.44 Special DAO

[justindad]

.44 Special DAO, no hammer spur… does it exist? Maybe nickel plated?

[hporter]

http://https://charterfirearms.com/collections/bulldog/products/74421-bulldog-stainless-dao (https://charterfirearms.com/collections/bulldog/products/74421-bulldog-stainless-dao)

They also make this style, which is an enclosed hammer not a spurless:

https://charterfirearms.com/collections/bulldog/products/74410-bulldog-on-duty-ss-standard

S&W made this model 296 in 44 special in the past:

303640

There is one on Gunbroker right now.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Spurs can be removed. Stainless is a better choice than nickel.

DG

[rkrcpa]

Spurs can be removed. Stainless is a better choice than nickel.

DG

I agree

https://i.imgur.com/3o29pmT.jpg

[FISH4BUGS]

The problem with the Charter Arms bulldogs is they don't hold up to a lot of shooting.
I'm not taking full house 44 specials - I am talking a few thousand rounds of mild loads.

[rintinglen]

Both Rossi and Taurus made some in the 90's, IIRC they were K-frame sized 3" guns, with spurless hammers. I handled one of the Taurus guns at the time and it seemed to me to be more robust than the Charter Arms guns.

[david s]

Don't pocket carry mine so it hasn't had the minor surgery of rkrcpa's model S&W 696. My holster covers the hammer spur. The 696 revolvers are an L frame as are the S&W 296 that hporter mentioned. The 296 is an L frame model 642 with its enclosed hammer and being alloy is quite a bit lighter than the 696. Either one is pretty nice though.
https://i.postimg.cc/MKHsGntt/IMG-2172.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/RhKZ1SLY/IMG-2174.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[CDayle]

Have a Rossi 720 DAO. They'd made two flavors, the DAO and a first model which was SA/DA with adjustable sights. Working up loads for it, most powders I'd like to try are unobtainium,naturally....
Any info on Accurate#5 loads? That I have.....

[HWooldridge]

I have an older blued CA Bulldog. It carries well and is quite accurate - I can hit small targets consistently at 20-25 yds. With that said, I’m not sure Charter’s original intent was to create a revolver for plinking. I’m speculating but suspect they designed it as a self defense tool - nothing more. Practice enough to get proficient then load and carry it - shoot a few times a year to stay sharp then repeat. Buy a heavier gun if you want to shoot thousands of rounds. I also have a Colt SAA in .44 Special but wouldn’t trade the Bulldog for anything - it has its purpose.

I carry mine in a trouser pocket and wrap my hand over the hammer when retrieving it - but would not hesitate to bob the hammer if I thought it was necessary. My other carry gun is a 642 S&W in .38 but I’m slightly less confident in my hitting ability at distance with the smaller gun. The .44 also excels at eliminating rattlesnakes with shot shells - the .38 can do the same but with slightly less authority.

[justindad]

There is a 10mm Ruger GP100 with snag-free sights. Maybe I’ll get one of those converted to .41 Special, then bob the hammer. No moon clips for me. I love my K6S DAO.
303690

[rintinglen]

Have a Rossi 720 DAO. They'd made two flavors, the DAO and a first model which was SA/DA with adjustable sights. Working up loads for it, most powders I'd like to try are unobtainium,naturally....
Any info on Accurate#5 loads? That I have.....

With a 200 grain boolit, start at 8.8 and work up to 9.5 grains. Speer #14 lists that for its 200 grain GDHP. Same source lists 8.4 to 9.3 grains for a 250 grain Keith boolit.

I am one of those who has discontinued using Accurate powders due to inconsistencies in burn rate. But you use what have when you can't find what you want.

I would keep my eye out for Red Dot if I were you. I have had very good results using it in my 44 Special cartridges. 4.5 grains with an NOE 230 grain wadcutter is very accurate and that big, flat meplat starts out where a 9mm HP wants to end up.

[HWooldridge]

With a 200 grain boolit, start at 8.8 and work up to 9.5 grains. Speer #14 lists that for its 200 grain GDHP. Same source lists 8.4 to 9.3 grains for a 250 grain Keith boolit.

I am one of those who has discontinued using Accurate powders due to inconsistencies in burn rate. But you use what have when you can't find what you want.

I would keep my eye out for Red Dot if I were you. I have had very good results using it in my 44 Special cartridges. 4.5 grains with an NOE 230 grain wadcutter is very accurate and that big, flat meplat starts out where a 9mm HP wants to end up.

Agree completely on the Red Dot recommendation - I might also add that W231 does a good job, too...

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have one. The S&W 296, it is an L-frame so not really small, too light. Cartridges require an extremely heavy crimp to keep recoil from pulling bullets and disabling gun. Factory recommends 200 grain or lighter ammunition. I like my Charter Bulldog better.

[Kosh75287]

I've shot 3" .44 Specials made by Charter Arms, Taurus, and Rossi. You DO NOT want the Charter Arms iteration. Obtaining a Taurus or Rossi DA .44 Spl. will be more expensive, but the revolver will actually last. Finding a bobbed hammer or shrouding the unbobbed one may take some doing, but it's worth it. I wouldn't bob the standard hammer. Mercifully, they all use the same pattern of speed-loader.

[winelover]

The problem with the Charter Arms bulldogs is they don't hold up to a lot of shooting.
I'm not taking full house 44 specials - I am talking a few thousand rounds of mild loads.

Current round count in my CA Fit for Duty is 1780 rounds of moderate velocity, mostly cast 240 grain bullets. Still as tight as the day I purchased it new, in July of 2016.

303739

Not worried if I ever shoot it loose. CA will repair or replace under warranty. The lightweight Bulldog fills a niche, no other manufacturer want to...............large bore pocketable handgun, that's a joy to carry, all day long. Now, if only Ruger would chamber a LCR in 44 Special to add to the competition.

BTW, I also own a Lew Horton 24-3..........nice gun but no way I'm going to carry that kind of weight, it all day long.

Winelover

[Jtarm]

There is a 10mm Ruger GP100 with snag-free sights. Maybe I’ll get one of those converted to .41 Special, then bob the hammer. No moon clips for me. I love my K6S DAO.
303690

If Ruger would legitimize the round, or Smith on the L-frame, I’d be all over it.

They blow R&D money on a whole lot dumber ideas:

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-350

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mine is a S&W696 No dash, I haven't carried it that much but the gun is a joy to shoot. I have shot it in IDPA shoots a few times and after I found the load it likes best (6.og r of W231/Keith boolit) I was actually hitting what I aimed at.

Randy

[pettypace]

...4.5 grains [of RedDot] with an NOE 230 grain wadcutter is very accurate and that big, flat meplat starts out where a 9mm HP wants to end up.

Hmm... The .44 wadcutter starts out where a 9mm HP wants to end up.

An interesting turn of phrase you have there, rintinglen. But will it stand up to analysis? VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel.html) thinks so...

Here's your .44 wadcutter just starting out:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/wc_43_230_625.jpg

And here's where a 9mm JHP wants to end up:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/msh_50_150_950.jpg

[pmer]

Hmm... The .44 wadcutter starts out where a 9mm HP wants to end up.

An interesting turn of phrase you have there, rintinglen. But will it stand up to analysis? VIRGEL (https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/virgel.html) thinks so...

Here's your .44 wadcutter just starting out:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/wc_43_230_625.jpg

And here's where a 9mm JHP wants to end up:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/msh_50_150_950.jpg

625 fps??? What is Virgel?

[GLL]

Mine is a S&W696 No dash, I haven't carried it that much but the gun is a joy to shoot. I have shot it in IDPA shoots a few times and after I found the load it likes best (6.og r of W231/Keith boolit) I was actually hitting what I aimed at.

Randy

I agree with Mr. Buchanan !

303818

[44MAG#1]

On a non expanding cast bullet does anyone believe that Meplat diameter influences wound path and size.
To put it country simple if we have a 44 caliber bullet traveling 850 fps of a given weight does it make any difference if the Meplat is .250" diameter or .300" diameter or .350" diameter when it comes to wounding capabilities?

[HWooldridge]

On a non expanding cast bullet does anyone believe that Meplat diameter influences wound path and size.
To put it country simple if we have a 44 caliber bullet traveling 850 fps of a given weight does it make any difference if the Meplat is .250" diameter or .300" diameter or .350" diameter when it comes to wounding capabilities?

We'd probably have to do a lot of field testing to know for sure - but about 30 years ago, I shot a couple of does in one season using straight linotype pills loaded pretty hot in my 1895 Marlin 45-70; both deer took two shots each before they fell down. This boolit was from a 455 gr NEI mold with a big meplat that's almost a wadcutter - I seem to recall it is .400 in diameter. I still have the mold but don't use it anymore.

I was about 30 yds away and assumed I'd missed the first shot on both animals. However, the forensic exams showed nice clean .45 caliber holes in one side and out the other. I quit using those bullets on deer and went to a JSP afterwards. So you may be right that the meplat doesn't mean much but other variables can make all the difference in the world. Those straight linotypes might be the cat's meow on big game but our small Texas deer didn't flinch - even though they were walking dead.

[44MAG#1]

HWOOLDRIDGE said, "So you may be right that the meplat doesn't mean much.'
I didn't say that. I didn't reveal how I believe. Just ask what others believe.

[pettypace]

625 fps??? What is Virgel?

From my DAO .44, a 230 grain wadcutter at 625 f/s gives adequate penetration (18"+) and about as much self-defense wound mass as you can get from a non-expanding .44 boolit (or an expanding .38 or 9mm JHP for that matter). It also gives all the recoil I need. More velocity would increase recoil without adding much to the effective wound mass.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Snubby.jpg

VIRGEL (from VIRtual GELatin) is a calculator for estimating penetration and wound mass for handgun ammo. There's an Android version on the Google Play Store and a version here (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel.html) for any computer or phone with a web browser.

[pmer]

thanks pettypace

[billmc2]

I've shot 3" .44 Specials made by Charter Arms, Taurus, and Rossi. You DO NOT want the Charter Arms iteration. Obtaining a Taurus or Rossi DA .44 Spl. will be more expensive, but the revolver will actually last. Finding a bobbed hammer or shrouding the unbobbed one may take some doing, but it's worth it. I wouldn't bob the standard hammer. Mercifully, they all use the same pattern of speed-loader.

I had to reread what you wrote. At first I thought you were saying it would be difficult to find a bobbed hammer for the Charter. I then realized you were talking about a bobbed hammer for the others. Because I had already looked it up, I figured I might as well post it anyway, just in case someone is looking for a Charter hammer.

$30 https://charterfirearms.com/collections/frontpage/products/double-action-hammer

[pmer]

We'd probably have to do a lot of field testing to know for sure - but about 30 years ago, I shot a couple of does in one season using straight linotype pills loaded pretty hot in my 1895 Marlin 45-70; both deer took two shots each before they fell down. This boolit was from a 455 gr NEI mold with a big meplat that's almost a wadcutter - I seem to recall it is .400 in diameter. I still have the mold but don't use it anymore.

I was about 30 yds away and assumed I'd missed the first shot on both animals. However, the forensic exams showed nice clean .45 caliber holes in one side and out the other. I quit using those bullets on deer and went to a JSP afterwards. So you may be right that the meplat doesn't mean much but other variables can make all the difference in the world. Those straight linotypes might be the cat's meow on big game but our small Texas deer didn't flinch - even though they were walking dead.

I've had similar results with 2 does but on the other end of the spectrum. I was using a 6.5 Creedmoore pushing 129 Hornaday Spire Points at the top end of the load data and both deer just stood there for 2-3 shots each. But in my case it looked like the bullets weren't adequate for the velocity as many of the shots didn't exit. I think the range was about 80 yards. On the other hand I've observed golf ball sized holes in deer with 32 Winchester Special at 2200 fps with a RF nose and bigger holes with a 45 Colt carbine going 1600 fps with a .300 meplat.

I don't think there is enough material in those boolits to expand large enough to make the holes as big as they were in those deer and therefore the flat nose must impart additional terminal affect.

I've always used softer alloys though like 50/50 coww-pure and 25/50 coww-pure and never felt the need to use hollow points for hunting. Maybe hollow points start to shine under 1000 fps ?

[44MAG#1]

So, does the Meplat diameter matter or not. If it does than going larger is supported by using a wadcutter simply because VIRGEL??????? supports it over the supposedly smaller Meplat of the truncated cone bullet or if not supported by that why does the wadcutter have such a much better wound volumn?
It seems to me that if Meplat diameter doesn't matter what does it mean?

[HWooldridge]

A bigger meplat may make a bigger difference at normal handgun velocities (tip of the hat to Elmer), but not so much at rifle speeds. If a pistol caliber won’t expand reliably, then go for large caliber and meplat; rifles not so much…

[HWooldridge]

When I was a teenager, a good friend of mine was give a sporterized 7x57 Mauser by his dad - but the only ammo we could find at the time was FMJ; I seem to recall they were 175 gr. Alfred shot one doe broadside but with zero expansion available, he started aiming for quartering or endwise shots. Extending the wound channel through the body had an impressive anchoring effect - most dropped in their tracks or ran only a short distance. He abandoned the practice after we found some JSP cartridges but the FMJ worked pretty well if he did his part. Those military rounds had no meplat at all but they were moving along at whatever clip is normal for 7x57 ammo.

[megasupermagnum]

Of course mepat size matters. If it didn't, we would all be using small flat noses. I think the discrepancy is in the relatively small differences within a caliber. A 44 Keith is ballpark .275" for example, and a 44 WFN might be .350". That isn't a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

[Electrod47]

303888
20 ounce Charter Arms .44 Special "Boomer", Have one myself. PS: I shoot primarily 200 grain DEWS

[Jtarm]

Of course mepat size matters. If it didn't, we would all be using small flat noses. I think the discrepancy is in the relatively small differences within a caliber. A 44 Keith is ballpark .275" for example, and a 44 WFN might be .350". That isn't a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

That’s a difference of 27%, or slightly larger than the difference between a .429 and a .357 bullet.

I’d say that’s bordering on huge.

[megasupermagnum]

That's .075". Having a 44 expand to .750", a gain of almost 1/2", now that is significant.

Comparing a Keith SWC to a WFN, the WFN makes a bigger hole, but it isn't much. Maybe a 50 cal hole rather than a 45 cal hole.

[44MAG#1]

If the other Meplat diameters are insignificant then the VIRGEL????? would only need Wadcutter RN, and MSH. Round Ball is a "Round Nose" or the last ones I saw were.

[megasupermagnum]

Who cares what some computer simulator says. I'm speaking from real world killing animals. It makes a difference, but it isn't earth shattering by any means.

[pettypace]

The problem with the Charter Arms bulldogs is they don't hold up to a lot of shooting.
I'm not taking full house 44 specials - I am talking a few thousand rounds of mild loads.

This sounds like the voice of experience speaking... Could you give some details about just what goes bad on the Bulldogs? Or is just a general loosening up of things that ought not be loose? Also, what do you consider to be "mild loads" for a Bulldog?

[Catshooter]

It's a little more complicated than that.

People have different ideas of what a lot of shooting is and the same with loading levels. 250 rounds a year out of one Bulldog and anything more than a 250 grain bullet over 17 grains of 2400 is "a lot" in my book. So it's easy to say "they shoot loose easy", but with how much of what load? Makes a difference.

Charter has been around for a while, and during that time has had more than one owner. And the owner's idea of quality changed from time to time.

Basically, if it says "Charter Arms" on the barrel it's probably fine. Charco and Charter 2000 not so much.

Today's Charter Arms has customer service that no one can top. Last time I used it they wanted $49.95 to fix anything that was fixable and if it was sent in by an FFL then it was no charge. You pay to ship, they send it back free.

[pettypace]

303888
20 ounce Charter Arms .44 Special "Boomer", Have one myself. PS: I shoot primarily 200 grain DEWS

If Charter Arms would add a front sight, cut 3/4 of an inch off the bottom of the grip, and get it on the list of state approved handguns, I'd be sorely tempted to buy a Boomer. As it is, the "Approved Firearms Roster" (https://www.mass.gov/doc/approved-firearms-roster-9/download) has over 40 different models of Charter Arms .38 Specials (most differing only in model number and finish) and only three .44's (not including the Boomer).

I don't understand the rationale for not having a front sight. Was Charter Arms just trying to sell laser sight grips or do they really think a front sight is of no use on a 2-inch .44?

[winelover]

The Boomer is not for everyone. It's a get off me piece. Lack of front sight, along with bobbed hammer makes it a snag free pocket piece. Grips are changeable. Altamont offers smaller grips, along the lines of the original J frame style. I have a set for my BD. Makes it more pocketable but less controllable.

Winelover