. Would you say your load kicks more than that?

Tripplebeards

09-15-2022, 10:44 PM

I loaded up some cast and j words with trailboss in my S&W 329NG 44 mag. It has a 2 1/4” barrel and made out of titanium. The thing still recoils like my 10mm glock 20 even with the TB 44 mag pussycat loads. I shot it the summer before last trying to schim the rear sight. Two range sessions with full throttle 250 plus rounds each time out. Made sure to wear gloves so my knuckles wouldn’t bleed from shooting it like normal. It’s a beast.

https://i.imgur.com/rIx3mp8.jpg

pettypace

09-16-2022, 07:37 AM

Pp, what kind of penetration do those dual wadcutters get at 625 fps?

I am familiar with how a Bulldog recoils shooting a 240 grain bullet at 810 fps. Would you say your load kicks more than that?

Here's a screenshot from my notes. But don't be misled by the picture of the gel block-- that's the second of two ammo can size blocks of Clear Ballistic gel. Those slugs had already penetrated 11" of C-B gel before entering the block in the pic. Also, penetration in C-B gel does not necessarily match penetration in real 10% ordnance gelatin. My best effort to calibrate the gel in the picture gave a calibration factor of about 0.8. So, the 17" average mentioned in my notes would be closer to 13" if fired into real gelatin.

https://rewebster.org/pics/44WC_Dplx_A.png

As for recoil -- STOUT. About the same as your 240 grain load. From VIRGEL's power factor calc: Duplex=186 vs Conventional=194.

Here's the 10-shot (20 hits) target mentioned in my notes fired double-action at 7 yards by a then new shooter the first time he touched a Bulldog:

https://rewebster.org/pics/44WC_Dplx_B.jpg

And here's my best guess of where that load ranks in terms of MacPherson Wound Mass (not to mention whatever advantage might accrue from getting two chances to hit something important with each trigger pull):

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_61_300_625.png

dverna

09-16-2022, 08:42 AM

Interesting discussion. Never heard of VIRGEL...I have based my bullet selection on the stuff in the Lucky Gunner studies.

It seems intuitive that if a bullet dumps more energy into a person/animal it should perform better. And if it "cuts" more tissue that is helpful. It might need to penetrate more than tissue too...it is hard to needle a bullet between the ribs for me. Seems like getting at least 12" of penetration is a good goal too.

Not sure if a .45 caliber hole in the lungs or heart kills faster than a .30 caliber hole, but pretty sure both will cause death eventually.

Getting down to the lightest load that will do the job seems ill advised when there are so many variables. If a person can handle the recoil and shoot proficiently, a more powerful choice makes sense. But if all a person can handle is a standard .38 Spl, it is still better than a stick and rocks.

Using a proven bullet and learning to shoot seems a more valuable endeavor than fretting about which "expert" has the best model.

44MAG#1

09-16-2022, 08:46 AM

charlie b

09-16-2022, 12:33 PM

As long as the vel gives the penetration required then that is my take as well.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

35remington

09-16-2022, 07:08 PM

If I want reasonable controllability of my 638 I have to keep standard weight bullets in the standard pressure range. In some usage max possible speed is unhelpful. In such instances just tailor the load to your personal preference and go with that and use the program to give some idea of where you might wind up. Interpreting information by extrapolation to the lowest usable parameter is a doubtful strategy.

M-Tecs

09-16-2022, 10:34 PM

44MAG#1

09-16-2022, 10:48 PM

Shooting small game and SD are not remotely the same but some comparisons can be made. During the early to mid 70's I shot a lot of jackrabbits with a 45 Colt mostly with Lyman 454190's. Alloy was straight 1970's vintage wheel weights with a little tin. I do know visible damage was much different between 800 fps loads and 1,300 fps loads. I cannot answer if the higher velocity allowed the alloy to expand.

For my personal SD loads I want as much energy transfer as possible while maintaining adequate penetration so all my SD loads are +P or +P equivalent. Can I say unequivocally that higher velocity is a significant benefit? Nope, but on the flip side it can't hurt. Military history also indicates that the anemic rounds did not have a good reputation for stopping power.

VIRGEL says for a 45 caliber RN which the 454190 isn't much better than, that velocities between slightly over 400 to 1599 the Defense Wound Mass is the same. I believe that is based on no more than 15 inches of penetration unless I am mistaken. So that would cover varmints too I believe so going from just over 400 to 1599 there should have not have been any difference
Maybe Pettypace can explain it.

M-Tecs

09-16-2022, 10:53 PM

44MAG#1

09-16-2022, 10:56 PM

Theoretical explanations/simulations are interesting and food for thought. They do not override what I have seen with my own eyes.

VIRGEL supposed to be based on known studies by authorities on wounding capabilities of bullets and velocities.

pettypace

09-17-2022, 05:24 AM

VIRGEL says for a 45 caliber RN which the 454190 isn't much better than, that velocities between slightly over 400 to 1599 the Defense Wound Mass is the same. I believe that is based on no more than 15 inches of penetration unless I am mistaken. So that would cover varmints too I believe so going from just over 400 to 1599 there should have not have been any difference
Maybe Pettypace can explain it.

No, 44MAG#1, it's not likely I can explain it to you! But, I'll try again...

If I understand what you've written (which often isn't easy) you object to the fact that VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) sometimes shows little or no difference in "Defense Wound Mass" as the velocity increases from 400 to 1600 f/s.

That may seem counter-intuitive to you. But it's simply an indication that the bullet in question has enough sectional density to achieve 18" of penetration in bare 10% ordnance gelatin even at just 400 f/s and that VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) stops counting "Defense Wound Mass" (by definition) after 18" of penetration.

Now, you could argue that VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) is full of crap and that, for example, a 250 grain Keith bullet at 400 f/s simply won't penetrate 18" of ballistic gelatin. But I wouldn't recommend watching that little experiment with your nose tucked up against the back end of the gel block.

Or, you could argue that the FBI is full of crap and that 18" of penetration simply isn't enough to consider for "Defense Wound Mass." But the FBI doesn't like guys like you, so I wouldn't recommend that either.

Or (which seems far more likely), you could just argue.

BTW: If you want to see that "Defense Wound Mass" can increase over the full range of velocity, just try VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) with a bullet that has much lower sectional density. Try, for example, NOE's 107 grain ,44 caliber wadcutter. That will show steadily increasing "Defense Wound Mass" over the full range of velocity.

44MAG#1

09-17-2022, 07:48 AM

No, 44MAG#1, it's not likely I can explain it to you! But, I'll try again...

If I understand what you've written (which often isn't easy) you object to the fact that VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) sometimes shows little or no difference in "Defense Wound Mass" as the velocity increases from 400 to 1600 f/s.

That may seem counter-intuitive to you. But it's simply an indication that the bullet in question has enough sectional density to achieve 18" of penetration even at just 400 f/s and that VIRGEL stops counting "Defense Wound Mass" (by definition) after 18" of penetration.

Now, you could argue that VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) is full of crap and that, for example, a 250 grain Keith bullet at 400 f/s simply won't penetrate 18" of ballistic gelatin. But I wouldn't recommend watching that little experiment with your nose tucked up against the back end of the gel block.

Or, you could argue that the FBI is full of crap and that 18" of penetration simply isn't enough to consider for "Defense Wound Mass." But the FBI doesn't like guys like you, so I wouldn't recommend that either.

Or (which seems far more likely), you could just argue.

BTW: If you want to see that "Defense Wound Mass" can increase over the full range of velocity, just try VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) with a bullet that has much lower sectional density. Try, for example, NOE's 107 grain ,44 caliber wadcutter. That will show steadily increasing "Defense Wound Mass" over the full range of velocity.

Oh I understand. With a 43/100 diameter bullet of 108 gr in wadcutter shape at a velocity of 407 fps pen. Is 7 inches and DWM is 9. At 1599 pen. Is 17 inches and DWM is 34.
With a 43/100 bullet of 245 grains wadcutter shape with a velocity of 535 fps will give 18 inches pen., and a DWM of 37. At 1597 fps it will give 38 inches and 37 DWM.
I understand.

pettypace

09-17-2022, 08:45 AM

Oh I understand. With a 43/100 diameter bullet of 108 gr in wadcutter shape at a velocity of 407 fps pen. Is 7 inches and DWM is 9. At 1599 pen. Is 17 inches and DWM is 34.
With a 43/100 bullet of 245 grains a velocity of 535 fps will give 18 inches pen., and a DWM of 37. At 1597 fps it will give 38 inches and 37 DWM.
I understand.

It's also worth understanding that the 37 grams of "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) predicts for a 230 grain .44 wadcutter fired at modest velocities from your 629 is in the same league as the 37 grams of wound mass VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) predicts for the vaunted "FBI Load" or for a premium 147 grain 9mm JHP. As far as "Defense Wound Mass" is concerned, VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) puts all three in the same ballpark.

If you want much more than that from your .44, you'll need a different bullet and more velocity. If you want much more than that from a .38 Special or a 9mm you''re out of luck.

44MAG#1

09-17-2022, 08:55 AM

charlie b

09-17-2022, 04:43 PM

It's also worth understanding that the 37 grams of "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) predicts for a 230 grain .44 wadcutter fired at modest velocities from your 629 is in the same league as the 37 grams of wound mass VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) predicts for the vaunted "FBI Load" or for a premium 147 grain 9mm JHP. As far as "Defense Wound Mass" is concerned, VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) puts all three in the same ballpark.

If you want much more than that from your .44, you'll need a different bullet and more velocity. If you want much more than that from a .38 Special or a 9mm you''re out of luck.

From what I can tell, the use of expanding ammo information in that code is just a guess at how much expansion you will get. You could even 'assume' that the FBI 158 SWCHP would expand at 500fps, even though it does not. You could also assume that it will expand to .45" or even more, which dramatically changes the outcome.

To be fair, this is not a flaw in the Virgel code, it is just the simple nature of the algorithms used in that software.

Virgel makes sense in comparing non-expanding projectiles, not much else.

pettypace

09-17-2022, 08:58 PM

From what I can tell, the use of expanding ammo information in that code is just a guess at how much expansion you will get. You could even 'assume' that the FBI 158 SWCHP would expand at 500fps, even though it does not. You could also assume that it will expand to .45" or even more, which dramatically changes the outcome.

To be fair, this is not a flaw in the Virgel code, it is just the simple nature of the algorithms used in that software.

Virgel makes sense in comparing non-expanding projectiles, not much else.

You're right that VIRGEL allows you to "assume" any value you want for expanded bullet diameter. But, as they say, "That's a feature, not a bug!" The whole point of simulation software is to pursue assumptions without the expense of actually doing the experiment.

For example, here's Fackler's wound profile for the FBI Load:

https://rewebster.org/pics/profile_38_fbi.png

Working in an Army research lab, Fackler had a big budget and willing workers at his command. Lots of resources went into measuring expansion of 0.59" and 12.6" of penetration.

Fackler's measurements provide a benchmark to see if VIRGEL knows anything at all about expanded bullets. Sure enough! VIRGEL predicts the same 13" of penetration. That's a good sign.

But what if the FBI Load has to go through heavy clothing that clogs the hollow point and limits expansion to just 0.48"? Fackler's wound profile offers no clue. But VIRGEL instantly shows a likely penetration of 19" with even more "Defense Wound Mass" than with bare gel. That's worth knowing. It helps explain why the FBI Load had a reputation of working from a snubby as well as from a 4" service revolver. And it didn't take the Letterman Army Institute of Research to find out.

VIRGEL can even make some sense of your 500 f/s expanded FBI Load example. We know that 500 f/s is not enough to cause expansion. But suppose that bullet mentioned above expanded to 0.48" after hitting the bad guy and then passed through a few inches of soft tissue and exited with a velocity of 500 ft/s. Is that bullet any danger to innocent bystanders downrange? A few taps at VIRGEL show that a 158 grain mushroomed bullet at just 500 f/s might still penetrate to 12". That's worth knowing, too.

What more do you want from free software?

44MAG#1

09-17-2022, 09:29 PM

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

Outpost75

09-17-2022, 09:42 PM

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

Back in the day I knew Marty Fackler professionally and worked with him and Dr. Robert L. McCoy at BRL on several technical intelligence projects evaluating the Soviet AK74 vs. M16A1and A2 calibrating @10% gelatin against live goats and pig muscle. Military physicians at AFIP performed both the wound treatments and PMs. That raw data and detailed analysis is still classified, but suffice to say the test methods were fully validated and we had some great BBQs. The test methods were later applied to handgun rounds and are fully credible.

M-Tecs

09-17-2022, 09:59 PM

Very interest man

https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler

Kosh75287

09-17-2022, 10:00 PM

The unanswerable question is [at] what point does the load become "anemic"?

For MY purposes, in the context of a defensive pistol round, when the bullet weight (grains) multiplied by velocity (f/s) does not equal or exceed 160,000 with a projectile of at least .355" diameter, I consider it too anemic for defense. This also assumes a SWC, T/C or RNFP bullet configuration.
This may not be EVERYone's answer to that question, but it works for me. The question IS, in fact, answerable. But the answer may not be the same for each shooter.

44MAG#1

09-17-2022, 10:02 PM

I wonder what caliber handgun Mr Fackler carried and the ammo used.

M-Tecs

09-17-2022, 10:19 PM

I don't know at what point a cartridge becomes anemic for its intended usage but here is one example.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/.38_Long_Colt

The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine-American War of 1899–1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados, even at extremely close ranges. A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:

Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[3]

Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm

pettypace

09-18-2022, 04:32 AM

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

Between 1991 and 2001 Fackler published the Wound Ballistics Review available online in pdf format here. (https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/). It's a goldmine of good information. The very last issue contains the complete set of Fackler's wound profiles.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 04:54 AM

pettypace

09-18-2022, 05:46 AM

Again, I wonder what Mr. Fackler carried as far as a handgun and the caliber it was and the ammo he carried in his personal gun?
That would tell us a lot.
How many have changed their handgun choice and or ammo over all this information that has been presented?

Maybe Fackler wasted his time with all those experiments, diagrams, words, and ideas of his. He should have just told us what he carried.

That would tell us a lot.

Because surely there's a one-size-fits-all answer and tomorrow we could all just stream out to our local gun stores and buy the magic gun with the magic bullets that Fackler carried.

How many have changed their handgun choice and or ammo over all this information that has been presented?

I think the answer is "2." But why do you ask? Is the information more relevant if the answer turned out to be "4" or less relevant if the answer is "0"?

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 07:57 AM

Maybe Fackler wasted his time with all those diagrams and words and ideas of his. He should have just told us what he carried.

Because surely there's a one-size-fits-all answer and tomorrow we could all just stream out to our local gun stores and buy the magic gun with the magic bullets that Fackler carried.

I think the answer is "2." But why do you ask? Is the information more relevant if the answer turns out to be "4" or less relevant if the answer is "0"?

2, 4, or 0. I still would like to know what he carried. And the ammo he used in what he carried.
What is wrong with that?
That would be interesting to me if it isn't to you.
Did his research/experiments influence his carry choice?
I have some expensive knives I think is the best out there for over the counter knives but I carry a Case Large Stockman and a Spyderco Endura with a partially serrated blade which I don't care for when I am out and a Gerber at home in my lounging pants
Although I think there are a lot better quality knives that are better for carry and I own several.
I know a guy that shoots IDPA and is quite good at it and he shoots Taurus handguns a lot even though he has plenty of money and owns much more expensive handguns.
As WE all KNOW people can be a funny thing.

pettypace

09-18-2022, 08:48 AM

Out of curiosity, I too would like to know what Fackler carried. But, whatever his choice, I'm sure it involved due consideration of reliability, accuracy, penetration, and permanent cavity volume.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 08:56 AM

Out of curiosity, I too would like to know what Fackler carried. But, whatever his choice, I'm sure it involved due consideration of reliability, accuracy, penetration, and permanent cavity volume.
Can we be sure about that knowing what we know about people?
I know another guy that carrys a Ruger 380 when he has 9MM and 45 Autos in various sizes.
You will find I AM NOT the only questionable minded person out there.
Shoot, practice and own several handguns in various calibers and prices and carries a 380. My neighbor carries a 25 Auto with 50 gr FMJRN ammo. But he is a big fan of the 9MM

pmer

09-18-2022, 09:15 AM

cainttype

09-18-2022, 12:26 PM

It looks Martin Fackler was a Navy surgeon from 1960 to 1975 does that mean he got to choose between a 1911 and a 4" barreled 38 Special?

Like everyone else he probably wanted 45 ACP performance from something smaller and lighter LOL

Dr. Martin Fackler is often referred to as “The Father” of modern wound ballistic research (for good reason) by other men, highly respected by their peers, that have followed in his footsteps.
Duncan Macpherson is another “giant” in the field, but approached the subject from a sort of “mechanical view”, developing ideas that could be easier understood by the average reader. He was a well-known, highly competent engineer… Macpherson’s interest in the subject came after his recognition as a gifted “Rocket Scientist”. You can find his name listed prominently in NASA’s space program records.

If you’re interested in Fackler’s personal habits, whether he even carried a gun, you might need to ask someone with a more personal connection…
Ask Outpost75, if he’s willing to share that sort of info about an old friend.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 01:34 PM

If you’re interested in Fackler’s personal habits, whether he even carried a gun, you might need to ask someone with a more personal connection…
Ask Outpost75, if he’s willing to share that sort of info about an old friend.

I have found that friends will protect friends
Just like enemies will run down enemies
One never knows who to listen too. Just flip a coin

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

cainttype

09-18-2022, 02:50 PM

I have found that friends will protect friends
Just like enemies will run down enemies
One never knows who to listen too. Just flip a coin

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

In your case, nothing is believable.
Luckily sane people with some experience can make pretty good judgement calls when presented with reasonable evidence and logical reasoning.
There’s no “coin flipping” that will ever answer even the easiest of questions. PRETENDING that there are no answers is more a reaction to ignoring accurate answers you would rather not admit are accurate.

Since we can’t all be “experts” in every discipline, those that are intelligent defer to the real experts in particular fields to give us the reasoned, logical answers to the questions that we are curious about.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 03:32 PM

In your case, nothing is believable.
Luckily sane people with some experience can make pretty good judgement calls when presented with reasonable evidence and logical reasoning.
There’s no “coin flipping” that will ever answer even the easiest of questions. PRETENDING that there are no answers is more a reaction to ignoring accurate answers you would rather not admit are accurate.

Since we can’t all be “experts” in every discipline, those that are intelligent defer to the real experts in particular fields to give us the reasoned, logical answers to the questions that we are curious about.

I am sorry you took what I said like you did. I am just going by what i have witnessed by living my life for close to 70 years. I have been a learner in those years. Some of it good some not so good. The not so good has influenced me equally as much as the good.
In being around and working with and for people for many, many, many ,many years with various backgrounds from people who could just barely read and write to those with high degrees of education, with some who some were slicker than a sheet of ice, has really colored my views.
I am sorry for that. If you have had better experiences I am glad.
Remember I still believe Elmer Keith hit that Mule Deer two shot out of four shots at 600 yards with a 6.5 inch S&W 44 Magnum.
So you see how my mind works.
Sorry, again.

dverna

09-18-2022, 03:57 PM

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 04:02 PM

I did not know Keith hit a deer twice at 600 yards using a .44 Mag pistol. If that is a true story, my respect for the man has been severely diminished. Only a jerk would take a shot like that, unless the deer had been wounded and needed a “Hail Mary” shot to stop its suffering.

It was hit by a rifle shooter. If you had read anything by Keith one would know that.
That story has been circulated muchly

cainttype

09-18-2022, 04:34 PM

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

Valid point, and one that often causes confusion in many of these ballistic wound trauma, and ammo component combo potentials to cause quantifiable tissue destruction/damage/results.
The mistake is usually made by people (often with good intentions, but misled) trying to equate junk research and “statistics” offered by inept magazine writers/book authors claiming they have answers to questions that were long ago solved by real professionals, and competent statistical analysis.
It is easy to see how the firearms media is complicit in spreading the disinformation because they assisted the incompetents by featuring much of their “data” as something that could be trusted… “Real World” BS.

Oddly enough, those same publications, when given the opportunity to admit their mistake simply chose to more or less ignore their own incompetence and wished it to simply all fade away…. Hoping their readers would never realize how easily the editors themselves were duped….
It worked somewhat, because many that trusted them never heard the retraction. That’s why some have very good reason to be as skeptical of gun rags as they should be of “Mainstream Media… News”.

The previously mentioned Dr Fackler, along with Mr Macpherson, are the exact opposite of the incompetents in question.
Both men put decades into serious science, with stellar achievements and contributions in their fields.
Anyone comparing the validity between these separate groups of “authorities” can consider themselves officially “confused”.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 06:26 PM

I may be officially Confused. I know what I know because i learned it the hard way and that learning has caused me to know what I know when it comes to knowing to be very cautious of what the people in the "know" tries to get the unknowing to know.
Here is the ammo I carry in my Glock 45 Auto which is what I carry the most when carrying semi autos even though I like the 1911 launch pad absolutely the best of any semi auto handgun. Even though I like a revolver the best of all handguns I carry a semi auto the most.

304654

dverna

09-18-2022, 06:45 PM

It was hit by a rifle shooter. If you had read anything by Keith one would know that.
That story has been circulated muchly

Thanks for the clarification. And you are correct....I have read very little by guys like Keith and Taffin etc. I have never had any desire for more than a .357 Mag. in a pistol. Getting beaten up by recoil never appealed. As a result, articles on more powerful pistol calibers were of little interest. .

BTW, this has been an interesting thread.

44MAG#1

09-18-2022, 06:49 PM

35remington

09-18-2022, 07:00 PM

I attempted to do so for part of your question. See first page.

Kosh75287

09-18-2022, 07:05 PM

pettypace

09-18-2022, 10:23 PM

A question was asked, rhetorically I think, involving the .38 Special. It was stipulated that a standard pressure .38 Spl. threw a (158 gr., I believe) projectile at 800 f/s, and a .38 Spl. +P threw the same projectile at 875 f/s. It was then asked what was really gained.
Well, 19.6% more kinetic energy, for one thing. Probably a bit more penetration, to go along with it. I am NOT a "foot pounds fanatic", but I DO recognize that K.E. does play some part in the incapacitation equation. Penetration is a (more important, IMHO) factor, also, so I'll accept what gains can be had there, too.
With a 158 gr. projectile (LSWC, preferably), I consider neither of the velocities cited as enough for personal defense. But if my choices are between "not enough" and "not enough but slightly more", I'LL take the latter, while looking for a better sidearm.

It's good that you're not a "foot pounds fanatic." But don't fall for the kinetic energy thing -- not even a little bit.

Here's Fackler's "It ain't about energy" lesson:

Slide 1: Fackler's high-velocity 6mm round ball wound profile:

https://rewebster.org/pics/6mmRB.png

Slide 2: Fackler's low-velocity 12 gauge round ball wound profile:

https://rewebster.org/pics/12gaugeRB.jpg

Fackler's captions are well worth trying to read. But in case your eyesight is as bad as mine, here's the gist of it: The two projectiles have the same kinetic energy. But the slow, heavy, big diameter projectile does 15 times the tissue damage as the fast, light, small diameter projectile.

Lesson to be learned: It's all about permanent cavity wound mass, not kinetic energy.

HWooldridge

09-18-2022, 11:16 PM

It's good that you're not a "foot pounds fanatic." But don't fall for the kinetic energy thing -- not even a little bit.

Here's Fackler's "It ain't about energy" lesson:

Slide 1: Fackler's high-velocity 6mm round ball wound profile:

https://rewebster.org/pics/6mmRB.png

Slide 2: Fackler's low-velocity 12 gauge round ball wound profile:

https://rewebster.org/pics/12gaugeRB.jpg

Fackler's captions are well worth trying to read. But in case your eyesight is as bad as mine, here's the gist of it: The two projectiles have the same kinetic energy. But the slow, heavy, big diameter projectile does 15 times the tissue damage as the fast, light, small diameter projectile.

Lesson to be learned: It's all about permanent cavity wound mass, not kinetic energy.

That was proven out during the Civil War with Minie balls (bullets), which caused horrible wounds at relatively low velocities. Amputations were frequent - not only due to rapid infection, but because most any limb struck by a .58 piece of pure lead generally shattered the bone. Doctors figured it was easier to cut off a leg or arm rather than try to save it.

Outpost75

09-18-2022, 11:16 PM

I wonder what caliber handgun Mr Fackler carried and the ammo used.

Fair question. In Marty's early years as a "meatball surgeon" at a firebase in Vietnam, doing his best to stabilize combat wounded to survive their air evac to a higher level of care he was issued an M1911A1 pistol with ball ammo.

In combat areas he said they carried all the time due to risk of infiltrators intending to kill US and ARVN medical personnel. I do not know whether he actually ever had to use his .45 in anger, but he had full confidence in it.

He related to me an incident where he used the pistol as an impact weapon "to sedate an emotionally disturbed casualty" where it was quite effective such that the subject recovered to be exfilled to a higher command authority for court martial. "The MPs would have simply killed the bastard, but he deserved due process.'

M-Tecs

09-19-2022, 01:35 AM

I have the utmost respect for the work of men like Dr. Fackler and Mr. Macpherson. That being said their data is only one tool in a very large toolbox. On a very simplistic level history has proven that the larger and faster a projectile is the more effective it will be related to stopping power. The flipside of that what is a realistic minimum? That can only be answered by the individual's requirements. For some it's a one size fits all for others it's much more like selecting the proper PPE. It's based on threat levels. The military, LE and civilians all benefit from this type of data, however, their requirements may not be the same.

For SD with a handgun, I have used and will continue to use calibers as small as the 22LR and as large as a 500 S&W depending on my need. When I take the dogs for a walk, I carry a 22LR in case of rabid fox or coyote. In my own home my threat level is very low, so I don't carry in the house normally. A couple of years ago an escaped murderer was loose in the area. The LE had helicopters overhead and they were searching my property. I strapped on my 45 ACP double stack until he was captured about a block away. For bears I have carried 44 Mag, 500 S&W and 460 Rowland. For daily carry it's mostly a Sig 365XL but that at times that is still too large so it's a Ruger LCP 380 in the front pocket.

For me it's no different than selecting proper PPE. Unlike selecting PPE when it comes to SD we have very limited control of what threat we will face so we are just guessing at what an acceptable matchup could be.

Back to the subject of the merits of +P ammo I want the most energy transfer possible in a load I can control in a size of firearm that best matches my realistic threat level.

cainttype

09-19-2022, 06:30 AM

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I have a 38 snubby load for SD that easily and reliably achieves the type penetration I want but is iffy on expansion as one option, and the second option is a similar +P version that tends to reliably expand with the added 75-100 fps and still gets more than my required penetration… I want the +P version every time.
On the other hand, if I have a compact 45 auto with a load that reliably expands and penetrates to my requirements at a modest velocity I might avoid a +P version since any extra muzzle-blast, recoil, and over-penetration is something I don’t want.

pettypace

09-19-2022, 07:07 AM

Continuing with the toolbox metaphor... What's the difference between the "energy transfer" tool and MacPherson's "wound mass" tool? Or do they really amount to the same thing?

HumptyDumpty

09-19-2022, 07:26 AM

The thread still doesn't really answer my OP on whether the small gains one gets on 38 Special +P and 9MM +P is really worthwhile especially in short barrel handguns. Is it even worth it in the 45
Auto? Not talking about the 45 Super or a 460 Roland. Just the 45 Auto.

You were not that specific in your first post; it would have been helpful had you been. Within the SAAMI pressure limits of 45 auto +p, I would say no, the performance gain is not significant. If you load it hotter (which is all the Super and Rowland rounds do, fundamentally), the difference becomes dramatic. I'd imagine it is similar with 9mm and and 38 special. So, it partly depends on whether we confine our definition of "+P" to a published specification from SAAMI or CIP (if the Europeans even do that), or not.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 07:48 AM

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

cainttype

09-19-2022, 08:33 AM

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

40 S&W +P, by Buffalo Bore… They even offer 32 and 380 +P…
Underwood is another that supplies unusual options.

HumptyDumpty

09-19-2022, 08:43 AM

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

No, they don't. However, it is not terribly uncommon to use standard 45 Auto brass with Super or Rowland data (before somebody interject, a true Rowland chamber is slightly longer, but COAL and case capacity is the same as 45 Auto, so it truly is just a matter of increased pressure). From my carbine, this is all I do. From a pistol, a fully supported chamber is required. Other modifications are model-specific. 45 Super and Rowland brass have a strengthened case head area; to my knowledge, 38 special and 9mm brass are the same, whether they are designated as +P or not. I also know that 38 Super is often labeled +P, simply to help avoid confusion with 38 Automatic; I am not sure if it even has a an official +P specification. I've certainly encountered some that was hotter than others.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 08:43 AM

40 S&W +P, by Buffalo Bore… They even offer 32 and 380 +P…
Underwood is another that supplies unusual options.

Thank you.

cainttype

09-19-2022, 08:43 AM

A quick check at Underwood’s showed 38 Super and 45 Colt being available in +P offerings.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 08:45 AM

A quick check at Underwood’s showed 38 Super and 45 Colt being available in +P offerings.

What is SAAMI specs on the +P that has been listed? Other than the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto?

cainttype

09-19-2022, 09:50 AM

I’m not sure if SAAMI has any specs for the oddball +Ps…. IIRC, +P was mentioned as a 10% increase over standard levels, and +P+ had no “standards” at all.

I don’t normally buy any factory fodder so much of it holds no interest.. I don’t pay much attention to most of it because of that.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 02:08 PM

Fair question. In Marty's early years as a "meatball surgeon" at a firebase in Vietnam, doing his best to stabilize combat wounded to survive their air evac to a higher level of care he was issued an M1911A1 pistol with ball ammo.

In combat areas he said they carried all the time due to risk of infiltrators intending to kill US and ARVN medical personnel. I do not know whether he actually ever had to use his .45 in anger, but he had full confidence in it.

He related to me an incident where he used the pistol as an impact weapon "to sedate an emotionally disturbed casualty" where it was quite effective such that the subject recovered to be exfilled to a higher command authority for court martial. "The MPs would have simply killed the bastard, but he deserved due process.'

So Fackler had confidence in the old 1911 45 Auto with the 230 grain meatball load?
What would he possibly carry today if he were alive?

17nut

09-19-2022, 02:30 PM

Yes!

So the 40 S(hort) And W(eak) could could pose at the 10mm Auto's weak and anemic cousin.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 02:42 PM

Yes!

So the 40 S(hort) And W(eak) could could pose at the 10mm Auto's weak and anemic cousin.

In my Glock M27 a 200 grain Hornady XTP and a 200 grain cast I use will run with Hodgdons data 900 fps for the Hornady and 930 fps with the cast. This is actually chronographed.
I know, I know, I know I know that VIRGEL will say this means nothing but how fast would you have to push a 147 grain 9MM to equal the same momentum. I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.
No need to go there.

charlie b

09-19-2022, 04:13 PM

So Fackler had confidence in the old 1911 45 Auto with the 230 grain meatball load?
What would he possibly carry today if he were alive?

I would not try to make any conclusions from his choice. He was carrying a pistol that was readily available in the war zone he was in. If he was stationed with a British unit he probably would have carried a High Power (9mm). And both would have been loaded with the issue ball ammo. If he was at an AF base he might have had a choice of a .38 revolver, but, again, 1911's were far more common.

I would also not be surprised if he did not carry anything when not in uniform.

M-Tecs

09-19-2022, 04:19 PM

I would also not be surprised if he did not carry anything when not in uniform.

That would be fairly safe assumption. Different times and different threat levels than we face today.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 04:50 PM

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

M-Tecs

09-19-2022, 04:54 PM

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

What leads you to believe that? Currently when you're in the military with a rank lower than a General you carry what they issue you period. In the past it was allowed, or a blind eye looked away.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 04:58 PM

Just because the Military issues it doesn't mean he had confidence or didn't have confidence in it. Did he or didn't he.
What did he carry or would have carried in civilian life?
If he carried in civilian life what did he carry and what was the ammo?

Outpost75

09-19-2022, 05:36 PM

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

My post said he had FULL confidence in the .45 issued. Your comprehension is faulty.

When he was stationed at the Presidio of San Francisco the Letterman Institute was inside a secure area. Marty had quarters on post and no reason to carry. Post 9/11 gate guards had M9s for badge of authority and an AT4 available within reach for positive one-shot stops of VBIEDs.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 05:39 PM

My post said he had FULL confidence in the .45 issued. Your comprehension is faulty.

When he was stationed at the Presidio of San Francisco the Letterman Institute was inside a secure area. Marty had quarters on post and no reason to carry. Post 9/11 gate guards had M9s for badge of authority and an AT4 available within reach for positive one-shot stops of VBIEDs.

I was actually asking M Tecs. Just didn't quote him.

pettypace

09-19-2022, 05:46 PM

In my Glock M27 a 200 grain Hornady XTP and a 200 grain cast I use will run with Hodgdons date 900 fps for the Hornady and 930 fps with the cast. This is actually chronographed.
I know, I know, I know I know that VIRGEL will say this means nothing but how fast would you have to push a 147 grain 9MM to equal the same momentum. I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.
No need to go there.

Let me read that again slowly just to make sure I understand what you're getting at...

I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.

Tell the truth, MagMan. Did VIRGEL really, really, really, really shoot your momentum down as being insignificant?"

No need to go there.

Of course we need to go there. VIRGEL might be sick -- maybe caught a virus. (There's a lot of that going around.)

But let's see what VIRGEL actually does say about that 200 grain .40 caliber cast bullet load you mentioned:

https://rewebster.org/pics/40TC200_930c.png

Nope. VIRGEL says your Power Factor (just momentum by another name) is 186. Nothing insignificant about that!

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 05:52 PM

I know that I saw it the first time I played with it.
I know how power factor is figured
I know what power factor is. It is momentum. Bullet weight times velocity dives by 1000 to reduce it down.
I know some IDPA shooters. USPSA shooters too.
Believe it or not I have played with VIRGEL too and your monte carlo thing too.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 05:55 PM

https://www.ccidpa.org/idpa-power.html

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 06:07 PM

Pound seconds momentum is velocity times bullet weight divided by 225218.
225218 is 7000 times gravity 32.1740.

M-Tecs

09-19-2022, 06:08 PM

I was actually asking M Tecs. Just didn't quote him.

How would I know what is personal thoughts about 230 grain ball ammo are? For that matter why would I care?

G.I. 45 ball has a long history of actual usage. Data from actual usage has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 56-62% one shot stops depending on the study. Change the ball out to good quality hollow points and that goes up to well over 90%. Same for 9mm ball. Ball is in the mid-30% and in the low 90% will good hollow points.

Firsthand small game shooting with 45 Ball and Speer 200 grain JHP flying ashtrays out Colt Gold Cup in the 70's showed a significant performance differences between ball and JHP's. They were impressive in the 45 ACP but they were breathtaking out of my 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk at max velocities. They made the 357 125 grain JHP LE loads look anemic when shooting unopened confiscated beer cans.

When I deployed to combat zones I was only issued ball per normal rules of engagement. When the threat was anti-hijacking or anti-terrorist we would be issued hollow points for the 9mm's.

Ball ammo is never my first choice for SD as there are better choices for that application. That being said I have fully confidence that if need I could have got the job done with issued ball in the 38 Special, 9mm or 5.56. I was never issued a 45 in a combat zone.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 06:17 PM

In my above posts I said bullet weight and not mass. I used mass one time and got a severe scolding telling me mass cannot be weighed. So I didn't make that mistake again.

44MAG#1

09-19-2022, 06:51 PM

Energy can be figured by velocity times velocity divided by 450436 times bullet weight.
450436 is 7000 times 64.348.

M-Tecs

09-20-2022, 04:15 AM

This sums it up very well.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Conclusions
Looking at all of this data, it’s tempting to try to sift through the numbers and determine once and for all which load is The One Bullet To Rule Them All. If that kind of data analysis gets you excited, then go for it. If, on the other hand, you just want to find a decent load for your carry gun, you probably don’t need to go through all of that trouble. To the contrary, we did all of this work on these tests so you don’t have to obsess over the ballistic performance aspect of your carry ammo.

If the self-defense load you use is listed here, and you’re not confident in the results you’re seeing, just pick another one that performed at a level you’re more comfortable with. But keep in mind, even though the gelatin tests can tell us a lot, there’s plenty of things they don’t tell us. Ballistics testing doesn’t tell us anything about the felt recoil of a load. We also haven’t addressed accuracy or muzzle flash (which can be an issue in low light). And maybe most important of all, no gelatin test can tell you if a given load will run reliably in your own self-defense pistol. This is all stuff you’ll have to test on your own at the range with your gun.

Once you find a load that works, whatever you decide, try to keep all of this in perspective. Choice of caliber and bullet are not the most important aspects of successful self-defense. Awareness, proper mindset, marksmanship, and discernment of when to use your firearm are generally far more critical to your survival than choice of gear. Having said that, knowing your carry ammo works not only provides peace of mind, there’s a chance that choosing a solid defensive load could be the one factor that tips the scales in your favor in a fight for your life.

44MAG#1

09-20-2022, 08:18 AM

Being a curious type I have known about the luckygunner test for a while.

44MAG#1

09-20-2022, 08:29 AM

I believe that since I am in relic catagory myself I think I will stick to the pitiful 45 Auto in Semi Autos as a primary and in revolvers my 44 Mag with a slightly less than a wadcutter bullet at 700 fps.
I have learned a lot.

35remington

10-07-2022, 05:04 PM

Back in those days the data was not actually in the pressure range they thought it was. Thus the changes downward in charge weight.

Larry Gibson

10-07-2022, 08:48 PM

TNsailorman

10-08-2022, 12:28 PM

I have a .45acp revolver with a 4" barrel and a .357 mganum with a 3" barrel. They don't need or will get +P. Learned a long time aago that it is not needed. my .02 anyway, james

Stacts

10-09-2022, 09:33 AM

There are three calibers (that I know) that have a +P standard (.38 spcl, .45 ACP, 9x19). I have a .38 and a .45. I use +P in the .38 for three reasons.

1) The gun is rated for continual +P

2) .38 is a marginal cartridge for self defense. (If it will prevent argument: In my opinion)

3) +P .38 loadings offer more reliable expansion of hollow point ammo when fired from 2" snubbies.

I do not use +P ammo in my .45. This is for two reasons.

1) The gun is NOT rated for +P.

2) .45 standard pressure is sufficient for self defense and reliably expands hollow points at typical SD ranges.

As far as 9x19, I think its purpose was to better utilize the longer barrels of submachine guns. I've seen tests of 9mm +P where the +P ammo had identical or lower velocities than standard pressure ammo out of handguns (4" barrels or less). I haven't seen +P tested in carbines though...

On a random note, I have a box of .45 +P ammo from Hornady. 220 gr bullet at an advertised velocity of 990 FPS. Compare that with Winchester's advertised 880 for a 230 gr hollow point. That's a significant increase (assuming it's not just smoke up an anus).