Building my .44WCF/.44-40 die setup

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

This is going to be a long-winded rant, hope someone enjoys it. I plan to add to this thread as I get things changed and upgraded. I WELCOME any and all suggestions and input, but will least appreciate suggestions to buy more expensive presses or go off-press where I'm not yet willing to. [smilie=l: This thread is LEE Precision heavy, my apologies to the folks that I know will be seriously bothered by that. I plan to go blue when I get a bit more flush. For now, I'm happy to fiddle and tinker. :lol:

This will sound weird, but the venerable .44WCF cartridge is literally the only round I reload right now- outside of my hand-loaded all brass 20ga BP loads. That will change someday. I shoot the .44 in a Cimarron-Uberti 1873 Winchester clone with 24" barrel, and my every day carry Cimarron-Uberti Colt clone with 7-1/2" barrel. Side note- I've worn the latter pretty much out internally and let the barrel get a little freckling, so I am planning to send it off for rebuild by Jim Finch of Long Hunter's in Amarillo soon. I believe I am going to have the barrel shortened or replaced to 4-3/4"- just going to be handier as a carry gun. I also only load black powder. I'm planning to get more guns in the same caliber for my hunting and homesteading family of nine, so I foresee burning a lot more ammo. What I need is a reasonably fast production setup on a tight budget, and I want the most accurate ammo I can reasonably make- with some compromises between those two things. One is that I'm not using a drop tube because I use a Lee auto-disk powder measure, which moves with the turret on my current setup consisting of a Lee Classic four-hole turret press with Lee sizing, seating, and powder-thru expander dies, finishing up with a Redding Profile Crimp die to finish up. The Lee turret press has served me very well, and saves so much time and space over a single-stage. Only thing I had to mod was to add a homemade spring arm to make the primer arm tip reliably.

Now to the dies. In my experience, .44-40 just isn't as hard to reload in itself as many make it out to be, and boy do I get sick of folks repeating the myth that it is. I still have yet to crush a case. What I HAVE found is that it IS hard to set up for, mostly because of discrepancies in manufacturer specs. Most modern .44WCF guns use larger bores than original 1873 rifles did, but chamber and die specs haven't evolved and standardized as they should. Modern .44-40 revolvers tend to have tight chambers that are very unforgiving of the slightest bulge in the thin case mouth, and in some cases I've heard they won't allow the user to chamber a bullet that is appropriately sized to the bore. I bought Lee dies out of the gate because I wanted to use the powder-through die with the auto powder measure, but I would have been much better served I from what I have heard to buy that die separately and get a set of RCBS Cowboy dies, as supposedly they don't overwork the brass as much by resizing the throats WAY below the necessary size as the Lee does. I need to confirm from someone though that the RCBS Cowboy sizing die is actually better in this regard before pulling the trigger on a set of dies just for the one.

Current components: Mixed brass, mostly Starline though. Whatever GOEX powder I have come across, fixing to switch entirely to Swiss 1.5f or 3f. CCI LP primers. Accurate/John Kort 43-215C boolits, cast in wheelweights. Homemade lube, as oily as I can make it. Beeswax and olive oil.

Current dies, in their positions in the 4-hole turret:

1. Lee die. Size, decap, prime on downstroke. Sizing is necessary because of differences in the chambers of my two guns. I modified the die by grinding the base to drop the shoulder of the case a bit, which helped with chambering in the revolver. The Lee sizing die leaves the necks much smaller than is necessary, which is annoying, but only because it overworks the brass- not really a problem otherwise.

2: Lee Powder-through expander with pro auto-disk measure, expands, flares and charges. This is working ok, but the expander plug is undersized for my boolits, and the curved flare makes seating boolits straight difficult. Many folks swap out the plug for a .44 mag one to help with the diameter issue, but I bought several and they were all within .001" of the original plug. An option would be to make a new properly-sized (and shaped!) expander plug in the style of the Lyman M/NOE plugs. Wish NOE would offer plugs for the Lee powder-through dies again. I'm going to be expanding using an NOE plug in a Lee universal expander die when I switch to the Loadmaster press- more on that later.

3. Lee die. Boolit seated, powder compressed with boolit, crimp started to keep boolit in place. Compressing powder with boolit is less than ideal I know, and I hope to change that in the future, but I'm not currently willing to go off-press to use a compression die. I had to customize the seater plug to support the nose of the boolit and eliminate deformation. I crimp just enough to keep the boolit from backing out, which it will otherwise do.

4. Redding Profile Crimp Die, finish crimp. This die is worth every penny, and most of my tight chambering issues are gone after switching to it. I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die for years, and I know many folks love them, but I will never go back to the Lee FCD for this cartridge.

I am currently rebuilding a Lee Loadmaster (including all of the mods and extras from mikesreloadingbench.com) and as I set it up I'm looking forward to the fifth station. I really wish I could add a powder compression die, but so far I haven't figured out a way to add it and still keep my separate crimping die. There's enough stations- problem is, some of them are pretty well fixed in what you can do. The Loadmaster primes on the upstroke on Station 2, which has it's own limitations, including elimination of the charging option on that station. I'm not at all bothered by the "risks" of using black powder in the Lee measure, but there is no way in hell I'm priming while charging, even if the Loadmaster didn't have it's dubious reputation when it comes to primers and priming. Current plan is to add a separate Lee universal expander die with NOE plug in station 2- I have these items on the way. I will be using a bullet feeder on the Loadmaster, but will start out without a case feeder as the stock feed tubes are too tight for the rims of .44-40 brass- which are significantly larger than those of .45 Colt believe it or not. Eventually, I'll make new feed tubes of copper after the example of Roy Bertalotto of rvbprecision.com.

Anyways, here's a summary of the Loadmaster's die setup limitations in it's factory configuration: 1. If decapping is done on the press, it must be done on Station 1. If priming is done on the press, it must be done on Station 2, and is on the upstroke. It's best to have a die in this station as well, to get perfect alignment for priming. The powder measure must be located at Station 3, which leaves the very limited options of two completely free stations at 4 and 5. I really love my Redding PCD- but I have heard good things about RCBS Cowboy dies and the seating/crimp die. Might be worth a try to see if I can do those two tasks in one die, thereby making room for a powder compression die at Station 4. Maybe another reason to get those Cowboy dies. That new Six-Pack Pro 6000 is looking mighty nice right now.

So here's the summary of the die setup I'm going for first on the Loadmaster:

1. Size/decap. I may go to decapping off press prior to wet tumbling. I see an APP in the future. And another case feeder mod headache.

2. Prime, expand with NOE plug.

3. Charge with Pro Auto-Disk measure.

4. Boolit seated, compressing charge.

5. Finish Crimp.

Nuff for now. I know some of this was a bit redundant, but if anyone found it enjoyable or maybe even helpful, let me know. I'll have an update within the next couple weeks after the Loadmaster parts, expander die, and NOE plug come in and I get some stuff put together. Maybe I'll also figure out how to post pics on here...

[HWooldridge]

I’m pushing 64 years old and started reloading with the 44-40 when I was 18 so you are in good company. I think the “crushed shell” reputation comes from people getting in a hurry and not centering the empty case - because you will damage one if it gets struck. I’ve personally had more trouble with the 32-20 than the 44-40.

Good write up and best of luck - the 44 WCF is a fun cartridge to work with and shoot…

[hockeynick39]

Sounds like a good plan to me. I have 2 Loadmasters setup for 45 ACP and 9mm, because I shoot and carry those the most. For all other cartridges I load, I use a single stage press. If you are looking for recommendations, why can't you just find a single stage press for cheap and use that as the crimping station. When I am seating bullets on the RCBS Rock Chucker, I have a RCBS Spartan setup for crimping and they are right next to each other on the bench. Good luck and stay safe! ;);)

[hporter]

After playing with different die brands, expanders, crimp dies - I have settled on this setup loading 44 WCF on my Dillon 650.

I use:
Station one - RCBS Cowboy sizing die
Station two - Lee Auto-disk powder measure with the factory expander installed
Station three - Lee universal expander die with the NOE neck expander plug
Station four - RCBS Cowboy seating die
Station five - Redding Profile Crimp Die

This setup has produced the best results for me. And the ammo feeds in all the 44-40 chambered firearms that I own.

I also use the John Kort 215-C bullet. I have the RCBS 200gr FN and the Accurate Molds 200Q molds as well. But I like the Kort bullet the best for shooting black powder loads. And I also use a homemade SPG equivalent lube.

The Lee APP is great if you like popping your primers before you clean your cases. It also works well for sizing liquid lubed and coated bullets.

I bought a case feed adapter for my Dillon 650 case feeder to keep the Lee APP fed. And now I can deprime all my fired brass from an outing as fast as I can pull the handle.

I also bought the Lee Depriming kit for the APP so that I don’t have to fool with the case holders. That was a very worthwhile purchase too.

Good luck with getting your newly rebuilt Loadmaster set up. I just wanted to chime in to say there is another fellow out there doing essentially what you are about to do, and is happy with the results.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

I’m pushing 64 years old and started reloading with the 44-40 when I was 18 so you are in good company. I think the “crushed shell” reputation comes from people getting in a hurry and not centering the empty case - because you will damage one if it gets struck. I’ve personally had more trouble with the 32-20 than the 44-40.

Good write up and best of luck - the 44 WCF is a fun cartridge to work with and shoot…

Thank you sir! I look forward to tackling the .32-20 one day as well!

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Sounds like a good plan to me. I have 2 Loadmasters setup for 45 ACP and 9mm, because I shoot and carry those the most. For all other cartridges I load, I use a single stage press. If you are looking for recommendations, why can't you just find a single stage press for cheap and use that as the crimping station. When I am seating bullets on the RCBS Rock Chucker, I have a RCBS Spartan setup for crimping and they are right next to each other on the bench. Good luck and stay safe! ;);)

Thanks! My goal is to avoid moving off-press if at all possible- but crimping off press ain't a bad idea at all. Don't need a single stage- the turret press can be used just like one. They really are extremely versatile. If I get an APP, I'm guessing I could set it up for crimping too. We shall see.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

After playing with different die brands, expanders, crimp dies - I have settled on this setup loading 44 WCF on my Dillon 650.

I use:
Station one - RCBS Cowboy sizing die
Station two - Lee Auto-disk powder measure with the factory expander installed
Station three - Lee universal expander die with the NOE neck expander plug
Station four - RCBS Cowboy seating die
Station five - Redding Profile Crimp Die

This setup has produced the best results for me. And the ammo feeds in all the 44-40 chambered firearms that I own.

I also use the John Kort 215-C bullet. I have the RCBS 200gr FN and the Accurate Molds 200Q molds as well. But I like the Kort bullet the best for shooting black powder loads. And I also use a homemade SPG equivalent lube.

The Lee APP is great if you like popping your primers before you clean your cases. It also works well for sizing liquid lubed and coated bullets.

I bought a case feed adapter for my Dillon 650 case feeder to keep the Lee APP fed. And now I can deprime all my fired brass from an outing as fast as I can pull the handle.

I also bought the Lee Depriming kit for the APP so that I don’t have to fool with the case holders. That was a very worthwhile purchase too.

Good luck with getting your newly rebuilt Loadmaster set up. I just wanted to chime in to say there is another fellow out there doing essentially what you are about to do, and is happy with the results.

Wow! Great minds and all... nearly the same setup I have in mind! And those are exactly the tasks I have in mind for the APP. Definitely going on the list. Good to hear you like the Cowboy sizing and seating dies- guess I need to pull the trigger on those soon.

I'm a little confused as to why you have stations two and three flipped from what I'm planning on the Loadmaster- don't see how that would work with the near-full case of powder I'm dropping. Unless I could get a expander plug like the NOE but with a flat end for compressing the powder at the same time....!!!:Bright idea:

[John in PA]

Here's a boolit you might want to try as you move ahead with your experimentation. I designed this boolit for N-SSA competition, which requires black powder propellant, and NO gas checks. The nose contour matched the original factory 205 gr boolit for the .44 WCF (so that it will run through magazines well), but longer bearing surface and weight for better, more consistent accuracy. And a DEEP square lube groove to keep BP fouling soft for sustained accuracy and minimal fouling. Also a fouling-collector groove just ahead of first band, and a long rear band to discourage blow-by. It's working very well in Uberti barrels. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-245C

[Savvy Jack]

I no longer load in a progressive press since I no longer need to load vast quantities of cartridges.

I use a Lee single stage press, so basically is a moot point for what you are looking for.

For .428" lead bullets, my 43-214A design
1. RCBS Cowboy resizing die. Designed for larger diameter lead bullets
2. Lyman "M" die, using a 44 Mag plug
3. RCBS Seating Die, NO ROLL CRIMP
4. Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp Die
304195

Details Here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets

For .4255" JSP Winchester bullets
1. Lee resizing die
2. Lyman "M" Die, using 44-40 plug
3. RCBS Seating Die, NO ROLL CRIMP
4. Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp Die

Details Here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets


For the RCBS Green Machine I have but no longer used,
Details Here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets

1. Resize on a single stage press, then....
2. M Die
3. Lee Powder Through using a light spring as to not deform the M die expansion
4. RCBS Seater, NO ROLL
5. Redding Profile Crimp
304193

304194
Left, 43-214A No Crimp Groove
Right, Winchester JSP
Two different crimps, one crimp die.

Redding Profile Crimp Die details here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets/redding-profile-crimp-die

Crimping/Crumpled/Buckled Case Issues?, Details here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/crimpingcrumpledbuckled-case-issues

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Here's a boolit you might want to try as you move ahead with your experimentation. I designed this boolit for N-SSA competition, which requires black powder propellant, and NO gas checks. The nose contour matched the original factory 205 gr boolit for the .44 WCF (so that it will run through magazines well), but longer bearing surface and weight for better, more consistent accuracy. And a DEEP square lube groove to keep BP fouling soft for sustained accuracy and minimal fouling. Also a fouling-collector groove just ahead of first band, and a long rear band to discourage blow-by. It's working very well in Uberti barrels. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-245C

That is a very interesting boolit! Looks pretty much exactly like the Accurate/John Kort 43-215C I’m shooting now, with a longer base. I wanted closer to the weight of the original boolits, but yours looks very intriguing. Couldn’t talk you into selling me 50 to try could I?

[Silhouette]

I agree that the 44-40 is not as hard to load as it's made out to be. I have crushed some cases but that was my fault for not paying attention. Like HWooldridge said.
The 44-40 is the first pistol cartridge I've ever owned, I love it and see no reason to change. I only use it in a Miroku 73.

[smkummer]

I know I may be stepping on toes in the blackpowder cartridge section but if your concern is a budget, family of 9 and so on…….plus what your shooting is smokeless rated right? Anyway my cowboy loads are about 5 grains 700X powder behind Lee’s 420-200 RF in my New Henry 1860 and an original 1875 Remington revolver. (Less than 8000 psi.) In my area, blackpowder is hard to find for under $30 a pound and that’s what 700X sells for unless one is lucky to get 4lbs. for $100. So 5-7 grains of 700X or at least 30-35 grains FFg. Both powders appear to sell for the same price so your powder cost is 6 times more using black. Ok, observation over.

[Savvy Jack]

I agree that the 44-40 is not as hard to load as it's made out to be. I have crushed some cases but that was my fault for not paying attention. Like HWooldridge said.
The 44-40 is the first pistol cartridge I've ever owned, I love it and see no reason to change. I only use it in a Miroku 73.

Keep in mind that the 44-40 is a rifle cartridge, not a pistol cartridge. It is a rifle cartridge that can be loaded for use in a pistol.

Pistol Cartridge vs Rifle Cartridge
Which is it?

It really doesn't matter which a person decides to call it. I think what is important is to be familiar with the history when it comes to Winchester's own classifications and why. We may never know why it is called a "pistol caliber" today. This could be for completely different reasons...apparently taboo and not open for discussion!!

We all know the 44-40 (44 WCF) was first introduced as a "rifle cartridge" during 1873 but soon sought favor when Colt chambered the round during 1877 in their single action revolvers and in 1878 in their double action revolvers.

Winchester started "classifying" their cartridges in 1877 simply calling them Central Fire Cartridges. By 1879 Winchester separated the central fire cartridges into two separate classifications, according to G.R Watrous, January 1943.

During this time Watrous authored a 93 page book entitled Winchester Metallic Ammunition, Brass And Paper Shot Shells. Watrous wrote portions of this book with the help from the following ex-Winchester employees currently employed there at the time or from other's that had passed away over the years.

Paul Bollensanger, employed since 1897
V. E. Rosien, since 1903
M. A. Robinson, since 1904
C. L. Wright, since 1912

Deceased by 1943

A. W. Earl from 1883 to 1919
John Gardner from 1883 to 1908 (Gardner Primer Patents?)
H. O. Whitney from 1884 to 1939
H. C. Trecartin from 1886 to 1925
H. B. Dow from 1887 to 1909

During 1879 Winchester divides the cartridge classifications into two groups

A - Central Fire Cartridges, Short Length Cartridges such as the 38 S&W, 44 Colt, 44 Evens, 45 Webley.
B - Military & Sporting Central Fire Cartridges, Long Length cartridges such as the 40-50 Sharps, 43 Spanish, 45-75 and the 58 Snider

The only exception to this was the 44 WCF (44-40) and the 38 WCF (38-40).

Why? Due to the rapidly increasing popularity of their M/73 rifle, Winchester in order to further increase it's use included both of their calibers in the "Pistol Size" classification, as more liberal discounts were allowed the trade than was given in the "Military & Sporting" classification.

This had absolutely nothing to do with performance!

This classification extended for many years until 1939 when they were changed to;

A - Center Fire Cartridges
B - Center Fire Blank Cartridges
C - Center Fire Shot Cartridges

Removing the "Pistol Size" from the classification equation.

During this time Winchester still used the "K-code" (separate code from the classifications code) pistol cartridge code but changed the code for the 44-40 from a pistol code "T" (K4412T) to a rifle code "C" (K4412C) by 1948...once again classifying the 44-40 as a rifle cartridge.

Eventually during the 1950's, the 44-40 cartridge code changed to simply W 4440 (Winchester) and 4440 (Western).

To keep matters confusing, the 44 W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridges used the pistol "T" code but were not to be used in pistols but did have a separate cartridge code (K4414T).

Even through the 60's and 70's Winchester listed the 44-40 in both the revolver and rifle sections, technical data still shows it as always being a rifle cartridge.

[indian joe]

Keep in mind that the 44-40 is a rifle cartridge, not a pistol cartridge. It is a rifle cartridge that can be loaded for use in a pistol.

Pistol Cartridge vs Rifle Cartridge
Which is it?

It really doesn't matter which a person decides to call it. I think what is important is to be familiar with the history when it comes to Winchester's own classifications and why. We may never know why it is called a "pistol caliber" today. This could be for completely different reasons...apparently taboo and not open for discussion!!

We all know the 44-40 (44 WCF) was first introduced as a "rifle cartridge" during 1873 but soon sought favor when Colt chambered the round during 1877 in their single action revolvers and in 1878 in their double action revolvers.

Winchester started "classifying" their cartridges in 1877 simply calling them Central Fire Cartridges. By 1879 Winchester separated the central fire cartridges into two separate classifications, according to G.R Watrous, January 1943.

During this time Watrous authored a 93 page book entitled Winchester Metallic Ammunition, Brass And Paper Shot Shells. Watrous wrote portions of this book with the help from the following ex-Winchester employees currently employed there at the time or from other's that had passed away over the years.

Paul Bollensanger, employed since 1897
V. E. Rosien, since 1903
M. A. Robinson, since 1904
C. L. Wright, since 1912

Deceased by 1943

A. W. Earl from 1883 to 1919
John Gardner from 1883 to 1908 (Gardner Primer Patents?)
H. O. Whitney from 1884 to 1939
H. C. Trecartin from 1886 to 1925
H. B. Dow from 1887 to 1909

During 1879 Winchester divides the cartridge classifications into two groups

A - Central Fire Cartridges, Short Length Cartridges such as the 38 S&W, 44 Colt, 44 Evens, 45 Webley.
B - Military & Sporting Central Fire Cartridges, Long Length cartridges such as the 40-50 Sharps, 43 Spanish, 45-75 and the 58 Snider

The only exception to this was the 44 WCF (44-40) and the 38 WCF (38-40).

Why? Due to the rapidly increasing popularity of their M/73 rifle, Winchester in order to further increase it's use included both of their calibers in the "Pistol Size" classification, as more liberal discounts were allowed the trade than was given in the "Military & Sporting" classification.

This had absolutely nothing to do with performance!

This classification extended for many years until 1939 when they were changed to;

A - Center Fire Cartridges
B - Center Fire Blank Cartridges
C - Center Fire Shot Cartridges

Removing the "Pistol Size" from the classification equation.

During this time Winchester still used the "K-code" (separate code from the classifications code) pistol cartridge code but changed the code for the 44-40 from a pistol code "T" (K4412T) to a rifle code "C" (K4412C) by 1948...once again classifying the 44-40 as a rifle cartridge.

Eventually during the 1950's, the 44-40 cartridge code changed to simply W 4440 (Winchester) and 4440 (Western).

To keep matters confusing, the 44 W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridges used the pistol "T" code but were not to be used in pistols but did have a separate cartridge code (K4414T).

Even through the 60's and 70's Winchester listed the 44-40 in both the revolver and rifle sections, technical data still shows it as always being a rifle cartridge.

further to this (and has brought me some headbutting hereabouts) 44/40 brass is cut to take rifle primers not pistol - measuring primer pocket depth confirms this to anybody a mind to check it - 44magnum = pistol primer depth, 45 colt = pistol primer depth , 44/40 and 38/40 = rifle primer depth ....they are different!!! ..............who the galoot was that decided large rifle and large pistol primers would be a different height is another argyment (he proly thought he had a good reason at the time - didnt apply it to the small size primers though.

So yes its a rifle round that got adapted to pistols -- if the modern folk participating in this added pistol LENGHT to their descriptions for the winchester rounds this might go away.

[john.k]

You might be interested to know Winchester 44-40 cases were also made to take pistol primers ......I got several packets of 50 thrown in when I bought my 94 in 44-40 in 1973.

[Savvy Jack]

Back in the day they were not called pistol or rifle primers.
305932

[HWooldridge]

SAAMI wasn’t formed until 1913 and I suspect they were not considered an immediate governing entity, so any cartridge/primer standardization prior to their formation may have been haphazard.

[Savvy Jack]

SAAMI wasn’t formed until 1913 and I suspect they were not considered an immediate governing entity, so any cartridge/primer standardization prior to their formation may have been haphazard.

Actually SAAMI was formed in 1926, previously SAMSAA.
Winchester organized their products pretty good till the government stuck their nose into it! During 1926, the major small arms manufacturing group (SAAMI)'s first major project was carried out by the major reduction of obsolete and nearly obsolete black powder and semi‐smokeless powder loads for both shotshells and metallic cartridges. When that undertaking was complete, the number of shotshell loads had been reduced by 95 percent and metallic cartridge loads by 70 percent.

It was by 1928 that Winchester started using what we call today as "large pistol" primers in the 44-40 with the introduction of the new Staynless primers for this cartridge.

BTW, SAAMI lists the 44-40 as a rifle cartridge and can not be found in their Pistol Cartridge section...good thing that haphazard practice was fixed. THANK YOU SAAMI!!!

[indian joe]

You might be interested to know Winchester 44-40 cases were also made to take pistol primers ......I got several packets of 50 thrown in when I bought my 94 in 44-40 in 1973.

Small pistol primers???

Did you measure ? I did (got on the unpopular side of this argument a couple years ago) I measured the primer pocket depth of every different brand and age of 44/40 case I could find from 1950's vintage Dominion, through several decades worth of Winchester, Remington, to the last starline I bought maybe eight years ago, they are made to accommodate large rifle primers ----ALL OF EM matched the primer pocket depth of my rifle only brass (22/250, 38/55, 45/70) I had a few stray 44magnum, 45 colt cases, all of which measured different from the 44/40 and same as each other, they are pistol rounds and are made to accommodate large pistol primers.
Yes you can put a large pistol primer in the 44/40 - it will usually work - if you look close it will sit a little low in the pocket due to the diffference in height - thats no bad thing particularly in a pistol - it gives us more options in safe loading.
You probably can use large rifle in the pistol brass but it will either sit a little proud OR you scrunch it some seating it to correct depth.
Before you come back an call me a fool - get the calipers out and measure - check against your rifle only brass and then against proper pistol brass, and unless the manufacturers have got sloppy or changed the rules in the last few years you will find a difference. Then maybe look at SAAMI specs for verification.

[indian joe]

Back in the day they were not called pistol or rifle primers.
305932

So according to this chart - Winchester at that time - no difference in SIZE across pistol and rifle calibers, only softer or harder metal, and change of compound from black to smokeless powder. ??

[indian joe]

Back in the day they were not called pistol or rifle primers.
305932

So according to this chart - no difference in SIZE across pistol and rifle calibers, only softer or harder metal, and change of compound from black to smokeless powder. ??


Primer pocket dimensions and tolerances

Heres the SAAMI specs

Pocket Type........Depth Min...Depth Max...Diameter Min...Diameter Max
Pocket Dimensions
Large Rifle ...........0.1250.......0.1320.......0.2085....... 0.2100
Large Pistol...........0.1170......0.1230........0.2085. ......0.2100

Primer dimensions
Large Rifle...........0.1230.......0.1360........0.2105. .......0.2130
Large Pistol..........0.1150.......0.1260........0.2100. .......0.2120

some things to note
Pocket diameter = same
Pocket depth = .008 - .010 different (LR deeper)
Primer Diameter = LP .005 - .010 smaller than LR
Primer depth = Large Rifle .008 - .010 Taller than Large Pistol

The difference in primer height / pocket depth was what I got with my calipers when I measured this.
The 44/40 cases I measured would have covered the period from 1955 - 60 Dominion manufacture to 2015 Starline

[Savvy Jack]

So according to this chart - no difference in SIZE across pistol and rifle calibers, only softer or harder metal, and change of compound from black to smokeless powder. ??


Primer pocket dimensions and tolerances

Heres the SAAMI specs
Pocket Dimensions
Pocket Type........Depth Min...Depth Max...Diameter Min...Diameter Max

Large Rifle ...........0.1250.......0.1320.......0.2085....... 0.2100
Large Pistol...........0.1170......0.1230.......0.2085.. ......0.2100

Primer dimensions
Large Rifle...........0.1230.......0.1360........0.2105. .......0.2130
Large Pistol..........0.1150.......0.1260........0.2100. .......0.2120

Winchester Primers Timeline (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/cartridge-details/winchester/primers/smokeless-powder-primers?authuser=0)

Large Pistol vs Large Rifle (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/primers?authuser=0)

[indian joe]

Winchester Primers Timeline (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/cartridge-details/winchester/primers/smokeless-powder-primers?authuser=0)

Large Pistol vs Large Rifle (https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/primers?authuser=0)

Ok I'll go do it again and report back - that result is not what I got first time over - maybe my measuring technique is suspect, but if so why did I get same measure for rifle only cases and I got different measure (as should be) for the designated pistol cases ??? ---this says that winchester and Starline are now departed from SAAMI specs for this case ? why have the specs if manufacturers dont follow ?????

[Savvy Jack]

Ok I'll go do it again and report back - that result is not what I got first time over - maybe my measuring technique is suspect, but if so why did I get same measure for rifle only cases and I got different measure (as should be) for the designated pistol cases ??? ---this says that winchester and Starline are now departed from SAAMI specs for this case ? why have the specs if manufacturers dont follow ?????

I don't know but this has been the same for me for the past 10 years. I have another 150 cases coming in from Starline, at some point, and I will check again.

[Hootmix]

I have been checking my 44-40 cases (Starline) against the COW, (i have both old and the newest versions), and i agree, it dosen't matter,"why", it's all we can get. It's become a one size fit's all world. (Dang am I whinning?) So, the real reason all my shots don't go in the same hole, is my brass is out of SAAMI? (Really, now that's funny).

need more coffee, Hootmix.

[HWooldridge]

I’m speculating here but with the advent of cowboy action shooting, it may be that the manufacturers have lost the semantics of rifle vs. revolver and are assuming everyone is shooting a low velocity pistol round in a rifle.

For my part, I have always used pistol primers in the 44-40, simply because they worked without fail.

[Hootmix]

The late John & now Jack, have been my guide's (and Joe & a few others), for the 44-40, "nuf said". And yes LP primers.

Mak'n a new pot, Hootmix.

[Savvy Jack]

The late John & now Jack, have been my guide's (and Joe & a few others), for the 44-40, "nuf said". And yes LP primers.

Mak'n a new pot, Hootmix.

I think I heard someone once say the the WLP's seated too deep in their Starline cases while the WLR fit well. For me, all my WLR's stick out too far. However, I do use them but only load three at a time while hunting. (currently shooting Beavers). I still grouped well enough to put meat on the table at 250 yards if I was hungry enough to have to shoot that far.

[indian joe]

I think I heard someone once say the the WLP's seated too deep in their Starline cases while the WLR fit well. For me, all my WLR's stick out too far. However, I do use them but only load three at a time while hunting. (currently shooting Beavers). I still grouped well enough to put meat on the table at 250 yards if I was hungry enough to have to shoot that far.


ok pictures first
left is a 44/40 with pistol primer right is a 38/40 with rifle primer.
306008

306009

now the measure I dug out some new RP brass (dont know how old but unfired) measure is right on 0.120 - 0.121 - so thats the fat end of pistol?
winchester 45/70 measure (fired maybe three times) for comparison sake right on 0.125 - skinny end of rifle.
another comparison federal large rifle primer fresh from the box 0.125 - 0.127
large pistol 0.117 - 0.119

old 44/40 brass getting that 0.124 -0.126 -- old is old at my place, time races by and what I think is not old (including me) has got more miles on it than I care to admit.
Q 1 - for years I cleaned primer pockets with a sharp little screwdriver blade with a tapered end on it (so it would get right in the corners) would that be capable of deepening those pockets removing 4 - 5 thou while I wasnt paying attention ? the 44/40 has been shot a lot compared to other stuff in my rack - most of my brass in circulation would be twenty years plus in age
Q2 - from the pictures (the 38/40 is quite recent brass - dont have any of it unloaded to measure) have I been leaning too hard on these primers ? I dont use the compound press - do all my primer seating in a super simplex straight action. Been doing this for 50 years - never had one blow in the press - dont have problems with faulty ignition - almost exclusively federal primers (I like federal cuz I can slacken the mainspring tension on my lever guns and get acceptable trigger without messing up ignition)

Something looks to have shifted here - me ? the brass ? manufacturers ? not important to the original question which was that this thing (44/40) was originally a rifle cartridge and been adapted to pistol use over time - thats not changed.

Back again - I found a batch of RP 44/40 brass that consistently measures rifle depth 0.126 - 0.127 - this stuff looks different in that the headstamp is impressed more deeply and clearer - how old? I have no idea! but obviously some of what got me off track on this deal. Also a bag of starline 44/40 running consistent 0.122 - 0.123

[Savvy Jack]

The call-out "Pistol Primers" doesn't seem to come into play until the 1970's as far as being printed in catalogs. They were always labeled as just numbers on the primer boxes. However, during the early 1980's, the letters "WLP" etc were printed on the primer boxes and the numbers omitted.

The Large Primers were adapted to the 44-40 (replacing the use of the small primers) starting in the late 1920's with the introduction of the "Staynless" primers.
The 44-40/38-40 really started getting kicked in the face by the mid 1970's. In the catalogs both were still offered as a rifle and revolver cartridge. In the rifle section, the 38-40 and 44-40 were the only rifle cartridges that used the "7-111" primers noted by Winchester-Western and shortly into the 1980's, as "WLP".

With the reduced power loads over the years, and use of what was then called "pistol primers", the "-40 duos" were inadvertently pushed into the "Pistol Caliber" group once again but this time by the younger generation of shooters.

[indian joe]

The call-out "Pistol Primers" doesn't seem to come into play until the 1970's as far as being printed in catalogs. They were always labeled as just numbers on the primer boxes. However, during the early 1980's, the letters "WLP" etc were printed on the primer boxes and the numbers omitted.

The Large Primers were adapted to the 44-40 (replacing the use of the small primers) starting in the late 1920's with the introduction of the "Staynless" primers.
The 44-40/38-40 really started getting kicked in the face by the mid 1970's. In the catalogs both were still offered as a rifle and revolver cartridge. In the rifle section, the 38-40 and 44-40 were the only rifle cartridges that used the "7-111" primers noted by Winchester-Western and shortly into the 1980's, as "WLP".

With the reduced power loads over the years, and use of what was then called "pistol primers", the "-40 duos" were inadvertently pushed into the "Pistol Caliber" group once again but this time by the younger generation of shooters.

I dunno Bryan - I've been loading rifle primers in em all my adult life, proly keep doin it so long as it looks to work ok - always been conscious of (not having) proud primers - If I find brass thats too short in the pocket it will get bored out to take shotgun primers - have slabs of those here looking for a home (left by my Dad when he passed) -

I was pretty stubborn on this and while I might have been right at some point it appears thats not so with this centuries components. :oops:

[Savvy Jack]

I dunno Bryan - I've been loading rifle primers in em all my adult life, proly keep doin it so long as it looks to work ok - always been conscious of (not having) proud primers - If I find brass thats too short in the pocket it will get bored out to take shotgun primers - have slabs of those here looking for a home (left by my Dad when he passed) -

I was pretty stubborn on this and while I might have been right at some point it appears thats not so with this centuries components. :oops:

During the 1950's and by 1959, this was Winchester's classification of primers.

I never did complete the list to include all K-Code numbers and shotgun primers.

K4009P: 8 1/2-120 - Large Rifle
K4xxxP: 6 1/2-116 - Small Rifle
K4001P: 1 1/2-108 - Small (Regular) Pistol
K4003P: 7-111 - Large Regular Pistol
K4xxxP: 1 1/2M-108 - Small (Magnum) Pistol
K4xxxP: 7M-111F - Large (Magnum) Pistol

During the 1940's they looked like this;

K1608P - No. 108
K1611P - No. 111 (for the 44-40)
K1615P - No. 115
K1616P - No. 116
K1630P - No. 120

up to the blue boxes they look like this

No. WLP
No. WLR
No. WLRM
No. W209

The new red and black boxes I think dropped the "No.", now just "WLP" etc.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/cartridge-details/winchester/primers/smokeless-powder-primers

[Texas by God]

You might be interested to know Winchester 44-40 cases were also made to take pistol primers ......I got several packets of 50 thrown in when I bought my 94 in 44-40 in 1973.I have a few of those. WRA CO 44WCF headstamp, balloon head, small primer pocket.

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[veeman]

I tried out my new RCBS Cowboy 44-40 dies today. I didn't need to lube the shells at all to resize. Fell easily into the chambers of my Colt SAA.