Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson discuss hand loading ammunition for self-defense. Critic

[trapper9260]

I do not know if this belong here if not please move it to where it needs to be,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHAgBL4tf8&list=PLATxAfDIErHqgfhQr8nLszbbhkMzxJt3d&index=11

[pworley1]

Very interesting post.

[schutzen-jager]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

[dverna]

Good post!

Thanks

[T-Bird]

Never considered that angle on the subject, it makes perfect sense tho.

[HWooldridge]

I have heard this argument before. The example I was given is: You load your 44 magnum down to 44 Special velocities, then you shoot an intruder with that load. The bullet subsequently goes through a wall and injures an innocent person. The lawyers will ask why you didn't just buy factory 44 Special rounds and there really isn't any good answer for the question.

And even if criminal charges are dismissed or never prosecuted, you are still wide open for a civil suit - where the burden of proof is much less and the possibilities of a large monetary settlement are much higher. Handloads make for another variable that can go against you.

[Handloader109]

BS arguments. There isn't a prosecution for this. All speculation on MAs part. And easy argument is that oh, I bought those at a gunshow. It is the same argument as those that don't like some logos and text on the guns. Gives you the appearance that you were just looking to shoot someone. If it is a good self defense shooting, it is a good self defense shooting.
I buy SD ammo for my 9mm carry and have factory ammo in my long guns that I might use to defend myself, but I have my reloads in other guns. And if I grab one of those to use, so be it... reloads will be the least of your worries if you have to use your gun.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[MaryB]

This is a myth that refuses to die. Getting shot with a factory hollow point is no different than getting shot with a hand loaded one. And I use a pretty hot Buffalo Bore hollow point round in my .380, I also have a mag loaded with hand loads and if I grabbed the hand load it wouldn't make a difference, performance is virtually identical between them. When I use up the Buffalo Bore I will only use my hand loads.

And how will they know it is not factory ammo? I use a factory case, probably the same or very similar powder, a jacketed hollow point bullet just like the factory load... The cops aren't going to take all your ammo for testing, at most they will take what is in the mag. So no box saying it is X brand of ammo... I have never heard of anyone being asked what brand of ammo it is...

[Bmi48219]

I’ve read about SD cases that went south because the ammo used was reloads. GSR was one issue. Worse was the idea promulgated by media that reloading in itself was an indication of aggressive behavior.
There is a large segment of society (ie: potential jurors) that believe firearms are evil. If firearms are evil how will they view reloaders? Many of them will be jurors. Look at the way the DA tried to portray KR during his trial.
Face with a charge of murder, the cost of a box of SD ammo is small potatoes.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'll venture a guess that they'll know you were using reloads by the remaining rounds in your pistol. I'd also guess that using reloads is one of the lesser concerns for a good defense attorney.


DG

[bbogue1]

Armed Attournies had a great short video on this topic. Watch it at https://www.youtube.com/shorts/l7r4eeNPIUg It is about 2 minutes long. The two attorneys recommend it is your choice, hand load or factory. The prosecutor will try to sway the jury no matter what the origination of it is. So, it does not matter. Use whatever you feel will be safest.

[gwpercle]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

If anyone would know anything about that ... it would be Massad Ayoob ... he earns a good part of his income as an expert witness in firearms annunition and defensive shootings , testifying in court cases all over the country . I read his articles in gun magazines every month ( The Ayoob Files especially deals with actual court cases) and he has never mentioned reloaded ammo in any court case or in any charges filed .
But that's a good question to ask him ... being an expert witness he's been invlved in a lot of cases .
You know ... I would tend to take the advice that Massad gives on this topic ... he might not be a lawyer ... but that might be a good thing .
Gary

[schutzen-jager]

If anyone would know anything about that ... it would be Massad Ayoob ... he earns a good part of his income as an expert witness in firearms annunition and defensive shootings , testifying in court cases all over the country . I read his articles in gun magazines every month ( The Ayoob Files especially deals with actual court cases) and he has never mentioned reloaded ammo in any court case or in any charges filed .
But that's a good question to ask him ... being an expert witness he's been invlved in a lot of cases .
You know ... I would tend to take the advice that Massad gives on this topic ... he might not be a lawyer ... but that might be a good thing .
Gary

he has stated that it has been brought up at trials , but to the best of my knowledge + opinions of numerous attorneys + law enforcement it has never been a deciding factor in any legal decision - total myth that can be overridden by any prosecuter or defense with simple application of documented facts + common sense -

[Bmi48219]

Wonder if anyone has compiled data on the percentage of SD shootings that were accomplished using reloaded ammo?

[KCSO]

This was brought up in a shooting we had and it ended up a non issue, A good shooting is going to be good regardless of the ammo.

[Big Tom]

For the last 20 years, nobody that I know of was ever able to provide information about a single court case where this was even a topic. Does anybody here have actual information regarding this?

[MT Gianni]

Ayoob is the only one that has ever brought this up. He harps on it though it has never been brought up in court.

[HWooldridge]

My CCW instructor brought it up in class many years ago; he was the one with the 44 mag/44 special analogy - but you never know, he might have gotten it from Ayoob.

[Omega]

Over and over I hear this, but have never bought into it. If you use factory hollow points, then they will ask why not FMJ and vise versa. Prosecutors will try to use anything they can to get a conviction, so it matters not what you do. If I am ever asked why I used reloaded ammo, I'll respond with "that is what my weapon was loaded with when the perp decided to put me in fear for my or someone else's life, they should have waited until I had factory ammo in it".

[HWooldridge]

FWIW, I'm not sure I own much factory ammo other than 22 RF and 17 HMR...maybe some .223 FMJ and 12 gauge bird loads. Everything else is a handload.

[Larry Gibson]

Must remember Ayoob has a dog in this fight. He sells, as in dealer, high performance SD factory ammunition. CorBon if I recall correctly.

The use of deadly physical force justification is well defined by law. There is nothing in the law that says what kind of ammunition is ok to use. I researched this years ago as an LEA investigator and a firearms instructor. It was also discussed with an AG rep during an advanced investigation seminar with the determination there was no basis for any prosecution for the use of handloaded ammunition by LEOs or civilians as long as the shooting was justified.

So I'm out in the desert shooting my favorite cast bullet loads and some miscreant threatens me with a machete if I don't give up my Jeep. I refuse and he threatens to kill me and starts toward me. Am I supposed to say "nope, can't shoot you because I've got reloads in my gun. You'll have to hold on while I reload with factory ammo......." I'm sure that will be an option........

[Char-Gar]

he has stated that it has been brought up at trials , but to the best of my knowledge + opinions of numerous attorneys + law enforcement it has never been a deciding factor in any legal decision - total myth that can be overridden by any prosecutor or defense with simple application of documented facts + common sense -

This is the correct answer!

[schutzen-jager]

This is the correct answer!

thanks - seems to be a popular opinion with most posters on this thread + the several lawyers + leo's at my gun club -

[Char-Gar]

thanks - seems to be a popular opinion with most posters on this thread + the several lawyers + leo's at my gun club -

Ayoub had a nice gig going as a highly paid expert witness. He made a real stupid statement about the legal issues of using handloads for self defense. Lots of folks believed it, but he was an expert, or at least they thought so. Knowledge lawyers called BS on this as soon as the ink was dry, but still it goes on. Ayoub continues to make his assertion, but it is a much watered down version of his original nonsense.

[poppy42]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

I would never doubt Massad Ayoob and his wisdom! His knowledge base and wisdom exceeds anything I could ever hope to acquire. With that being said this same issue has been around as long as I’ve been Shooting, and I’ve been Shooting since 1980! Personally I have done extensive research and cannot slash have not found any documented case where charges have been brought against someone in a citizen involved self-defense shooting solely because of the use of him loaded ammunition! In every case I’ve been able to find there have always been mitigating circumstances. Chargers happen broad based on those other circumstances! While the fact that the defendant also used handloads might’ve also been used by the prosecution. But as I said in any of the caselaw that I’ve been able to find charges have never been filed solely because a defendant used handloads. If the shooting was justified, shooting was justified. It is however a calculated risk that only you can decide whether or not you wish to carry your handloads for self-defense! I carry my own hand loads and will continue to do so. In my case it’s probably more of a monetary thing than anything else. I shoot a lot and I train with the same ammunition that I carry for personal defense. Personally I could not afford to do so if I carried factory ammunition. Especially today when a box of premium quality defensive ammunition can go for 50 bucks or higher for 20 rounds! I urge everyone to do their own research and based their decision on that research.

[poppy42]

Wonder if anyone has compiled data on the percentage of SD shootings that were accomplished using reloaded ammo?

There is very little documentation regarding any citizen involved self-defense shooting. Things like what is the average number of shots fired in a citizen involved self-defense shooting. At least from any reliable sources. They just don’t exist. I’ve looked and I’ve never been able to find anything.

[dverna]

I waited for sales of factory SD ammunition and got about 400 rds of 9mm's, 200 .40's and 200 .45's for the pistols. That will last a very long time as I may shoot a couple of mags a year of the stuff. I practice with reloads. Did the same for the 12 ga, about 300 rounds of buckshot and slugs and still have most of rounds I bought. Ditto with 500 rounds of factory for the AR's back when it was $7/box. I might have $600-700 invested.

I decided it was not a big deal to spend a bit to take one issue off the table...even if it is not an issue. And back then I lived in an area under the thumb of Democratic DA's.

Anything can be twisted to paint a negative picture. I have taken a number of SD classes...does that mean I am training to kill people? I used to shoot 20k rounds a year....am I training to kill people? Why does a citizen need to shoot 20 times more than most FBI, CIA and LEO agents?

I agree with others. A 'good shoot' is a 'good shoot' but there is still the chance you will need to defend yourself in court.

If you cannot afford factory ammunition, you are not much of a target for a civil suit so any legal risks of using reloads are minimized. And if you do not have a lot of money, you are likely not investing in high end training or shooting copious amounts of ammunition in competition.

If you have a net worth over $1 million, and carrying reloads to save money, it seems like poor judgement. If you are using reloads because they are "better", do not post that here, or elsewhere, because why do you need "better" ammunition than the police? Joe and Jane average may not agree with you.

Factors like where you live weigh in too. The DA for a big city is going to have a different mind set than the DA of Red Neck USA. Are you a member of a "white supremist militia" like the Proud Boys or Oath Keepers? Lots of crap can be used against you.

In the end, weigh all the factors and do what you can afford and be comfortable with.

[firefly1957]

This comes up every now and then and if true the government could also tell you what caliber to use just by limiting ammo for the ones they do not like!
After an incident with a meth head I talked to police and prosecutor here reloads and even cast bullets matter not only if the shooting was justified.

[Four-Sixty]

An Attorney can also argue a reloader handloads to make practice more economical, and therefore become a safer firearms user.

[JSnover]

I used to read Ayoob's work and I appreciate what he does but couldn't the argument go just as easily against factory loads?
If you bought the latest and greatest gun with all the best features for 'combat effectiveness' and then loaded it with factory ammunition that was marketed as the deadliest defensive cartridges ever devised, you might have to explain those choices in court.
In either case the prosecutor can try to paint you as a blood-thirsty psychopath. If you ever envision the possibility of shooting someone in self-defense get your mind right first and don't give your friends/neighbors/co-workers the impression that yer jest itchin' for a chance to blast somebody.

[deltaenterprizes]

This is a myth that refuses to die. Getting shot with a factory hollow point is no different than getting shot with a hand loaded one. And I use a pretty hot Buffalo Bore hollow point round in my .380, I also have a mag loaded with hand loads and if I grabbed the hand load it wouldn't make a difference, performance is virtually identical between them. When I use up the Buffalo Bore I will only use my hand loads.

And how will they know it is not factory ammo? I use a factory case, probably the same or very similar powder, a jacketed hollow point bullet just like the factory load... The cops aren't going to take all your ammo for testing, at most they will take what is in the mag. So no box saying it is X brand of ammo... I have never heard of anyone being asked what brand of ammo it is...

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

[M-Tecs]

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

In the 70's Taggants were purposed but they never happened. Other than Red Dot, Green Dot and Blue Dot I have not seen any evidence of dye in powders for reloading verse factory.

Do you have a source for this?

[derek45]

My Daughter just walked by and said - "that's definitely a wig "

LOL

I think she's right

[jonp]

The myth won't die. Just stop with the handloaded BS

[jonp]

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

What wavelength is this die visible in?

[Handloader109]

Dye in it eh? Turns black when fired.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[popper]

Remember the 'dum-dum'? All the talk about them being 'illegal'? Uh, soft-nose expanding bullets. I.e. hunting bullets. The are several classifications of ammo we can't have. Anything else is OK.
I've read some of Ayoob's work, concluded he's full of himself.

[country gent]

In answer to J Snoover, Back in the 80s when Winchester brought out the black talon line surgeons and authorities were proclaiming it was to deadly and dangerous. The sharp petals formed by the scored jackets nose did to much damage and cut rubber gloves

[megasupermagnum]

The only possible thing I can gather from that is don't use loads that are wildly outside of normal. If you are loading ammo to a normal range, it's going to leave GSR no matter who manufactures it, or no matter the powder. While using a factory load is not going to make things worse, I'm not convinced it will ever make things better. Mas brings up some good cases, but are you really telling me either one of those would matter what ammo they used, or even what gun? The evidence said the gun was fired in a certain direction, I fail to see how anything else matters. Maybe that 38 special +P will throw a bigger fire ball, and more residue. So what? I don't see how that could matter. In both of his examples it was bullet direction that mattered. In the case of George Zimmer, I just don't see how it matters at all what you are shooting when the gun is basically point blank. His only example that involved GSR determining distance was suicide case. That's a whole can of worms in itself. In a self defense shooting I've never heard of an example where distance was any factor. Unless you are talking examples like George Zimmer on who was on top of who, I don't see how distance is any factor. It's never been covered in any CCW class I've taken.

I personally just put this in with the huge pile of "what if's". A person can go insane trying to beat every what if. Worry about what matters. Train, practice with your handgun (and long guns), take CCW classes even in a constitutional carry state. Make sure you are carrying a reliable and accurate handgun. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations. Everything else is a shade of grey.

[AnthonyB]

Are you sure there is an anvil in the primer of every factory round you buy?

I remember an article by Ross Seyfried about the absolute, most reliable ammo. That was one of his considerations for dangerous critters, if I remember correctly. I also seem to remember the same article mentioned him using factory ammo on the way to his championship as one less thing that was on him to worry about. He could then worry about shooting only; not his fault if there was a problem. The article explained it as a mental thing.
Tony

[30calflash]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

[M-Tecs]

In answer to J Snoover, Back in the 80s when Winchester brought out the black talon line surgeons and authorities were proclaiming it was to deadly and dangerous. The sharp petals formed by the scored jackets nose did to much damage and cut rubber gloves

Black Talons were marketed as a buss saw. It was not true than and it's not true now. The line was renamed SXT's than Ranger T Series. Nothing special or unique about them other than marketing BS that backfired on them.

https://www.guns.com/news/2013/03/22/winchester-black-talon-versus-winchester-ranger-t-then-v-now-video

https://winchesterle.com/Ammunition/Products/Handgun/Ranger-T-Series

[megasupermagnum]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

I fail to see why this example would ever exist in the real world, at least with any kind of defining factor. Instead the only time something like this would come up would be a "I was 6 feet away and the guy was coming at me" vs "I was 30 feet away and ducking". I fail to see how reloads could ever become a factor, and as far as I can tell it never has. Mas brings up the Michael Brown case, in which the cop said he was being attacked. Mas tries to make it seem like a reload might cause an issue with proving how he was shot. As far as I can tell, gunshot residue wasn't even a factor in The Michael Brown case. The bullet traveled up his arm, there was evidence on the police car. That's besides a number of witnesses who watched it happen. The only reason this blew up as big as it did is from rumors. A sketchy witnesses then passed on to idiot news sources, and eventually it turned into the whole hands up, don't shoot thing. I fail to see how what you are shooting would ever be a deciding factor in if someone was surrendering or not, and that's besides the fact that it was a scenario that never even happened at all.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that every case that Mas has ever brought up over the years with reloads came down to proving a scenario with GSR. Was he turned sideways, or was he facing you? He has never given an example of a case where "was he 6 feet, or was he 30?" a factor in an SD shooting. The one case he brought up about distance was the suicide, and in that case, how are you supposed to stop that? Never keep any reloads in the house ever again? Maybe not wrestle a gun out of someone's hands that has it cocked and pointed at their head? And who's to say the jury got it wrong? Who's to say the guy didn't murder his wife?

[trapper9260]

I posted this OP because I wanted to know what someone else thinks about it and thanks to all who did . Makes it easier for me to understand this better , yes I was going by what was said about the powder residue . That is the main reason I posted this. You all gave me the reply different reasons where I stand now . Yes I mainly can only afford my own reloads that is why I cast and reload my own . Thank you all . Always looking for more information on this and others on what you all post on here. I am always looking to learn something new and if I have a problem with something there is someone here always able to help thanks .

[markshere2]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

[dverna]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

Link did not work.

[30calflash]

The first link in #1 does.

marksere2 said it, watch the vid.

[Minerat]

I have Factory loads in all of my CCW firearms for one reason, they are reliable and most always feed. The reloads are the same but I always have that doubt in the back of my mind. I trust factory and I like those big flying trashcans in 45 acp HPs

[schutzen-jager]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

please substantiate how reloads had any bearing on outcome of those cases - subject was brought up as part of testimony only in the way i read + interpret it -

[JoeJames]

Interesting video. Never thought about gun shot residue and how the round needs to be able to be replicated for testing. It may be the best defense tool for a close in shooting. I carry a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 Special with 240 grain home cast bullets for walking around my place in the winter, but hopefully close encounters should not occur. In the summer I carry a Glock 43 with factory 9mm ammo in my hip pocket.

[375RUGER]

I used to read Ayoob's work and I appreciate what he does but couldn't the argument go just as easily against factory loads?

You would think so............Doesn't CorBon claim to make the most lethal ammo known? Winchester Black Talon ammo was sooooo lethal that Winchester had to rename it to be less lethal.

[MaryB]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

I pull out my reloading manual, point to the load I used and say "see, it is within spec for what factory ammo delivers." I do not reload for max speed, I reload for max accuracy so I am never at the top of the scale.

[Net]

Seems the argument can be made for factory hollow points just as easily. I'd like to believe a reasonable jury would not see a difference in reloads vs factory.

[redneck1]

My thoughts tend toward ayood is a self important arrogant Jack ass that made his living selling his drivel to the highest bidder as a professional witness .
He's got nothing to say I need to hear .

And on the subject , I've found my handloaded ammunition to be far more reliable then factory.
So for better or worse if I ever feel the need to carry that's what I'll be using .
Better to be judged by twelve then carried by six .

[downzero]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

I used WestLaw a few years ago and searched to the ends of the earth and could not find a single reported case where that ever came up. I searched every court in America (when I was in law school, we had limitless access to every database they have).

[schutzen-jager]

Seems the argument can be made for factory hollow points just as easily. I'd like to believe a reasonable jury would not see a difference in reloads vs factory.

totally concur - totally rational + precise thinking -

[schutzen-jager]

I used WestLaw a few years ago and searched to the ends of the earth and could not find a single reported case where that ever came up. I searched every court in America (when I was in law school, we had limitless access to every database they have).

i also tried to research it numerous times including New Jersy where one incident was said to have occured + could find nothing -

[reddog81]

The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

Do you think you are some sort of FBI agent or just a vigilante want to be police officer? The prosecutor can try and spin anything. The Kyle Rittenhouse prosecutor tried to get him for using FMJ - it's what the military uses!!! If he had used hollow point ammo they would have questioned why he was prepared to hunt humans... KR's response was great. He basically said he used what was cheapest and available. The prosecutor continued pushing it and eventually he had to give up because the more he pushed it the worse it made him look.

If you use your own reloads you can just say it is what you practice with, was available and known to be reliable. The whole point of using deadly force is to use something that will work to stop the threat.

[reddog81]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?
He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.


He spends the most time on the Daniel Bias case. This was NOT a self defense case. The only logical conclusion from that case is that you should not handload ammo because someone might kill themselves with it...

[JSnover]

You would think so............Doesn't CorBon claim to make the most lethal ammo known? Winchester Black Talon ammo was sooooo lethal that Winchester had to rename it to be less lethal.
Yeah, I remember the Black Talon fiasco. Now we have Cor Bon, "R.I.P.", Zombie Ammo...
I still have some Starfire downstairs, maybe I could claim I thought it was some sort of fireworks. Sounds more artsy/flashy/sparkley than Black Rhino and whatever else they come up with. Even Gold Saber might make me look like someone who thought he was on a mission from God.
I spent a lot of time understanding (or trying to) the courtroom aspect back when I first start buying guns for HD and decided the best strategy didn't involve load data or factory specs: Have a plan. Train as much as you can. Try to stay cool when something goes wrong.

[poppy42]

OK so I’ll play devils advocate for some of you folks out there that want to use factory ammunition for self-defense, in particular the same ammunition of police use:
Defense: so Mr. Jones you use the same ammunition at the police departments use in their service weapons. Yes sir I picked it because that’s what all the police use.

Prosecutor: so you’re one of those law-enforcement wannabes that feels that it’s OK to be judge jury and executioner.
You’ll ponder that!
Here’s another one for you. Awful lot of people that go out and buy special self-defense ammunition don’t practice with it. Why you ask? That’s an easy question because it’s special and I don’t wanna have to use it and less I have to! Only to find out that it’s point of impact is 10 inches off the point of aim using the ammunition that you sited in your gun with. I’ll stick with my handloads the same ammunition I practice with.

[country gent]

I believe Glasser was on target when they marketed their high performance ammo as SAFETY SLUGS and touted the no over penetration aspect. They carry a good track record for the most part

As was said Ominous names and ads promoting the devastating results and this just makes it too easy to use by a prosecutor

[dverna]

OK so I’ll play devils advocate for some of you folks out there that want to use factory ammunition for self-defense, in particular the same ammunition of police use:
Defense: so Mr. Jones you use the same ammunition at the police departments use in their service weapons. Yes sir I picked it because that’s what all the police use.

Prosecutor: so you’re one of those law-enforcement wannabes that feels that it’s OK to be judge jury and executioner.
You’ll ponder that!
Here’s another one for you. Awful lot of people that go out and buy special self-defense ammunition don’t practice with it. Why you ask? That’s an easy question because it’s special and I don’t wanna have to use it and less I have to! Only to find out that it’s point of impact is 10 inches off the point of aim using the ammunition that you sited in your gun with. I’ll stick with my handloads the same ammunition I practice with.


Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

[M-Tecs]

Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

Historically there has been one actual case that reloaded ammo became a real issue and that was suicide. On the other hand, history is full of cases of the prosecutor claiming vigilantism and or claims of law-enforcement wannabes believing that it’s OK to be judge, jury and executioner. Almost any case involving a community watch member using deadly force turns into claims of excessive force used by a law-enforcement wannabe.

A good prosecutor will use common sense and only prosecute people and their actions that are legitimately illegal activities. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of the prosecutors are only interested in winning the case and will do whatever it takes to win. They will attack anything and everything you did. Ammunition selection historically is a non-factor unless it poison tipped, mercury filled or something like Dragons Breath.

Again, common sense goes a long way on this issue. Using deadly force to stop very bad behavior with the most effective ammunition is easy to defend. Using ammunition that increases pain and suffering without increasing stopping effectiveness or something that is intended to kill after the threat is over like bullet dipped in something to cause infections not so much.

Good example of what not to use for SD. https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/poisoned-bullets.html#:~:text=For%20centuries%20aconitin%20 has%20been%20used%20to%20tip,bullet%20fragments%20 within%20the%20target%20releasing%20the%20poison.

[markshere2]

please substantiate how reloads had any bearing on outcome of those cases - subject was brought up as part of testimony only in the way i read + interpret it -

Quote from the Cops, " You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

Translated - you will be punished by the process, and possibly by the outcome.

We have seen malicious prosecutors all over the country from George Zimmerman to Kyle Rittenhouse.

You go right on doing what you are doing, if " being right" is so important to you.

Immana lissen to Mas and minimize the risk to my freedom and finances.

[reddog81]

It's not a matter of being right. It's a matter of someone making claims that aren't supported by any facts. The fact that he can't bring up any relevant civilian self defense cases from the whole history of criminal law only helps prove that it is not a concern.

[JSnover]

Quote from the Cops, " You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

Translated - you will be punished by the process, and possibly by the outcome.

We have seen malicious prosecutors all over the country from George Zimmerman to Kyle Rittenhouse.

You go right on doing what you are doing, if " being right" is so important to you.

Immana lissen to Mas and minimize the risk to my freedom and finances.
If it helps you sleep better, it's as good a choice as any.
If/when you get to court the primary issues will be why and how you shot someone. Zimmerman and Rittenhouse - as far as I know - used factory loads and were indeed punished by the process. I live in South Jersey now (and I can't blame anyone but myself for that) and I get a lot of news from Philadelphia. That city is on track to break last years' record for homicides including a surprising number of defensive shootings. Never a word in any of the reports about anyone using reloads vs. factory.
Wouldn't we see a surge in anti-reloading laws if a number of high-profile cases hinged on hand-loaded ammunition? Gun crime is up everywhere and component sales are phenomenal. Why hasn't the media (and those jack wagon prosecutors like Philadelphia's own Larry Krasner) made the connection? Maybe because there isn't one.

[Ed K]

Assuming an over-zealous prosecutor in each case, it’s hard to imagine a cast boolits member equipped with hand loads and wheel gun has more to be concerned with than someone with a documented history of heavy tactical training firing Ranger XST (AKA Black Talon).

Who here was looking for a fight? Maybe a wheelgun & handloads is a good defense!

[poppy42]

Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

Don’t know what part of my post offended you but it certainly was not meant to offend anybody. As a matter of fact my little prosecutor or defense attorney scenario is not that much different than what the prosecutor tried to pull on Kyle Rittenhouse. As far as the second part I’ve personally known plenty of people they foolishly had the same box of ammunition in there safe for years because it was special and they didn’t want to use it up for practice. Anyway sorry again for whatever it was that offended you.

[Idaho45guy]

I used to carry only factory ammo for SD, until I actually could afford to benchrest that fancy ammo and realized that my carry pistol at the time was wildly inaccurate with it, while my handloads were over 300% more accurate.

I carry self-defense reloads because they are the most accurate loads for my pistols and I care about public safety and not missing my target.

Using only factory SD loads for carry guns due to worry about lawyers is like only using silver bullets in case you get attacked by a werewolf.

[schutzen-jager]

It's not a matter of being right. It's a matter of someone making claims that aren't supported by any facts. The fact that he can't bring up any relevant civilian self defense cases from the whole history of criminal law only helps prove that it is not a concern.

totally agree - just because someone states it or you read it on the internet does not make it a true fact -

[Rapier]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

[HWooldridge]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

I was in a jury pool once for a murder trial - woman shot her boyfriend. During voir dire, the defense attorney asked if anyone in the 60 person group knew anything about ballistics or reloading ammunition - no other info was provided. About a half dozen men, including me, raised their hands. Defense attorney then asked each of us if we would listen to and accept testimony from an expert witness. He got to me and I said sure, so long as it didn't contradict something I knew wasn't true. Lawyer asked me to clarify with an example, so I replied, if the expert said a .38 revolver fired a bullet at 4000 fps, I would recognize that as an inaccurate statement. Lawyer said thank you very much and moved on. Every one of the people who raised their hands were struck from the selection (no surprise there). I also found out later through the newspaper that she had used a .38 revolver to shoot the guy...funny coincidence.

[dverna]

Rapier,

You make the point I attempted to make much better.

Finial comments:

I am not too concerned about a criminal case.

It is the civil case that worries me. The bar for "guilt" is much lower in a civil suit. I am old, "rich" (compared to some), white, and "racist" (as some like to label people like me). It you have insurance and assets, the civil case is more likely. If you drive a 20 year old pickup and rent a single wide, the chances of a civil suit are very slim indeed.

Digest the opinions expressed in this thread in light of your net worth, type and amount of insurance you carry, and where you live. Some of the comments are questionable with a bit of critical thinking.

What makes sense for your situation is what is important.

[Omega]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

Here in TN, you can't be sued in civil court if the case is deemed self defense, and you can't be tried criminally for any weapons charge if the shooting was self defense. We had an instance where a felon used a gun he had to defend a store clerk, and no charges were filed due to him being a felon with a gun.

[MaryB]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

MN law prevents anyone injured during the commission of a crime from suing the innocent party. So if I shoot a thug breaking in my house he cannot sue for the injuries. If he trips and breaks his spine becoming paralyzed(and my cat is great for that at night in the dark!) he cannot sue me for it. Law came about when some thugs tried to sue a store owner after they were injured breaking in.

[buckwheatpaul]

Great post. That is exactly why I only carry factory loads. I use my reloads for practice...and pray that I never have to use the factory loads!

[M-Tecs]

Criminal and Civil cases have one thing in common. Once they are ended they both become part of actual history. As such we have historical evidence of the court's outcome. Where is all the actual evidence of reloads being an issue in either criminal or civil court cases???????????

[schutzen-jager]

Criminal and Civil cases have one thing in common. Once they are ended they both become part of actual history. As such we have historical evidence of the court's outcome. Where is all the actual evidence of reloads being an issue in either criminal or civil court cases???????????

i have found none in over 3 decades that have influenced any rulings at all -

[Larry Gibson]

Let's not be confused by facts.........:???:

[snowwolfe]

I have heard this argument before. The example I was given is: You load your 44 magnum down to 44 Special velocities, then you shoot an intruder with that load. The bullet subsequently goes through a wall and injures an innocent person. The lawyers will ask why you didn't just buy factory 44 Special rounds and there really isn't any good answer for the question.

And even if criminal charges are dismissed or never prosecuted, you are still wide open for a civil suit - where the burden of proof is much less and the possibilities of a large monetary settlement are much higher. Handloads make for another variable that can go against you.

Not true in all states. Tennessee has a law that states if a shooter is not charged with a crime they CAN NOT be sued.

[M-Tecs]

Armed Attournies had a great short video on this topic. Watch it at https://www.youtube.com/shorts/l7r4eeNPIUg It is about 2 minutes long. The two attorneys recommend it is your choice, hand load or factory. The prosecutor will try to sway the jury no matter what the origination of it is. So, it does not matter. Use whatever you feel will be safest.

Well worth the time to watch.

[rancher1913]

all i know is if my wife ever had to use her ccw and it failed to fire, i would rather it be with factory loads than mine, not sure if i could handle it if she were killed due to a misfire. i have only had 1 or 2 bad rounds in umpteen dozen years of loading but i am not going to take a chance

[M-Tecs]

If anyone would know anything about that ... it would be Massad Ayoob ... he earns a good part of his income as an expert witness in firearms annunition and defensive shootings , testifying in court cases all over the country . I read his articles in gun magazines every month ( The Ayoob Files especially deals with actual court cases) and he has never mentioned reloaded ammo in any court case or in any charges filed .
But that's a good question to ask him ... being an expert witness he's been invlved in a lot of cases .
You know ... I would tend to take the advice that Massad gives on this topic ... he might not be a lawyer ... but that might be a good thing .
Gary

He also earns a good part of his income as a gun writer. I do recognize his status as arguably the foremost legal expert on this subject. His ability or LACK of ability to provide actual evidence of reloads being an actual criminal or civil issue raises a couple of red flags for me.

Some people have an anti-reloading bias for any application period??? Is he one of those?? Gun writers tend to get a lot of "free" stuff. They also tend to want to influence their readers to purchase stuff from the people that are giving them "free" stuff?? "Following the money" tends to provide additional insight???

I have no idea if that is an influence or not but I do have a good friend that lives 1 1/2 miles from Mas and they shoot together a lot. Per my friend Mas never seems to be short factory ammo??? Just food for thought.

Historically the lack of actual cases where reloads was an issue indicates this is much ado about nothing. Could it become an issue? Anything is possible. It's possible that I could be attacked by a werewolf? since no one has proven that werewolf's do not exist? Until someone proves that werewolves exist, I will not be carrying silver bullets.

Same for reloads being an issue for SD. Until there is/are actual court cases that has resulted in a reload influencing the outcome I treat this as a non-issue.

[jonp]

I think Ayoob was trying to get to a good point but the myth took over. His point, i think, is that a prosecutor will try and use anything for a conviction so giving that person as little as possible is a good idea. Handloaded ammo is just one more thing he/she could bring up and as we all know most people cant tell an AK from an AR so will believe most anything told to them.
We just watched Kyle Rittenhouse get pulled through the wringer by a publicity hound DA. Imagine if Rittenhouse had handloaded his ammo?

[M-Tecs]

Imagine if Rittenhouse had handloaded his ammo?

I imagine he would have used the same defense he did. "It was the cheapest ammo available"


Some more interesting discussion here.

https://www.msgo.com/threads/reloading-self-defense-ammunition.7159/

[Murphy]

I can't remember the first time I read the debate about using handloads in a self defense situation. And, I can't find one single instance where in doing so sent someone to prison if it was a justified shooting. Self defense is self defense.

Massad Ayoob is a man I'd want on my side if I were ever involved in a shooting and needed expert testimony, no doubt. On the other hand, I'd bet the article Ayoob wrote years ago about the use of handloads for self defense, was one he wished he hadn't. He's probably been asked about it more times than he cares to talk about.

Murphy

[popper]

Now he says OK to talk to police. And don't take a gun to answer the door at 3am. Your loads vs factory? Silly as 'why did you use 45 when 22 would work?'.

[FISH4BUGS]

...a good shoot is a good shoot....end of story.

[markshere2]

...a good shoot is a good shoot....end of story.

No such thing as a good shoot.

Lots of necessary shoots, and there are a bunch of people that need to be sent to meet Jesus, but no good shoots.

You own every bullet and if you are not thinking about the repercussions in terms of both civil and criminal lawfare, you need to rethink.

The communists and leftist (yes, redundant) prosecutors hate you for daring to be free and defend yourself.

Hence, the prosecutions of George Zimmerman and Kyle Rittenhouse and the cop involved with George Floyd.

Ignore that history at your own peril.

Not I.

[armoredman]

"Why were you carrying super deadly home made ammunition?"
"Have you looked at an ammo shelf at a gun shop lately? The good stuff is gone, man."
"You made super deadly, midnight express killer rounds, designed to be the most lethal you could dream up in your sweat soaked basement murder hole!"
"First, let me congratulate you on that expressiveness. Second, the recipe I use is a commercially available one with common unaltered components, examples of every part which have been taken into evidence along with my load book, which shows that I do not load to max, simply within known expansion range and maximum accuracy."
"You will lose the civil suit!"
"Counselor, this is Arizona - if I am determined to be justified, there is NO civil suit allowed, per Constitutional amendment and Arizona Revised Statues. Now, I am off to have a beer, have a nice day" :D

[JSnover]

"Why were you carrying super deadly home made ammunition?"
"Have you looked at an ammo shelf at a gun shop lately? The good stuff is gone, man."

Or this: "Have you read the warnings on that store-bought ammo? That stuff is dangerous!"

[facetious]

One thing to remember is that these are professional writers that write stuff with the hope of getting published. Magazines want writers that can generate a fallowing. One way is to start a controversy about something and take the side that won't get you or the publisher sued.

When a writer or magazine recommends something you can bet it's been reviewed for any liability. Their not going to get in trouble for recommending a quality factory ammunition .

That said I agree with the arguments for factory ammo in CCP gun.

[414gates]

It matters zero wether you use factory or reloads in a self-defence scenario.

If you kill your assailant, the prosecutor will do everything they can to convict you of murder.

If anyone is wounded as a result, that means an initial charge of attempted murder, plus everything else available in the book.

Prosecutors are rated by their conviction rate, not by their sensible application of justice.

Your defence attorney is not going to overturn any charges on the basis that the ammo used was factory. Read that till you understand.

[Battis]

much ado about nothing...
The premise of Michael Crichton's novel STATE OF FEAR was that people need, and love, to be afraid of something.

[Wag]

much ado about nothing...
The premise of Michael Crichton's novel STATE OF FEAR was that people need, and love, to be afraid of something.

The most salient comment I've read anywhere on line in a VERY long time.

--Wag--