The Magical Meplat and Handgun Boolit Effectiveness

[pettypace]

Judging by the power of the "meplat" to blow unrelated threads off track (f'rinstance) (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?446592-44-Special-DAO), I thought the "Magical Meplat" really deserved its own thread. Here it is...

To get the boolit spinning, let's start with somewhat different views from two well-regarded experts on the subject. Here's a diagram from Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (page 410) which should easily satisfy all four criteria for "fair use" of copyrighted material:

https://rewebster.org/pics/hatchersNose.jpg

Note that Hatcher's numbers for "relative disruptive power" come from measuring the volumes of the holes the bullets punched in blocks of clay and that "It does not follow that the efficiency on flesh or bone follow these numbers..."

In his book Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics & the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma Duncan MacPherson basically concludes that the full, sharp-edged wadcutter crushes about 50% more gelatin than any of the other nose shapes and that differences among the other shapes are insignificant. However, MacPherson does suggest that when the flat nose of a bullet approaches the full diameter of the bullet, it makes sense (for estimating penetration and wound mass) to treat that bullet as a wadcutter of the diameter of the meplat.

[44MAG#1]

Let me ask you this. Let's take the 9MM. You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?
Same thing for a 44 Special a 246 Gr RN or a 250 "Keith" at the same velocity? I am ONLY talking about the bullets mention in both examples ONLY. NOTHING ELSE. What would you choose?
BTW let's go further with the 44 Special what would you choose in this scenario, a 250 gr cast with a .250" Meplat or a 250 gr. Cast with a .300" Meplat at the same velocity?
BTW again. If one is talking about an alloy that is soft enough to change shape that is NOT keeping the MEPLAT question in focus. That puts it into the deforming category which would be in the Mushroom category.
This is about MEPLAT on a bullet that is deformation resistant.

[rintinglen]

When killing gelatin, a flat nose will kill it deader than a round nose, and the bigger the flat nose, the deader it gets.

Years ago I heard an emergency ward trauma surgeon disparage the notion of "magic" bullets. He worked at Rancho Dominguez Hospital back before its closure and he was scornful of anyone claiming to identify a handgun bullet type or caliber from an examination of a wound. He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it.

Save for shotguns. He believed that shotguns at close range made for clearly identifiable, massive wounds that caused "horrific trauma" even when not immediately fatal.

All that being said, I'd still go with the bigger, ending meplat, having seen the effect of a .357 magnum that flattened out to just under a 1/2" while traversing the thigh of a 6'2" 260 pound man.

[44MAG#1]

Let's use equal placement idea. Equally good or equally bad. Not bad for one and good for the other
Bell killed many Elephant with a 7X57 Mauser.

[pettypace]

Let me ask you this. Let's take the 9MM. You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?
Same thing for a 44 Special a 246 Gr RN or a 250 "Keith" at the same velocity? I am ONLY talking about the bullets mention in both examples ONLY. NOTHING ELSE. What would you choose?
BTW let's go further with the 44 Special what would you choose in this scenario, a 250 gr cast with a .250" Meplat or a 250 gr. Cast with a .300" Meplat at the same velocity?
BTW again. If one is talking about an alloy that is soft enough to change shape that is NOT keeping the MEPLAT question in focus. That puts it into the deforming category which would be in the Mushroom category.
This is about MEPLAT on a bullet that is deformation resistant.

This is what is sometimes called "The distinction without a difference fallacy." For example, in Hatcher's diagram above, it would be the distinction between bullets #3 and #4. If I had to choose between bullets #3 and #4, I'll take #6. Hatcher and MacPherson would agree on that even if 44MAG#1 still wants to argue the point.

[44MAG#1]

So if you couldn't get bullet 6 you would go with bullet 1. Because bullets 3 and 4 are no better than bullet 1?


This is what is sometimes called "The distinction without a difference fallacy." For example, in Hatcher's diagram above, it would be the distinction between bullets #3 and #4. If I had to choose between bullets #3 and #4, I'll take #6. Hatcher and MacPherson would agree on that even if 44MAG#1 still wants to argue the point.

[DougGuy]

If you want something to cease breathing quickly, use the biggest meplat you can use for the caliber.

All of these are loaded in 45 Schofield brass, the three on the right are all 250gr LBT offerings, of the three my choice for hunting is the far right load, LBT 250gr Ogival Wad Cutter.

This load chrony'ed at 1200fps, just under 23kpsi pressure (according to QL) did not have the ability to do any gelatin testing but most of us have seen enough gelatin results to agree the far right would probably create the biggest cavity.

303973

[44MAG#1]

So bullets 6,8 and 11 aren't good? Their Meplat isn't big enough?

[Outpost75]

Observing from game results, using .44-.45 revolvers on deer, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter. The LBT wide flat noses and similar designs by Accurate are ideal.

The Accurate 45-264H is my design for the .45 Auto Rim and .45 Colt, using 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim for the Colt M1917, 6.5 grains for the .45 Colt New Service and 7.5 grains in the Ruger Blackhawk, all with 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals sized .454" with 50-50 beeswax and olive oil.

[44MAG#1]

Let say it's not a soft alloy. What them. Is the Meplat of .7 of the bullet diameter no better than a lesser diameter than half bullet diameter


From game results, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter.

[DougGuy]

So bullets 6,8 and 11 aren't good? Their Meplat isn't big enough?

6, 8, 11 are plenty good enough. 6 is a 250gr LSWCHP GC boolit from Rimrock, it's the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" 45 Colt ammo.

Looking at the crimp groove placement for 12, 13, 14, they leave the most case capacity when seated to the crimp groove, these loads are for a medium frame Ruger New Model Vaquero which has a pressure ceiling of 23kpsi, same as 45ACP+P. I was able to get to 1200fps with 21.5gr H110 and WLP primer and still stay under the pressure ceiling. Couple that with the largest meplat of the bunch, should make a very good hunting load.

[44MAG#1]

So, in saying that, Meplat diameter plays a part in killing power?


6, 8, 11 are plenty good enough. 6 is a 250gr LSWCHP GC boolit from Rimrock, it's the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" 45 Colt ammo.

Looking at the crimp groove placement for 12, 13, 14, they leave the most case capacity when seated to the crimp groove, these loads are for a medium frame Ruger New Model Vaquero which has a pressure ceiling of 23kpsi, same as 45ACP+P. I was able to get to 1200fps with 21.5gr H110 and WLP primer and still stay under the pressure ceiling. Couple that with the largest meplat of the bunch, should make a very good hunting load.

[Outpost75]

Let say it's not a soft alloy. What them. Is the Meplat of .7 of the bullet diameter no better than a lesser diameter than half bullet diameter

Great question! A 0.7 meplat like original Keith type, is ideal, being a well proven killer on large game which doesn't need to expand. Straight-through, deep penetration, with good crush characteristics and no tumbling!

[Larry Gibson]

"He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it."

Concurring with the above, with some reservations, and given the OPs scenario I would use either bullet in either cartridge and shoot the miscreant in the groin/pelvic area then move away from him as he collapses.

[rintinglen]

Let's say we lose our minds and make our bullets out of soft steel with a Brinell hardness of ~120. Each weighs exactly 162 grains. We make one that tapers to a needle point and one that has a meplat as flat as pane of glass. We fire them from the same barrel at precisely the same velocity, exactly 926.2 fps.

The needle point will penetrate soft body armor better and the better ballistic coefficient will allow for a flatter trajectory. The flat point will cause more tissue disruption but will destabilize sooner due to its inferior aerodynamic abilities.

Or we could acknowledge the millions spent on developing hollow-point expanding bullets that function to create the largest frontal area possible was done not merely as a sales gimmick but as an acknowledgement that size matters when attempting to destroy tissue with kinetic energy.

[44MAG#1]

So we are using placement instead of the Meplat lethality question?


"He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it."

Concurring with the above, with some reservations, and given the OPs scenario I would use either bullet in either cartridge and shoot the miscreant in the groin/pelvic area then move away from him as he collapses.

[44MAG#1]

So we are jumping from one extreme to the other with no in-between?

Let's say we lose our minds and make our bullets out of soft steel with a Brinell hardness of ~120. Each weighs exactly 162 grains. We make one that tapers to a needle point and one that has a meplat as flat as pane of glass. We fire them from the same barrel at precisely the same velocity, exactly 926.2 fps.

The needle point will penetrate soft body armor better and the better ballistic coefficient will allow for a flatter trajectory. The flat point will cause more tissue disruption but will destabilize sooner due to its inferior aerodynamic abilities.

Or we could acknowledge the millions spent on developing hollow-point expanding bullets that function to create the largest frontal area possible was done not merely as a sales gimmick but as an acknowledgement that size matters when attempting to destroy tissue with kinetic energy.

[BLAHUT]

Head shot, end of therate, learn to hit what you aim at>

[44MAG#1]

To me that would pertain to a question concerning bullet placement and not Meplat effectiveness.
Although Meplat effectiveness can be effective there too.


Head shot, end of therate, learn to hit what you aim at>

[Larry Gibson]

So we are using placement instead of the Meplat lethality question?

Your sceanrio is; "You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?"

What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used. Same could be said for two shots to the head.......

If you've a miscreant coming at you with a knife from 15 feet away neither of the bullet shapes from either cartridge is going to "stop" the miscreant before he reaches you with any "center mass" shot unless the spinal column is severely damaged. Thus, how much "damage" is done by the shape of either bullet becomes a moot point, given your scenario. That scenario is much different than what either bullet from either cartridge may do "killing" a game animal. If you've studied enough actual shooting scenarios with those two cartridges and bullet shapes, you'll find either cartridge with either bullet stands about a 50+/- % chance of "stopping" the average miscreant with "center mass" hits. However, If that miscreant is a psycho or hyped up on drugs then neither cartridge with either bullet is going to "stop" him with 2 "center mass" shots before he gets to you. Two hits with either cartridge to the groin/pelvis will.

[44MAG#1]

Okay, so with you saying that what if it was a 45 Auto with a choice of a RN or a FN with a .7 of bullet diameter Meplat? So, with a 9MM if the only choice you had were a RN or FN ammo you couldn't care less what it is loaded with due to the poor stopping power delivered by it to begin with, with bullet shape?

Your sceanrio is; "You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?"

What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used. Same could be said for two shots to the head.......

If you've a miscreant coming at you with a knife from 15 feet away neither of the bullet shapes from either cartridge is going to "stop" the miscreant before he reaches you with any "center mass" shot unless the spinal column is severely damaged. Thus, how much "damage" is done by the shape of either bullet becomes a moot point, given your scenario. That scenario is much different than what either bullet from either cartridge may do "killing" a game animal. If you've studied enough actual shooting scenarios with those two cartridges and bullet shapes, you'll find either cartridge with either bullet stands about a 50+/- % chance of "stopping" the average miscreant with "center mass" hits. However, If that miscreant is a psycho or hyped up on drugs then neither cartridge with either bullet is going to "stop" him with 2 "center mass" shots before he gets to you. Two hits with either cartridge to the groin/pelvis will.

[murf205]

"What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used."

And, I used to think a football helmet to that area hurt!! Mine hurt just to think of getting shot there.

[murf205]

Observing from game results, using .44-.45 revolvers on deer, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter. The LBT wide flat noses and similar designs by Accurate are ideal.

The Accurate 45-264H is my design for the .45 Auto Rim and .45 Colt, using 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim for the Colt M1917, 6.5 grains for the .45 Colt New Service and 7.5 grains in the Ruger Blackhawk, all with 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals sized .454" with 50-50 beeswax and olive oil.

You gotta' love those boolits with big flatties on the front end. I like your 45-264H and I would wager it loads easily with the small bevel base. My 45 auto rim/Colt boolit is the 45-253M. When you shoot a target with a heavy cardboard backer at 50 yds, it sounds off with a resounding SMACK. Thank goodness I've never had to shoot a bad guy but I can't see where either one would do him any good. BUT....if a RN was all I had I'd take that over a knife any day, especially where Larry said to put them.

[sixshot]

Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

[44MAG#1]

That senario was corney but had the idea to get people to think. I know a person with a knife at 15 feet can cut, maim, kill someone that has a gun. I am not the most intelligent person by a longshot but not totally dumb either..
The question was on Meplat and it's "Magical" properties. While there are no magic bullets most of us would select a FN bullet if faced with a lunatic with a knife or gun if a RN or a FN is all we had. Then some brings up bullet placement like it is some revelation when I mentioned Karamojo Bell and his 7X57 Mauser and his Elephant kills which was pointing to the all time known idea that bullet placement is paramount.
Funny thing is the Meplat thing doesn't want to be addressed so the only bullet designs evidentially should only be RN, WC and a mushrooming bullet.
That is my take away.


Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

[charlie b]

I'd agree with you except for semi-autos and the reliability of WC designs.

Personally, if I am casting the bullets for self defense and most hunting, I like the SWC or WFN designs. If I am buying them I go to something that is well engineered for the task, whether is it a specialized hollow point or a solid.

And, yeah, if you need to stop someone it takes a well placed shot and enough penetration.

[HWooldridge]

Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

We did this exercise in my CCW class. The instructor was ex-military and very proficient. He asked for a volunteer to come at him with a rubber knife so I raised my hand. I “stuck” him every time from 20 feet and closer, unless he already had his hand on his weapon. He wasn’t offended by those results and used the demo to make the point to the class that you best be paying attention if someone confronts you - it can all go south in a heartbeat. I also used the “jailhouse rush” - which is leading with the weak side shoulder and hiding the knife in the strong hand. We were also in a well-lit, sterile classroom where everyone was friendly but most street fights take place at night.

I carry a five shot S&W revolver, loaded with 158 SWC boolits because it’s light and I can get it out quickly. I would clearly be at a disadvantage dueling with someone at 50 yards but I’m not overly concerned about that situation.

[44MAG#1]

Back to the magic of Meplats and the wounding ability of them?

[GhostHawk]

In my life I have shot a few grouse and a few pigeon's at closer than ideal range.

The term I like is "Bloody Rat Hole" Even a .410 can leave a hole almost big enough to stick your hand in.
12 ga you can go in up to the wrist for sure.

Ohhh and I agree with Blahut, shoot em in the head. The eyeball preferably. Even if it is not instantly fatal they are going to have bigger problems than they had before. And if they should somehow for some reason get up and start coming at you again. Shoot em in the other eye. At that point you should be able to dodge them.

[M-Tecs]

Have shot a fair amount of game with bullets that are not expanding due to lower velocities I am 100% convinced that the larger the Meplat the more energy transfer.

The British Empire in the late 1800's shot a lot of people and did a lot of development of manstopper bullets. The most effective per their actual experience was the double ended hollow point wadcutter design. It was so effective it was deemed to cruel on the world stage so it was changed to just a flat point wadcutter design that saw very limited or no combat use for the same reason.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

It was about this time that the British Government became fixated with "stopping power" (remember the .303 Mk III - "Dum Dum" was approved for service in 1897 and it wasn’t until the 1899 Hague Convention that such ammunition was considered, well, unsporting.) This trend extended to the .455 revolver ammunition and, as a result, the Mark III .455 cartridge appeared in 1898. This has the same .760 ins case but the bullet had a deep nose cavity which reduced its weight to around 220 grains – referred to as the "Manstopper" bullet. Cordite was again the propellant of choice. Some Mark III cases were later loaded with Mark II (conical lead) bullets.

Obviously production of the Mark III was overtaken by international events and sentiments. It was removed from service in 1900 and the Mark II cartridge was re-instated as a stop-gap measure. Some lengthy experimentation then took place to come up with a more effective bullet and it wasn’t until 12 years later (1912) that the .455 Mark IV cartridge emerged. This used the same case as the previous marks, with a cordite charge and the bullet was 220 grains but with a completely flat nose – basically a full wadcutter in today’s terms. At this point it should be noted that the collector may encounter .455 cartridges which have a bullet nose that is slightly rounded rather than completely flat. These are not Mark IV rounds but commercial target rounds sometimes loaded on surplus military cases.

The same fear that had resulted in the Mark III "Manstopper" being removed from service resurfaced with the "wadcutter" Mark IV. As a result, the Mark II, reintroduced when the Mark III was withdrawn, remained the service cartridge until the introduction of the Mark VI (see below).

[pmer]

Why not move forward and step to his weak side and trip him up as he stumbles by. At that point he's so pissed he won't be able to do anything.

[44MAG#1]

Another great answer to the original post.


Why not move forward and step to his weak side and trip him up as he stumbles by. At that point he's so pissed he won't be able to do anything.

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, so with you saying that what if it was a 45 Auto with a choice of a RN or a FN with a .7 of bullet diameter Meplat? So, with a 9MM if the only choice you had were a RN or FN ammo you couldn't care less what it is loaded with due to the poor stopping power delivered by it to begin with, with bullet shape?

Not saying that at all. I would take the same groin/pelvic shot regardless of whether it was with a 45 ACP, 44 magnum or any handgun for PD. You're missing the point; the point is to stop the miscreant from reaching me period. whether or not the size of one meplat is more effective than a RN is moot. It's not about which bullet is more "effective" it's about incapacitating the miscreant.

If hunting game animals or varmints it's a different story. But they were not in your scenario. If you want an answer to that then change the scenario.

[pmer]

Yeah the trouble is you are probably stuck doing what ever your first thought was at the time.

[HWooldridge]

If meplat size was the magic answer, everyone would be shooting wadcutters, to the exclusion of all other designs.

[44MAG#1]

If meplat size was the magic answer, everyone would be shooting wadcutters, to the exclusion of all other designs.

So with that being said you would pick a RN if no Wadcutter was available over a reasonable sized meplat FN bullet in a deformation resistant bullet?

[Jtarm]

If you want something to cease breathing quickly, use the biggest meplat you can use for the caliber.

All of these are loaded in 45 Schofield brass, the three on the right are all 250gr LBT offerings, of the three my choice for hunting is the far right load, LBT 250gr Ogival Wad Cutter.

This load chrony'ed at 1200fps, just under 23kpsi pressure (according to QL) did not have the ability to do any gelatin testing but most of us have seen enough gelatin results to agree the far right would probably create the biggest cavity.

303973

How wide is the meplat on the LBT OGW?

[HWooldridge]

So with that being said you would pick a RN if no Wadcutter was available over a reasonable sized meplat FN bullet in a deformation resistant bullet?

That depends on the caliber. The 45 ACP RN has a reputation for working well as a stopper of all things alive - and generally feeds more reliably in stock pistols so I would be happy with RN in that scenario.

I’ll turn my statement into a question for you, why isn’t everyone shooting full wadcutters?

[44MAG#1]

Why are you asking me? Please explain and I will try to answer.



That depends on the caliber. The 45 ACP RN has a reputation for working well as a stopper of all things alive - and generally feeds more reliably in stock pistols so I would be happy with RN in that scenario.

I’ll turn my statement into a question for you, why isn’t everyone shooting full wadcutters?

[44MAG#1]

I will say this I have nine 45 Autos. Six 1911's and 3 Glocks and carry a 230 grain version of the Saeco 058 without any modifications to the guns.
But I realized it is not a destructive bullet.

[M-Tecs]

If meplat size was the magic answer, everyone would be shooting wadcutters, to the exclusion of all other designs.

No magic answers. Like most things in life the "best" is nothing more than a series of compromises. The flat nose design it good at transferring energy but ballistically not so much. Same for functioning in MOST autoloaders and most other non-revolver designs. Even in revolvers they don't work very well in speedloaders. With normal twist rates they tend to lose accuracy at distance.

[M-Tecs]

That depends on the caliber. The 45 ACP RN has a reputation for working well as a stopper of all things alive - and generally feeds more reliably in stock pistols so I would be happy with RN in that scenario.

I’ll turn my statement into a question for you, why isn’t everyone shooting full wadcutters?

Per Julian Hatchers theory of Relative Stopping Power 45 ACP ball was rated at 56% while 9mm Ball was rated at 30%. With today's hollow points both the 9mm and 45 ACP are rated over 90%.

As to why wadcutters are not used for much other than cutting holes in paper is simple. That would be because their disadvantages outweighs their advantages for most applications.

[HWooldridge]

Per Julian Hatchers theory of Relative Stopping Power 45 ACP ball was rated at 56% while 9mm Ball was rated at 30%. With today's hollow points both the 9mm and 45 ACP are rated over 90%.

As to why wadcutters are not used for much other than cutting holes in paper is simple. That would be because their disadvantages outweighs their advantages for most applications.

It was a rhetorical question in response to an earlier post - I’m aware nothing is perfect. That’s why there are so many choices, and everything is a compromise.

On a mildly related subject, I learned today that the San Antonio PD will shortly be issued 9mm pistols to replace their current .40’s. The beat cops are not happy because the .40’s have a good reputation for punching through car doors and windshields. Most don’t want to trade that for a few more rounds but the brass thought differently.

And before anyone asks, I have no idea if either caliber has a meplat in the issued rounds…:mrgreen:

[sixshot]

Of course some amount of meplat is important, if you look at the chart at the beginning you can see it certainly makes a difference but it can also be over rated compared to accuracy. I've taken many, many animals with the 41, 44 & 45 Colt revolvers, from deer, elk, antelope, bears, Lion, moose and many animals in Africa like Wildebeest, Gemsbok, zebra, Kudu & Cape Buffalo and I can tell you that almost every one was taken with one shot, using cast bullets although the PH's do like the "finisher", second shot just for good measure.
Having said all this I've never had a PH ever ask me anything about "meplat" but all of them have ask me about ACCURACY!

Dick

[44MAG#1]

Can we ALL agree that ACCURACY is important?
I will agree.

[HWooldridge]

Can we ALL agree that ACCURACY is important?
I will agree.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[44MAG#1]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Every thread started about handgun power is reduced to either accuracy or shot placement. WE all KNOW ACCURACY and SHOT PLACEMENT are very important.

[Bigslug]

I'm utterly convinced big meplats are more fun to explode water bottles with. As to them having that same kind of magnified effect on meaty tissue, I'm not really all that convinced.

I watched through binos as my Dad perfectly shot his 2014 buck TWICE with the RCBS .45-70 405gr. FNGC bullet cast of a hard alloy and driven to something like 1900 fps. That bullet has a meplat of .27"/60%, but suffice to say, it had significantly more steam at 50 yards than any of the handguns we're discussing do at the muzzle.

First shot went broadside through the left. Deer started doing it's death circle and I was in the process of starting to say we were good to go when Dad hit it again through the right side probably something less than ten seconds after the first - - which put it down. On opening the deer up, one of the two was through the rear third of the heart, and the other was less than two inches behind it. Neither wound track made my eyes widen. They were probably about the diameter of a U.S. quarter; perhaps a little bigger. This was not an LFN or WFN meplat for a .45-70, which would have been .30" or .34", respectively, but it IS about the same meplat as Keith's vaunted .44 SWC, impacting at a higher speed than the typical .44 handgun is capable of. The deer was somehow NOT vaporized as if hit by one of Captain Kirk's photon torpedoes.

Granted, the deer was not going to get any deader, but in the context of fending off a short-range knife assault: I am NOBODY'S poster child for physical fitness, and I can cover the much-discussed 21 feet in about a second and a half from a standing start. I've seen this deer and several others take roughly this ten seconds to fall over after having their cardiovascular system disrupted by .30-06-class rifle rounds WELL beyond the "pee wee league" capabilities of handguns. I therefore DO NOT think more meplat from a pistol - especially at the "duty" power levels - is going to be THE deciding factor in saving you from a bayonet charge.

Make a hole deep enough to go through something important. Preferably make several. . . and continue making them, all the while trying to stay out of your attacker's way long enough for the bounce to go out of their bungee.

[44MAG#1]

I would venture a guess that even SP or HP bullets have failed in some way too. There are outliers in every situation. Just like the thing Phil Shoemaker pulled off.

[Kosh75287]

Above a certain bore diameter, projectile configuration in handguns may not matter that much (unless hunting game). I AM still a major believer in wide meplats, which is why my .45 ACP defense loads consist of a 215 gr. SAECO #58 PC-SWC over a "serious" charge of Unique or BE-86. I would not be afraid to tackle a Texas whitetail with this load out to 50 yards from my 1911.
If I could post an image of one, it would explain a lot. Since I don't speak "imgur", I think trying to post an image is without purpose. I invite the interested to look it up. Missouri Bullet Co. makes them, and they're SUPERB bullets.

[44MAG#1]

Above a certain bore diameter, projectile configuration in handguns may not matter that much (unless hunting game). I AM still a major believer in wide meplats, which is why my .45 ACP defense loads consist of a 215 gr. SAECO #58 PC-SWC over a "serious" charge of Unique or BE-86. I would not be afraid to tackle a Texas whitetail with this load out to 50 yards from my 1911.
If I could post an image of one, it would explain a lot. Since I don't speak "imgur", I think trying to post an image is without purpose. I invite the interested to look it up. Missouri Bullet Co. makes them, and they're SUPERB bullets.

I have a 230 grain version of the Saeco 058 bullet in flat base that I like.
Of course it's flat nose is of naught.
I should have just stayed with a RN.
304128

[pettypace]

I have a 230 grain version of the Saeco 058 bullet in flat base that I like.
Of course it's flat nose is of naught.
I should have just stayed with a RN.
304128

On the other hand, if the meplat is everything, then what's the difference between the .45 ACP on the left and the .38 S&W on the right?

https://rewebster.org/pics/meplatMatters.jpg

[44MAG#1]

On the other hand, if the meplat is everything, then what's the difference between the .45 ACP on the left and the .38 S&W on the right?

https://rewebster.org/pics/meplatMatters.jpg

I would say pushed at the same velocity very little. That is because you are comparing a WADCUTTER and NON WADCUTTER. Now if you reduce the size of the Meplat on the bullet on the right to the same percentage of Meplat as on the left cartridge the one on the left would have a slight edge. Would YOU want as much edge as you can get? Now if you are talking about a wadcutter in the left cartridge then it would have the edge over the right. Would YOU want as much EDGE as you can get.
Or do we go by what Bell and Shoemaker did ?
BTW before it is mention again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again bullet PLACEMENT trump's everything. Even my stupid beliefs and your VIRGEL IS TRUMPED.

[pettypace]

BTW before it is mention again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again bullet PLACEMENT trump's everything. Even my stupid beliefs and your VIRGEL IS TRUMPED.

Stopping power (assuming it exists at all) is a hedge against the very real possibility that shot placement might be less than ideal under adverse conditions.

It makes no more sense to say that shot placement trumps stopping power than to say that careful driving trumps auto insurance.

[44MAG#1]

[QUOTE

It makes no more sense to say that shot placement trumps stopping power than to say that careful driving trumps auto insurance.[/QUOTE]
So now you are saying shot placement doesn't contribute to stopping the evil?

[pettypace]

So now you are saying shot placement doesn't contribute to stopping the evil?

Where did you read that?

[44MAG#1]

Where did you read that?

While you didn't clearly articulate it it was there vailed to indicate it.
Due to placement what has more stopping power a 22 RF to the brain or my 44 Mag to the big toe?
While mathematically the 44 Mag is superior to the 22 RF due to shot placement it trumped the 44 Mag.
At the Kentucky Derby if a horse beats another crossing the finish line by two feet the horse that is ahead by two feet trumped the one that was behind.

[pettypace]

While you didn't clearly articulate it it was there vailed to indicate it.
Due to placement what has more stopping power a 22 RF to the brain or my 44 Mag to the big toe?
While mathematically the 44 Mag is superior to the 22 RF due to shot placement it trumped the 44 Mag.
At the Kentucky Derby if a horse beats another crossing the finish line by two feet the horse that is ahead by two feet trumped the one that was behind.

But what does the Kentucky Derby, or .22 RF in the brain, or .44 Magnums in the toe have to do with the topic of this thread?

[44MAG#1]

But what does the Kentucky Derby, or .22 RF in the brain, or .44 Magnums in the toe have to do with the topic of this thread?

You and I both know why you started this thread. The other are oblivious. i ask about the effectiveness of meplat diameter in wounding capabilities and you played it off simply because of VIRGEL not paying much attention to it. I wondered if with a given bullet of a Meplat of .250" is a effective as a .300" and was promptly bushed off. then you wanted book chapter and verse on the writings and proof by EXPERTS giving written and concrete evidence of the larger the Meplat the more effective a flat nose bullet is. Evidentally all of us that like larger Meplat bullets short of a WADCUTTER has been duped according to the EXPERTS that VIRGEL was patterened after.
I guess any Meplat between RN and WADCUTTER is a waste of time.
So are all of us that like FLATNOSE bullets mistaken????
The only bullets worthwhile are Mushroom, RN and WADUTTER is what I have learned.

[44MAG#1]

Pettyplace.

Lets ask this, how many have downloaded VIRGEL, uses it to determine their carry ammo, and have complete confidence in it?
How many people total have downloaded it? Do you know?
Please, if you have anymore questions to me directly, please PM me as i would say the MODERATORS are watching this thread like a hawk.

[charlie b]

This all reminds me of an article on the .45LC a long time ago. It was discussing various loads and included loads for Rugers and .454 Casull chambers. An interview from an African hunting guide revealed that his favorite backup pistol was a Ruger BH in .45LC shooting heavy loads with a 300grain cylinder of hard lead alloy (DEWC). He claimed it was great for use on lions and buffalo in the brush.

Of course, I suspect his skills with bullet placement had a lot to do with the effectiveness of the weapon.

[sixshot]

Meplat certainly plays a big role in taking game animals, especially large ones but it can also be over done if you choose to do so. I have a friend who took an Elephant one year with his FA 454 using a well known hard cast bullet, shooting the Elephant in the head. Two years later he was back in Africa with the same intentions & the same loads....almost. The bullet had been changed slightly, the meplat had been increased just a bit but he said it was noticeable. Taking almost the same shot as 2 years before the bullet failed to penetrate the skull & the chase was on, for 3 days, perhaps 4, I can't remember. Anyway, the Elephant was found several times but no shot was ever presented but you could actually see the bullet protruding from the skull. Same 454 Casull, same load, same bullet but just a bit wider meplat.
Phil Shoemaker is one of the most respected guides in all of Alaska, a reputation well deserved. Two things happened when he shot that huge bear that saved his bacon, one is that the bear was focused on his clients, the other is that he was shooting the bear from the side of the head, not front on. He was able to get good penetration with those good Buffalo Bore loads shooting from the side, something that most likely wouldn't have happened had the bear been facing him.

Dick

[Daekar]

To those asking why everybody isn't shooting full wadcutters, it's because semi autos can't feed them and their poor aerodynamic efficiency at range.

Neither are good reasons not to carry them in a modern defense revolver. Semis require precisely manufactured bullets to be effective because they won't feed when loaded with large meplat rounds, and most defensive shootings are at close enough range that the aerodynamics of a full wadcutter don't matter.
The 70% rule is a compromise that tends to result in effective bullets that don't suffer from drag and instability quite the same.
I would take a RF bullet for any carry situation regardless of whether the bullet will expand. If it does, good, if it doesn't, no problem. Choose your velocity and SD accordingly and don't worry about it.

[VariableRecall]

To those asking why everybody isn't shooting full wadcutters, it's because semi autos can't feed them and their poor aerodynamic efficiency at range.

Neither are good reasons not to carry them in a modern defense revolver. Semis require precisely manufactured bullets to be effective because they won't feed when loaded with large meplat rounds, and most defensive shootings are at close enough range that the aerodynamics of a full wadcutter don't matter.
The 70% rule is a compromise that tends to result in effective bullets that don't suffer from drag and instability quite the same.
I would take a RF bullet for any carry situation regardless of whether the bullet will expand. If it does, good, if it doesn't, no problem. Choose your velocity and SD accordingly and don't worry about it.

From my perspective in loading for .38 Special, my 148gn boolit mold is super easy to cast for, and makes for an easy to reload and accurate option for my revolver.
The side benefit of the mold's design is the enormous melpat, which makes for a very clean hole on paper, and potentially, a very efficient transfer of energy in a defensive situation.
A full-wadcutter load for a 1911 would be an exercise in futility, but put the same in a .45 ACP revolver, and you're fine and dandy.

It's all about making the greatest efficiency out of whatever firearms that we use and carry. Still, I think making large melpat designs for semi-autos would make for some fun research.

[pettypace]

It's all about making the greatest efficiency out of whatever firearms that we use and carry. Still, I think making large melpat designs for semi-autos would make for some fun research.


Take a look at the work being done by shooting on a shoestring in a recent thread here (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?442870-30-Super-Carry-with-Hand-Loaded-Cast-Boolits).

[Jtarm]

As to why wadcutters are not used for much other than cutting holes in paper is simple. That would be because their disadvantages outweighs their advantages for most applications.

Disagree. Most people don’t have a clue about the advantages of the wadcutter, or disadvantages of expanding bullets. They hear HPs touted as “THE BEST” and that’s what they go with.

I’m sure in large part because autos rule the market, where wadcutters aren’t relevant.

Wadcutters give boringly-predictable straight-line penetration and wound cavity (or whatever it’s called these days). Doubly true from snubnose revolvers where expansion can be iffy.

I concluded wadcutters were for me after witnessing a live gel test. The vaunted Speer 135-grain .38 special plugged on the denim and failed to expand. It did yaw and penetrated satisfactorily. I’m no terminal ballistics expert, but I wouldn’t trust a yawing bullet to penetrate predictably.

Just so you know I’m not cherry-picking, the Buffalo Bore +Ps using the LSWCHP and Barnes bullet expanded & penetrated beautifully from a 2” 642.

This is anecdotal, but the training class where I saw the gel test was led by four ex-LEOs who had also been firearms instructors. One described shooting a suspect with a 9mm HP round (don’t recall if he stated which one). The bullet entered his upper left arm, went through without striking bone, entered the left side of his chest and exited from the lower right abdomen without expanding. The treatment was four bandages, one over each hole.

This wasn’t a jab at the 9mm or HP ammo, but handguns in general.

Lesson: carry a handgun, but keep a shotgun or carbine close.

Of course the huge advantage of WCs is I can cast & load mass quantities and practice with pretty much the same ammo I carry, vs $1+ a pop for whizbang +P HPs, which often don’t shoot to POA in fixed-sight revolvers.

[M-Tecs]

Wow people are sure getting their undies in a bunch over this. That is the nice thing about living in the US. We have lots of choices and we are free to do what we want.

WC's are generally not repeater friendly. My S&W 52 loves them which is good since that is the only load that can be used in S&W 52's. Most of my other semi-auto's tend to have reliability issues with full WC's. Same for my lever guns without mods.

The Brits did it right with their manstopper bullet design but that was 120 years ago and large revolvers are rarely used for SD carry today. Using WC's with speed loaders tends to have hang-up issues unless the chambers are chamfered.

My sister has arthritis issues in her hands and wrists. I provide her with 38 Special WC's for SD. They are the best choice for her. For my Ruger LCP or my Sig 365 XL they are unworkable. Revolvers are a minority in todays SD market. Even more rare are revolvers loaded with WC's for SD.

If I was carrying an 1873 Colt Peacemaker for SD a copy of the Brits manstopper bullet would be an outstand choice.

If I really had to stop something with a handgun this should get the job done https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=573

Again it's nice to have choices.

[Daekar]

Disagree. Most people don’t have a clue about the advantages of the wadcutter, or disadvantages of expanding bullets. They hear HPs touted as “THE BEST” and that’s what they go with.

I’m sure in large part because autos rule the market, where wadcutters aren’t relevant.

This is exactly what I believe happens. There's no money in wadcutters, so we don't see them pushed. Very much like how important Vitamin D supplements beyond the minimal daily recommendation is, or many of the other medical advances... when the patent has expired, nobody cares, so no information is generated about it. Most people don't have a clue what's actually good, they just believe what they have been told, and the advice is invariably not about what works and what doesn't, but is along the lines of, "I would rather trust millions of dollars of development from the experts. Isn't your life worth a little extra on the ammo bill?"... which neatly sidesteps the question of whether or not large meplat bullets are good enough to do the job.

[44MAG#1]

My wife and I are going on a little road trip
I am carrying a 1911 full size with 3 HP's first out of the gun with the rest Win. FL 230 grain FMJFN and a second Mag with the Win. FL 230 grain FMJFN.
I feel well about my decision.

[cainttype]

If the conversation returned to the original post discussing meplat, there are certain constants that just don’t go away. So, with the idea of comparing similar weight, caliber, and low velocity (typical SD pistol speeds) projectiles that travel through obstacles without tumbling, and don’t expand, certain traits will become common.
Streamlined bullets retain velocity through their flight better than similar weight/caliber blunt bullets because of resistance. It could be said that “crushing” more air slows the blunt bullet, limiting it’s range….. The same effect can be applied to other mediums, including flesh, bone, water…. You name it.
The “advantage” of larger meplat diameter in any medium is a larger “crush” cavity, permanent wound channel, although penetration is decreased…. Blowing a hole clean through something obviously negates that “disadvantage”…
The “advantage” in smaller meplats is better penetration, although the permanent wound channel diameter is decreased.

Although small meplat diameter differences can be regarded as “practically identical”, logic dictates that if a small meplat wound tract is measurably smaller than a LARGE meplat wound tract then meplats that are closer in diameter would also share that characteristic although measuring the difference in soft tissue might be difficult, at best.

The earlier question of what advantage/disadvantage bullets of different caliber sharing the same meplat diameter might have could immediately go to weight and momentum breaking bone, penetrating, etc…. But if we ignore that altogether, for the sake of the thread’s apparent purpose, we can still see where bullet diameter alone “might” prove useful.
Imagine a nerve, or bone that could disrupt a nerve (spinal column vertebrae, for instance) being “almost scraped” with no ill effect by a lesser diameter projectile…. A significantly larger diameter, with the exact same placement, would tear that nerve, or possibly clip that bone well-enough to disrupt the entire nervous system.

Everything is a compromise.
Everybody has to chose exactly where they are willing to compromise.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1538272765022769154

I hope this will work...I'm far from a computer expert. It was sent to me, I don't do Twitter, Facebook, etc.

Was this Officer's meplat big enough?

DG

[pettypace]

Was this Officer's meplat big enough?


I'd guess some JHPs working as intended. And some good training.

[44MAG#1]

Boy, that video was an eye opener.

[M-Tecs]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1538272765022769154

I hope this will work...I'm far from a computer expert. It was sent to me, I don't do Twitter, Facebook, etc.

Was this Officer's meplat big enough?

DG

As stated by others the HP's worked as intended and the officer actions were outstanding. With properly expanding bullets the size of the meplat is a non-issue.

I am really having a hard time understanding how spun up some are getting over this issue. It's not a difficult or complicated subject. Proper shot placement with bullets that have adequate penetration with maxim energy transfer is best.

[44MAG#1]

As stated by others the HP's worked as intended and the officer actions were outstanding. With properly expanding bullets the size of the meplat is a non-issue.

I am really having a hard time understanding how spun up some are getting over this issue. It's not a difficult or complicated subject. Proper shot placement with bullets that have adequate penetration with maxim energy transfer is best.

The thing to do is if you don't understand it is to turn loose of it.
Take a deep breath and turn it loose.
It isn't worth it after all the bloomers that have been wadded up over the 9MM versus the 40 S&W versus the 45 Auto discussions. AND the discussions of the 41 Magnum verses the 44 Magnum verses the 45 Colt. This pales in comparison.

[markshere2]

Meplat certainly plays a big role in taking game animals, especially large ones but it can also be over done if you choose to do so. I have a friend who took an Elephant one year with his FA 454 using a well known hard cast bullet, shooting the Elephant in the head. Two years later he was back in Africa with the same intentions & the same loads....almost. The bullet had been changed slightly, the meplat had been increased just a bit but he said it was noticeable. Taking almost the same shot as 2 years before the bullet failed to penetrate the skull & the chase was on, for 3 days, perhaps 4, I can't remember. Anyway, the Elephant was found several times but no shot was ever presented but you could actually see the bullet protruding from the skull. Same 454 Casull, same load, same bullet but just a bit wider meplat.
Phil Shoemaker is one of the most respected guides in all of Alaska, a reputation well deserved. Two things happened when he shot that huge bear that saved his bacon, one is that the bear was focused on his clients, the other is that he was shooting the bear from the side of the head, not front on. He was able to get good penetration with those good Buffalo Bore loads shooting from the side, something that most likely wouldn't have happened had the bear been facing him.

Dick

Different Elephant, also. Same bone density? Prolly not.

Bullet impact the exact same spot? Betcha not.

Not being argumentative, just pointing out it's not lab situation.

[sixshot]

Different Elephant, agreed. No hunting shot can be exactly duplicated, I'm just repeating what a veteran hunter with maybe 12 safari's under his belt relayed to me. All these hunts were with the FA 454 but what happens is we take credit when everything goes right & place the blame somewhere else when something goes wrong.
My friend "thought" the only difference he could notice was a different meplat on the new bullets but of course you are right, nothing is ever the same, even when it's just deer.
Stacking 3 HP's over 3 big solids is a good practice, something I did last year in Africa in my bisley 45, sort of. I used a 282 gr cast HP in my first chamber on Kudu, Nyala & Zebra with the second chamber stoked with a 306 gr LBT style solid, but loaded with different powders. These 2 loads would shoot into 4" at 100 yds. Worked out very well.

Dick

[Der Gebirgsjager]

As stated by others the HP's worked as intended and the officer actions were outstanding. With properly expanding bullets the size of the meplat is a non-issue.

I am really having a hard time understanding how spun up some are getting over this issue. It's not a difficult or complicated subject. Proper shot placement with bullets that have adequate penetration with maxim energy transfer is best.

An astute observation, M-Tecs. This is one of those reoccurring subjects concerning which some folks do have strong opinions. It doesn't seem to be something to be discussed one time and forgotten, as members come and members go, and the new members remain interested to learn and discuss, whereas older members desire to share what they know (or think they know!). Regardless of opinions, facts, and statistics all is good as long as courteous discussion is maintained.

DG

[Jtarm]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1538272765022769154

I hope this will work...I'm far from a computer expert. It was sent to me, I don't do Twitter, Facebook, etc.

Was this Officer's meplat big enough?

DG

Damn!

[murf205]

Don't bring a hatchet to a gunfight!!

[44MAG#1]

That looks to me like suicide by cop.
I know a person that has a family member that purposely died that way.

[ErnieBishop]

As stated by others the HP's worked as intended and the officer actions were outstanding. With properly expanding bullets the size of the meplat is a non-issue.

I am really having a hard time understanding how spun up some are getting over this issue. It's not a difficult or complicated subject. Proper shot placement with bullets that have adequate penetration with maxim energy transfer is best.

304372

Obviously, we need to have it with us or on us, before we can really consider anything.
The ability to shoot accurately on demand, while under pressure, with a good SD bullet always yields good results...I wonder how many can actually do that?
I just read this whole thread...Wow!
Hi Guys! Hope your weekend is going well![smilie=s:

[GLynn41]

What I think I have learned.... I have killed deer with 170 gr .41 jhc (1660fps.) as example-- hole ( was larger than diameter some) in front of the left ( facing me) shoulder through the lung then in the skin on the right... good blood ran bout 50 yards and was shot at about the same distance.
at about 40 yards ... same .41 (5.5" Redhawk) now a 255 WLNGC) straight through both lungs it was broad side. the lungs were very badly torn up-- she went spread legged and took on step to her right and fell. Hole in the hide was .700 verses the sierras .26 or so . Both did well but the home cast made much bigger holes.. My WLNGC was .33..& made about the same holes in a boar.. all I ever use in my .41 's or .500 GNR is LWN but some times I shoot a 250 gr cup point but have not used on anything alive .. from paper to deer, ground hogs to one boar, the bigger meplat do seem to work for me. As to the wad cutters they are too much of a good thing. Going boar hunting first weekend in october and will use my cast WLN 380 @ .501 cal. and or 250 gr cup point for my 4 5/8 .41 Blackhawk - time will tell