Lyman epoxy two-part bullets?

[HangFireW8]

I got the latest (last year, I think) printing of the Lyman cast bullet handbook. Seems like a reprint of the 1980 version.

In there they had an article about 2-part, epoxy glued boolits. The idea was that you cast a soft lead expanding point and a separate base and then glued them together in your lubrisizer.

I've worked with epoxy, fairly extensively actually, I wouldn't want it in MY lubrisizer.

I take it this has been discontinued? Did it ever really make it to market?

Has anyone here messed with one of these mold sets? I tried to do a search, but too much info on glass bedding came up.

-HF

[Randall]

I remember something about that. Didn't Ross Seyfried try that and also tried two part casting in the same mould in an article?

[pdawg_shooter]

I have had good luck by pouring pure lead from a cut down .357 brass followed by a harder alloy in the same 44 mould. Yes, you can see the line where the alloys meet, but they do bond. I tried twisting a bullet apart in a vise with a vice grip and couldnt do it.

[Harry O]

I don't know if this is what is in the article you mention, but I have a boolit mould from Lyman that is supposed to be for a soft nose and hard, plain-base bullet.

There are two moulds in the box. One is for the nose. You are supposed to cast soft lead in it. The base is a different mould. You are supposed to cast hard lead in it. The two fit together with a beveled joint around a flat base. There is a special nose punch in the kit that matches the base part of the bullet so it can be sized and lubed BEFORE adding the soft nose. The two parts are supposed to be held together with epoxy. When done, it is supposed to match the contour of a Keith bullet.

There is an article about it in a cast bullet booklet I have that shows pictures of several bullets recovered at different velocities. They all held together. They supposedly made this in three calibers, .357, .44 and .45 calibers. I have the .357 one, but have not used it yet. The 358156 does all I need in that caliber and I believe it is a lot less fuss.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Go to the SEARCH box and type Soft Nose. Lots of in.
But basicly the Expoxy boolits fail. Two part cast boolits will fail (break apart) IF the metals are not "Liquid lead Bonded" together at the joint.
I have made them in 41 mag and 458+.
What works is # 1 to have 2 pots going.. soft and harder to cast both parts at the same time so the two liquids mix at the seam.
#2 Insert the precast soft nose into the mold.. reheat the mold so the nose goes liquid and then adding the hard base mix.
#3 Cast both parts knowing they are not melted together then heat the mold to liquify both parts together.
These 3 systems work because the 2 mixes are as liquids bonded at the joint.
The Soft nose - Hard base boolits work ... But are so time consuming I seldom do it as just a plane soft boolit does all I need or I just get out a bigger bore firearm.
But having the option and experimenting Is what I like !
Mike God bless you

[jhalcott]

The good thing about the 2 part bullets is the fact you only need a few for a full season hunting. They shoot to the same POA as the regular cast bullets. You can practice all you want with the "regulars" and hunt with the soft noses.

[Maven]

Hangfire, The Lyman composite CB required the purchase of two molds, one for the hollow base and one for the softer nose, plus a nose punch unless you already had one for #358429, #429421 or #454424 on which it was based. Added to that expense was the inconvenience of casting bases as well as noses and then having to epoxy them together. Cyanoacrylic cement, e.g., Crazy Glue, would probably work just as well, but was it as commonly used as epoxy glue in 1980? Btw., I reviewed the description you wrote of and think Ken Ramage's mistake was to size them before the epoxy had fully cured. The better way would have been to assemble the 2 components and let the epoxy cure for 24 hrs. before attempting to size them. Since many discovered more efficient (in terms of $ and effort), but equally effective means of casting composite CB's, Lyman dropped that mold from its offerings. Maybe people who initially purchased them have been holding on to them because they rarely appear on any of the auction sites.

[Harry O]

I've got one of the moulds (358624), but like I said, I have not used it -- at least yet. If the cost of gas checks keeps going up, I will use it.

However, it is NOT supposed to be sized and lubed AFTER epoxying them. The instructions state that the base is supposed to be sized BEFORE joining the two parts. That may be part of the problem with those who had failures.

Lyman included a special "nose" punch that allowed that (it is unlike any other Lyman nose punch I have ever seen). I would think that the nose would be too soft to push a hard base through the sizer with a conventional nose punch. It would probably break the epoxy bond and deform the soft nose.

The article I was thinking of was in the "Cast Bullets Supplement No. 1", pages 17 and 18. Like the instructions with the mould say, the author sized and lubed the base first, and then joined the nose with epoxy. There is a LOT more bond area than a flat joint would have (probably about 3 times as much). The rear has a steep inside bevel in it to match the bevel in the nose. The author also had 6 pictures of bullets recovered after shooting them in wet phonebooks. They ranged from 1,002fps to 1,600fps. None of them failed.

[Maven]

Harry O, I read that article yet again and was about to add that the bases were to be sized first and separately from the soft noses. Once epoxied together and after the glue has cured, they're supposed to be "sized" and lubed in another operation.* (There's a photo of it in the article.) That's a lot of work for questionable results. I.e., Lyman didn't reveal their methodology or how extensively the composite CB's were tested:

"'Full-house' loads were used in all test to duplicate probable** hunting conditions. We learned two things: a) The composite pistol bullets are (sic) more comparable to a jacketed bullet than a hard alloy cast bullet in terms of accuracy/expansion. b) The proper choice of propellant can halve, literally, your group size!" (p. 112, CB Handbk.)



*"Once the epoxy has adequately set up, crank in the lubricant and process the bullets as you would a regular cast bullet." (Ibid., p. 113)

**"probable hunting conditions" are neither defined nor explained.

[HeavyMetal]

I remember these molds! Came out some time late 70's early 80's!

As I recall Lyman was not making HP's molds, or was trying to get away from them, I can't recall which. All I know is at that time my local dealer couldn't get one on the shelf.

This two mold set up was kinda pricey and I don't think it sold well.

My thought was for the few rounds I would hunt with I could cast out of pure lead and get all the expansion I needed if the velocity was right.

Suspect I wasn't the only one to come up with that thought! That composite set up will be worth money someday as a "vintage" auction item on evil bay.

[Shuz]

Use the "search" feature and type in "soft nose composite" Then read the various posts about this type of bolit construction. Hope this helps.--Shuz

[klw]

When they were introduced I just couldn't resist. Ordered one of each. Had two I think. Never used them. They sat in the closet for maybe a decade. Kind of wish I had tried them.

[Harry O]

Harry O, I read that article yet again and was about to add that the bases were to be sized first and separately from the soft noses. Once epoxied together and after the glue has cured, they're supposed to be "sized" and lubed in another operation.

You must be reading a different article than me. The one I have says "The kit contains two single-cavity molds, one for casting the soft lead core and another for the hard lead jacket, plus a special top punch for sizing the jacket before cementing the core in place. Full instructions for assembling the bullets are included." He is right; that is what the instructions say. There is nothing in the article I have that says anything about sizing after the bullets are glued together. That is different from what you originally said, "The better way would have been to assemble the 2 components and let the epoxy cure for 24 hrs. before attempting to size them." and what was said above.

I have cast bullets up to Bhn 18 (air dropped) and know how much force it takes to push them down into the sizer. I also have cast plenty of bullets in the Bhn 6 range and know how little force it takes to deform their nose with even a properly fitting nose punch. There is no way in H3LL that a hard base could be sized by pushing on a soft nose. It isn't going to work.

[jhalcott]

That is where a LEE or starr "push thru" sizer is really woth having. I sized a few of my soft nose bullets and checked them in a Lee sizer. Lube was applied by hand or LLA was used.
Accuracy was good to excellent both ways and the deer did NOT seem to care.!

[Maven]

Harry O, Although the article doesn't say so explicitly, I think Ramage sized (He may have used the term "swaged") the assembled & epoxied CB with a slightly larger sizing die. However, if he sized the bases first, assembled the CB's and then "sized" them again, primarily to apply lube (as per the article and my rereading of it), I don't think there'd be too much of a problem. It seems to me that the entire concept was expensive and time-consuming for dubious results.

[DAFzipper]

Sounds like a good group buy to me. A Lee 6 banger cut with 3 nose and 3 full sized cavities. What if the nose had a smaller diameter "pin" at the base to help it bond with the harder base alloy when cast?

[Harry O]

All this talk is just that -- talk. Rather than guess what the guy did who wrote the article, I dug out the moulds I have and intend to cast with them this weekend. Unfortunately, both moulds are single cavity.

I intend to cast the nose from Bhn 6 metal (approx 1% tin). It is a simple shape, without any ledges, nooks, or crannies so very little tin will probably work.

I intend to cast the rear section with a lead/antimony/tin mix that I tested at Bhn 18 with 270gr bullets (air dropped). Being that the base is probably no more than about 100gr, I would expect that mixture to cast at 1 to 2 Bhn harder than that. I don't intend to drop them in water or post-heat-treat them. The shape of the base DOES have a lot of ledges, nooks, and crannies, so I may not be able to cast it with the Bhn 18 mixture, even with the heat all the way up. I have had problems with casting moderately hard hollow-base bullets in the past (this is just a reverse hollow-base) and this one may have the same problem. If so, I will probably dilute the mixture down to Bhn 15 or so. I have no doubt that I will be able to cast with that.

I will take pictures of the individual components, the special "top punch" that is to be used to size the hard base and post them here. However, I will also try to size the bullet with the soft nose glued in place to see if it will work. I don't expect that it will, but will take pictures of that, either way. I have conventional two-part epoxy from the hardware store to try gluing them together. I also have some cheap (Chinese) gel-type super-glue that can be tried.

I do not intend to work the loads up in stages like the other guy did. My load in my .357 Magnum is 13.5gr of 2400 with a 358156-GC. I will use the same for this. Either it will replace the 358156-GC or it won't. If it doesn't, there is no use for this bullet at all. I should be able to check for leading at the indoor range fairly quickly. It will have to wait until the temperature warms up and the ground dries out before I can shoot them into wet phonebooks at the outdoor range (to see if they hold together), so that may take some time before I can report on that.

I will post in a new thread when I have some "proof", one way or the other.