Modern Combat and the 30-30

[45&30-30]

I am not a member of the following forum, I found it on a search, and found it amusing :lol:, I thought a few others would to. If anyone has not had enough reasons, pro or con, of whether the 30-30 is a valid round for anything, including combat, then this is a good thread to help your side. Before you start it is 8 pages and last count, 179 posts. :coffeecom

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421537

[Bret4207]

Ah the High Road, home of countless keyboard commandos. Of course there is that 10% that seem to have their heads on straight, the rest are just dreaming of the day they can become Ahhhnold or Bruce Willis or Steven Segal........

[crabo]

It seems like in one of the off topic threads there was a state govenor that wanted to outlaw lever guns because of their rate of fire, and that was 100+ years ago.

Maybe someone knows what I am referring to.

[jh45gun]

For what its worth I would not feel undergunned with a lever 30/30. Several years ago I had an SKS which I then traded in for an AK clone. My Opinion both were crap in handleing compared to the sleek easy to carry lever gun and the 6.62x39 cartridge did not set me afire either so I got rid of the AK and later got a Model 94 1964 era. Set up with a peep sight and a Fiber optic front sight I really like it. I was with out a 30/30 for years and now I kick my self for missing out all them years just how nice the 30/30 is and how nice the Winchester/Marlin lever guns are. My first deer gun was a lever gun Marlin Glenfield which I did not keep now I wish I would have.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do not own a 30-30... AAAAWWWWW heresy ! But I do own 38´s and 41´s and a 44-40 SRC Winny here... Would I take my lever actions into combat ? Sure would ! I would prefer a magazine loaded rifle. Even stripper clips are faster. BUT when real Combat distances and fire rates are looked at.. a lever action can keep you alive and the other feller leaking profusely.
I did have a 30-30 till last time up there but pulled that tube and mounted a 375 Winchester barrel. So I now have a switch barrel but never put the Caliber.30 back on. So if you need to throw stones it´s only a 5000 mile toss.
Mike God bless you.

[klcarroll]

A 30-30 Levergun for Combat use??? ......Certainly not out of the question!

From the standpoint of ballistics, the 30-30 round is superior to the 7.62x39 in every respect. (...And you may have noticed that the 7.62x39 is the most popular military cartridge in the World.)

In the hands of an experienced rifleman, the levergun's rate of fire is comparable to semi-auto fire. (....Forget full-auto fire in a shoulder fired personal weapon! ...It's just a noise-making "party trick"!)

....And the leverguns do offer one remarkable advantage: They are about the only action design that lets you reload without converting your weapon to a single-shot for the duration of the operation!

Kent

[MT Gianni]

From my views on the news, much to my dismay, modern combat is done from the air with missles and rockets. Armed combat occurs on a "grab and go" when a team inserts into a house to get a bad guy intel has scoped out. On occasions weapons fire is exchanged from some great distance.
I would have no problems going into a battle carrying a lever 30-30. I would like to hear from recent troops overseas if my perception on modern combat is correct. Thanks, Gianni

[EDK]

I read about half the article last night and will return to finish it tonight. The lever action has been viable since the 1860s and the 30/30 is acceptable for most usage in hunting or self defense. The jeering from the "internet/keyboard/gun shop commandos" about assorted "elderly red necks with their thutty-thutty" was pretty loud, but I think the outcome in a real world life and death situation would be kinda upsetting...and terminal...to the "techno ninjas."

My interests are primarily pistols and the MARLINS chambered for the pistol rounds. I like my 45/70 Cowboy rifles, but am starting to use my 30/30 Cowboy rifle and a 20 inch carbine a lot more. They work well and now that I have a plain base mould for them (Thanks to Garandsrus) I can shoot them a lot more cheaply. AND the more I use them, the more I appreciate them.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[sundog]

Gianni, yes, covert night air attacks, but there are still some ops that only a well trained squad of US Marines or Soldiers can handle -- like cordon and search and bldg and room clearing. That is not for the faint of heart. While I would not at all feel under gunned with a 30-30 (or better a 32 Win Spl), the lever gun would leave a little to be desired in very tight quarters in terms of operation and reloading. That is best given over to a reliable mag fed self loader, carbine or pissola -- or shotgun. I'm not advocating the M16, because I do not like it. Other than that, lever guns are fine for any 'social' engagement.

[JSnover]

For close work, sure. I think Jeff Cooper called it a "Brooklyn Special" since pistol-caliber carbines were restricted there. He liked the idea well enough to refer to leverguns chambered in 44 or 45 as "Kansas City Specials" in the same article but I can't remember why. I think it had something to do with using 45 colt or 44 special lever actions as entry weapons in urban areas.

[Slowpoke]

I believe it was the late Frank Marshall Jr that coined the phrase APPALACHIAN ASSAULT Rifle in reference to the 30-30.

"As a law enforcement or home defense gun Frank compared his Winchester to an SKS, calling it his “Appalachian Assault Rifle."

good luck

[jh45gun]

Well they were good enough for law enforcement and prison guards thats good enough for me.

[Old Ironsights]

It was the Governor of Ohio who tried to ban Assault Rifles (Henry's) back in the 1850s.

Somewhere I have an article where a guy used a 30-30 at Thunder Ranch - and did pretty well (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/thunder_ranch.htm).

The Outdoor Channel just did a Positive piece on Leverguns as defensive/house-clearing guns.

IIRC the French Navy bought several thousand Win 1894s before WWI.

I also seem to remember an incident where leverguns were used to great effect in Russia or somesuch...

Personally I think as a Combat Rifle, they are better in pistol calibers, but that's just me. I like 12rds of .357...

[KCSO]

Turkey used levers for thier military till the 1880's. Personaly I carry either a Krag or a M92 in preferene to an AR, so far i have gotten along just fine and ever qual I surprise some of the kids.

[9.3X62AL]

The whole "Patrol Rifle" thing at my old agency created a lot of stress for the admin folks, and in 1999 they selected the AR-15 to replace the Mini-14s that had proven so "deputy-proof" for a very long time. Not an upgrade, AFAIC.

There were 6 pre-64 Winchester 94s in 30-30 at my first duty station. I always thought the lever 30-30 or 357 Magnum was a very fine patrol rifle, and would have chosen same if the agency had authorized the option. Just to give some insight--one of my rangemaster buddies a the time the 223/patrol rifle discussion was under way suggested that deputies also be able to use bolt-action 223s with scope sights, given that schoolyard shootings and takeover bank robberies were the two scenarios being addressed--and a high degree of accuracy is always a good thing at such times. One of the admin functionaries of august rank decreed that such systems were "too accurate for general issue to personnel".

Too accurate. Admin pogue, in full flower. It's nice being retired, believe me.

[MT Gianni]

Thanks Corky. I was friends with a former Army Ranger who served in the Viet Nam war and he said he rarely remembered using aimed fire. Most of his was behind a tree or under cover where his M-16 and wrist were the only thing exposed.

[JW6108]

It was the Governor of Ohio who tried to ban Assault Rifles (Henry's) back in the 1850s.

Somewhere I have an article where a guy used a 30-30 at Thunder Ranch - and did pretty well (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/thunder_ranch.htm).

The Outdoor Channel just did a Positive piece on Leverguns as defensive/house-clearing guns.

IIRC the French Navy bought several thousand Win 1894s before WWI.

I also seem to remember an incident where leverguns were used to great effect in Russia or somesuch...

Personally I think as a Combat Rifle, they are better in pistol calibers, but that's just me. I like 12rds of .357...

The Russians bought 300,00 1895 Winchester rifles in 7.62c54R, with about 293,000 of them being delivered prior to the start of the Revolution. Wouldn't we like to have a big batch of them show up here?

[Three44s]

If I EVER find a weapon that's "too accurate" ..........

....... I will immediately believe that hell has also just froze over!!!


Three 44s

[sundog]

The Duke and Deano in Rio Lobo (?). Yeah, it's just a movie, but,... OH, the lever guns.

[Frank46]

Shooting Gallery on the outdoor channel featured lever actions as tactical rifles. One had a forend with picatinny rail and aimpoint red dot sight. At first had my doubts but as the show went along I eventually came to the conclusion that for home defense a lever action chambered for a pistol cartridge 357-44-45 wasn't such a bad idea. Short, light, easy to operate and in the longer rifle barrel increased velocity. I'm not going to say fool proof but close to it. Frank

[MT Gianni]

The Duke and Deano in Rio Lobo (?). Yeah, it's just a movie, but,... OH, the lever guns.

Would that be Rio Bravo which included Angie Dickenson?

[sundog]

Mighta been, along with Ricky Nelson and Walter Brennan, as Stumpy. Ward Bond was it.

Lots of lever guns. Really good oater...

[45&30-30]

Just pulled this off Netflix:Sheriff John Wayne has a problem: He must keep killer Claude Akins from escaping the town lockup (with outside help from his brother and a cadre of hired guns). The only people Wayne can call on for support are an alcoholic Dean Martin, a well-meaning Angie Dickinson, a crippled Walter Brennan and an eager Ricky Nelson.

It's loading on to my computer now, I think I have to see this.

EDIT: Well heck, I thought I was loading, but I ain't. You have to order it, not Watch Instantly. Oh well. In the Queue it goes for later.

[jh45gun]

While some may disagree there was an article in a Western magazine I get and an article rated Rio Bravo as one of the Dukes best westerns I would tend to agree a good cast and the Duke at his finest. Ol Angie is not hard on the eyes either. :) I have it in my collection I have a moderate collection of Wayne movies on tape.

[Bret4207]

The Duke did two that had the same story line as Rio Bravo- The one mentioned had Duke, Deano, Ricky, Walter and Angie. The other had Duke, Robert Mitchum, James Cann, an old actor whose name I forget in Walters role and a hot chick I forget. Ed Asner played the bad guy in the 2nd one. Both good, I prefer James Canns "Mississippi" with his sawed off, holstered double 12 to Ricky Nelson.

On the 30-30, etc. If you hang out at THR, Frugal Squirrels, Time Bomb 2000, etc you'll see that everything is geared towards the arrow, not the indian. Gear makes the man at all those places. You don't have a 30-30 or 270, goodness no. You have a MBR ( main battle rifle) or EAR (enhanced assault rifle). You don't have a local neighborhood, you have an AO (area of operations). You must never, as an OPERATOR (!!!) let your LOA (level of awareness) drop below Condition Yellow. You BOB ( bug out bag) contains enough supplies, gas masks, knives, flares, C4, Det Cord, shelter haves and MRE's to outfit Grants army.

After a little while you realize 99% of the posters have never ventured outside their condo or their mom's basement without wearing a Haz Mat suit and SCBA, at least not willingly. The other 1% keep you coming back and giving you faith there's a least a couple folks out there with enough common sense to stay alive after the sun goes down.

BTW- Cast Bullets? They're patently unsafe and unusable.

[Junior1942]

Thanks, guys! Just added two movies to my queue!

[Old Ironsights]

The Duke did two that had the same story line as Rio Bravo- The one mentioned had Duke, Deano, Ricky, Walter and Angie. The other had Duke, Robert Mitchum, James Cann, an old actor whose name I forget in Walters role and a hot chick I forget. Ed Asner played the bad guy in the 2nd one. Both good, I prefer James Canns "Mississippi" with his sawed off, holstered double 12 to Ricky Nelson.

On the 30-30, etc. If you hang out at THR, Frugal Squirrels, Time Bomb 2000, etc you'll see that everything is geared towards the arrow, not the indian. Gear makes the man at all those places. You don't have a 30-30 or 270, goodness no. You have a MBR ( main battle rifle) or EAR (enhanced assault rifle). You don't have a local neighborhood, you have an AO (area of operations). You must never, as an OPERATOR (!!!) let your LOA (level of awareness) drop below Condition Yellow. You BOB ( bug out bag) contains enough supplies, gas masks, knives, flares, C4, Det Cord, shelter haves and MRE's to outfit Grants army.

After a little while you realize 99% of the posters have never ventured outside their condo or their mom's basement without wearing a Haz Mat suit and SCBA, at least not willingly. The other 1% keep you coming back and giving you faith there's a least a couple folks out there with enough common sense to stay alive after the sun goes down.

BTW- Cast Bullets? They're patently unsafe and unusable.

LOL!

Flashbacks to ARFCOM Mall Ninjas... :mrgreen:

[Scrounger]

Rio Bravo had John Wayne, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson, Walter Brennan, and Angie Dickinson.
The other was El Dorado, with John Wayne, Robert Mitchum, and James Caan. The "old coot" was Arthur Hunnicut. His "gimmick" in the picture was blowing a trumpet. The "chick", and she was a real looker, was Charlene Holt.
Two really excellent movies. Hollywood doesn't have a high opinion of the intelligence of it's customers, so "copying" movies is a very common thing to do. All those old western TV series we had back in the 50s and 60s like Cheyenne, Maverick, Big Valley, etc, are being served again on cable/satellite, in this case on Encore Westerns. I saw one show on Cheyenne, made in '56 or'57, and the very same script made again 2 or 3 years later on Maverick. They even had the effrontry to use the same actress, Diane Brewster, to play the same character in both shows. She later became better known as "the Beaver's" second grade teacher. Another looker.

[Freightman]

The reason stated is why until I found this site I had almost quit forums THR , AK, whatever were driving me up the wall

[Blazin]

If you hang out at THR, Frugal Squirrels, Time Bomb 2000, etc you'll see that everything is geared towards the arrow, not the indian. Gear makes the man at all those places.

VERY well said.

[BD]

5 or 6 years ago when the idea of 3 gun matches and "Tactical" rifle matches was just getting going at Big Pine Gun Club up in central Maine, I shot in a number of the early ones. There was quite an assortment of redneck assault rifles entered. Generally it was an AR that won the match, but there were AR's that lost as well.

These matches were a mix of close up stuff, 100 yard targets and 200 yard steel targets. There were generally a couple of 20 yard dashes involved and at least one setup forcing you to go prone.

I entered twice with my "truck" gun, a cut down Swede using stripper clips. I didn't win, but I think I stayed in the top half of the finishers in the first match, and I was in the top 3 for the sections I completed in the second match before I dropped out to let the barrel cool after 30 rounds. There were a few guys shooting levers who stayed in the running as well. I think it was after dropping out in the second match that I borrowed an AR and finished 2nd.

After that I did buy an AR, but I really don't feel unarmed with the old swede, and in the type of trouble we're likely to see domestically I think I'd prefer the ability to send out the 140 grainers.

Interestingly, in those early matches when none of the participants really had a clue, with one exception it was older guys shooting the rifles they were familiar with who put on the best performances. The exception was one guy in his 20's who was in excellant shape and had really put some time with the AR. Pretty much anyone shooting anything could dump 3 rounds into a IDPA target at 10 yards. It was the 200 yard targets that sorted things out, and the "hunting" rifles were smoking those.

BD

[9.3X62AL]

The reason stated is why until I found this site I had almost quit forums THR , AK, whatever were driving me up the wall

What? Are you saying that tacticool ninjatude isn't your thing?

[jh45gun]

Actually there were three movies that were pretty much alike.

Rio Bravo 1959 with the crew mentioned above Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson Some consider this Howard Hawks best western even better than Red River

El Dorado 1967 with James Cain Robert Michum Arthur Hunnicutt ect an other Hawks western pretty much a rehash of Rio Bravo.

Rio Lobo 1970 an other Hawks western which was a rehash of the other two only this time it starred Jack Elam as the side kick that in the other movies Walter Brennen and Hunnicutt played the parts. In this one Chris Mitchum played the same sort of part that Ricky Nelson and James Cain played in the earlier movies.

Of course all three had the girl Angie Dickenson in the first one, Charlene Holt in the second and Jennifer O'Neil in the third.

[jh45gun]

In case your wondering how I know this I got lucky one time at a flea market and bought a magazine for 5 bucks (Cover price was 2.50 LOL ) that was a tribute to the Duke and had every movie he ever made listed along with who starred in it and a brief synopsis of the movie. To me it is a priceless piece of info.

[Scrounger]

Seen them all many times. And if they was all on back to back tonight, I'd be setting there watching them again...

[onceabull]

Darn tough to beat Rob.Mitchum @ playing a drunk with little left to lose..:-? Onceabull

[45&30-30]

Allright, I can't take it anymore, I'm moving the movie to the TOP of my Netflix Queue, I'll see it in a couple of days...

[Bret4207]

Actually there were three movies that were pretty much alike.

Rio Bravo 1959 with the crew mentioned above Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson Some consider this Howard Hawks best western even better than Red River

El Dorado 1967 with James Cain Robert Michum Arthur Hunnicutt ect an other Hawks western pretty much a rehash of Rio Bravo.

Rio Lobo 1970 an other Hawks western which was a rehash of the other two only this time it starred Jack Elam as the side kick that in the other movies Walter Brennen and Hunnicutt played the parts. In this one Chris Mitchum played the same sort of part that Ricky Nelson and James Cain played in the earlier movies.

Of course all three had the girl Angie Dickenson in the first one, Charlene Holt in the second and Jennifer O'Neil in the third.


Rio Lobo! I knew I was forgetting one! Jen O'Neil was just a baby then and sooooo good looking. Of course that was before she went anti-gun.....:twisted:

[MT Gianni]

The Duke did two that had the same story line as Rio Bravo- The one mentioned had Duke, Deano, Ricky, Walter and Angie. The other had Duke, Robert Mitchum, James Cann, an old actor whose name I forget in Walters role and a hot chick I forget. Ed Asner played the bad guy in the 2nd one. Both good, I prefer James Canns "Mississippi" with his sawed off, holstered double 12 to Ricky Nelson.
We toured Old Tuscon in 1990 and AIRC the guide said Ricky Nelson was hot stuff on the Ozzie & Harriet show so he negotiated a deal with the producers that included 3 movies to re-up for the Ozzie & Harriet show. This was the first.
It is still one of my favorites though not because of him. Walter Brennan shows the appropriate role of a handicapped person working without any affirmative action. The Mexicans shown are hardworking business owners and accepted as friends and equals by Wayne and others. Angie D is flat out smoking. Community people take sides and take action. No wonder they don't make them like this any more.

[jh45gun]

Yea even though Rio Lobo was not accepted as well as the other two I liked it Jack Elam is a hoot. Even the worst John Wayne movie if there is such a thing after Stage Coach is still heads above some of the crap they put out today.

[Scrounger]

I'll back that statement if you'll remove "some' from the last line...

[EDK]

For close work, sure. I think Jeff Cooper called it a "Brooklyn Special" since pistol-caliber carbines were restricted there. He liked the idea well enough to refer to leverguns chambered in 44 or 45 as "Kansas City Specials" in the same article but I can't remember why. I think it had something to do with using 45 colt or 44 special lever actions as entry weapons in urban areas.


"Brooklyn" and "Kansas City" refer to the location of the correspondents. It appeared in Coopers Column in GUN AND AMMO and also in THE GARGANTUAN GUNSITE GOSSIP, volume 1, pages 680 and 692. Losing Colonel Cooper still saddens me.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[jh45gun]

OK all the crap they put out today better? LOL

[JSnover]

"Brooklyn" and "Kansas City" refer to the location of the correspondents. It appeared in Coopers Column in GUN AND AMMO and also in THE GARGANTUAN GUNSITE GOSSIP, volume 1, pages 680 and 692. Losing Colonel Cooper still saddens me.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

Thanks for refreshing my memory. He did assign the nicknames based on where his followers wrote from.. At the time I was putting together a blue-collar defensive battery. I liked the idea so much I bought a marlin 1894 in .357 since I already had dies for it.

[Boerrancher]

I have 4 guns that I do not feel handicapped at all with when I hear things going awry down here in the valley. All of which are lever guns, and I just grab what ever one is the closest. I heavily rely on my winnie 94 30-30 the most, followed by my winnie 92 45LC, it is a toss up between my mod 66 in 44-40, or my Marlin 94 in 357mag. I have killed many a running 'yote stone cold dead between 150 and 200 yds with all of those rifles. With ammo positioned in various pockets I can keep up a steady rate of fire for a long, long time. It was posted earlier about the 30-30 being hands down better than the 7.62x39, which I have fired a lot of and been fired at a number of times with, and all I can say is I will take my 30-30 lever gun over any SKS or AK type rifle any day. I can shoot farther, flatter, and more accurate, with more energy delivered on target than the 7.62x39 ever dreamed of.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

9.3X62AL

"There were 6 pre-64 Winchester 94s in 30-30 at my first duty station." I always thought the lever 30-30 or 357 Magnum was a very fine patrol rifle, and would have chosen same if the agency had authorized the option."

Same here. My first duty station with OSP had all the patrol cars equiped with pre-64 M94s that were shot very little. As the recruit there I got the oldest patrol car assigned to me every shift. No one else drove it which was fine with me. Besides a few rattels the old Dodge 440s would still hit 'light speed" on the freeways. It also had a very nice saddle ring M94. I had it zeroed for the issues ammo and filed the next notch on the slide so it was a perfect 200 yard zero with my reload of 125 gr Sierra SP over enough H335 to give it 2450 fps. As the recruit I always patroled the secondary roads and got the off the wall calls out in the hinterlands of NE Oregon. The "troopers" always worked the freeways to get the "rocks in the box" for stud book credit. That was fine with me. I would carry 3 rounds in my shirt pocket and managed to smoke numerous coyotes with that load. I'd just slide the sight slide back the one notch and slip one round into the mag. Then a simple lever put the 125 gr load up the spout. I also frizbee'd a few rock chucks with that load.

If we read Col. Coopers writings on the "scout" rifle we find he valued the M94 30-30 carbine as the first of the "scout" rifles. All it needed was the addition of a receiver sight (the scout scope was not necessary). I have a scout mount for my M94 carbine (it wears a receiver sight also) and it is indeed a fast handling rifle for such a purpose. I would not have a problem using a M94 in a civilian "combat" role and often times that is what I carry. The new Hornady LeveRevolution ammuntion is a leap forward in ammo for them.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

From my views on the news, much to my dismay, modern combat is done from the air with missles and rockets. Armed combat occurs on a "grab and go" when a team inserts into a house to get a bad guy intel has scoped out. On occasions weapons fire is exchanged from some great distance.
I would have no problems going into a battle carrying a lever 30-30. I would like to hear from recent troops overseas if my perception on modern combat is correct. Thanks, Gianni

Your perception is incorrect. You've been watching the history channel too much. The high speed, low drag crap always gets the attention. The spec op "operators" are always far more interesting than infantry grunts Ican criticise here because I was both). Then their are the pilots. Their great, just ask them.

There are still lots of infantry (Soldiers and Marines) in Iraq and Afghanastan doing the traditional infantry role in platton, company and battalion sized operations. There's little glory in it, lots of danger and lots of sweat. That's why it's not reported as the major news folks haven't wanted to go with infantry for some time. They'd rather stay in Bagdad or Kabul and get their info from PA types in air conditioned briefing rooms with tables of refreshments provided.

The M4 and it's attendant lack of "stopping power" is only successfull because of our Soldier/Marine's marksmanship ability and the rate of firepower (we can afford to shoot 30 rounds at one insurgent). Your Ranger buddy would have gotten his ass kicked in the 173d for shooting that way in Viet Nam when I was with them (May '65 - June '66). He probably was right though. But then who owns South Viet Nam these days. We can wine all about the politicians and "Peace with honor" but the fact is "we" lost the war in Viet Nam. Perhaps if our Soldiers/Marines would have shot better they casualty rate wouldn't have been as high and we might not have lost. Hard to say but infantry that can't shoot (that means aimed fire to hit the enemy not "spray and pray") can't win. That was proven over and over in the last 200 years.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I'll back that statement if you'll remove "some' from the last line...

Not all movies today are bad- The "Mummy" movies are pretty good and you have ones like "Hildago", "Appoloosa", "3:10 to Yuma", "Iron Will", "Master and Commander", "Quigly Down Under" etc. that are still decent filcks. They aren't all of the caliber of "The Quiet Man", "The Big Country", "Will Penney" or "Tom Horn", but they do give you hope.:drinks:

[jh45gun]

Selleck makes good westerns but not enough of them and I just watched Appoloosa and while OK was not that great still it beat most of the crap coming out of hollyweird just because it was a western.

[45&30-30]

jh45gun, I was reluctant to watch Appoloosa the first time. I watched it two more times after that. I loved the one liners and monologues. Like how they describe their work, "I don't kill people for a living. I enforce the law. Killing is sometimes a byproduct." or the realtionship between the two hired guns, "It's hard to like a man who doesn't drink a little," "Hard but not impossible." and who can forget what a man likes about a woman, “she chews her food good”. I could go on, but this movie was in the dialogue. Loved it.

[jh45gun]

Oh I am not saying it was all bad just that it would be better if hollyweird did not hype the heck out of them that way even if it is an average movie you would not mind it as much.

[45&30-30]

I understand what you mean, that is why I haven't watched tv for 10 or 12 years and radio for the last year. I don't need someone giving me my opinion of something before I see it. It is refreshing to see something from an untainted point of view. Kind of like politics. The media chooses your candidate for you. If we could get America to stop watching the tv and listening to the radio they could learn to think again and form their own opinions. This country would be a different place, even if people tried it for three months they would see a different side of life they never dreamed was there. Propoganda is powerful, no matter which side you are privy to.

[BRYAN]

Had to comment on this issue. As a soldier and rifleman, I am sure that I could use any rifle effectively, but some do some jobs better. While its fun to wax nostalgic about fine leverguns, anyone carrying one onto the modern battlefield would do himself and his buddies a disservice. A good rifleman may hold his own with his levergun against a wet behind the ears recruit with an M-4, but a trained soldier will take out a lot of cowboys in a very short time. This notion that all soldiers armed with M-16's and varients "spray and pray" is not accurate. There are those times when the ability to get a lot of lead in the air, to get the other teams head down long enough for you to find better real estate, will save the day. The M-4 with a CCO or ACOG, paired with a rifleman can put sustained, accurate fire on target that a levergun can't compare to. When I went on patrol in Sadre City, I would have felt naked as a newborn babe with a levergun. For home defense, stateside duty, basic survival needs a levergun has a lot to offer, but not on the modern battlefield.

[Bret4207]

We'll we aren't talking about the modern battlefield- we're talking about wannabees dressing up in camo and playing ninja games on the weekends and then mouthing off about it on various websites like The High Road. Many of us here are former military and realize the huge difference between life on the internet and real life. Should the USA become a 3rd world country (very likely with the Chocolate Messiah running things and the general "ME, ME, ME!!!" attitude these days) then I want the biggest, fastest, and the mostest in weaponry I can get. While I don;t own anything like a taticoolmallninjaextremeplasticmainbattlerifle, I think this old Marine could give at least a little trouble to anyone attempting to remove me and mine from this earthly existence.

[Rodfac]

Bryan, you said it right. If we're talking about modern combat (you mean desert or jungle or what?) then something that puts out the rounds quickly and relatively accurately is what will do the job. Fire and movement...basic doctrine since the end of the WWl. Pin 'em to the ground with overwhelming firepower, flank 'em out into the open with the rest of your people, then kill 'em when they run. 'Nam, Iraq, Afganistan, pretty much the same, tho distances vary. A .30-30 will not do that. Give any Marine or soldier the choice...he'll take the "Mouse-gun" anytime. ?More "smack" with a bigger caliber? Yep, but that's not what was issued. The tactics revolve around the issue weaponry. House to house, as in Iraq, changes things radically. If you want to do the job, and can't use overwhelming explosive force, (civilians casualties etc), then you can expect up to 50% casualties, if the bad guys are motivated. And the more firepower you can deliver into the dwelling at VERY close range, the better. Rodfac, 'Nam 70, my first tour.

[jh45gun]

The thing I think some of you are overlooking is that the average gun owner is not going to buy a black rifle or AK/SKS ect for a military type action yea some folks will and some will have all the ammo to feed it some will not. The thing is if SHTF most gun owners will grab what they have and what they can feed ammo to. For many that might be a shotgun or a 22 LR. Others there favorite deer rifle. No a 22 cannot defeat body armor but it could shoot the legs out of a combatant and put him out of action or some other place that flesh is present.

I think we are not talking about lever guns being issued to troops but if it would work if you the john Q citizen needed a gun. In that case I think it would. If we ever got attacked think of the movie Red Dawn they used guerrilla tactics and while later they used captured guns at first they used what they had. Yea its fiction but it made sense. Our forfathers in the Revolutionary period fought the Brits like indians too they were some of the first guerrilla fighters

[waksupi]

If I had my druthers, I'd druther not go up against a bunch of old elk hunters up in the mountains , or antelope hunters out on the plains, with their bolt action rifles. Something tells me things may be a bit uncomfortable on the receiving end.

[Old Ironsights]

... No a 22 cannot defeat body armor but it could shoot the legs out of a combatant and put him out of action or some other place that flesh is present.
IIRC back during one of the Balkan conflicts the (Chech?) Olympic Pistol Team (holed up in a cemetary) held off all commers with their .22 Free Pistols by poking out Eyeballs...

I think we are not talking about lever guns being issued to troops but if it would work if you the john Q citizen needed a gun. In that case I think it would. If we ever got attacked think of the movie Red Dawn they used guerrilla tactics and while later they used captured guns at first they used what they had. Yea its fiction but it made sense. Our forfathers in the Revolutionary period fought the Brits like indians too they were some of the first guerrilla fighters

If you need a MBR, even a single shot smoothie will get you one. Remember the "Liberator"?

[tom barthel]

I am not a member of the following forum, I found it on a search, and found it amusing :lol:, I thought a few others would to. If anyone has not had enough reasons, pro or con, of whether the 30-30 is a valid round for anything, including combat, then this is a good thread to help your side. Before you start it is 8 pages and last count, 179 posts. :coffeecom

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421537

A hit is a hit with anything. A miss is a miss. Put the bullet in the right place and it WILL work. That's anything from a .22 short to a .50 caliber. As for combat. Check with any big city police department and see what the gangs are using. Use what you got and don't look back. In combat, he who hesitates is lost. If you are planning combat, prepare. If you are planning a hunt, prepare. Remember what was used before we had all these super whiz-bang long range monster killing shoulder breaking calibers.

[45&30-30]

Got Rio Bravo tonight, half way through and that Stumpy steals the show, Carlos adds some flavor to. That Colt sure looks small on Wayne's hip. More like a chicken leg than a hog leg on him.

[45&30-30]

Stumpy took the second half too, but I think the Winchesters beat him in one scene when they layed down supressive fire. The way I heard it 'suppresive fire' is a new term for 'make a little noise.'

Interesting how Wayne dealt with the nightie she was wearing in one scene. You don't see that now a days. Lot of things they let you work through in your own mind instead of just saying it for you. They really don't make 'em like they used to.

[jh45gun]

Yea Ol Walter was a great character actor. He won three academy awards for his work and many consider him one of the greatest character actors ever. Even though it was kinda a hokey western I always liked The guns of Will Sonnett. He was a rare breed in hollywood as Brennan was politically conservative. Just for that I like him LOL

[pmeisel]

I always thought one of Walter Brennan's best roles was as the minister in Sgt. York. That was a pretty good flick too.

[bart55]

this is such a great thread, I agree that Walter Brennan was a great actor and as a kid I loved him as grandpappy amos in the Real McCoys

[45&30-30]

The following article details some of the gunfights of a man who preferred leverguns among others. Though not combat in the sense I started the thread, I am sure the man in the moment would know no difference. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-509297_ITM

[jdowney]

Not all movies today are bad- The "Mummy" movies are pretty good and you have ones like "Hildago", "Appoloosa", "3:10 to Yuma", "Iron Will", "Master and Commander", "Quigly Down Under" etc. that are still decent filcks. They aren't all of the caliber of "The Quiet Man", "The Big Country", "Will Penney" or "Tom Horn", but they do give you hope.:drinks:

I don't know man, I've only seen 3 out of that list, "Hildago" and "Quigley" were fun flicks but had some definite credibility problems, and "Master and Commander" positively made my teeth ache (yes, you guessed it, I'm a fan of the books). I have seen some recent movies in a similar class with the old classics, but I could probably count them on two hands if not one. Two favorites are "Micheal Collins" and "Millers Crossing" (neither are westerns).

My mom just told me she really enjoyed "Defiance", so I'm going to have to catch that one when it makes it to video.

[jdowney]

Darn it, now you guys have made me want to go pick up a nice lever in 44 mag or 357 :mrgreen:

[northmn]

My son returned recently from Iraq. For urban warfare a lot of marines carry Mossberg 500's with buckshot. Kind of like the old 94 trench cleaners in WWI. I told him one time that I would prefer a shotgun in those situations to a M16. He thought the saw gun was great but found out they liked the 500's. A sporting weapon like a 30-30 in the hands of one who can use it is pretty effective. Most of the wannabe commandos think panic and spray. I still carry a prejucice against semi-autos from early deer hunting days when the auto users in my deer hunting party made noise and got darn few deer. Those using 94's and bolt guns made less noise and had more deer.

Northmn

[Boerrancher]

A good gun is like a good woman. It doesn't matter the size or the shape, and just like a woman if you get to messing around with others it will do nothing but mess with your mind and you will lose touch with the reality of what you actually have. I got to work for a while as part of a hunter/killer team, during war games. I can tell you for a fact that 2 men with bolt guns can keep a 200 man company awake and in terror all night long, night after night after night, until their higher HQ brings in a sniper.

Would I take my old lever gun to charge up a hill in hopes of capturing it, or use it to fight from house to house in the streets of a town or city? NO. I will say though that if you chase me into the woods of the Ozarks, and I have my old lever gun, you better have an army to back you up, because if you don't I am probably going to come out on top of that situation. There is something to be said for how deadly a man with a 30-30 and a knack for avoiding trouble can be if trouble finds him.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Bret4207]

I don't know man, I've only seen 3 out of that list, "Hildago" and "Quigley" were fun flicks but had some definite credibility problems, and "Master and Commander" positively made my teeth ache (yes, you guessed it, I'm a fan of the books). I have seen some recent movies in a similar class with the old classics, but I could probably count them on two hands if not one. Two favorites are "Micheal Collins" and "Millers Crossing" (neither are westerns).

My mom just told me she really enjoyed "Defiance", so I'm going to have to catch that one when it makes it to video.

Credibility? It's a MOVIE! :mrgreen: Yeah, I know they did a job on "Master and Commander" but you know it would take hours to explain the whole story so that you could understand the interplay between the characters. Just trying to put Stephens character onto to film would be extremely difficult, I was 4 books into the series before I started to figure him out. Trying to work Tom Pullman and all the characters into a movie and do them justice.....really, really hard to do. As a TV series it could work, it would be sort of like "Lost" only you'd be able to figure things out! Never happen though, too much history, too slow, too much thinking.

[jdowney]

Credibility? It's a MOVIE! :mrgreen: Yeah, I know they did a job on "Master and Commander" but you know it would take hours to explain the whole story so that you could understand the interplay between the characters. Just trying to put Stephens character onto to film would be extremely difficult, I was 4 books into the series before I started to figure him out. Trying to work Tom Pullman and all the characters into a movie and do them justice.....really, really hard to do. As a TV series it could work, it would be sort of like "Lost" only you'd be able to figure things out! Never happen though, too much history, too slow, too much thinking.

Yeah, I don't remember much about either movie, saw them once I believe. I do seem to remember Tom snapping a sight onto his rifle and not having to do any zeroing, wouldn't be too hard to work some reality in on details like that. Both good stories though.

I would have preferred to see M&C as a mini-series or several movies, but my beef had more to do with the screen writing and casting than condensing the story. Maybe that has to do with already having formed a view of the characters which were not consistent with the movie's interpretation. That's life I guess.

Did you see the Winds of War and War and Remembrance mini-series' in the late 80's? That's more like what I'd have liked to see for O'Brian's works, though perhaps TV audiences have slipped so much in 20 years that it wouldn't fly.

Another excellent series to catch is a 1970's BBC production titled Danger UXB. Saw it when I was a kid and just found it on DVD a few years ago. First half the episodes are the best, then they got a little too psychiatric with the characters in the last couple, but the writing wasn't tight enough to carry it off. Well worth the time if Netflix has it though.

[BuckBall]

New guy here and need to chime in on this. I have but one firearm...a marlin 336 in .30-30. I've also seen combat (under fire) in 4 conflicts with the UK Military after 16 years of service and I've never liked the .223 for combat as it takes more than one round to knock off someone and if you're lucky enough for a head shot while taking fire, then yeah, one round does the job. With the .30-30, it has more knock down power with one shot making it so I can move on to the next yahoo in my sites.

I have a Marine buddy who had a competition with me...more like me shutting his mouth after he was shooting it off. He swore his .223 was better than my little lever. Uh huh, right. So here we stood at the range. A 6 shot marlin going up against a 30 shot LR-300 (AR knock off). Sure he has more rounds, BUT, I could load faster and aim quicker and pop off rounds just as accurately. How so? If you think about loading an AR, you eject mag, remove new mag from pouch, insert, cycle, aim. With the marlin, you reach in pocket, grab a handful, insert shells, chamber, aim and fire and I did this all before my buddy could chamber a round himself. My hits are accurate, not spraying in an attempt to put a round in the black or bulls eye. Both rifles...lever and MBR have their place, but I have 1 rifle, I shoot it well and I hit what I aim at and I wont hesitate taking it into combat if I needed to.

Most yahoos who talk about wanting an AR, AK and so forth are pretty much talking crap when they think they can handle themselves in the heat of battle and still take out the invading army they are facing. Anyone who has seen the morbid scenes of pure hell can truly say that it's no easy task to hit what your aiming at IF you don't have the training to hold that weapon steady, let alone being able to stomach the image of your target when your bullet hits and no, it's not the same as big game hunting. For those who never been in a fire fight or gun battle on the streets...no MBR is going to save your butt, nor is having as many rounds as you can carry. A lot more goes into it than what weapon you carry. Just my $.02 worth.

[felix]

Well, now, they have full auto 12 standard gage guns and about a dozen of different cartridges for it. Saw it in action on YouTube. ... felix

[sargenv]

We have a local rifle match once a year. There are 5 divisions, Open (all the bells and whistles usually AR's), Limited (Iron Sights, usually AR but can be any other semi-auto), Tactical (One piece of glass whether it is an optic, variable or fix power scope, or red dot of some type), Cowboy (lever gun!) and Sporting rifle (Bolt gun, generally scoped, no bipod). I shot the Sporting rifle division in 308 (Model 700 V with the 5 round feed through the top magazine) and finished in the middle of the pack.. the one good thing was that Major power factor (260 Rem and above) only needed 1 hit on paper to neutralize, anything minor required two hits (AR's) so a 40 rd course of fire for an AR would work out to be 20 rounds min for me. The only time this became an issue was when we were shooting steel, then it was 1 for 1. I still cleaned the clocks of a lot of Semi-auto shooters.. with my 700! But then it came down to knowing your zero and making every shot count.. I had a LOT of fun with it.. I may do it again this year..

[6.5 mike]

I've read the same post, fumbling around on the boat. Would I feel under gunned in a fight, NO. As was pointed out, you can reload without being a single shot, 30-30 is a better round than a 7.62, cast or j'word. You don't have to relay on gas pressure to make it operate, will shoot any thing you stick in it, pretty much a KISS theory.
Another thing, it wo'nt ping the LEO's like an ar or ak. Just a good old boy & his 30-30
so less for the news winnies to get a hold of.
We had some problem awhile with 3 alpha hotels kicking in doors. While home I spend most of my time outside durning the day, used to keep a 96 beretta with me. After these clowns showed, 2 with handguns & 1 with a rifle, I switched to a 94 win, rec site & fiber optic front, 30-30. Might not win but I will get my licks in, & having walked out of 2 wars figure I've got a good chance of surviving. Just my .02

[MtGun44]

I think the main difficulty with the lever gun is slow reloading and a very fragile magazine
system. Military rifles take unimaginable abuse and continue to run. A levergun is a very
nice weapon, but would not do real well in the severe abuse dept. I'd sure take it over
no gun or any handgun by a million miles.

Bill

[Leadforbrains]

Would a Levergun be my first pic out of all I own if I was going to a fight?
The answer would be NO!
Would I feel doomed if that was all I had?
My answer would still be NO!

edited to add; Any gun in a fight is better than no gun.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I like the term, Appalachian Assault Rifle. The 30/30 is a fine rifle cartridge, especially in the good old Winchester 94, I worked as a Correctional Officer for 23 1/2 years and would have been happy to carry one, especially with a peep sight. In fact, I was very happy with the Mini14, but our armourer was a nice guy, but no brains trust and didn't like them, even though they had never missed a beat in 25 years. I recommended that we re-equip with 30/30 Win 94s with an easily removed paper seal over the lever (weapon usually handed over to another officer every two hours or so). The removable magazine has some distinct advantages for this scenario. He just loved the Ruger 40S&W popgun and that is what we ended up with. Not a bad police gun, but a bit sad in a jail where it is often 75 metres to where the crooks are and your next tower is mostly 250yards or so away. Walk down the middle and take your time :)

If I was a cop, I think they would be a fine weapon in a cruiser, if my partner had a shotgun. Great combination, especially in rural areas where ranges can stretch out a little (one of those new Marlins in 308 Marlin or 338 Marlin with a robust low powered scope would be the bees knees.

As far as combat goes, the inability to cycle the lever discreetly in the prone, keep your head down or it will get shot off position spelt the demise of the lever as a combat weapon. Poor camming power when grovelling around in the mud for weeks at a time would also weigh heavily against the lever gun. I remember Dad saying that they had the Tommy guns in New Guinea and they didn't last long as they would not cycle reliably when everthing was mud coloured.

As far as rural home defence, Police and Correctional work goes, I reckon they'd be just dandy.

[Bret4207]

New guy here and need to chime in on this. I have but one firearm...a marlin 336

Most yahoos who talk about wanting an AR, AK and so forth are pretty much talking crap when they think they can handle themselves in the heat of battle and still take out the invading army they are facing. Anyone who has seen the morbid scenes of pure hell can truly say that it's no easy task to hit what your aiming at IF you don't have the training to hold that weapon steady, let alone being able to stomach the image of your target when your bullet hits and no, it's not the same as big game hunting. For those who never been in a fire fight or gun battle on the streets...no MBR is going to save your butt, nor is having as many rounds as you can carry. A lot more goes into it than what weapon you carry. Just my $.02 worth.

Same thing with the mouff breeffers monday morning QBing a police shoot. They can't understand why the cop missed with 4 of 7 shots while taking fire when they can put all 17 of theirs on paper at the 7 yard range......

[JSnover]

I own three lever actions and wouldn't hesitate to take any of them into harm's way. But if I also wouldn't feel overgunned if all I had was my FAL and a bag of mags.
If you only have one gun, learn how to shoot it.
Better yet, go buy another one and learn how to shoot both of them!

[shdwlkr]

If I am in an urban situation I like my ithaca 12 gauge and 8 loads of buckshot now if I am in the rural area I like my 30-30. If I am going to be fighting a war then I want a M14 as 147 grains will mess up your day anytime you meet it.
I don't like AR's, M4, M16 or what ever you want to call them. My choice and my life so I will take what I want to the party and if I get wasted so be it. None of us has the eternal life card and anything can ruin the best plans.
I saw way to many 16's kill trainees on the firing line to ever want one to bet my life on.
As someone else said when the bullets are coming your way it is much harder to keep your mind on shooting and hitting something and when it does most of the time it isn't hollywood folks so make sure you have the stomach for it or stay home.

[Old Ironsights]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=281787

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s131/bdaleray/stuff/444marlinlug024.jpg

Ooo Rah? :? Great for Zombie Attacks... I think...

You Machinist guys will like the tooling tech in the Link.

[shdwlkr]

Ironsights
you are sick man but I do like the mod to the lever, that sure would upset some wantabe rambo type right quick time. Isn't the cutting edge supposed to be up thou?
I would rather grow old and have to worry about 4 legged vermin and sit in my rocker but if misery comes to the door then I will have to rethink things.
Don't run good anymore so I won't be running away, don't do the coward thing to well either so it looks like I will be one of the dead ones.

[rustygray]

I am a former soldier. I lived and breathed the M16 from 84-92.

Naturally I bought one or two as it was what I was trained on. Expert thank you.

As I got older and matured ( ie fat and happy) I discovered lever guns. I grew up in Georgia, but had only ever had bolt or semi auto rifles.

I fired my first .30-30 not long ago and it was like kissing a girl for the first time back in grade school. Wow.

I liked it so much I bought another one.

I managed to find a 1973 and a 1981, both pre safety models and in great shape.

I am having one Duracoated in H&K black and will use spray on bedliner on the old beat up stock. I am adding a pic rail and red dot. ( the old eyes need help)
The other one will get restored.

I am now considering selling my SKS redneck tacticool set up ( hey it cost me $50.00) and even my 3 gun AR as I no longer try to compete.

I can as much fun plinking with reloadable .30-30 as I can with the AR.

I think a lever gun is more than adequate for survival and defense.

That and it is just plain cowboy cool!

[Uncle R.]

Ah the High Road, home of countless keyboard commandos.
:wink:
A local club held a "tactical" rifle match a few weeks ago. I think I saw some of those keyboard commandos there.
I have nothing against black rifles - in my experience a good AR is just as reliable as a mini-14, more reliable than a semi-auto sporting rifle like a 742, and more accurate than either. On that day I saw a lot of black rifles, including some pretty fancy stuff. I saw picatinnies everywhere, I saw reflex (?) sights and red dot sights and cool scopes with strange reticules and trajectory compensating internals. I heard discussions about the relative merits of op-rod conversions, I heard people bragging about their SIGs and their AUGs and some things that I flat out didn't know whatinell they were talking about.
<
I watched some of those guys <Ahem!> shoot too...
<
The targets were paper plates. Yes - standard 9 inch (?) take 'em on a picnic paper plates. The maximum distance was 50 yards. No movement - no timed reloads - FIFTY yards - from a supported position - kneeling behind a barricade with the forend (or weak hand) rested on it.
The match director was a fella I've known for years and during a scoring break I talked to him about the course he'd set up. Maybe a dozen shooters into the match and he said "So far, nobody has cleaned it."
:shock:
I wonder how many of the experts I saw that day are offering advice on "tacticool" rifles and accessories all over the internet?
A .30-30 lever? In the hands of a cool-headed shooter who knows what he's doing a M94 could be a formidable weapon - and could easily best many of those "experts" at ANY distance. Of course it doesn't fit modern combat tactics and it wouldn't be the weapon for a trained and disciplined rifle squad. I also concede that it's not really a rugged design. Dirty or corroded ammo or mud in the action or a dent in the magazine tube means trouble - but the black rifles would have problems there too.
There's an old saying - "Beware the man that shoots one gun." If that one gun is a .30-30 lever and the man can shoot - beware.
Uncle R.

[MtGun44]

You ALWAYS hit the target in your imagination and with the keyboard. OTOH, range
time can be SO unsatifying. . . . . sometimes you MISS.

You ought to see some of the new guys hit the line at 300 m for our Swiss matches. :shock:

We are coaching them up and hope to have them shooting better scores next
match.

Bill

[Slow Elk 45/70]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=281787

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s131/bdaleray/stuff/444marlinlug024.jpg

Ooo Rah? :? Great for Zombie Attacks... I think...

You Machinist guys will like the tooling tech in the Link.

Ain't no dog like an ole dog , Zombies ain't got a chance:redneck: Semper Fi

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Nice K-Bar by the way.....

[Bret4207]

:wink:
A local club held a "tactical" rifle match a few weeks ago. I think I saw some of those keyboard commandos there.
I have nothing against black rifles - in my experience a good AR is just as reliable as a mini-14, more reliable than a semi-auto sporting rifle like a 742, and more accurate than either. On that day I saw a lot of black rifles, including some pretty fancy stuff. I saw picatinnies everywhere, I saw reflex (?) sights and red dot sights and cool scopes with strange reticules and trajectory compensating internals. I heard discussions about the relative merits of op-rod conversions, I heard people bragging about their SIGs and their AUGs and some things that I flat out didn't know whatinell they were talking about.
<
I watched some of those guys <Ahem!> shoot too...
<
The targets were paper plates. Yes - standard 9 inch (?) take 'em on a picnic paper plates. The maximum distance was 50 yards. No movement - no timed reloads - FIFTY yards - from a supported position - kneeling behind a barricade with the forend (or weak hand) rested on it.
The match director was a fella I've known for years and during a scoring break I talked to him about the course he'd set up. Maybe a dozen shooters into the match and he said "So far, nobody has cleaned it."
:shock:
I wonder how many of the experts I saw that day are offering advice on "tacticool" rifles and accessories all over the internet?
A .30-30 lever? In the hands of a cool-headed shooter who knows what he's doing a M94 could be a formidable weapon - and could easily best many of those "experts" at ANY distance. Of course it doesn't fit modern combat tactics and it wouldn't be the weapon for a trained and disciplined rifle squad. I also concede that it's not really a rugged design. Dirty or corroded ammo or mud in the action or a dent in the magazine tube means trouble - but the black rifles would have problems there too.
There's an old saying - "Beware the man that shoots one gun." If that one gun is a .30-30 lever and the man can shoot - beware.
Uncle R.

I make no bones about being a great shot. I can't see anymore, I flinch these days and I'm just not as steady as I once was. Still, I KNOW HOW to shoot. That's what a lot of these mall ninja type lack. They have the gear, that's great. But they never spend the time and money learning HOW to use it. Same for all the "hunters" around that mount the biggest scope made on their bipod equipped 338 mag and after 5 years still have the original box of ammo they bought, less 9 rounds- 3 used "sighting" and 6 used missing or wounding deer at unknown ranges.

[Old Ironsights]

A few years ago I picked up an M4gery from another guy who needed some scratch.

I think I shot maybe 100 rounds through it. It was boring.

Boringly accurate, and absolutely no fun to actually shoot (or clean), much less try to reload for.. so I sold it after having it for about a year.

I like my .357 Rossi much better.

[pmeisel]

The most recent issue of Rifle has a long article by Mike Venturino about his career as a writer. He includes an acecdote about attending a class at Thunder Ranch, where Clint Smith asked him to bring a lever action to the rifle section of the course. He outshot a bunch of folks with more "tacticool" stuff. Clint told the assembled that he asked Mike to do that so "they could see what some old boy who knows how to use one of them could do, in case they ran up against one."

It's more how you shoot than what you shoot....

[shdwlkr]

pmeisel
I wouldn't want to come up against mike or a bunch of his lever shooting friends in a fight as they do know how to shoot and that is what is important first , second is being able to hit your target while you are trying not to get hit yourself, and third being shot at is not a game and it changes the way you see life in short time.
I hope in the life I have left that the worst thing I have to shoot at is a vermin trying to bug one of my animals.
Shooting another human being is just so gut wrenching that few will make it and many will do it only to forget that the fight might not be over yet and end up dead because of the over sight.
I just plain like my lever over the current combat weapons in use, it is far more to your advantage to use something that you know how it works then to have the newest thing on the market that you haven't used enough to know it well.
I have shot my levers for forty years and feel I have a reasonable understanding and used the current combat firearm for seven and just plain hated it so it would not be a good choice for me to have as a defense firearm. Heck I like a shotgun better then the current combat weapon but you have to understand I don't expect to go into combat with any of my firearms more of a defense type thing and not against a military unit combat trained as I am not sure who would win in that case. But I can tell you this armed with levers and forced to fight for your life you will do better with one then with nothing.
I have seen the spray and pray crowd shoot and I have seen a careful hunter shoot I am more worried about the careful hunter then the spray and pray crowd.
You can reload a lever as mike showed much easier then you can a mag on the new stuff. I have even seen a lever used from the prone position sideways and it did lay down some fire and the person even reloaded a few times and never was without some rounds in the firearm.

[JesterGrin_1]

A great deal of good points have been brought up. But the BIG ONE in my simple opinion is what a person is used to using and how comfortable they are with it in all situations. As one said beware of one person with only one gun. I will have to add I have fired many thousands of rounds through the so called black rifles from the old M-16/AR-15 and the old M-60. But I am more comfortable with my Marlin 1894 or 1895. If one sits and thinks about it the mind set between these two weapons is very different. The AR's and so forth people tend to fire quickly without much thought as to how accurate they are with it as they have a clip from say 20 rounds up to a full ammo can for belt fed. But when a person has something like a Marlin or Winchester they take a split second longer or so to make a careful shot and make each one count.

And even though this might not really be part of this thread I have found that since reloading and I do take some time doing so and inspecting each round each boolit and every component when loading those rounds. I tend to be allot more serious about each shot taken with those rounds and to make the most of each round that I can. Even though it is fun to go to the range and watch those people with those black rifles just blowing rounds like they are free and can barely keep them on paper. And I have noticed not many shoot anything further than 50 yards. Why would one use such a fancy rifle with expensive ammo when at 50 yards you can use a sling shot lol.

On that note I am going back out to the range to do some more seat time with my Marlin 1894SS in .44 MAG :)

[ra_balke]

Years ago, about 100 years ago, the model 95 winchester ( or was it the model 94 ) was put into combat in the phillipean war year 1898.

It was taken out of combat promptly by swearing officers, and cursing enlisted men.

Reason, I know not .

[runfiverun]

it was the 95.
those are not even in the same league with a 92 or a 94 when it comes to cycling the action.
the 95 is long ,stiff ,and bulky/balky....
but does shoot a more powerful round,even the 71-86 is more effective if you need a second shot right now.
if they had used the 94 instead ,things might have been a bit different,in the gun world now days.

[Lead Fred]

SOmewhere in the last 50-60 years we went form a country of marksman

to kids with Mattel (inside joke) black rifles and spray & pray tactics

[shdwlkr]

LeadFred
It all happened when McNamara wanted something to replace the M14 and we have gone down hill ever since. He saw that if you could wound the enemy it would take more troops to take the wounded off the field then would be left to fight. The only thing he missed was that they didn't care about their wounded. Kind of like we have seen ever since Viet Nam.
My group that went through basic and AIT in 1970 were the last ones taught the use of the M14.
Personally I have nothing against the 5.56mm round except I don't think of it as a combat round more of varmint round as that is all it really is and does an outstanding job as such. I do like my 222 better but then I am old fashioned and that is the reason I would rather have one of my lever guns in a fight then any black gun.
Now if all you are shooting is 50 yards I will take my shotguns with double 00 buckshot any day and will still be around to talk about it.
Something else that needs to be said here is that killing another human being is the most disgusting thing any person can do, but if it is a me or them that is going to die I am going to my best to make sure it isn't me. If you have to fight for your life it is far better to have something to shoot that you feel confident in no matter if it is a single shot rifle or the biggest cannon this country has ever made. If the thought of having one day to save your life or that of loved ones with a firearm just turns you off then don't ever get a ccw or ever pickup a firearm to bluff your way out of a fight because the other guy will be able to tell if you really dare fire that firearm or not and will most likely use your own weapon to kill you.
I am off my soapbox now time for the popcorn and glass of lemon aide

[Catshooter]

[QUOTE=Uncle R.;582951]:I watched some of those guys <Ahem!> shoot too...
<
The targets were paper plates. Yes - standard 9 inch (?) take 'em on a picnic paper plates. The maximum distance was 50 yards. No movement - no timed reloads - FIFTY yards - from a supported position - kneeling behind a barricade with the forend (or weak hand) rested on it.
The match director was a fella I've known for years and during a scoring break I talked to him about the course he'd set up. Maybe a dozen shooters into the match and he said "So far, nobody has cleaned it."
:shock:

Wow. I'm no wiz, I miss plenty. But last weekend we had our levergun silhouette match. I think it was my sixth or seventh.

Using my .38-55 Winchester I knocked down all ten chickens. At 50 yards. Offhand. One reload.

Sheesssshhhh. What posers.


Cat

[Uncle R.]

Wow. I'm no wiz, I miss plenty. But last weekend we had our levergun silhouette match. I think it was my sixth or seventh.

Using my .38-55 Winchester I knocked down all ten chickens. At 50 yards. Offhand. One reload.

Sheesssshhhh. What posers.


Cat

I know what you mean Cat. I'm no world-class shooter myself. Fair-to-middlin' on a good day, maybe. It ain't a "black rifle" thing - I can watch some of the NRA High Power competitors with their black rifles any time I need to get humbled out. THOSE fellas can shoot! I can watch some of those high-power shooters with their "old fashioned" bolt rifles and M1As and Garands and STILL get humbled out just as badly. I don't think it's about black plastic vs. walnut - I believe it's that magic word "tactical" that does it. Just insert the "T" word and the keyboard commando Rambo wanna-bes start to appear, with their attention firmly focused on hardware instead of skill.
:roll:

[sundog]

Uncle R, guess what? The group I hang around with what shoots high power and military bolt, we ask friends/coworkers, etc., who tell us how good they are to come and shoot with us. We never see them. They must be so much better that we are beneath them.

The way I got it figgered is if yer not out there doin' it..., you ain't doin' it. Talk is cheap.

[Jumptrap]

The Russians bought 300,00 1895 Winchester rifles in 7.62c54R, with about 293,000 of them being delivered prior to the start of the Revolution. Wouldn't we like to have a big batch of them show up here?

Hehe.....well, I own 2 Winchester 95's...both repro's...one on '06 and the other in 35 Whelen and for a HUNTING rifle, they are sufficient. But as a combat rifle......not no, but HELL NO! Those Russian 95's were discarded by the thousands as soon Ivan could find a replacement Mosin laying around. Why? The '95 action is too complicated for military use....it's gets full of mud and crud and ties up to easily and they are very slow to reload.....the cartridge is loaded with the shell going in ass first and then tipped over horizontal and then pressed down in the magazine. Such an exercise while enemies are eating your lunch isn't something to be looked forward too. I honestly don't know how the Czar and his minions got suckered into lever actioned muskets.....but it was a marketing bonanza on Winchester's part.

I am quite fond of lever rifles, cut my teeth on a '92 Winchester in 38-40. There must be 10 assorted ones around the house now and several more have passed through my hands.

Prison guards, the Lone Ranger and the county High Sheriff aside......lever rifles are not combat guns. Have you ever yanked an extractor out of a Marlin 336 due to a stubborn empty? I have. Have you ever tied up a lever because the OAL of the cartridge was a hair too long? I have. Have you ever seen a tube magazine rendered useless because it was struck hard enough to stove it in? I have.

Now, if it was all you had and it was either a levergun or your ass....yeah, I'd say you could make do well enough. And as ugly as they are......ugly is as ugly does...the SKS is 20X superior to a 30-30 lever rifle/carbine as a combat gun...because that was what it was designed for and it does that feat rather well.

[Bret4207]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

[shdwlkr]

Now if you are talking about having the choice of which firearm to have I will still take a M14 with 30 round mag and still feel that I have the best firearm. Why because hitting you with 147 grains moving at around 2800 fps is going to ruin you day even if I am off by just a little. Now that 55 or 62 grain pee shooter that the black gun guys are so happy with doesn't compare at all. I am not saying that you can't hit your target with the black rifle just they don't suit me and I played with them for 7 years and never was impressed. Played with the ak 47 which did impress me as to what it would do and how crappy the ammo could be and still fire in the weapon. We used to do a demo with them with one laying in a tray of muddy and sandy water you couldn't even find it by looking. We would reach in pull it out and open the action slush some of that muddy water through it and then reach in and pull out a mag of corroded ammo and slush it around and load up and fire the whole mag. Try that with your black guns and you will be dead.

[Jumptrap]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

Hehehe! I was just thinking...somebody ought to write a book on those backyard tacktikool bozos and their webfooted kinfolks...probably make the best seller list and then be made into box office sellout at the movies......starring Adam Sandler and Randy Quaid.......hehehe!

In your former ventures, you may have been in a Gunfight at the OK Corral....but I've so far escaped the pleasure of such business. I had a man tell me he was going to kill me once upon a time and I told him he'd best make sure I was dead if he tried it. Obviously, he didn't. So...that's the extent of my near combat escapades......I reckon a lever gun would have worked well enough in that situation.

I thought the thread started on using a lever as a combat gun. They'd just never hold up under those circumstances. I read somewhere...maybe in American Rifleman....a piece on the Russians and what few units were issued those 95 muskets. The severe cold and mud rendered them useless and cold fingers all but prevented them from reloading them.....the troops discarded them ASAP! With all the Mosins the Russians sold off....you'd think they'd dumped the 95' on the surplus market as well.....if there were many of them left. I'd bet most went into Stalin's smelters and were converted into T34 tanks.

[rhead]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

+1 I don't recall having a real good time last time I tried it, and I was a lot younger then, I think I would wait till the shootin died down and then decide if is should find a way to shoot him in the back or just keep on laying low. It ain't a game it is all about being alive when it is over.

[Sixgun Symphony]

IMO, a lever rifle is adequate for civilian needs (hunting & defense), but not for military use.

My weapon of choice is the M4 carbine w/ M68 (Aimpoint) for street fighting and the M14 rifle for open country.

[KTN]

The severe cold and mud rendered them useless and cold fingers all but prevented them from reloading them.....the troops discarded them ASAP! With all the Mosins the Russians sold off....you'd think they'd dumped the 95' on the surplus market as well.....if there were many of them left. I'd bet most went into Stalin's smelters and were converted into T34 tanks.

Russians send M95 rifles to Finland during WWI, to troops that were not fighting in war. Russians didn't like M95 because it was less practical to shoot and load in prone position or in trench/foxhole, than MN M-91.
When Finland got independence 1917, all rifles were confiscated to Finnish army.
Most of M95's delivered to Russia ended up here, and many are still used as hunting rifles. Many of them rebarreled to 8.2x53R or 9.3X53R.


Kaj

[MakeMineA10mm]

This is a GREAT thread. Lots of fun topics. Here's my $.02:

1. I'd HATE to be shot by a 30-30, wearing body armor or not...

2. Loaded with the LeveRevolution spitzers, the 30-30 is a good 250yrd + cartridge on a man-sized target.

3. In short-range/urban settings, a pistol-caliber (esp. 41Mag, 44Mag, or 45Colt) lever-gun would be a very awesome weapon, especially if you are partnered up with someone and you have fire discipline to cover each other while reloading.

4. With all the talk of John Wayne movies (Rio Bravo is tied with Man Who Shot Liberty Valance as my favorite JW movie, btw), as much as I love the Duke, I think Red Dawn is a more appropriate screen-connection to the issue at hand. Remember the kids up in the mountains? They sawed off their shotguns and used their bolt guns to kill Russians and Cubans, until they had collected enough REAL COMBAT weapons to re-equip themselves with AKs and RPGs.

5. HENCE, my last point, which I cannot say any better than BRYAN:

Had to comment on this issue. As a soldier and rifleman, I am sure that I could use any rifle effectively, but some do some jobs better. While its fun to wax nostalgic about fine leverguns, anyone carrying one onto the modern battlefield would do himself and his buddies a disservice. A good rifleman may hold his own with his levergun against a wet behind the ears recruit with an M-4, but a trained soldier will take out a lot of cowboys in a very short time. This notion that all soldiers armed with M-16's and varients "spray and pray" is not accurate. There are those times when the ability to get a lot of lead in the air, to get the other teams head down long enough for you to find better real estate, will save the day. The M-4 with a CCO or ACOG, paired with a rifleman can put sustained, accurate fire on target that a levergun can't compare to. When I went on patrol in Sadre City, I would have felt naked as a newborn babe with a levergun. For home defense, stateside duty, basic survival needs a levergun has a lot to offer, but not on the modern battlefield.

BTW, BRYAN, THANK YOU, SIR, for your service. Your work in the sandbox has made combat and casualties happen "over there" instead of over here, and I might add, at a casualty rate that is FAR better in our favor than the media would let us know...

So, that means my overall opinion is that with teamwork lever-guns can be an awesome psuedo-military weapon, but not as awesome as a good semi-auto, detachable-box-magazine, assault rifle.

I have a Sig556, several ARs, a couple AKs, an M-1A, some Garands and M-1 Carbines, and I think considering all things, the 6.8 SPC cartridge out-classes BOTH the 5.56mm and 7.62x39 (and all the others) as a modern combat cartridge. While 6.8 doesn't out-perform the 7.62 NATO, it does come close in effectiveness and is nearly identical in ballistics, while giving a larger combat load of rounds carried for same weight. (I count weapon weight as well as just the difference in cartridge weight, something that most 7.62 advocates don't do, but there is typically a significant difference in weapon size and weight between the 7.62 Nato and 6.8SPC rifles.)

[pmeisel]

An experienced carpenter can use most any hammer of the right size effectively. Amateurs can't keep up even with the best hammer.

So it is with most tools.

[softpoint]

I shoot both black rifles and leverguns. I like both. One of my favorite AR rifles is a 7.62X 39. It is accurate, fast. AR style rifles fit me well for offhand shooting . I also like my leverguns. They are neither as fast or quite as accurate as my black rifles.I shoot the leverguns more, thoughI wouldn't use one as a combat arm if one of my clip fed AR's was available. The 30/30 would certainly be potent enough.:grin:

[Old Ironsights]

...Wow. I'm no wiz, I miss plenty. But last weekend we had our levergun silhouette match. I think it was my sixth or seventh.

Using my .38-55 Winchester I knocked down all ten chickens. At 50 yards. Offhand. One reload.

Sheesssshhhh. What posers.

Cat
I generally get out about once a month to shoot Sillouhette... with my M92 .357 - fixed iron sights, offhand, 180gr @ 1800.

I have a little trouble with the 175m Turkeys, and am about 80% on the 50m chickens, but pretty regularly run the 100m pigs & 200m rams.

But then, the Rossi IS a rifle zeroed at 100 and not a bird gun... ;)

[handyrandyrc]

I love my 30-30.

But watching this video made me re-think necessity of having a semi-auto for combat. It's a MUST.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=121_1246978752

Look at how they were able to keep sustained fire on the enemy while being able to move in. No way a guy could have made it out as well with a levergun in that situation.

[StarMetal]

The progression of military firearms development had evolved towards improvement. Look how black powder arms progressed. Smooth bore to rifled bores, from glowing wick, to matchbox, to flintlock, to percussion cap, and finally to contained cartridge. If the Revolutionary and Civil war were fought with one side having M 16's (and being trained how to use them) what would have the outcome been? Would it have been different? Would the side that had the M16's killed more of their enemy? The progression of firearms had always been towards more fire power, more accuracy. To try to take an 1800's designed lever action rifle and bring it up to todays combat level is nuts.

Joe

[rhead]

The progression of military firearms development had evolved towards improvement. Look how black powder arms progressed. Smooth bore to rifled bores, from glowing wick, to matchbox, to flintlock, to percussion cap, and finally to contained cartridge. If the Revolutionary and Civil war were fought with one side having M 16's (and being trained how to use them) what would have the outcome been? Would it have been different? Would the side that had the M16's killed more of their enemy? The progression of firearms had always been towards more fire power, more accuracy. To try to take an 1800's designed lever action rifle and bring it up to todays combat level is nuts.

Joe

Like in Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove?

[Bret4207]

Well, once again we're drifting off the original question. Does the 30-30 in a levergun have any utility in a modern combat scenario. The idea was if all you have is a 30-30 lever are you instant dead meat? Of course not. Is it the perfect battle weapon for organized combat operations? Of course not. If TSHTF and you and your family are armed with them and the MZB (Mutant Zombie Bikers) are armed with AR's, AK's, etc are you dead meat? Not by a long shot. In a Red Dawn scenario, guerrilla warfare, you'd still have a decent chance given a little forethought and luck./ No, we aren't talking about arming the USMC with Marlins and Winchesters and sending them into battle. But John Galt.....he might do all right.

[RU shooter]

Bret makes some points ,First we must decide the meaning of the word "combat" which I'm sure is different for many of us here with varried backgrounds. To me combat is very different than a civilian armed encounter even if its against multiple badguys. In which case I wouldnt feel I was doomed having only a leveraction rifle or carbine. If I knew waking up in the morning I was going to be in a shooting situation It wouldnt be my first choice though! But that rarely happens! most civial encounters are not more than a few shots anyways so the high capacity needs are kinda a moot point in reality .I think a good tactical plan is better than more bullets before a reload or higher MV.

[Catshooter]

I have a little trouble with the 175m Turkeys, and am about 80% on the 50m chickens, but pretty regularly run the 100m pigs & 200m rams.

)

Don't them Turkeys just suck?

I'm sure having fun shootin' this match though. What a ball.

But to get back on topic a bit, while I certainly wouldn't want to take on a squad of vets armed with M4s with my levers, breaking into my house could be a bad idea.

I think it was Cooper who said that a handful of men who knew how to work together, had good bolt actions and knew the terrain would be a terrible problem for a company.


Cat

[BuckBall]

I'd rather have a .30-30 over a .223 any day. Being in former combat and having seen what a .223 can do, really I always hoped to carry something bigger. The .30-30 does have more knock down power than the little .22 cal and if you compare a lever to an AR, as I did with a career Marine friend, the lever was more capable. Of course there are pros and cons to each, however, I was able to hit my target more accurately than the AR, loading time was quicker too. If you think about the play by play actions of loading a magazine into an AR, you will see that moving hand to pouch, opening pouch, pulling mag out, loading mag, racking chamber and aiming takes time, and I can load 6 rounds and be on target way before my friend. Then there are the sites on a Marlin or Winny which are lower than that of the AR and therefore you gain quicker on target acquisition. On top of this, the wound profiles from a 62 grain bullet compared to a 150 grain or 170 grain shows more trauma than what the 62 can deliver.

Would I feel under gunned with just a lever? Absolutely not. Of course if that is all you have like I do, then you learn to use that weapon in all manners and positions. If I had a choice, I'd take my old L1A1 as I used in the Operation Grandby (U.S. First Gulf War), but since I live in the states, I will use what I currently own, Marlin 336 in .30-30.

[Lead Fred]

Mt Browning said and 1936, and there is a plaque in his museum stating:

"During the entire evolution of firearms, no one has ever made a better one
Only a faster one"

The military has been going the wrong direction since the M1/M1A.

Having more lighter ammo and spraying and praying isn't the answer, only convenience.

I own two levers, both in 30-30, and I would not use them in combat.

The M1 is the best for me. Id rather be able to kill 8 times, than dump 30 and hit and or wound 5-6 times.

I own no 22 cal. Everything is 7.62 (and one 45-70)

The government is so afraid of martial firearms, they are going out of their way to
outlaw everything but hunting firearms.

Even the levergun is now a assault rifle. Check the 2008 firearms ban list that didn't go though.

As history does repeat itself. The first revolution was government troops against civilians with hunting rifles. You know how that came out.

The libcommies are so sure by outlawing all the black guns, battle rifles, anything that holds more than 5 rounds. so Their take over will be effortless.

What they will find is a nation of sharpshooters

and you know how the second revolution will end.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If all I could get my hands on was a baseball bat or a pick handle, that would be what I would use. If I could get my hands on a lever 30/30 I would use that, but while I was carrying these weapons, I would be constantly on the lookout for a combat gun. If the levers were able to cut the mustard in combat, combat troops would have used them in numbers rather that in dribs and drabs.

I was pre black stick, but I would feel ok with my Aussie made SLR (Fn FAL).

[Multigunner]

Back in the days when there were no high velocity repeaters other than the occasional long heavy European bolt action 11mm rifles, the .30-30 was a choice of professional manhunters like the Texas Rangers who bought their own rifles.
It was fast when needed, accurate enough, a powerful enough to drop a man quick time. Effective range was considered to be 300 yards for combat in the open.

The Russian Model 95 rifles did have a stripper clip, if it worked or not I couldn't say. Obviously the leverguns aren't up to months in the mud of trenches.

WW2 saw the 95 in the hands of Russian Partizans, given to them because they used the standard ammo, but were a primary martial arm anymore.

About ten or twelve years ago a documentary on russian Mob arms dealers included a survelance tape showing black market dealers delivering a truck full of rifles out in the boonies. I was delighted to see the truck was half full of Winchester Model 1895 Leveractions, lifted from some long forgotten poorly guarded arms depot I supose.
Russian Black market dealers scour the countryside for forgotten buried WW2 arms caches, much of what they recover is rusted out junk, but occasionally they hit the jackpot.

The Leveraction is a decent Urban combat weapon, they were a common police issue in some states. A rack of Thurty Thurtys might sit untouched for fifty years yet each rifle could be counted on should need arise.

As for Bolt action rifles, my Enfield is as quick to operate as a lever action, but few other BA are as fast to handle, so in CQB the leveraction has a slight edge.

The pistol caliber leveractions are a bit faster to operate, and hold a lot more rounds for the length.

[eka]

I think the main difficulty with the lever gun is slow reloading and a very fragile magazine
system. Military rifles take unimaginable abuse and continue to run. A levergun is a very
nice weapon, but would not do real well in the severe abuse dept. I'd sure take it over
no gun or any handgun by a million miles.

Right on the money. In modern combat or any combat weapons take a lot of abuse. One dent to the mag tube and you have a real problem with the lever action.

Keith

[WILCO]

I think whatever firearm you own is the one you go into combat with WSHTF.
Dead is dead and it don't matter which caliber or cartridge did it..........

[Multigunner]

Thinking on the reloading question, A military bolt action if stripper clips are not available, is generally slower and not as easy to load compared to a Lever Action with King loading gate.
With clips I can load five rounds in a BA as fast as two rounds in a Winchester, but without a clip you could load five in a Winchester to three in a BA.
The Leveraction can be topped up with a round in the chamber, but topping up a BA requires opening the chamber, perhaps loosing a round if not careful, then single loading or loading only part of a clip, very clumsey.

Turks using Winchester 1866 Muskets defeated a far larger Russian force at Sevastapol. Each gunpit had one shooter three rifles and kids to reload from buckets of .44 Henry flat while the shooter was firing. Despite the short effective range of the rimfire 44 used by the Yellow Boy 66 they stacked the Russian infantry like cordwood.


I've never seen a Winchester Rifle with a badly dented tube, but I have seen a number of pump shotguns with dented tubes, yet the pump shotgun is a mainstay of CQB and jungle fighting.

The Winchester buttstock would not be a good choice for beating down doors, but I've seen old military BA stocks split and broken at the wrist from the same abuse.

The Leveraction isn't particularly ammo sensitive, it will operate with the dirtiest propellants and lead slugs. I can't see most modern Autoloaders operating for long with homemade BP or Ammonpulver and WW lead slugs.

While the Winchester 95 wasn't Russian Peasant Soldier proof, and very few weapons were,it served very well with British Officers who bought them in .303, with a modicum of cleaning and upkeep.
The Leveractions in .44-40 and .32-20 were longtime favorites in the jungles of south America, so they can take a fair amount of abuse.

[bary]

Well, once again we're drifting off the original question. Does the 30-30 in a levergun have any utility in a modern combat scenario. The idea was if all you have is a 30-30 lever are you instant dead meat? Of course not. Is it the perfect battle weapon for organized combat operations? Of course not. If TSHTF and you and your family are armed with them and the MZB (Mutant Zombie Bikers) are armed with AR's, AK's, etc are you dead meat? Not by a long shot. In a Red Dawn scenario, guerrilla warfare, you'd still have a decent chance given a little forethought and luck./ No, we aren't talking about arming the USMC with Marlins and Winchesters and sending them into battle. But John Galt.....he might do all right.
Galt wouldn't have needed any kind of rifle. Dagny and Francisco were the main shooters in Atlas. :)

Given the defenses of Mulligan's Valley, would the strikers even had needed firearms for defense?

[Four Fingers of Death]

As to using leverguns in battle, there is a Winchester 1892 in the Infantry Museum at Singleton (inside the School of Infantry). It is 32/20 and was the personal rifle of a Colonel who was leading a battalion at Gallopoli. It was borrowed every night by the snipers and took a deadly toll of Turks. The sharpshooters liked it because it had a very low muzzle blast and flash and was realitively quiet. I never thought to ask if it was carried in the rest of the fighting through Europe.

I have always fancied a levergun in 9mm Parrebellum. 18-20" Bbl and a very low powered scope. With the extra velocity the longer Bbl would provide it would be an effective weapon in a cool pair of hands. Good for scrounging ammo as well. The mag would hold a few as well.

[Three44s]

The North Hollywood Bank robbers of a few years ago ....... would have melted like BUTTER had one of those officers seen fit to equip themself with a Thudy Thudy ........!

Three 44s

[jh45gun]

One thing about a good lever gun it would take away the spray and pray mentality and folks would actually aim and hit something.

[Gray Fox]

Three44s: I have made the same comment many times since that shootout. As a teen in AZ in the early 60s I recall that almost every cop had a Winchester .44-40 or .30-30 in the car that he knew how to use in such a situation. I know that a fat .44 slug in an unarmored leg would have brought those guys down right quick.

Here in the Southeast where I currently reside, a scoped .30-30 with a pet load has the range to put down most of the four- or two-legged varmits one might encounter. Assuming that unless taken by surprise one is shooting from cover, how hard would it be to keep poking rounds into the mag tube. And finally, how many of us are spray and pray types anyway? Alvin York got his bag limit with a bolt gun and issue sights.

[Three44s]

Gray Fox,

Not only is the advantage for accuracy ........ I like head shots ............ greater BUT ........

......... the energy advantage for bustin' a vest is much more advantageous ...... with a substantial rifle.

I don't know where the 30/30 sits on that one ...... but it sure is MORE than enough without a vest.

Three 44s

[NickSS]

A few years ago I was up in Alaska salmon fishing. I ran into an Alaskan Indian in a convenience store/gun shop who was trying to sell a really beat up 30-30 94 winchester. The store owner was offering him a really low price and he would not sell it. I followed him outside and bought it for $50 (the dealer only offered $25). It had a broken loading gate and a beatup stock and most of the blue was warn off but the bore looked OK and the action appeared to be tight and all there except the loading port. This rifle was made in 1925 per the serial number. Well I took it home, got new wood and I had my brothers brother in law reblue it and repair the loading gate. This rifle shoots really good and I would not hesitate to use it to defend myself and family with it. As for fire power, it has plenty and is easy to reload as you go. A buddy of mine was a Marine scout sniper in Nam and he carried a model 70 with an 8 power Unertal scope for a year. He also shot up quite a few Viet Cong with it. It had to be loaded one round at a time but he did not consider himself under gunned at all.

[Bret4207]

Galt wouldn't have needed any kind of rifle. Dagny and Francisco were the main shooters in Atlas. :)

Given the defenses of Mulligan's Valley, would the strikers even had needed firearms for defense?

Did Dagny shoot anyone? I can't recall. I'm sure they would have defended the valley. Of course the guns would be made from Reardon metal and would have been capable of astounding velocity at unheard of pressures while weighing practically nothing.

A good book, not a great one, but a good one. She could have gotten the point across in 400-500 less pages. And I felt a little uncomfortable with some of the dialogue between Fransisco and Hank. Ain;t no way ol' Hank would have let Dag go that easy, no way.

[waksupi]

Did Dagny shoot anyone? I can't recall. I'm sure they would have defended the valley. Of course the guns would be made from Reardon metal and would have been capable of astounding velocity at unheard of pressures while weighing practically nothing.

A good book, not a great one, but a good one. She could have gotten the point across in 400-500 less pages. And I felt a little uncomfortable with some of the dialogue between Fransisco and Hank. Ain;t no way ol' Hank would have let Dag go that easy, no way.


I agree the book could have been cut by several hundred pages quite easily. Cliff Notes would have sufficed to convey the message.

[mike in co]

One thing about a good lever gun it would take away the spray and pray mentality and folks would actually aim and hit something.

try standing up. aiming in 'nam and see what it would get you. even movint your body high enough to aim...a body bag.

sorry there are lots of people making statements that have no idea of the various requirements of a various battle fields.
the jungles and rice paddies
long range dessert shooting
house to house in the current stuff


stuff chaanges, one must change with it.


mike in co

[mike in co]

. A buddy of mine was a Marine scout sniper in Nam and he carried a model 70 with an 8 power Unertal scope for a year. He also shot up quite a few Viet Cong with it. It had to be loaded one round at a time but he did not consider himself under gunned at all.

again a statement out of context... a sniper is not a soldier in a fire fight in a battle field....he is a sniper...silent death..long distance one shot one kill...but not a soldier in fire fight in house to house fighting in our current situtiation.
the rifle is out of place, the comment is out of place.

my nephew uses the current seal sniper rifle accuracy international with a high power variable scope....like 8 to 25 or something like that...but it is not a patrol rifle.

mike in co

[softpoint]

AR 15 for me. I know all the perceived shortcomings, I'll still take my chances. High Capacity, Accurate, I can carry a lot of ammo, and the "too small a cartridge" doesn't really hold much water, IMHO, because I'm going to either use 65gr. Sierra Gamekings or 60 grain Nosler partitions. In a civilian defence situation I don't have to use FMJ.
Having said that, in an outdoor defensive situation against perps with handguns and knives, a good 30/30 would do just fine. As would a 12 Guage in some circumstances. Just my opinion.....:coffee:
Tactics being at least as important as weapon used.....

[jh45gun]

try standing up. aiming in 'nam and see what it would get you. even movint your body high enough to aim...a body bag.

sorry there are lots of people making statements that have no idea of the various requirements of a various battle fields.
the jungles and rice paddies
long range dessert shooting
house to house in the current stuff


stuff chaanges, one must change with it.


mike in co

So who said you have to stand up ever consider using cover? There is a reason folks learn to shoot standing, Kneeling, Sitting and Prone!!!

[mike in co]

So who said you have to stand up ever consider using cover? There is a reason folks learn to shoot standing, Kneeling, Sitting and Prone!!!


lol....

you were never in 'nam( i wan't either...but it was during my time...i have friends..or had friends who were there).leafy green stuff does not stop bullets. rice paddies do not support a sitting position.

go look at film from fire fights in nam.......

if you think the current cmp/dcm match format has anything to do with current fighting enviroments you are off your rocker....except for prone.
sitting takes to long to get into and out of..you are a target. standing...you are a target. stand next to a wall for suport and cove fine. kneeling is the most unstable platform i have ever shot from. if you have enough cover to go kneeling ...use the cover and shoot prone from it.

i have said it more than once....any open field postion that is not prone is a target.


i use to shoot cmp/dcm matches...my biggest complaint is that it is not relevant to today fighting enviroment.( the guns nor the positions.....the ammo is single fed, and too long for the mag in the prone long range)
is it better than nothing yes it is. but it aint what is being taught before troops deploy.

mike in co

[jh45gun]

Well Mike I doubt I will ever get into a fire fight but if I ever I suspect it will be either in a city with buildings or using a vehicle for cover. For what it is worth I have had a SKS in the past and A Maddi AK and I prefer my lever gun over both of them. More accurate and I like the 30/30 heavier bullet even using cast.

[montana_charlie]

One thing about a good lever gun it would take away the spray and pray mentality and folks would actually aim and hit something.
try standing up. aiming in 'nam and see what it would get you. even movint your body high enough to aim...a body bag.
So who said you have to stand up ever consider using cover? There is a reason folks learn to shoot standing, Kneeling, Sitting and Prone!!!
lol....

you were never in 'nam( i wan't either...but it was during my time...i have friends..or had friends who were there).leafy green stuff does not stop bullets. rice paddies do not support a sitting position.

go look at film from fire fights in nam.......
Well, I was there...and aimed most of my shots. I very seldom fired bursts, and they were very short.

I was not wading through the jungle. I was in a 'fixed location' and supposed to be 'hunkered down' behind various forms of cover. But you can't see sh!t when you're hunkered down, and if you can't see 'em...you can't shoot 'em.

Besides...being a soldier means moving forward while taking the risk that you may be hit.
If the prone position was the way to fight a war, we would go back to the trenches of WW I.

Another thing, Mike...
When you are prone, you can see the least of the battlefield, and you have the hardest time reacting to fast changing events.
And...the worst of it is that you are 'motionless'.

If you can't maneuver, somebody will pick you off...even in a fixed location with various forms of cover.

CM

[bruce drake]

Standing, leaning against a wall, leaning over my HMMWV, Kneeling beside a trash pile.

Wherever I needed to shoot and see the target/Iraqi.

AR15, Levergun doesn't matter as long as it can put a bullet into the target with accuracy.

Oh, and I own two 1894s in 30-30 and 32 Win Spl in addition to multiple bolts and an AR and a Garand. Love everyone of them.

Bruce

[mike in co]

Well Mike I doubt I will ever get into a fire fight but if I ever I suspect it will be either in a city with buildings or using a vehicle for cover. For what it is worth I have had a SKS in the past and A Maddi AK and I prefer my lever gun over both of them. More accurate and I like the 30/30 heavier bullet even using cast.


sir,
we are all priveledged to make our own choices. my opinon of your choice is that you will just be a target.....just my opinon.
one guy with a semi auto...ak or ar or an stg or pick one, will pin your butt down, while a buddy flanks and shoots you. while you are adding a second round up the tube, i have added a 30 or more round mag.

a lever gun requires you to move the gun in most cases to cycle, taking you and the gun off target. .............
yep a heavier bullet, yep more knock down than a 223...but....there are lots of 308 based ar's also.
you are taking a very narrow look at a situtation that has many variables. if your choice is so wise..why has no military adopted the lever gun for modern fighting.....???( plian and simple they would be out gunned by the other guy).
i own two lever guns they are fun...but they are not go to war guns.....

mike in co

[mike in co]

Well, I was there...and aimed most of my shots. I very seldom fired bursts, and they were very short.

I was not wading through the jungle. I was in a 'fixed location' and supposed to be 'hunkered down' behind various forms of cover. But you can't see sh!t when you're hunkered down, and if you can't see 'em...you can't shoot 'em.

Besides...being a soldier means moving forward while taking the risk that you may be hit.
If the prone position was the way to fight a war, we would go back to the trenches of WW I.

Another thing, Mike...
When you are prone, you can see the least of the battlefield, and you have the hardest time reacting to fast changing events.
And...the worst of it is that you are 'motionless'.

If you can't maneuver, somebody will pick you off...even in a fixed location with various forms of cover.

CM

charlie,
glad you made it back.
can we agree that:
1)standing and shooting in an open field(rice paddy), makes you a big target?;
2)sitting in a rice paddy makes you a smaller target, but exposed longer as the time in and out of the position is long ?;
3) going prone in a rice paddy minimizes your exposure and provides the most stable firing platform ?....the edge of a rice paddy being much better.
while there was lots of shooting....it was not all from fixed positions.....and some of those fixed positions where just trenches and and such....
thanks
mike in co

[jh45gun]

if your choice is so wise..why has no military adopted the lever gun for modern fighting.....???

Well the Russians used the Model 95 and were happy with them. I think the only reason the US military did not adopt them was they had so many muskets left over from the civil war that they converted to trapdoors. Later bolt guns which is what most armies were using as Mauser damn near supplied the world with them. You don't have to move a lever gun any more than a bolt gun and they were standard issue for years. I am not knocking semi autos at all but I cannot afford an AR and the SKS and AK guns I just do not care for. Besides most gun fights are fought with what you have, not what you want or should have.

[mike in co]

Well the Russians used the Model 95 and were happy with them. I think the only reason the US military did not adopt them was they had so many muskets left over from the civil war that they converted to trapdoors. Later bolt guns which is what most armies were using as Mauser damn near supplied the world with them. You don't have to move a lever gun any more than a bolt gun and they were standard issue for years. I am not knocking semi autos at all but I cannot afford an AR and the SKS and AK guns I just do not care for. Besides most gun fights are fought with what you have, not what you want or should have.

move into the 20th century...the rest of us have moved into the 21st.....

live in the past and probably die in the past.......
( a gun is better than no go, but the subject of this thread is covered in the above statement)

one must be flexible in rifle choice for a given combat situtation. the afgan tribes have done very well at kicking russian butt with 100 yr old rifles. the better marksmanship with a longer reaching 7.62x53r round kicked well against the 7.62x39 ak....................but when the HIND gunship showed up it was duck and cover. between the terrain, the tribes, the mn rifles(and some us suppiled rockets) the russians left in defeat.....but neither side were using lever guns.


mike in co

[mike in co]

Standing, leaning against a wall, leaning over my HMMWV, Kneeling beside a trash pile.

Wherever I needed to shoot and see the target/Iraqi.

AR15, Levergun doesn't matter as long as it can put a bullet into the target with accuracy.

Oh, and I own two 1894s in 30-30 and 32 Win Spl in addition to multiple bolts and an AR and a Garand. Love everyone of them.

Bruce


bruce...in town fire fight, 10 bad guys with ak's and a mn sniper, and you would pick a lever gun with 10 rounds and a two minute reload time over an m16 ???(9 on your 10 man team get what you pick plus one bolt sniper)...your com is out you get no outside support.

mike in co

[JSnover]

I don't think anybody ever said the Lever is better for combat, just that it can be effective if used properly. Sorta like anything else.

[runfiverun]

the 1895 would be the very last choice i would make for a levergun even for hunting.
i remember after getting mine thinking, they used these in combat? no way!
a 92 i could envision with some training,or defense or even shtf.
but if i gotta grab and go it's gonna be a semi, either the sks or the m-14.

[dualsport]

The Russians beat the Germans with MNs, true. They also died by the millions doing it. There's a proven fighting gun available, for about an average week's pay, the AR. Good enough for the Marines, good enough for me. I'll keep my levers for less critical uses.

[JSnover]

My FN FAL is the go-to gun if my little corner of the world falls apart. But if I outlive my supply of 7.62 NATO, the lever action is my second string.

[mike in co]

I don't think anybody ever said the Lever is better for combat, just that it can be effective if used properly. Sorta like anything else.


plain and simple...:no

in modern warfare it is too slow to reload.........
nice bullet weight.
resonable velocity
but a lever against a semi auto...come on.........

try shooting a lever prone..............

compare changing mags in a sks even, to feeding a lever.


does the gun shoot yes, is it accurate enough for the job...only short range.

is it out of place in a modern armed fight...yes.

the title says "modern combat"....not home defense, not last ditich, not i'm in my truck and run apon a bank robber..........

keep your replies in the context of the question......


mike in co

[fishhawk]

it all boils down to what ever your useing be it a lever gun or a semi or even a single shot it's still better than a rock and club! steve k

[Old Ironsights]

The Russians beat the Germans with MNs, true. They also died by the millions doing it. There's a proven fighting gun available, for about an average week's pay, the AR. Good enough for the Marines, good enough for me. I'll keep my levers for less critical uses.
Who pays you?

An average weeks pay my tchucus... Maybe for an old broken A2.

Most people's "average weeks pay" = SKS, not AR.

That said, I'm really into the idea of "EBR-ing" a .308 Rem 760 or 7600... maybe as a bullpup.

No gas system to crud up, still takes box mags, and doesn't have the "prone lever leap" problem.

[mike in co]

it all boils down to what ever your useing be it a lever gun or a semi or even a single shot it's still better than a rock and club! steve k

yes but that was not the quesstion, was it..?????

[jh45gun]

OK Mike if it makes you happy I will use my Model 97 Winchester that is made into a riot gun and DON"T even think of telling me they are not effective for combat, Modern or Otherwise.

[JSnover]

the title says "modern combat"....not home defense, not last ditich, not i'm in my truck and run apon a bank robber..........

keep your replies in the context of the question......


mike in co

Ok, define 'modern combat.' The question was not "If your unit gets activated would you rather be issued an M4 or an M94?" Do we have the luxury of assuming home defense, last ditch or random criminal violence won't happen? I don't think the OP suggested issuing leverguns to the troops. The question was whether or not the 30-30 was a valid cartridge for combat. But it was posted here on the Levergun forum so we focused more on the action type.

[jh45gun]

Ok, define 'modern combat.' The question was not "If your unit gets activated would you rather be issued an M4 or an M94?" Do we have the luxury of assuming home defense, last ditch or random criminal violence won't happen? I don't think the OP suggested issuing leverguns to the troops. The question was whether or not the 30-30 was a valid cartridge for combat. But it was posted here on the Levergun forum so we focused more on the action type.


Exactly

[GabbyM]

I'd bet if one in ten of the dissidents in Iran had a 30-30 we'd see a regime change.
But then Brown Bess muskets would probably work too. Burning tires and throwing rocks just don't get it done.

I'm pretty sure most modern combat doesn't look all that much like a paint ball game.

[dualsport]

Old Ironsights-point taken. It would depend a lot on pay scale. Out here a jorneyman electrician can and do make up to $50 hr. A convenience store clerk will make a lot less. At any rate, decent quality plain jane ars are within reach of any working person who is motivated enough. I'm not suggesting they're bargains or cheap to buy, just do-able for someone who really wants one. If I was on my way to a firefight and I had a choice between a well maintained AR with plenty of ammo or a lever under the same circunstances it'd be a no brainer. I would be very happy to see my adversary show up with a lever action.

[bary]

Did Dagny shoot anyone? I can't recall. I'm sure they would have defended the valley. Of course the guns would be made from Reardon metal and would have been capable of astounding velocity at unheard of pressures while weighing practically nothing.

A good book, not a great one, but a good one. She could have gotten the point across in 400-500 less pages. And I felt a little uncomfortable with some of the dialogue between Fransisco and Hank. Ain;t no way ol' Hank would have let Dag go that easy, no way.


P.1148..."Calmy and impersonally, she, who would have hesitated to fire at an animal, pulled the trigger and fired straight at the heart of a man who had wanted to exist without the responsibility of consiousness."

[mike in co]

Ok, define 'modern combat.' The question was not "If your unit gets activated would you rather be issued an M4 or an M94?" Do we have the luxury of assuming home defense, last ditch or random criminal violence won't happen? I don't think the OP suggested issuing leverguns to the troops. The question was whether or not the 30-30 was a valid cartridge for combat. But it was posted here on the Levergun forum so we focused more on the action type.

duh...
It says" modern combat"
it does not say home defense, it does not say last ditch shtf,
it does not say anything about anyone's unit getting called up.
id does say
"MODERN COMBAT"
we, the us of a, are currently envolved in "COMBAT" in two locations...these would be considered "MODERN COMBAT"

GO READ MY REPLIES TO THE USE OF A LEVERGUN in modern combat.

what is it , you cannot read, or you just like seeing your words in print ?
(ps...it says 30-30....but this is the LEVERGUN forum......so yes we be talking about a 30-30 levergun for modern combat)

ohhh its two am...happy new year!

mike in co

[jh45gun]

Old Ironsights-point taken. It would depend a lot on pay scale. Out here a jorneyman electrician can and do make up to $50 hr. A convenience store clerk will make a lot less. At any rate, decent quality plain jane ars are within reach of any working person who is motivated enough. I'm not suggesting they're bargains or cheap to buy, just do-able for someone who really wants one. If I was on my way to a firefight and I had a choice between a well maintained AR with plenty of ammo or a lever under the same circunstances it'd be a no brainer. I would be very happy to see my adversary show up with a lever action.

OK take some one that is on SS average SS check for most is around a thousand bucks some a bit more some a bit less. So average income for the year is 12 thousand dollars. Most ARs I have seen are 800 bucks on up and that's with out ammo and extra mags. (Of course you need extra mags and lots of ammo to feed this gun. So if your going to equip your self say your AR averages a thousand bucks which is not a over estimated price. Say an average of ten of them mags at ten bucks a throw that's a hundred bucks plus shipping and maybe tax. 223 ammo 1,000 rounds [+$378.00] (just looked up one place for a price and they were out of stock) OK you want to be prepared as you bought a thousand dollar rifle to fight a battle you may never fight so you want 2000 rounds at least that is almost 800 bucks add the mags and your getting awfull close to a thousand dollars again if you add shipping cost ect. So that is two months pay out of your meager income and budget. Doable Hell No. Now one more thing you just bought that rifle and you want some ammo good luck a lot of places are out of stock because so does every one else.


Thirty Thirty lever gun probably 250 used or cheaper if you look hard enough. 30/30 brass is cheap and available since this IS A CASTING site most all of you are already casting and reloading. Like the 12 guage the ammo for 30/30 would be a easier to find ammo if you need to scrounge in this country. No it may not be perfect but it is probably all ready on hand and affordable and like the guy said it is a hell of a lot better than a ROCK.

[JSnover]

duh...
It says" modern combat"
it does not say home defense, it does not say last ditch shtf,
it does not say anything about anyone's unit getting called up.
id does say
"MODERN COMBAT"
we, the us of a, are currently envolved in "COMBAT" in two locations...these would be considered "MODERN COMBAT"

GO READ MY REPLIES TO THE USE OF A LEVERGUN in modern combat.

what is it , you cannot read, or you just like seeing your words in print ?
(ps...it says 30-30....but this is the LEVERGUN forum......so yes we be talking about a 30-30 levergun for modern combat)

ohhh its two am...happy new year!

mike in co

Sure I can read. Heck, I can write, tie my own shoes, I can do all kinds of neat tricks. Seeing my own words in print really isn't much of a thrill; some folks just seem to need more of them than others. Nothin' personal, bro. Just an observation.
Modern Combat is actually too broad a term in my opinion but if you need to narrow the focus to lever actions for use by soldiers in a tactical environment, go ahead. However, the question on both forums was about the cartridge. Other than limited range the .30-30 is has it over the .223 any day of the week. All other things being equal (skills, training, tactics and ballistics) as a battlefield weapon the lever action is outclassed against more modern designs but should someone in the neighborhood offer me some "modern combat" my Marlin 1894 or my Winchester 94 will do the job.

[pmeisel]

Mike in co...

Mike Venturino had a very interesting piece awhile back, in Rifle I believe, where he describes taking a 38/55 lever action to a tactical rifle class. While he didn't claim to embarass the folks with tactical rifles, it was apparent to me from the article that he did.

It's the carpenter more than the hammer.

[mike in co]

Mike in co...

Mike Venturino had a very interesting piece awhile back, in Rifle I believe, where he describes taking a 38/55 lever action to a tactical rifle class. While he didn't claim to embarass the folks with tactical rifles, it was apparent to me from the article that he did.

It's the carpenter more than the hammer.

good point, but no one is shooting back in a class..and as i have said prone with a levergun is just plain all target.

i'll go away and leave the "experts" to decide on which rilfe they are going to use the 30-30 in for modern combat.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

mike in co,

You can lever a lever action in the prone position of your turn it too the side.

Joe

[jh45gun]

Don't bother guys I have the feeling Mike is always right and never wrong. LOL

[sundog]

I'm not sure I've posted in this thread yet. I think not, but I'm not going back to look.

I have a few thoughts concerning the 30-30 cartridge for use as a modern combat round.

First, it was not designed as such. Modern combat rounds should be rimless for magazines and self loading actions. That's just the way things are. They just feed and function 'mo betta'.

Next, most of the rifles and carbines ever designed to use the 30-30 do not aptly meet the requirements for modern combat. Compare the standard M94 to an AR or an AK, of which the latter are highly successful battle 'rifles'. It makes little difference if you like them. They are designed for modern combat and function in that role quite well.

Now, IF the 30-30 had a rimless cousin and a rifle designed for modern combat, my question would be, is it better than what we have? In my opinion, probably not.

Before all y'all (dat's Okie fer you'ens) what love the 30-30 get on my case, I'll offer this. The 30-30, and it's bigger and better brother 32 Win Spl, are outstanding cartridges. I shoot'em both, but they are not my 'go to' for a combat scenario. If 30-30 is all I had, I'd make it work. To me, the key to this whole discussion has been the word "modern". If not for that, we could all be enjoying the .303 British also, which was developed more that a hunert years ago.

Or am I missing something?

[StarMetal]

I'm not sure I've posted in this thread yet. I think not, but I'm not going back to look.

I have a few thoughts concerning the 30-30 cartridge for use as a modern combat round.

First, it was not designed as such. Modern combat rounds should be rimless for magazines and self loading actions. That's just the way things are. They just feed and function 'mo betta'.

Next, most of the rifles and carbines ever designed to use the 30-30 do not aptly meet the requirements for modern combat. Compare the standard M94 to an AR or an AK, of which the latter are highly successful battle 'rifles'. It makes little difference if you like them. They are designed for modern combat and function in that role quite well.

Now, IF the 30-30 had a rimless cousin and a rifle designed for modern combat, my question would be, is it better than what we have? In my opinion, probably not.

Before all y'all (dat's Okie fer you'ens) (and you'ens is nothern for yuse guys)what love the 30-30 get on my case, I'll offer this. The 30-30, and it's bigger and better brother 32 Win Spl, are outstanding cartridges. I shoot'em both, but they are not my 'go to' for a combat scenario. If 30-30 is all I had, I'd make it work. To me, the key to this whole discussion has been the word "modern". If not for that, we could all be enjoying the .303 British also, which was developed more that a hunert years ago.

Or am I missing something?

How about the 30 Remington, Corky? That's what the 6.8 Remington was designed off of.

I'm not saying that either are better then we have currently but they aren't shabby either.

Joe

[sundog]

Joe, see, there ya go. It's all figgered out now.

Personally, I've always felt 'under-gunned' with the 5.56 for stuff bigger than a p-dog.

[felix]

In a combat situation, you need to figure your helpers. More than likely they will be 30-30 carrying folks, and of the 30-06 class, with a few 243s and 270s thrown in. If you are the "local" gun nut, then you'd best take care of them. Anyone who goes it alone will be quickly deciphered and eliminated either by sniper or tank or worse yet, a missile for the entire block. ... felix

[mike in co]

In a combat situation, you need to figure your helpers. More than likely they will be 30-30 carrying folks, and of the 30-06 class, with a few 243s and 270s thrown in. If you are the "local" gun nut, then you'd best take care of them. Anyone who goes it alone will be quickly deciphered and eliminated either by sniper or tank or worse yet, a missile for the entire block. ... felix

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????

[felix]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

I agree whole heartedly, Mike. Ignorance is indeed bliss! ... felix

[mike in co]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

I agree whole heartedly, Mike. Ignorance is indeed bliss! ... felix


lol
huh ? what did he just say ??

happy new year felix......


mike in co

[felix]

Thanks, Mike, and to you and yours too!!! ... felix

[mike in co]

Thanks, Mike, and to you and yours too!!! ... felix

felix...if you look quick...you will notice i am just shy of 3000 posts...it might explain my posts here....lol

my jan 1 new years goal......hmmmm
lol

mike in co

[runfiverun]

looks like you made it.

[Old Ironsights]

Ta heck wit da thutythuty. My Urban Combat/Geneneral Purpose gun is my '92 in .357.

Still Combat Capable out to 200yds, eats anything and holds 11+1 magnums.

If I need longer range, that's what the Mosin is for.

Never thought much of spray & pray Gas Guns.

[JSnover]

"... or you just like seeing your words in print?"

felix...if you look quick...you will notice i am just shy of 3000 posts...it might explain my posts here....lol

my jan 1 new years goal......hmmmm
lol

mike in co

:kidding:

Happy New Year, Mikey!

[sundog]

Yup, Felix, if you are intending to secure the neighbor when the shtf, the localist reloader gun nut and the feller what stockpiled all the milsurp stuff for Y2K and going to be two guys in demand. In that scenario, every firearm available, regardless of caliber, will be pressed into service. Some are just better suited to some roles than others.

Happy New Year, Mike (the new post ***** [smilie=s:).

[OutHuntn84]

Now, IF the 30-30 had a rimless cousin and a rifle designed for modern combat, my question would be, is it better than what we have? In my opinion, probably not.


But wait they did (or pretty close to), it is the AK 47. One of the best combat weapons (arguable) in the world at this time.

Now it's time for my X-pert opinion!!! ;)

The 30-30 lever gun is a excellent firearm suitable for hunting, home defense and if necessary combat. All be it would not be the first gun I would grab for "modern combat" in the middle east, but would not feel to shy to take it if the need be. When fighting against semi and/or automatics fire power it would be in your favor to have the same. Especially when movement is necessary, the capability to "spray and pray" and get the enemies turbans down and possibly take a casualty, while moving. If you do not have the firepower to keep them down, they will try to take you out while out in the open. This is the tactic USUALLY used with "modern firearms" in "modern combat" waged in unfamiliar territory; rounds per minute counts! Now on the flip side if I did find myself carrying a levergun my TACTICS would change to a more conservative style to make up for my limited magazine capacity and rpm.

Finally to end this conflict, let me play this out for all of you.
Super Solider with his pretty, high tech, super cool battle rifle, who has been trained to use this weapon with the up most efficiency and Jim Bob with his grandpa's 30-30 levergun that he has been shooting all his life at four and two legged creatures decide to go at it. Jim Bob squatting behind a tree waiting for his shot and Super Solider popping and moving toward Jim Bobs location. As Jim Bob pokes out from around the tree and lines up his sights to take his shot, Super Solider sees movement and sights, acquires and fires a 5 round burst in to Jim Bob as he squeezes off a well aimed shot into Super Solider. Both die cursing the other.

Conclusion: Both weapons can be effectively utilized in combat. What matters more is the training experience and mindset of the operator utilizing them.

[mike in co]

Finally to end this conflict, let me play this out for all of you.
Super Solider with his pretty, high tech, super cool battle rifle, who has been trained to use this weapon with the up most efficiency and Jim Bob with his grandpa's 30-30 levergun that he has been shooting all his life at four and two legged creatures decide to go at it. Jim Bob squatting behind a tree waiting for his shot and Super Solider popping and moving toward Jim Bobs location. As Jim Bob pokes out from around the tree and lines up his sights to take his shot, Super Solider sees movement and sights, acquires and fires a 5 round burst in to Jim Bob as he squeezes off a well aimed shot into Super Solider. Both die cursing the other.

Conclusion: Both weapons can be effectively utilized in combat. What matters more is the training experience and mindset of the operator utilizing them.


but that would not be modern combat......some sorta one on one fight....

but nice ending...lol

mike in co

[mike in co]

Yup, Felix, if you are intending to secure the neighbor when the shtf, the localist reloader gun nut and the feller what stockpiled all the milsurp stuff for Y2K and going to be two guys in demand. In that scenario, every firearm available, regardless of caliber, will be pressed into service. Some are just better suited to some roles than others.

Happy New Year, Mike (the new post ***** [smilie=s:).


very nice comming from a guy with 2999 as i post this .....

happy new year to you too!

mike in co

[Tazman1602]

Man interesting thread. I *think* from all I've read the question is; "is the 30-30 suited for modern combat".

Suited, sure. Would it be my first choice? Probably not. I'd feel perfectly fine with the rifle if I had to use it, I'm confidant my abilities and tactics would be OK. Ballistics are fine, accuracy is great, firepower is so-so --- *only in the sense that I can't lay down suppressing fire enough to move where myself or my people need to* --- and if you're in a firefight that would seem to be the name of the game.............MOVE your butt and KEEP moving unless you occupy a fortified position of some kind.

If it's *just* myself against a trained squad? Shoot I'm dead anyway so I'll take as many with me as I can and Mr. 30-30 would be fine with me............BUT, if I have trained people that don't have to be ordered what to do to stay alive, I'd want one or more weapons that I can use to lay down some fire, make the bad guys move or stay put so that I and my people can MOVE and get an advantage somehow.

I'd be happy to be the guy who has to take the old 30-30 and whack one at a time while the rest of my people laid down some fire, moved positions, then laid down some more fire so I could move to them. Chances are good I could at least cut down the numbers on the other side.

Given the choice I'd rather not be in this situation to begin with but anything could happen. If I happened by the grace of God to come out on top of the situation, the last thing I'm gonna do is leave the other guys' rifles and ammo, I'll get them all if possible and use them to my advantage --- and if they happen to be M4's or even AK's or EVEN an SKS and I can't carry both? I'll disable the old 30-30 and take my chances. Again it's nothing but speculation. Give me ten trained men with 30-30's against a squad of malcontents and incompetents with AR's or whatever anyday.....Given my preference I'd have 100 feet in altitude on the bad guys and be about 400 yds out with a 30 cal, rather large scope, and a good supply of ammo....................

It's probably from a movie, and I think Mike has already eluded to this because the Mujahedin kicked Russia's butt with 100 year old rifles (OK, Hind excepted.....) but this quote:

"One man fighting for his home is worth ten paid mercenaries" is a valid quote. OH! "Robin Hood" with Kevin Costner I *think*..

OK now my post count has gone up too...............<GRIN> Man some of you guys get upset about speculation............

Happy New Year!

Art

[Bret4207]

I repeat, if all you have is a 30-30 it doesn't mean you're dead meat.

My post count kicks all yours.

[sundog]

Hey, Mike, just trying to keep up with the rest of y'all...

hmmmm, does this make 3K??? Gotta have some fun with it, or you'll go crazy!

[OutHuntn84]

but that would not be modern combat......some sorta one on one fight....

but nice ending...lol

mike in co

Mike,
I took a minute to see what Ole Webster had to say about the definition of modern combat. There wasn't one, they are smart enough to keep away from such controversy, but looking up the words separately here is what I found.
Modern- of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past:
Combat- a fight or contest between individuals or groups.
So Mike looks like my little story, soon to be movie, would be an accurate analogy of modern combat.
By the way thanks for scratching that argumentative itch I've been having lately:kidding:

[mike in co]

hey, mike, just trying to keep up with the rest of y'all...

Hmmmm, does this make 3k??? Gotta have some fun with it, or you'll go crazy!


corky is now a memeber of the silver order of 3k!!!!!

[mike in co]

Mike,
I took a minute to see what Ole Webster had to say about the definition of modern combat. There wasn't one, they are smart enough to keep away from such controversy, but looking up the words separately here is what I found.
Modern- of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past:
Combat- a fight or contest between individuals or groups.
So Mike looks like my little story, soon to be movie, would be an accurate analogy of modern combat.
By the way thanks for scratching that argumentative itch I've been having lately:kidding:
you would get more points if you went to the online publish what you want the answer to be, generate your own definition, then list it as a definitive source.......

strange, i never heard of aniyone being arested for combatting....but i have for fighting.

bottom line, in todays enviroment of armed combat in forgien lands, when one says "modern combat"....it is the only thig that comes to mind....not home defense, not selfdefense......sorry just aint gonna change my mind...no matter how manny books you stand on....tho they might give you a great pan shot for your movie....
lol
mike in co

[OutHuntn84]

you would get more points if you went to the online publish what you want the answer to be, generate your own definition, then list it as a definitive source.......

strange, i never heard of anyone being arested for combatting....but i have for fighting.

bottom line, in todays enviroment of armed combat in forgien lands, when one says "modern combat"....it is the only thig that comes to mind....not home defense, not selfdefense......sorry just ain't gonna change my mind...no matter how manny books you stand on....tho they might give you a great pan shot for your movie....
lol
mike in co

LMAO
Well when I worked in the county jails (as a jailer) I've had to handle plenty of combative intakes and as a reserve I've responded to many calls with multiple combatants. Even played Mortal Combat a few times as a kid. I understand and partially agree with your opinion, but for argument sake, you aint changing my mind either! Dag Nabit!:drinks:

[Four Fingers of Death]

With all of this 30/30 talk, I'll have to get my thutty thuttys out of the safe and get some range and hunting time in. A bit of practical, recent research is needed!

Wow! I just noticed, I have also recently cracked 3000 posts! I need to get out more often! :D