A unique old pistol, and trouble with .380 acp.

[Hanzy4200]

I picked up this interesting pistol this weekend at the gun show. It is a CZ 38 made for the German military during WW2 while they were occupying the country. Very cool hinged barrel design. At $350 incuding the original military holster, I couldnt say no. Amazingly this is my first .380 pistol. I have dies and components as I load it for my father. I'm loading 95 gr (?) Lee RN powder coated, sized to .356, over TG. They will not chamber without extra effort. They will chamber under full power of the recoil spring, but then a good bit of force is needed to extract the live round.

I have adjusted COAL, and taper crimp to no help. As a quality control I dug out a vintage 1940's box of factory .380, and she ran those 100% Any ideas what I'm missing?

[TurnipEaterDown]

Might be that the cast bullet is larger than jacketed in dia, bringing the mouth of loaded cartridge up to chamber dimension.
You should be able to slug/cast the chamber to find out.

[hoodat]

Not familiar with that action, but if ya can, do a plunk test with finished round. Always the first step. jd

[dondiego]

Check how it works with factory loads. Check the chamber for a piece of brass left in place. Happened to me.

[725]

Try a taper crimp to "tweak" it into shape. Just the slightest adjustment will make all the difference.

[tja6435]

May need to have the barrel throated to seat out your .356 boolits where you want them. Dougguy did that for my SR1911

[Winger Ed.]

I've had issues like that in the past.
A taper crimp fixed them for me.

If you can feel sort of an edge on the top of a loaded case mouth, that could very well be the problem.
A taper crimp irons that out.

[lar45]

First off, Very Cool old pistol :)

A close up picture of your loaded round may help.
First thing I would check would be to see if there is any of the powder coat and or bullet that might be getting scraped off the side and build up in front of the case mouth.
If this is the case, flare the mouth a little more before seating the bullet.
You might also try seating and crimping in different steps.

Another option would be to try just a empty sized case and see if it drops into the chamber. If not then make sure the sizing die is turned down all the way, or try another brand of sizing die.

Make sure you are using 380 dies and not 9mm dies. The 380 is just slightly smaller than 9mm.

Make a dummy round and see where in the loading process it stops chambering.
sized case
seat a bullet with a partial taper crimp, see if it chambers, if not, maybe try seating a little bit deeper...
Once you get your seating depth, then adjust the taper crimp to just pinch the bullet allowing the round the fall into the chamber freely, but not too much of a crimp so it misses the step on the chamber.

Maybe measure your factory ammo at the base and mouth, compare to your handloaded round...

[Expat74]

congrats on the great find!

[mdi]

I think I would first disassemble the gun and give it an extra thorough cleaning. Next I'd do a chamber cast (supposed to be a 9x17 but made under wartime conditions?) and compare to modern SAAMI and/or CIP standards.. And whenever there is a "fit" problem, measure. Measure, in several places, the cartridge that fails an easy plunk test (diameters, lengths, etc.). These steps will probably show you where the problem lies...

[pworley1]

I don't have that pistol but my 1934 Beretta needed a slight taper crimp to function properly with cast.

[lbrowning]

I had a similar issue with .45 acp. The particular bullet nose was the slightest bit fatter just above the crimp, and they wouldn't cycle. I seated them a fraction more and they worked great. If that's the issue here, a plunk test will confirm. Best of luck.

[Bent Ramrod]

A friend had a 9mm Kurtz Mauser HSc that would feed and fire factory ammo very reliably and accurately, but would not work at all with reloads, even with the proper jacketed bullets. This was back before the days of taper or factory crimp dies.

Held very nicely, good trigger pull, attractive sight picture, and nice looking. He couldn’t figure out what was wrong with the functioning with reloads so he sold the gun, the shells and the loading dies.

[nvbirdman]

Are you sure your boolits are .356 after coating and sizing? Measure with a micrometer.
Standard bullets for 9mm and 380 are .355, possibly your boolits are too big FOR THAT GUN.

[wilecoyote]

I'm loading 95 gr (?) Lee RN powder coated, sized to .356, over TG. They will not chamber without extra effort. They will chamber under full power of the recoil spring, but then a good bit of force is needed to extract the live round.
I have adjusted COAL, and taper crimp to no help. As a quality control I dug out a vintage 1940's box of factory .380, and she ran those 100% Any ideas what I'm missing?
a black felt tip used to color your reloaded ammo will mercilessly reveal all contact points in the chamber, including unwanted ones

[Hanzy4200]

To some of the points. The pistol is remarkably clean inside and out. I cleaned the bore anyway it is was clean. My bullets are sized after powder coating at .356. Am I to gather most of you would suggest a factory taper crimp die? How does this differ from the roll crimp available from the seating die?

Maybe the extra taper crimp would solve my problems?

[wilecoyote]

Am I to gather most of you would suggest a factory taper crimp die? How does this differ from the roll crimp available from the seating die? Maybe the extra taper crimp would solve my problems?
rolling the brass mouth inside, an RC will create an imperceptible bulge at the point of application on the brass.
a TC will tend to taper the body of the brass more evenly around your boolit.
also, if I'm not mistaken, the .380 should adjust the headspace at the mouth of the brass, therefore a case evenly trimmed to specs. and a following taper crimp by a finely adjusted die seem appropriate.
...but a .380 three-dies set, with or without factory taper crimp 4th. die, should taper crimp anyway thank to his seater die by his own design...in lesser words: 380acp.=taper yes, roll no-no_

[lotech]

Start by measuring the outside diameter of a loaded cartridge with a micrometer (not caliper) and compare it with SAAMI specs for the .380.

[Texas by God]

Not ammo related, but do some research on firing pin troubles with that model. I seem to remember Massad Ayoob writing about some such.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

A 223 FL die can be used as a taper crimp die for the 380 ACP. If you have one remove the decap assembly and adjust the die to the tapered crimp needed.

[wilecoyote]

A 223 FL die can be used as a taper crimp die for the 380 ACP. If you have one remove the decap assembly and adjust the die to the tapered crimp needed.
with my utmost respect,
this is the touch of a true :drinks: Boolit Grand Master!

[Hanzy4200]

A 223 FL die can be used as a taper crimp die for the 380 ACP. If you have one remove the decap assembly and adjust the die to the tapered crimp needed.

Really? Might have to try that. Thanks

[Hanzy4200]

Not ammo related, but do some research on firing pin troubles with that model. I seem to remember Massad Ayoob writing about some such.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I will look, but I highly doubt it. This is a fairly obscure model. Not many made, far fewer left serviceable after the war.

[canyon-ghost]

Should a taper crimp not solve it, I always run a Wilson case tool for 5 turns over the outside of the case mouth. It's an extra step but, it keeps a sharp edge from stopping at the chamber. It's called a deburring tool. I do the inside too. Then, a good flair that barely fits inside the seating die. That way there isn't anything to hang up. It's tedious.

Ron

[Bigslug]

Sounds like a classic case of insufficient taper crimp to me. The bell that you produce to be able to seat the bullet must be squeezed back down. Measure the case mouth of the factory ammo, then compare with yours, THEN compare both with the dimensional blueprint for the round.

[bedbugbilly]

Load up a bump round, coat the bullet and casing with black magic marker - let it dry and then chamber it. It should show you where it is hanging up and tell you what you need to do to correct it - i.e. more crimp, issue with bullet size, shape, etc. If you can get a few flat nose boolits that taper down to the casing when seated - try making a couple of yummy rounds, loading as you normally do and see if the chamber any better. I use both a round nose cast and a flat nose tumble lube truncated shape bullet from a NOE mold - I have several 380s - my Beretta will chamber the RN but it chambers the FN easier - I have always attributed it to my Beretta having a shorter throat depth than my other 380, if that makes any sense.

Larry - thanks for the tip on the 223 FL die - wasn't aware of that and good to know.

[rintinglen]

I am not a huge fan of PC in pistols. I have had issues with my 9mm's, with the build up on the nose making for problems just as you describe. The bullet catches on the shoulder of the of the 358-242 in my Sigs, which seem to have a short throat and a tight chamber. I went back to tumble lubing and reserve my Smoke Powders for my revolvers where it seems to work just fine.

Now, were it I, I would try a smaller sizing die-.354 or .355-- and see how that works.

Oh and Larry's advice on the 223 die is dead on--just don't be a dufus like me and mislay the decapping rod. It won't re-appear until you buy a replacement.:groner: