9x21

[AMG]

Does anyone load for 9X21?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

No, but yes on 9mm Largo.

DG

[barnetmill]

Other than the .38 acp having a semi rim, is there any big difference between a .38 ACP standard loadings vs a 9x21

Google says: 38ACP
Case length .900 in (22.9 mm)

9x21
Case length 21.15 mm (0.833 in)

[Loudenboomer]

I shot 9X21 in the late 80's. Back when we were playing the IPSC game. We would load a little TO warm and make major power factor with a 158 gr. plated bullet. V 3N37 was the powder. Worked well for the times in a Comped CZ 75.

[dtknowles]

Does anyone load for 9X21?

What you are wondering. COL matters more than case length. In a short mag auto the 9x21 is just a 9x19+P. In a longer mag auto the 9x21 is a rimless 38 super. No I don't load 9x21 but I do load 9x19 and 9x23 and 9x23 in a 9x25 mag. One other variable is the thickness of the web in the case head, the support for the case head in the chamber and the pressure you are running. The pistol matters as much as the cartridge.

Tim

[barnetmill]

Other than the .38 acp having a semi rim, is there any big difference between a .38 ACP standard loadings vs a 9x21

Google says: 38ACP
Case length .900 in (22.9 mm)

9x21
Case length 21.15 mm (0.833 in)

I have fired 38 ACP in 9mm largo guns.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

.38 ACP in 9mm Largo pistols is perfectly acceptable, and many of them were stamped 9mm/.38. However, do not shoot .38 Super in 9mm Largo pistols. Finding .38 ACP now days can be difficult.

Here's a 1950's vintage Llama with the slide stamped Cal. 9mm/38 and the broken barrel link resulting from the previous owner shooting .38 Super in it. Sorry about the quality of the photos.

313531 313532

DG

[Rockindaddy]

My supply of reliable 9mm Largo is dwindling !!! I shoot an Astra Machine pistol Model F. I shoots a slow 300 rounds per minute with a shoulder stock. Also have a couple of STAR Model B's in 9 Largo. Tried to shoot my 38 Super reduced cast boolit reloads that shoot well in a Colt 1902. They are a bit to large for the Astra and STAR pistols. Hate to have to buy more brass in 9x21 Largo. Plus another die set up. Thought it might be easier to hand ream the chambers on the STAR and Astra pistols????? The old Spanish military surplus 9 mm Largo has mercuric primers that are becoming dead. Sometimes out of the box you may get a couple of duds. I believe Starline makes the brass. Should be easy with carbide dies to load the stuff. My Lee 6-cavity really cranks out the 150gr lead 38 cal round nose wheel weight boolits. I size them to .358 cause of my old worn barrels.

[dtknowles]

My supply of reliable 9mm Largo is dwindling !!! I shoot an Astra Machine pistol Model F. I shoots a slow 300 rounds per minute with a shoulder stock. Also have a couple of STAR Model B's in 9 Largo. Tried to shoot my 38 Super reduced cast boolit reloads that shoot well in a Colt 1902. They are a bit to large for the Astra and STAR pistols. Hate to have to buy more brass in 9x21 Largo. Plus another die set up. Thought it might be easier to hand ream the chambers on the STAR and Astra pistols????? The old Spanish military surplus 9 mm Largo has mercuric primers that are becoming dead. Sometimes out of the box you may get a couple of duds. I believe Starline makes the brass. Should be easy with carbide dies to load the stuff. My Lee 6-cavity really cranks out the 150gr lead 38 cal round nose wheel weight boolits. I size them to .358 cause of my old worn barrels.

9mm Largo is a 9x23 not a 9x21. Yes, Starline has made 9mm Largo brass. It can be loaded with 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) dies or 38 ACP or 38 Super dies. With the 9x19 dies you just have to adjust the length appropriately.
Tim

[TD1886]

9mm Largo is a 9x23 not a 9x21. Yes, Starline has made 9mm Largo brass. It can be loaded with 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) dies or 38 ACP or 38 Super dies. With the 9x19 dies you just have to adjust the length appropriately.
Tim

The 38 Super is a straight wall cartridge .385 at the base and .385 at the mouth. The 9x19 is tapered. Although you may be able to load the 9mm Largo with those two dies it best to buy the appropiate dies and load it the way it was intended. Some people will tell you that they use 38 Super brass in their 9mm Largos. I have a Star Super Modelo in 9mm Largo and believe me 38 Super brass won't work correctly in my pistol. I had to buy the Largo brass from Starline.

[Battis]

I use .38 Super dies and .38 Super brass to load .38 ACP (but, of course, not .38 Super data). The .38 ACP rounds work in my Astra 400 (9mm Largo). What gun, specifically, uses 9x21?

[Kosh75287]

There's data for 9x21mm in the 50th Ed'n. of Lyman's, though they use a universal receiver with a 5" barrel to obtain their data. Obtained ballistics approach .38 Super "Major" levels. Although, with a 5" stationary barrel and a universal receiver, that's not as much of a problem as it is with actual sidearms.

[TD1886]

I use .38 Super dies and .38 Super brass to load .38 ACP (but, of course, not .38 Super data). The .38 ACP rounds work in my Astra 400 (9mm Largo). What gun, specifically, uses 9x21?

Italy developed the round and the Israeli's kind of adopted it. Mainly it's used or was used in the USPSA/IPSC because it makes more power and being same diameter as the 9x19 you can still get many in a double stack magazine.

[Battis]

I was wondering if the OP had a specific gun he was loading for.

[TD1886]

I long ago converted my Chinese Tokarev to 9x23 which it will also shoot the 38 Super "Rimless".

[dtknowles]

I long ago converted my Chinese Tokarev to 9x23 which it will also shoot the 38 Super "Rimless".

Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

Tim

[TD1886]

Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

Tim

Keep your eye on the slide where the rollers lock into it for cracks. The CZ52 isn't as strong as the Tokarevs and they crack there and the 9x23 and 38 Super are hotter rounds then the 9mm Luger.

[barnetmill]

.38 ACP in 9mm Largo pistols is perfectly acceptable, and many of them were stamped 9mm/.38. However, do not shoot .38 Super in 9mm Largo pistols. Finding .38 ACP now days can be difficult.

Here's a 1950's vintage Llama with the slide stamped Cal. 9mm/38 and the broken barrel link resulting from the previous owner shooting .38 Super in it. Sorry about the quality of the photos.

313531 313532

DG

I have to check the model again, but one of my former spanish pistols in 9mm largo had a barrel with a recoil linkage without a swinging link and is more like the browning hipower. Still not a good idea to shoot a lot of .38 super in it. I had to file a little to get it to accept the semi-rim of the .38 ACP round.
Photo of what the linkage looks like from a star modelo super.
It always give me a bad case of hammer bite.
The take down included a swinging lever.
313667

Here is a little more on:
Super A

From 1946 onward, Star produced a Super version of the model A pistol. Besides the improvements from the model 1940, this as usual consisted of a number of upgrades to the weapon. Mostly the swinging link was replaced with a Sig 210 (or modern Star) style closed cam path integral to the barrel. Related to this, a full-length guide rod with captive spring, and a quick takedown lever were added as well. All of these models have a magazine safety, but one different from the previous S variants, and the extractor is modified to double as a loaded-chamber indicator. Additionally, the sights are improved in shape to make them easier to see, and minor changes were made to the trigger system. These were also apparently exported for extensive foreign military use.
Model Super A

Most Super pistols, of all series, were not labeled with the overall series letter. This has caused no end of confusion, and a number of guns are now sold at surplus as the Modelo Super, or even as model Bs, that are actually model As.

As there are aftermarket barrels available to allow firing of 9 mm Luger/Parabellum ammunition in Largo (model A) pistols, caliber is no longer a completely sure way to identify Super marked pistols. Use care when trying to ID these pistols.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/images/Super_A.jpg

Model AS – Cal 38

A small number — reportedly 60 — model AS pistols were marked "Cal 38" on the side and barrel hood. Per the importer, this indicates they are able to safely chamber and fire .38 Super ammunition. It is unclear if this is the primary chambering, or they are simply upgraded 9 mm Largo dimensioned chambers able to handle the extra pressure.
http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/

[barnetmill]

Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

Tim

Keep your eye on the slide where the rollers lock into it for cracks. The CZ52 isn't as strong as the Tokarevs and they crack there and the 9x23 and 38 Super are hotter rounds then the 9mm Luger.

There is a fellow by the name of clark that did all sorts overloads in CZ52 and T33 Tokarev pistols. The T33 was the stronger pistol. CZ52 has all sorts of problems with it. It breaks firing pins and the hammer drop system is said to be unsafe.

[dtknowles]

Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

Tim


There is a fellow by the name of clark that did all sorts overloads in CZ52 and T33 Tokarev pistols. The T33 was the stronger pistol. CZ52 has all sorts of problems with it. It breaks firing pins and the hammer drop system is said to be unsafe.

I have had three CZ52's and I still have two and an extra slide. I have barrels in 9x19, 9x23, and 7.62x25. I have three strengths of recoil springs. I have spare rollers and firing pins. I have fired a lot of hot 38 super level loads. I did break one firing pin. I have tested the hammer drop on all three guns and they all function properly, but I don't rely on it. I only use it to drop the hammer on an empty chamber.
Tim

[barnetmill]

I have had three CZ52's and I still have two and an extra slide. I have barrels in 9x19, 9x23, and 7.62x25. I have three strengths of recoil springs. I have spare rollers and firing pins. I have fired a lot of hot 38 super level loads. I did break one firing pin. I have tested the hammer drop on all three guns and they all function properly, but I don't rely on it. I only use it to drop the hammer on an empty chamber.
Tim
I would lower the hammer manually. I have not touched mine in years.

[TD1886]

I have to check the model again, but one of my former spanish pistols in 9mm largo had a barrel with a recoil linkage without a swinging link and is more like the browning hipower. Still not a good idea to shoot a lot of .38 super in it. I had to file a little to get it to accept the semi-rim of the .38 ACP round.
Photo of what the linkage looks like from a star modelo super.
It always give me a bad case of hammer bite.
The take down included a swinging lever.
313667

Here is a little more on:
Super A

From 1946 onward, Star produced a Super version of the model A pistol. Besides the improvements from the model 1940, this as usual consisted of a number of upgrades to the weapon. Mostly the swinging link was replaced with a Sig 210 (or modern Star) style closed cam path integral to the barrel. Related to this, a full-length guide rod with captive spring, and a quick takedown lever were added as well. All of these models have a magazine safety, but one different from the previous S variants, and the extractor is modified to double as a loaded-chamber indicator. Additionally, the sights are improved in shape to make them easier to see, and minor changes were made to the trigger system. These were also apparently exported for extensive foreign military use.
Model Super A

Most Super pistols, of all series, were not labeled with the overall series letter. This has caused no end of confusion, and a number of guns are now sold at surplus as the Modelo Super, or even as model Bs, that are actually model As.

As there are aftermarket barrels available to allow firing of 9 mm Luger/Parabellum ammunition in Largo (model A) pistols, caliber is no longer a completely sure way to identify Super marked pistols. Use care when trying to ID these pistols.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/images/Super_A.jpg

Model AS – Cal 38

A small number — reportedly 60 — model AS pistols were marked "Cal 38" on the side and barrel hood. Per the importer, this indicates they are able to safely chamber and fire .38 Super ammunition. It is unclear if this is the primary chambering, or they are simply upgraded 9 mm Largo dimensioned chambers able to handle the extra pressure.
http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/

According to the website you provided they were marked 38 ACP. I don't believe they were stamped 38 Super. If the importer said they could safely fired 38 Super I believe him to be wrong. Let me investigate it more thoroughly.

[barnetmill]

According to the website you provided they were marked 38 ACP. I don't believe they were stamped 38 Super. If the importer said they could safely fired 38 Super I believe him to be wrong. Let me investigate it more thoroughly.
safety is one thing vs will the gun be damaged is another. It also depends on which 38 super loads you are firing. Not all .38 super loads were fully up to spec IIRC and this may have something to do with presence of older .38 ACP guns and someone firing 38 super in them regardless. Under the worst circumstance the shooter is likely not to be seriously injured, but the guns might not stand up to the increase battering of the more powerfully loaded rounds.

[Battis]

Keeping the calibers and guns straight is a chore.
I have:
Astra 600 - 9mm Luger
Astra 400 - 9mm Largo and 38 ACP.
Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer - 38 ACP. I use 38 Super brass, but not 38 Super data.
Star Super SA - marked 9mm on the slide, and 9mm Largo on the barrel. I never tried 38 ACP in it.
The Star Super came with a 9mm Luger barrel, no markings at all.

I probably missed it in the posts, but I'm still wondering what gun was designed for 9x21. Too long for a 9mm Luger, too short for a 9mm Largo (or can it be used as a 9mm Largo short?)

[barnetmill]

Keeping the calibers and guns straight is a chore.
I have:
Astra 600 - 9mm Luger
Astra 400 - 9mm Largo and 38 ACP.
Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer - 38 ACP. I use 38 Super brass, but not 38 Super data.
Star Super SA - marked 9mm on the slide, and 9mm Largo on the barrel. I never tried 38 ACP in it.
The Star Super came with a 9mm Luger barrel, no markings at all.

I probably missed it in the posts, but I'm still wondering what gun was designed for 9x21. Too long for a 9mm Luger, too short for a 9mm Largo (or can it be used as a 9mm Largo short?)

wiki
The 9×21mm pistol cartridge (also known as the 9×21mm IMI, 9mm IMI, 9x21mm Italian, or 9mm Italian) was designed by Jager (Loano, Italy), then adopted and commercialised by Israel Military Industries for those jurisdictions where military service cartridges, like the 9×19mm Parabellum, are or were illegal for civilian purchase (i.e. Italy, France, Brazil, and Mexico).
The overall length of the 9x19 and 9x21 are close, but the cases are different.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/9X21_and_9X19_cartridges.jpg

The cartridge case is also handloaded for competition since it may feed better than the .38 super case due to being truly rimless.
As it is a rimless round, the 9×21mm is used in USPSA/IPSC competition in open class firearms. A rimless case is preferred because, unlike semi-rimmed or rimmed cartridges, it will not tend to lock together with other rounds in a double-column magazine, resulting in a malfunction. As other .38 Super–based rimless cartridges became available, the 9×21mm decreased in popularity in the United States for competition use, but it is still widely used in many other parts of the world.

Synonyms

9×21mm IMI
9 mm IMI
9mm Italiano
Winchester 9×21mm WIN [124-gr. bullet]

I believe the case can be used to duplicate 9mm largo loads without trimming the case.

[Battis]

I've read that and alot of other internet info. So, it looks like the 9x21 was not designed for any particular gun. You can look at a 9x23 and say, yep, that's used in the Astra 400, or Star Super, etc. You can't do that with the 9x21.
If you're reloading the 9x21, what do you use it in?

it is still widely used in many other parts of the world.
In what gun? That's all I'm asking.

Found one:
https://www.recoilweb.com/imported-9x21-glock-17-for-sale-on-gunbroker-144513.html

[barnetmill]

I've read that and alot of other internet info. So, it looks like the 9x21 was not designed for any particular gun. You can look at a 9x23 and say, yep, that's used in the Astra 400, or Star Super, etc. You can't do that with the 9x21.
If you're reloading the 9x21, what do you use it in?

In what gun? That's all I'm asking.

Found one:
https://www.recoilweb.com/imported-9x21-glock-17-for-sale-on-gunbroker-144513.html

It was used in guns that were originally designed to for the 9x19 Luger parabellum cartridge that had the chambers altered to use the 9x21. Many countries will not allow their citizens to own guns in military cartridges.

[Texas by God]

Is the 9x21 the same as the 9mm Ultra?


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[bruce drake]

A company called Robertsons once offered 9x19 barrels for Star Super pistols (in the 90s and before I own a Star Super myself) but I haven't seen any new or used barrels on Ebay or Gunbroker for a while.

I just bought a 500 round box of 9 Super Comp brass from (rimless 38 Super) Starline several years ago and its been my brass for my 9mm Largo chambered pistol since. I use RCBA 38 Super dies with a 9x19 shellholder

regarding 9x21 brass, if Starline make 9x21...which they do....buy them. best brass manufacturer in the country.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/9x21-brass
9x21 can be reloaded using 9x19 dies and the cartridge was basically created for countries (like Mexico and Italy) that don't allow "military cartridges" like 9x19 for its civilian subjects to own. It was designed to fit within standard 9x19 magazines (someone posted a picture earlier showing the identical OAL) and most 9x19 pistol barrels can simply be cut 2mm deeper in the chamber to allow it to be used with the 9x21 cartridge. Any rechambered 9x21 pistol can no longer use the 9x19 cartridge as both cartridges are designed to be headspaced off the case mouth.

[bruce drake]

[QUOTE=Texas by God;5573704]Is the 9x21 the same as the 9mm Ultra?
Sorry. No.
That's a German-made hot .380 ACP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9718mm_Ultra

[Texas by God]

Thanks, Bruce Drake.
My rememberer is skipping.


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