Question about black powder can it be used in more modern cartridges?

[tayous1]

I was reading an article about making your black powder as I was interested in finding out how to do this and in the article, the author talked about using black powder to reload 223, 308 along with other rifle calibers that I have only seen smokeless used for.

I'd like to know if has anyone used black powder for a caliber that was made to use smokeless powder. Is it even advisable to do this? It just got me thinking so I have come here to ask. Thanks!

[Castaway]

If the cartridge is straight walled and fired in a revolver, bolt or lever gun, go for it. A recoil operated slide would work, but you may have a problem in generating enough recoil to reliably cycle the action, especially after a few shots have fouled everything. Some of the gently shouldered cartridges could do it. With a gas operated rifle the fouling in the gas tube will be a problem.

[JSnover]

What Castaway said.
There is video of a Thomson firing full auto, loaded with black powder, made possible by the straight pistol case.

[R-71]

You could probably use it in a single shot or bolt action, i doubt it would make a semi auto function not mention cleaning the system afterwards. Back when the 303 British was introduced it started as a BP round with a FMJ bullet.

Now I’m kind of curios what kind of velocity could be obtained with a 308 case filled with BP.

[tayous1]

Thanks for the information! I have heard that you could load straight wall pistol rounds and obviously straight wall rifle rounds. Just never heard it being done with bottleneck rounds in rifles before. Also, yes I agree. It would be interesting to see what type of velocities you could get with the black powder in 308. Good evening, interesting to see what it would do in a 223. Maybe you would make a good subsonic load for a suppressor? Or maybe not cuz I'd hate to clean that out of this suppressor..

[BLAHUT]

Your 30-30, was a black powder cartrage, there are many if you go back in history<

[M-Tecs]

Your 30-30, was a black powder cartrage, there are many if you go back in history<

https://winchester.com/Blog/2016/05/30-30-misconceptions-through-the-years

The first M94s to roll out of the factory in 1894 were chambered for two black-powder rounds, the 32-40 and 38-55. It wasn’t until the next year that a Model 94 with a stronger, nickel-steel barrel was offered in the brand new .30 Winchester Center Fire. But that wasn’t all. A simultaneous release was the same rifle chambered for the .25-35 Winchester, which also burned smokeless.

The 30-30 designation came later because non-Winchester ammo brands didn’t care to advertise .30 Winchester Center Fire on their products. The new round burned 30 grains of smokeless powder, so they went with the traditional black-powder nomenclature that listed caliber followed by the powder quantity, even though the 30-grains of smokeless powder spit out a lot more energy than 30 grains of black-powder. That probably confused a lot of shooters in the early years, but they eventually figured out this new round was a barn burner.

[tayous1]

Your 30-30, was a black powder cartrage, there are many if you go back in history<

How many 308 have you seen use BP?

[M-Tecs]

I was reading an article about making your black powder as I was interested in finding out how to do this and in the article, the author talked about using black powder to reload 223, 308 along with other rifle calibers that I have only seen smokeless used for.

I'd like to know if has anyone used black powder for a caliber that was made to use smokeless powder. Is it even advisable to do this? It just got me thinking so I have come here to ask. Thanks!

Blackpowder can and probably has been loaded in almost every cartridge that has be around any length of time.

Can it be done safety yes. Fouling increases greatly and velocity may suffer greatly if its used cartridges like the 223 and 308. Same for function in SOME autoloaders.

The 303 Brit was first loaded with blackpowder.

https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/the-303-british-and-black-powder

https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/britains-black-powder-303-the-lee-metford


The 30/40 was not loaded with blackpowder despite claims to the contrary.

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/30-40-krag/

Like the .30-30 Winchester, the .30-40 Krag used the black powder naming convention in common use at the time that consisted of the caliber of the cartridge followed by the standard load of powder in grains. Since the new Army cartridge used a .30 caliber bullet (.308″ diameter) propelled by 40 grains of smokeless powder, the cartridge received the designation “.30-40.”

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?221458-Black-powder-308

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?391583-Does-Anyone-Shoot-Black-in-30-06#:~:text=Don%E2%80%99t%20be%20fooled%20with%20th e%20notion%20that%20black,two%20factors%20made%20t hat%20a%20short%20lived%20experiment.

[tayous1]

Blackpowder can and probably has been loaded in almost every cartridge that has be around any length of time.

Can it be done safety yes. Fouling increases greatly and velocity may suffer greatly if its used cartridges like the 223 and 308.

The 303 Brit was first loaded with blackpowder.

https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/the-303-british-and-black-powder

https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/britains-black-powder-303-the-lee-metford

The 30/40 was not loaded with blackpowder despite claims to the contrary.

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/30-40-krag/

Now just need to find how to make my own primers and I'd be set! Thanks!!

[Castaway]

What M-Tecs was talking around and didn’t quite say definitively, the 30-30 was originally a smokeless cartridge, not black powder

[M-Tecs]

What M-Tecs was talking around and didn’t quite say definitively, the 30-30 was originally a smokeless cartridge, not black powder

I added more underlining and bold font for the folks that thought the history from Winchester was talking around the issue.


https://winchester.com/Blog/2016/05/30-30-misconceptions-through-the-years

The first M94s to roll out of the factory in 1894 were chambered for two black-powder rounds, the 32-40 and 38-55. It wasn’t until the next year that a Model 94 with a stronger, nickel-steel barrel was offered in the brand new .30 Winchester Center Fire. But that wasn’t all. A simultaneous release was the same rifle chambered for the .25-35 Winchester, which also burned smokeless.

The 30-30 designation came later because non-Winchester ammo brands didn’t care to advertise .30 Winchester Center Fire on their products. The new round burned 30 grains of smokeless powder, so they went with the traditional black-powder nomenclature that listed caliber followed by the powder quantity, even though the 30-grains of smokeless powder spit out a lot more energy than 30 grains of black-powder. That probably confused a lot of shooters in the early years, but they eventually figured out this new round was a barn burner.

[Randy Bohannon]

Then throw the 32 Win. Special in the mix which was created to use up the 32 cal. barrels that Winchester had lots of. It has been suggested the 32 Special was a transition smokeless cartridge factory ammo but could be loaded with b/p using 32-40 dies. Early 32 Specials have reversible elevators on the rear barrel sight for b/p and smokeless.

[Winger Ed.]

Is it even advisable to do this?

You wouldn't shoot your eye out, but there's no reason to.
Especially in shorter barrels-
BP pressures won't generate the speeds that smokeless does, and you have the fouling issues.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

We have a local rifle match conducted every month by the Queen Victoria Rifle Club. The rules are simple competitors rifles must be stamped "VR" as made during the reign of the good lady.

Of particular interest is the 303 Black powder match which is shot with Martini Enfields and early Lee Enfields. The match comprises 7 rounds at each of 50, 100, 200yards: Best 5 rounds counted for score.

Other events for even older guns like the bottle-necked 577/450 this target at 200yds

https://i.imgur.com/r6q7fa4l.jpg

[barnetmill]

Then throw the 32 Win. Special in the mix which was created to use up the 32 cal. barrels that Winchester had lots of. It has been suggested the 32 Special was a transition smokeless cartridge factory ammo but could be loaded with b/p using 32-40 dies. Early 32 Specials have reversible elevators on the rear barrel sight for b/p and smokeless.
It was claimed that earlier 32 win specials has a slower twist to facilitate cleaning the fouling of black power, but it could as someone said that the winchester had a lot of pre-existing barrels so rifled.

[indian joe]

Thanks for the information! I have heard that you could load straight wall pistol rounds and obviously straight wall rifle rounds. Just never heard it being done with bottleneck rounds in rifles before. Also, yes I agree. It would be interesting to see what type of velocities you could get with the black powder in 308. Good evening, interesting to see what it would do in a 223. Maybe you would make a good subsonic load for a suppressor? Or maybe not cuz I'd hate to clean that out of this suppressor..

if your supressor comes apart (like the ones they advertise as oil/fuel filters) cleanup would be simple, just unscrew it, dunk it in water, swish it around and dry it. Blackpowder cleanup is a cinch if you do it soon after use, and employ plenty of H2O.

[FrankJD]

... Blackpowder cleanup is a cinch if you do it soon after use, and employ plenty of H2O.

So very true ... it's amazing how many folks just case up a black powder gun that's been shot a bunch, with no thought about keeping the BP residue soft ... just takes a minute or two and will save much time when doing a full cleaning.

[BLAHUT]

Your 30-30, was a black powder cartrage, there are many if you go back in history<

I stand corected> thank you.

[john.k]

Ive fired a Garand with black powder 30-06 loads and 303 military bullet.......you get 3 to 4 shots before the gas cylinder fouls and stops the bolt from closing.......Ive also loaded a 300 Mag with blackpowder.....why ?....why not?........incidentally ,est around 1500ft sec from a 30-06

[Savvy Jack]

Question about black powder can it be used in more modern cartridges?

Yes

Will it perform like smokeless powder.....No!

Why? Black powder is a slow burning powder....kind of like a pump gas NASCAR. The same NASCAR with a racing engine, high octane......well, that is a different story...consider that the smokeless powder loads for the same rifle loads you are referring to.

Consider fast burning pistol powders a Corvette on a quarter mile drag strip using a race engine, high octane gas AND NITRO!.

[john.k]

Black powder has around 1/2 the energy of nitro powder (47%).........Military 303 had a compressed pellet of powder weighing 71 grains..........there is no way you can get near that much granular blackpowder into a 303 case,no matter what you do.................a good example is the old 6" Coastal defense gun.........it used either 12 lbs of cordite or 28 lbs of blackpowder to fire the same shell at 2,000 ft /sec.

[Savvy Jack]

Simply answering the man's question

308WIN with black powder.
about 50gr Goex FFFg, compressed
147gr FMJ bullet (M80 ball)
Standard large rifle primer
Average velocity at 25 yards - about 1600fps

Try here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313677-Blackpowder-amp-243-308-223-30-30-case-capacity-velocity-is-it-working&p=3744927&viewfull=1#post3744927

[Gobeyond]

Simply answering the man's question

308WIN with black powder.
about 50gr Goex FFFg, compressed
147gr FMJ bullet (M80 ball)
Standard large rifle primer
Average velocity at 25 yards - about 1600fps

Try here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313677-Blackpowder-amp-243-308-223-30-30-case-capacity-velocity-is-it-working&p=3744927&viewfull=1#post3744927

I guess it even works in bottle neck cartridges, news flash. 8mm Kropatschek. But what a mess it could make of a nice gun.
Old military beaters are one thing….. would it work in a CVA, new, 45-70? Or plug up the firing pin and extractor……….

[GregLaROCHE]

If you are going to shoot BP in a cartridge, consider shooting a couple of smokeless rounds at the end. It makes cleaning a lot easier.

[Castaway]

I wouldn’t fire nitro after black powder. Black powder cleans easily with water, hot water is best, tap water works, even ice water, but all of the salts and fouling are dissolved easily. You can’t do that with nitro powder. I fear the nitro powder afterwards would only complicate things and make cleaning harder

[KCSO]

The worst cussin I ever got was when I made a mistake and gave a friend B/P 12 Ga loads for his 1100 Remington. Two shots and it froze up and was a real mess to clean. The B/P loads in the 303 were solid black compressed into a straight case and THEN necked down. IIRR velocity was lower than smokeless and the rifling was different to accommodate the B/P load.

[Geezer in NH]

Yes, all will shoot with black powder, not as efficient as smokeless but usable when no smokeless is available.

You will have to clean as any black powder does. Do not expect smokeless ballistics. Howevere time comes it will serve to kill opponents.

[Savvy Jack]

I guess it even works in bottle neck cartridges, news flash. 8mm Kropatschek. But what a mess it could make of a nice gun.
Old military beaters are one thing….. would it work in a CVA, new, 45-70? Or plug up the firing pin and extractor……….

Just answer the mans question, let him decide what he wants to clean

[indian joe]

I guess it even works in bottle neck cartridges, news flash. 8mm Kropatschek. But what a mess it could make of a nice gun.
Old military beaters are one thing….. would it work in a CVA, new, 45-70? Or plug up the firing pin and extractor……….

newsflash I been shooting blackpowder in some nice guns for over thirty years - no mess - no fuss - all you need to do is clean and oil it after you shoot - taint that hard !!!!!!