With All The Talk

[44MAG#1]

With all the talk about how good the 38 Special Wadcutters are as far as a defensive round i have been doing some pondering.
Since I really love a M69 Smith and Wesson 44 Magnum 2.75 inch I have been thinking about carrying it full time now.
I have a load loaded in 44 Russian cases that consists of an Accurate Molds 250 grain that is not quite a Wadcutter but very close to it.
The aforementioned bullet will exit the barrel at 625 FPS and weighs 248 grain from my alloy with a .380" Meplat.
I believe it would be at least as good as the 38 special maybe slightly more.
VIRGEL only gives Wadcutter, TC, SWC and Mushroom in its choices.
Since the 44 bullet is not a true Wadcutter or a Truncated Cone i decided to just list Meplat diameter and choose Wadcutter setting in VIRGEL just like the 38 Special load.
I know that is more than likely wrong but i take full responsibility for my actions.
Here are 3 photos.
What do all of you say?
BTW the weight of the gun does not bother me at all.

304281

304282

304283

[shooting on a shoestring]

YES!
I think that’d work fine for a defensive combination under 25 yards. But I’d want to see it hit a target at 50 before I’d commit to carrying it. I’m thinking that slow of velocity and the accompanying slow rpm’s might let it destabilize before 50 yards.

Some will think that’s a bit much on penetration, but I’m thinking I’d rather let it make 2 drain holes and just not fire it if the perp is standing in front of people.

I’m going to guess you’re getting that slow velocity with a small charge of fast powder. And you’re using the short Russian case to eliminate some air space and get better, more consistent ignition. Nice work.

Personally I load my shorty 69 with 200 grain boolits and bump them up to 1050-1100 fps. I like more energy.

But you’re on a pretty well worn path with ballistics about like 455 Eley. It worked well for the Brits. It’ll work fine on our side of the pond too. That’s a big crushing meplat with lots of weight to push it through a bad guy.

I think the short 69 has a right to wear the moniker “Combat Revolver”.

[44MAG#1]

I will test them at 50 yards. Ive shot them at 50 at slightly under 700 FPS with no problems.

[pettypace]

The aforementioned bullet will exit the barrel at 625 FPS and weighs 248 grain from my alloy with a .380" Meplat.
I believe it would be at least as good as the 38 special maybe slightly more.


I've been trying to persuade VIRGEL to make convincing comparisons. But he's stupidly stubborn. (He is, after all, just an algorithm!.) Here's the extent of his cooperation so far, using your suggested load as the example:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_38_250_625.png

If you accept "MacPherson Wound Mass" as a reasonable measure of potential self-defense effectiveness, then it looks like your "aforementioned bullet" should be in the same league as .45 hardball or, as s.o.a.s. points out, the .455 Eley. But that's still a ways behind the classic .38 Special "FBI Load" or good 9mm JHP.

(Recall the two Fairbairn & Sykes anectotes in Shooting to Live about Shanghai cops emptying their guns (in one case a .45 ACP and in the other a .455 Eley) into miscreants and then having to chase them down to end the discussion by whacking the bad guys over the head with their gun butts. If it comes to that, you'll be ahead of the game with your model 69.)

You might also be ahead of the game with a full wadcutter to trade a little "excess" penetration for more wound mass. For example:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_43_220_600.png

[44MAG#1]

I've been trying to persuade VIRGEL to make convincing comparisons. But he's stupidly stubborn. (He is, after all, just an algorithm!.) Here's the extent of his cooperation so far, using your suggested load as the example:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_38_250_625.png

If you accept "MacPherson Wound Mass" as a reasonable measure of potential self-defense effectiveness, then it looks like your "aforementioned bullet" should be in the same league as .45 hardball or, as s.o.a.s. points out, the .455 Eley. But that's still a ways behind the classic .38 Special "FBI Load" or good 9mm JHP.

(Recall the two Fairbairn & Sykes anectotes in Shooting to Live about Shanghai cops emptying their guns (in one case a .45 ACP and in the other a .455 Eley) into miscreants and then having to chase them down to end the discussion by whacking the bad guys over the head with their gun butts. If it comes to that, you'll be ahead of the game with your model 69.)

You might also be ahead of the game with a full wadcutter to trade a little "excess" penetration for more wound mass. For example:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_43_220_600.png

If I understand what you are saying that a 44 caliber bullet with a Meplat slightly larger than a 38 caliber wadcutter weighing 247 grains traveling 625 FPS is behind a 38 Special wadcutter from a 2 inch 28 Special?
How could I get the 44 caliber revolver off it's knees then without a lot of recoil

[cainttype]

I’m unfamiliar with VIRGEL, but is the 38 weight value correct?… 250 seems pretty “heavy”.

BTW, I’d have no issue using that 44-248 as-is for defense, plinking, or hunting… Cast soft with a large, fragile, HP should disintegrate melons (or any other liquid-filled vessel) quite nicely at 700+ fps.

[44MAG#1]

I’m unfamiliar with VIRGEL, but is the 38 weight value correct?… 250 seems pretty “heavy”.

BTW, I’d have no issue using that 44-248 as-is for defense, plinking, or hunting… Cast soft with a large, fragile, HP should disintegrate melons (or any other liquid-filled vessel) quite nicely at 700+ fps.

Read my first post very carefully.
It is the key to this whole thread.

[cainttype]

I gave a detailed opinion on your question 4 days ago, in the “Magical Meplat” thread, post #70.
My previous comment here was two-fold… 1)To inquire if a mistake was made inserting values into a program I’m not familiar with, and 2)To opine that I’m a fan of larger diameter bullets AND meplats when expansion is non-existent, or not expected.

[cainttype]

I think by inputting the excessive weight in 38 caliber you get a larger mass index with VIRGEL simply because it should penetrate deeper than a larger diameter, same weight bullet with the same meplat diameter.
Adjusting the .358” input weights from 250 down to 200, or even 148, should lessen the predicted wound channel volume, if I understand the program.

[44MAG#1]

I think by inputting the excessive weight in 38 caliber you get a larger mass index with VIRGEL simply because it should penetrate deeper than a larger diameter, same weight bullet with the same meplat diameter.
Adjusting the .358” input weights from 250 down to 200, or even 148, should lessen the predicted wound channel volume, if I understand the program.

What excessive weight? I don't consider 250 excessive for the 44 caliber revolvers.
The weight ranges from 180 grains to 340 so actually it is slightly below middle which is 260 grains.

[cainttype]

Perhaps you should read what you just quoted.
The “excessive weight” reference was for the 38 caliber data input, and clearly stated.

[44MAG#1]

Perhaps you should read what you just quoted.
The “excessive weight” reference was for the 38 caliber data input, and clearly stated.

No one said for 38 caliber unless you call the Meplat caliber. You still did not read my first post.

[cainttype]

No one said for 38 caliber unless you call the Meplat caliber. You still did not read my first post.

I DID read your OP, which started with “With all the talk about how good the 38 Special Wadcutters are as far as a defensive round i have been doing some pondering.”… Which, by the way, I don’t recall anybody attempting to claim the 38 wadcutter as the ultimate anything, but rather discussing it’s potential from a hide-out compact.
Then predictions of Wound Mass Index from “VIRGEL” were added to the discussion. It was the input of 250 gr in the 38 bullet prediction I questioned.

To repeat, I gave an opinion 4 days ago on your “question” (before you brought it up here) in the “Magic Meplat” thread, post #70.
Perhaps you were too busy posting to actually read what was being said, but I’m sure you can find it still easily available for review.

If YOU were to “carefully” read what I’ve previously posted here you wouldn’t be asking the questions you seem to have.

[44MAG#1]

I DID read your OP, which started with “With all the talk about how good the 38 Special Wadcutters are as far as a defensive round i have been doing some pondering.”… Which, by the way, I don’t recall anybody attempting to claim the 38 wadcutter as the ultimate anything, but rather discussing it’s potential from a hide-out compact.
Then predictions of Wound Mass Index from “VIRGEL” were added to the discussion. It was the input of 250 gr in the 38 bullet prediction I questioned.

To repeat, I gave an opinion 4 days ago on your “question” (before you brought it up here) in the “Magic Meplat” thread, post #70.
Perhaps you were too busy posting to actually read what was being said, but I’m sure you can find it still easily available for review.

If YOU were to “carefully” read what I’ve previously posted here you wouldn’t be asking the questions you seem to have.
Please don't get into a wad. I stated in my first post the particulars I used.

[cainttype]

Don’t accuse others of anger just because you can’t follow a simple conversation.
Both YOU and pettypace posted VIRGEL predictions using “38” as input, so any question about the validity of those equations seems reasonable.
If anyone is getting into a “wad” it is you, when pressed on your very own comments.
If you cannot tolerate a reasoned, coherent discussion, perhaps you should avoid them.

[44MAG#1]

Don’t accuse others of anger just because you can’t follow a simple conversation.
Both YOU and pettypace posted VIRGEL predictions using “38” as input, so any question about the validity of those equations seems reasonable.
If anyone is getting into a “wad” it is you, when pressed on your very own comments.
If you cannot tolerate a reasoned, coherent discussion, perhaps you should avoid them.
The 38 revolvers are .357" diameter or so not .380". VIRGEL defaults to .35 with a 148 Wadcutter.
So still I have not gotten upset in the least. Still what I did is in my first post. Sorry it is misunderstood. But it is explained.
Sorry.

[cainttype]

Again…..
In your original post, your second “VIRGEL” input is for “38”, go look go look for yourself.
pettypace follows with another graph using “38”…. It isn’t complicated, if you can read.

We would hope that anyone attempting to load ammo understands that the 38 Special/357 Mag are actually .357”-358”. That has nothing to do with what was posted earlier, or the question of whether using a 250 grain weight was intentional, or a mistake.
At any rate, using that weight will DEFINITELY increase the penetration value, thereby skewing the results.

For the 3rd time, why pretend your “question” hasn’t been answered when it was answered at length 4 days ago in the “Magic Meplat” thread, that you penned a full 1/3 of over 70 replies??
Have you returned to read that post and found anything missing from your OP here?
Is your memory that short, or do you simply enjoy beating the same dead horse.

Maybe now, it is “explained”.

[44MAG#1]

Again…..
In your original post, your second “VIRGEL” input is for “38”, go look go look for yourself.
pettypace follows with another graph using “38”…. It isn’t complicated, if you can read.

We would hope that anyone attempting to load ammo understands that the 38 Special/357 Mag are actually .357”-358”. That has nothing to do with what was posted earlier, or the question of whether using a 250 grain weight was intentional, or a mistake.
At any rate, using that weight will DEFINITELY increase the penetration value, thereby skewing the results.

For the 3rd time, why pretend your “question” hasn’t been answered when it was answered at length 4 days ago in the “Magic Meplat” thread, that you penned a full 1/3 of over 70 replies??
Have you returned to read that post and found anything missing from your OP here?
Is your memory that short, or do you simply enjoy beating the same dead horse.

Maybe now, it is “explained”.

Here is what I said.
"decided to just list Meplat diameter and choose Wadcutter setting in VIRGEL just like the 38 Special load."
The VIRGEL for the 38 Special is at .35. not 38. 38 Special is .35 not .38.
Mine is SET AT .38 on VIRGEL on the VIRGEL data I used. I used the .38 MEPLAT diameter for the 44 since the VIRGEL doesn't list a bullet between TC and Wadcutter. Was that not what I said?

[pettypace]

If I understand what you are saying that a 44 caliber bullet with a Meplat slightly larger than a 38 caliber wadcutter weighing 247 grains traveling 625 FPS is behind a 38 Special wadcutter from a 2 inch 28 Special?
How could I get the 44 caliber revolver off it's knees then without a lot of recoil

Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying.

Given that the loads under discussion all meet the minimum FBI penetration requirement and assuming that "MacPherson wound mass" is a good measure of effective permanent cavity volume, then the numbers look like this:

Target wadcutter from a .38 snubby: 25 grams
.45 ACP Hardball: 27 grams
Your .380" meplat .44 at 625 f/s: 29 grams
The classic .38 Special FBI load: 37 grams
Full wadcutter .44 at 625 f/s: 37 grams

You may be the first person to ever ask how get a .44 Magnum "off its knees." But you're not gonna do much better than 37 grams without an expanding bullet and more recoil.

[44MAG#1]

Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying.

Given that the loads under discussion all meet the minimum FBI penetration requirement and assuming that "MacPherson wound mass" is a good measure of effective permanent cavity volume, then the numbers look like this:

Target wadcutter from a .38 snubby: 25 grams
.45 ACP Hardball: 27 grams
Your .380" meplat .44 at 625 f/s: 29 grams
The classic .38 Special FBI load: 37 grams
Full wadcutter .44 at 625 f/s: 37 grams

You may be the first person to ever ask how get a .44 Magnum "off its knees." But you're not gonna do much better than 37 grams without an expanding bullet and more recoil.
I understood.

[cainttype]

Here is what I said.
"decided to just list Meplat diameter and choose Wadcutter setting in VIRGEL just like the 38 Special load."
The VIRGEL for the 38 Special is at .35. not 38. 38 Special is .35 not .38.
Mine is SET AT .38 on VIRGEL on the VIRGEL data I used. I used the .38 MEPLAT diameter for the 44 since the VIRGEL doesn't list a bullet between TC and Wadcutter. Was that not what I said?

You argued that 38 wasn’t even mentioned.
You failed to recognize that my original question, to both you and pettypace, was whether the 38-250 was an intentional input, because it would skew the results either way.
You can’t base accurate predictions on inaccurate data points, so I was attempting to help.


From 4 days ago…

If the conversation returned to the original post discussing meplat, there are certain constants that just don’t go away. So, with the idea of comparing similar weight, caliber, and low velocity (typical SD pistol speeds) projectiles that travel through obstacles without tumbling, and don’t expand, certain traits will become common.
Streamlined bullets retain velocity through their flight better than similar weight/caliber blunt bullets because of resistance. It could be said that “crushing” more air slows the blunt bullet, limiting it’s range….. The same effect can be applied to other mediums, including flesh, bone, water…. You name it.
The “advantage” of larger meplat diameter in any medium is a larger “crush” cavity, permanent wound channel, although penetration is decreased…. Blowing a hole clean through something obviously negates that “disadvantage”…
The “advantage” in smaller meplats is better penetration, although the permanent wound channel diameter is decreased.

Although small meplat diameter differences can be regarded as “practically identical”, logic dictates that if a small meplat wound tract is measurably smaller than a LARGE meplat wound tract then meplats that are closer in diameter would also share that characteristic although measuring the difference in soft tissue might be difficult, at best.

The earlier question of what advantage/disadvantage bullets of different caliber sharing the same meplat diameter might have could immediately go to weight and momentum breaking bone, penetrating, etc…. But if we ignore that altogether, for the sake of the thread’s apparent purpose, we can still see where bullet diameter alone “might” prove useful.
Imagine a nerve, or bone that could disrupt a nerve (spinal column vertebrae, for instance) being “almost scraped” with no ill effect by a lesser diameter projectile…. A significantly larger diameter, with the exact same placement, would tear that nerve, or possibly clip that bone well-enough to disrupt the entire nervous system.

Everything is a compromise.
Everybody has to chose exactly where they are willing to compromise.

[44MAG#1]

You argued that 38 wasn’t even mentioned.
You failed to recognize that my original question, to both you and pettypace, was whether the 38-250 was an intentional input, because it would skew the results either way.
You can’t base accurate predictions on inaccurate data points, so I was attempting to help.


From 4 days ago…

No where did I say 38 wasn't mentioned. I said "believe it would be at least as good as the 38 special maybe slightly more.
VIRGEL only gives Wadcutter, TC, SWC and Mushroom in its choices.
Since the 44 bullet is not a true Wadcutter or a Truncated Cone i decided to just list Meplat diameter and choose Wadcutter setting in VIRGEL just like the 38 Special load.
Show me where I said 38 wasn't mentioned in VIRGEL.

[cainttype]

No one said for 38 caliber unless you call the Meplat caliber. You still did not read my first post.

When you use “38” as your input data you are asking the program to give you results on 38 caliber predictions.
The results from inaccurate input are usually meaningless, in a practical sense….


Enough time wasted here.
Good luck to all.

[44MAG#1]

Isn't the flat end on a wadcutter a Meplat which is flat? Isn't that called a Meplat or is it called a flat end?
It is entered as 35/100 is it not? So????
My flat end is 38/100. Flat, flat,.

[Rapier]

If you know someone with a electronic timer, Shoot five shots at 10 yards as fast as you can, to hit 5 bowling pin paper cut outs, increase your velocity until your time slows, due to impaired recovery. Actually shoot with a timer to see the real results.
I keep 2#s of 452AA around just for these loads, it gives a low pulse level with 252 grain SWC cast 45 bullets. WST will do the same if you can find it. A heavy bullet with a low recoil pulse will save me 1/10 second and that is the diffrence between also coming and winning a match. My revolver is a 25-2, same frame as a 29.

[44MAG#1]

If you know someone with a electronic timer, Shoot five shots at 10 yards as fast as you can, to hit 5 bowling pin paper cut outs, increase your velocity until your time slows, due to impaired recovery. Actually shoot with a timer to see the real results.
I keep 2#s of 452AA around just for these loads, it gives a low pulse level with 252 grain SWC cast 45 bullets. WST will do the same if you can find it. A heavy bullet with a low recoil pulse will save me 1/10 second and that is the diffrence between also coming and winning a match. My revolver is a 25-2, same frame as a 29.

Thanks for the info but I have Semi Autos for speed shooting. I am not a whizbang in speed with a revolver but no slouch either.