70gr FFg Fills A .45-70 Case; Too Much Compression?

[Liberty1776]

I weighed out 70 grains of Goex FFg.

When I poured the FFg into an empty .45-70 case, the powder filled the case to the rim -- as full as it could get.

I pressed a 405 grain lead flat point in. I estimate that's about 5/8" of compression. Is that too much compression?

How do I get 70 grains of BP into a .45-70 case?

NOTE: I also tried measuring using a volumetric powder measure. The "70" charge weighed 69.9 grains.

[Outpost75]

Old balloon-head cases held 70 grains. Modern solid-head cases hold 55 grains, the carbine load.

[Liberty1776]

Old balloon-head cases held 70 grains. Modern solid-head cases hold 55 grains, the carbine load.

So a .45-70 case should be loaded to a max of 55 grains, regardless of bullet size?

[Nobade]

Use a drop tube. 70gr will fit with the drop tube and a compression die.

[trails4u]

Use a drop tube. 70gr will fit with the drop tube and a compression die.

Yes to the drop tube! For my loads I get to around 65-67gr depending on powder/lot.

[country gent]

The old balloon head cases were also thinner walled.
Start with a charge and wads that are no air space no compression and work up from there in your cases I have found 1 1/2 goex to want around .200-.250 compression. I normally work up in 2 grn increments watching velocity ( Standard deviation and extreme spread), fouling it gets lighter as the load gets more consistent, accuracy.

[Edward]

I use a 32 in drop tube /an old electric shaver fastened under the base holding the cartridge . With the vibration caused ,81 gr
of OE 1 1/2 grains fit no problem . No delay cause I am weighting the next charge while this happens/Ed

[Castaway]

As stated, use a drop tube or you can vibrate the powder to settle it. Dropping is more consistent. Don’t compress with your bullet, use a compression die or “fabricate” one with a seating die and a dowel. Compress so that the bullet sits on top of the powder and will still chamber. Weigh your charges. Probably 66-68 grains is a close equivalent to what you could put in old cases and be at the same level in the case, depending on brand of brass. Use a lube specifically for black powder. The purpose of the lube is primarily to keep your fouling soft. Leading should not be an issue given the velocities and the ability of black powder to obturate the bullet to fit the barrel.

[Don McDowell]

Get a funnel with at least a 4 inch tube, 8 inches works well and is manageable. Slowly pouring the powder into the funnel you should easily be able to fit 70 grs or as much as 75 grains in most 45-70 cases.
Then you'll need a compression die of some sort, if you're using Lyman, RCBS or Saeco dies the "M"/expander die can be adjusted to compress the powder with the wad on top to the desired depth to let the bullet seat without any risk of deforming the nose.

[BLAHUT]

I GAVE UP ON BLACK> IF YOU COMPRESS TOO MUCH WILL BURN LIKE A CIGERETT> WENT TO BLACKHORN209> 42 GRS> 500 GR BULLET> WITH A CARD WAD AND A PLASTIC WAD WITH A LITTLE COMPRESSION> LR MAG PRIMERS> ACCURATE OUT TO 1000YDS >
ABOUT 1200fps OR A LITTLE LESS> BULLET JUST PUSHED IN NO CRIMP IN A ROLER SO O.L. LENGTH MUST BE DEAD ON

[Randy Bohannon]

Has absolutely nothing to do with your inability to use the powder the cartridge was designed for.

[Edward]

Has absolutely nothing to do with your inability to use the powder the cartridge was designed for.

Could not have said it better /Ed

[indian joe]

I weighed out 70 grains of Goex FFg.

When I poured the FFg into an empty .45-70 case, the powder filled the case to the rim -- as full as it could get.

I pressed a 405 grain lead flat point in. I estimate that's about 5/8" of compression. Is that too much compression?

How do I get 70 grains of BP into a .45-70 case?

NOTE: I also tried measuring using a volumetric powder measure. The "70" charge weighed 69.9 grains.

Was that with the short Hornady brass?
my fired cases will take 78 to 80 grains scooped in full to the top
something doesnt compute here ?
in winchester brass ....68grains through a drop tube + 40 thou wad + 3/16" to 1/4" compression + 535 grain boolit

[Milky Duck]

a smaller case..like 223 will tamp it down easily....put it in in 2 lots of 35grns...and poke the 2nd lot down through the funnel with a skinny wee stick....I can get 65grns of my home rolled stuff which IN THEORY takes up more room than commercial stuff....
pleased indian joe beat me to it...the hornady cases are about 1/8th inch shorter...I use them for my smokeless loads.

[GregLaROCHE]

Been there, tried to do it too many times without success. Don’t even think of using a grease cookie. I tried a 3’ drop tube and compacting plug. I could never get 70 grains in without the overall length being to long for most modern type guns. I have come to believe that the original 45/70s had a much longer throat and the original boolits were seated at the very end of the brass.
Now I load between 50-60 grains of BP with a card and a grease cookie.

[Nobade]

With the right tools it is no problem to duplicate the original trapdoor load using 70 gr 2f Swiss and the Lee 458-405-HB. A drop tube and compression die will set the powder height right where it needs to be. And no, the trapdoor does not have a throat at all, just a bevel on the start of the rifling just like the SAAMI 45-70 chamber does.

My normal 45-70 paper patch loads use 81 grains of 1.5F and that fits in Starline cases with .100" to spare by using a drop tube.

[bigted]

Just follow the leaders example, you will have full loads in no time. Fellers like Don Mcdowell and Nobade will never steer you wrong concerning BPCR rifles and loads. These fellers and a few that have gone over the divide have tought me by example and advice more than I can recall.

Yes 70 grains is not only possible but in good Winchester cases I have dropped up to 80 grains as has been mentioned above. I have compressed 38-55 cases with 55 grains of 2F which is accomplished with much compression in order to seat Lymans 330 grain round nose, your compression should be less if you use an 8 inch up to a 24 inch drop tube to settle the grains prior to compressing. I also load 40 grains in new 45 Colt cases. No reason for not getting the old loads in modern cases.

Keep trying and listening to the leaders, you too will go far in this excellent addiction . Also Id say stick with real black powder ... it just works.

[Randy Bohannon]

Looking at the particulars from recent BPCR event in TX, was surprised to see the top 10 shooters were all using 45-70’s and not one was shooting over 69 grs of powder . Event was 800;900 and 1K yards.

[Deadeye Bly]

Your rifle will shoot just fine with 60 to 65 grains of black powder. No need to try to get 70 grains into the case. Try different loads and let the rifle tell you what is best.

[Larry Gibson]

I've loaded many a Winchester, Federal and Remington 45-70 cases with 70 gr of GOEX FFg, FFFg and Cartridge BP to replicate the M1873 and M1882 service loads. I don't use a drop tube, just throw the charge with a Lyman 55, Then a compression die (Lee expander die body with a flat faced plug) is used to compress the powder to the seating depth of of the bullet.

Yes, the powder is compressed into a solid mass as was the BP in the original service loads. The original 45-70 service rounds were not "balloon heads" but were inside primed with a Benet inside primer. Their capacity is very similar to Winchester cases. With such loads a strong magnum level primer is best to use. For complete information refer to Wolf Spence's book on replicating service 45-70 loads or my posts in;

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

[Nobade]

I've loaded many a Winchester, Federal and Remington 45-70 cases with 70 gr of GOEX FFg, FFFg and Cartridge BP to replicate the M1873 and M1882 service loads. I don't use a drop tube, just throw the charge with a Lyman 55, Then a compression die (Lee expander die body with a flat faced plug) is used to compress the powder to the seating depth of of the bullet.

Yes, the powder is compressed into a solid mass as was the BP in the original service loads. The original 45-70 service rounds were not "balloon heads" but were inside primed with a Benet inside primer. Their capacity is very similar to Winchester cases. With such loads a strong magnum level primer is best to use. For complete information refer to Wolf Spence's book on replicating service 45-70 loads or my posts in;

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

That is a very good book to read and really got me started with the Trapdoor rifle. And about the only place I have seen that explains how to use the Buffington sight.

[GregLaROCHE]

With the right tools it is no problem to duplicate the original trapdoor load using 70 gr 2f Swiss and the Lee 458-405-HB. A drop tube and compression die will set the powder height right where it needs to be. And no, the trapdoor does not have a throat at all, just a bevel on the start of the rifling just like the SAAMI 45-70 chamber does.

My normal 45-70 paper patch loads use 81 grains of 1.5F and that fits in Starline cases with .100" to spare by using a drop tube.

Maybe I need to try my drop tube again and try it with some Swiss powder. What was the overall length of those boolits?

[Milky Duck]

try poking the BP in through your funnel with a thin solid plastic rod...just keep poking it around and IT WILL FIT...if I can get 65grns of my non compressed homemade stuff...surely manufactured stuff will fit easier.

[FrankJD]

In fire formed Starline .45-70 brass I can 31" drop fill to the rim with 82 grains of Swiss 1-1/2F, push in a .060" LDPE wad, compress to .1", taper crimp in the PPB. :)

[Edward]

In fire formed Starline .45-70 brass I can 31" drop fill to the rim with 82 grains of Swiss 1-1/2F, push in a .060" LDPE wad, compress to .1", taper crimp in the PPB. :)

I do it too with O E 1 1/2 no problem ,he taught me ! /Ed

[craneman]

My match load is 83 gr Swiss 1.5 under a paper patch bullet. Slow poured through a 30" drop tube leaves enough room to seat a .060 ldpe wad then compress .080.
Fits easy and shoots well!
Todd

[John in PA]

Old balloon-head cases held 70 grains. Modern solid-head cases hold 55 grains, the carbine load.

I would have to disagree. The balloon head alters capacity by 3-4 grains max., easily overcome by use of a drop tube and compression die.

[Carrier]

I’ve had no issue getting 70 grains in a Winchester case loading as in Spencer’s book with either a 405 HB or 500 grain bullet. My 1873 trapdoor does have better accuracy with 60 to 65 grains of 2f.

[FrankJD]

There will be an interior volume difference between new, sized brass and fire formed brass, as well as different brand brass.

New brass gets annealed and loaded as is in order to fire form. Fire formed brass is for load development and matches, and it will take a larger charge of powder.

[Larry Gibson]

Keep in mind the original Government 45-70 load using 70 gr of "musket powder" was not loaded into balloon head cases. They were folde copper, then brass cases with an inside Benet' primer. The 70 gr charge was heavily compressed into a solid piece. Burns much more efficiently that way. Winchester cases have very close to the same internal capacity as the Benet' primed original 45-70 cases.

[M-Tecs]

Keep in mind the original Government 45-70 load using 70 gr of "musket powder" was not loaded into balloon head cases. They were folde copper, then brass cases with an inside Benet' primer. The 70 gr charge was heavily compressed into a solid piece. Burns much more efficiently that way. Winchester cases have very close to the same internal capacity as the Benet' primed original 45-70 cases.

That is an often overlook part of the equation. I have a fired one of those in my collection but it is in rough shape. It was found at Fort Snelling in St. Paul during some cable trenching.

The question that I have is with that much compression how is the burn rate effected since the powder is being crushed? I only dabble at BPCR but over compression has not been good for me in respect to accuracy.

[Winger Ed.]

I load a few just for the novelty of them. Not enough to get properly set up though.
I dump the charge through a regular powder funnel, then hold it onto the case mouth with one hand and thump it 5-6 times.
It settles on down into my RP brass.

[Road_Clam]

There is no for me to jam 70g of Goex 2f into a modern commercial case and achieve a needed seating depth of the typical 405 rnfp bullet . Ive tried a drop tube ive tried vibratory methods to help powder settling and bottom line in my experiences i can get about 65gr max and thats using a LOT of compression force .

[freakonaleash]

I just loaded some 45-70 yesterday. Easily able to get 68 grains in the case using 1997 vintage Goex 2FF and a 24" drop tube. Put a .030 wad on top then used the bullet to compress the load 1 band's worth to get it to the crimp groove. Really very little compression and no bullet deformation. Bullet was cast from 20-1. We'll see how they shoot today.

[2manyguns]

yrs back black powder was measured by volume rather than weight,,has that changed ??

[Don McDowell]

The only change is the internet myth about blackpowder being measured in volume... Read the old books, it's always been in grains or drams..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don you said a mouthful there old friend. A lot of Bad info in this thread. Some from folks that can’t make BP Shoot accurately. Yet pontificate like some world class marksman.

KW

[FrankJD]

For cartridge guns, BP is always weighed ... for traditional muzzleloaders, BP is (almost) always volume charged. YMMV, but it shouldn't. ;)

[longbow]

I have little knowledge of this subject but if I may I'd like to ask a question... if the powder is compressed to a near solid lump, what difference does granulation make? Why would FFg be preferrable to FFFg?

As Larry points out in post #30 the powder was compressed to a solid piece. I have to think that FFg granules are crushed in that process.

Please enlighten me!

Thanks,
Longbow

[FrankJD]

Let the gun decide the compression to employ. You may find out that ya don't need to make solid cakes of BP in the brass. That's what load development is all about. Coarser powder introduces a tad more air into the mix.

[Don McDowell]

I have little knowledge of this subject but if I may I'd like to ask a question... if the powder is compressed to a near solid lump, what difference does granulation make? Why would FFg be preferrable to FFFg?

As Larry points out in post #30 the powder was compressed to a solid piece. I have to think that FFg granules are crushed in that process.

Please enlighten me!

Thanks,
Longbow

Well it may or not be compressed to a solid plug. Having had a problem a time or two with cases loaded with a bunch of compression, the top is packed pretty hard, but the further you dig into the case the less compacted it is.
Like Rob said the amount of compression one needs to use will depend a whole bunch on what the rifle and target tell you.

[indian joe]

The only change is the internet myth about blackpowder being measured in volume... Read the old books, it's always been in grains or drams..

yes! thank you
grains is a weight measure

The people touting volume have missed the bit where the maker of the volume measure took a weighed charge, poured it into a tubular measure of some sort and scratched a mark on the outside that represented where the weighed charge filled the volume measure to OR they cut the tube (deer antler or whatever) to suit - whatever - somewhere back at the start was a weigh scale of some type.

Blackpowder being what it is, commercial density is consistent enough that most brands in most measures will weigh close enough to same that there is not a problem for volume loaders - however energy level of different brands is more variable (compare Wano to Swiss - or in the old days C&H to Goex)

At the level that Don and KW are shooting one grain likely makes a difference and it is extremely difficult to keep that level of accuracy with a volume measure (dipper scoop - pouring into a tube measure etc) --- yeah everybody knows they are doing better than that except put it on the scale and lets see!

[indian joe]

I have little knowledge of this subject but if I may I'd like to ask a question... if the powder is compressed to a near solid lump, what difference does granulation make? Why would FFg be preferrable to FFFg?

As Larry points out in post #30 the powder was compressed to a solid piece. I have to think that FFg granules are crushed in that process.

Please enlighten me!

Thanks,
Longbow

not crushed as much as you might think - dig out a few compressed charges carefully - grain structure is still there even in the heavily compressed part but deeper into the charge is much less squashed

[Don McDowell]

Joe, back in the 1800's they used apothecary scales, and converted the the apothecaries to grains weight. In one of the Sharps catalogs they took a whole page to explain where the best place to get a scale was, and even provided the chart to convert apothecaries to grains and drams. You have it exactly right about using a known charge weight to make a volume measure.
Kenny has also done an extensive amount of historical research into the ways of the Old Dead Guys, and maintains a huge library of historical reference.
Things really got bolloxed up in the 1970's when Pyrodex was introduced, and after Hogdon bought the rights to Pyrodex it got sort of straightened out to the point that they put in their little reloading handbooks a chart that explained how it was intended to be used in a blackpowder volume measure, but provided the grain weight of the pyrodex compared to what a quality volume measure intended to be used with 2f blackpowder would weigh if that charge of Pyrodex was placed on a scale.
And no the big name American shooters back in the day did not use Curtis and Harvey, the equipment lists indicate they were fairly evenly split between Laughlin and Rand and Hazard powder, both American companies.

[indian joe]

Joe, back in the 1800's they used apothecary scales, and converted the the apothecaries to grains weight. In one of the Sharps catalogs they took a whole page to explain where the best place to get a scale was, and even provided the chart to convert apothecaries to grains and drams. You have it exactly right about using a known charge weight to make a volume measure.
Kenny has also done an extensive amount of historical research into the ways of the Old Dead Guys, and maintains a huge library of historical reference.
Things really got bolloxed up in the 1970's when Pyrodex was introduced, and after Hogdon bought the rights to Pyrodex it got sort of straightened out to the point that they put in their little reloading handbooks a chart that explained how it was intended to be used in a blackpowder volume measure, but provided the grain weight of the pyrodex compared to what a quality volume measure intended to be used with 2f blackpowder would weigh if that charge of Pyrodex was placed on a scale.
And no the big name American shooters back in the day did not use Curtis and Harvey, the equipment lists indicate they were fairly evenly split between Laughlin and Rand and Hazard powder, both American companies.

Don I did the apothecary scale thing when I first started !
At age 15 I bought a 32/20, scouted out a winchester bullet mold and tong tool - no idea where I got the load info but I remember it was "shotgun Ballistite" a buddy of my dad was a shotgun reloader so I got some from him - there was an older gent had a prescription pharmacy in town so I headed there with my info
and he did what you describe above, converted my info and weighed me a sample load, I treated that little sample like it was gold until I got a dip measure made from it - ballistite not the ideal powder and we couldnt get a decent reliable crimp with the old tong tools so a couple years in I got my Dad to bring home some Black powder from the city - local made "Musket Brand" in yellow plastic bottles - he walked on a DC3 at the airport in Sydney with 5 pounds of it in his carry on bag - imagine !!
The 32/20 got shelved for a good few years as I went high power smokeless so when I fell into muzzleloader shooting in my 40's - there was three pound or more of that "Musket Powder" left - in the meantime we had gathered a couple pounds of C & H at farm yard sales - proly stuff leftover from between the wars (or earlier) I guess. So had the opportunity to shoot some of it compared to the Red and white can Goex we got in the 1990 period. I would say the C & H definitely a cleaner burning powder but needed at least 10 % more to get the job done - shot a lot of GoEx but it was all stuff made before the Moosic plant blew in the early 1990's - we used to buy ungraphited 5FA in bulk bags from the fireworks place (I stashed a heap of that but Howards fireworks plant blew just after Moosic went up)

From what the boys write here I doubt if GoEx ever got back to the quality they were making in that Moosic plant (maybe did it with Old Eynsford)

(I guess I must have been talkin my old days there not true olden days - yup I have a couple old boolit boxes with those OLD powder brands on the label and also a pre ww1 winchester catalog ) -- We have come far in a short time and not really gotten anywhere much eh?

[SteveOKo922]

I compress 70g of 2f the full seating depth of a .458 405g bullet for a trapdoor. I DOES not "burn like a cigarette" like Mr caps lock says. In fact, the recoil and report is significantly sharper and works very well in my Trapdoor rifle and carbine.

[Don McDowell]

Joe I hire most of us that spend a ton of time shooting bpcr have almost got back to where we know purtneart as much as a 15 year old from the 1880’s about it ����

[M-Tecs]

I compress 70g of 2f the full seating depth of a .458 405g bullet for a trapdoor. I DOES not "burn like a cigarette" like Mr caps lock says. In fact, the recoil and report is significantly sharper and works very well in my Trapdoor rifle and carbine.

Back in the early 70's I fired some arsenal loaded 45/70's from the 1880's. A couple of primers didn't ignite so we pulled the bullets out of the cases. The powder was a solid chunk. At the time we believed that was due to the age of the cases. Looking back it was compression related not age related. Every heavily compressed load I have fired was very robust.

[Gunlaker]

I think the "burn like a cigarette" idea came from Paul Matthews. At least that's where I heard it first. I don't know why he said that.
Anyone who's ever shot heavily compressed loads know that's not true at all. Or they have some pretty fast burning cigarettes :-)

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Getting 80 or 82 grains of 1.5 or 2f Swiss in a .45-70 case is not a problem and it shoots well when using a PP bullet seated shallow on a .06 wad.
But when using a GG bullet say like a postell to chamber the round it needs a lot of compression and this might cause a problem bulging the case wall.
The pictures below settled my curiosity what different levels of compression does to the powder. Starting on the left top to bottom I started with .050" of compression with the top and from there on I went with .100".
.050", .100, .200, .300, .400 and .500"
.500" in a .45-70 case will make a solid mass of powder top to bottom.
Using the Goex powder compression was needed to get a clean burn and I think the heavy compression that solid plug of unburned powder scraped the bore. Shooting over snow you will find unburned powder and also there is a point shooting over the chronograph you will see the velocity decrease when the compression increases but I have never seen a point where the velocity leveled off, it just slowed after a point of compression.
Loading any caliber black powder cartridge GG or PP accuracy comes usually with a minimum compression with a good grade of powder. 1150 FPS will reach 1000 yards in fine shape using a .45-70.
If you feel you need to get 80 grains in a .45-70 case to reach 1000 yards get a .45-90 :D

306573306574306575

[indian joe]

Back in the early 70's I fired some arsenal loaded 45/70's from the 1880's. A couple of primers didn't ignite so we pulled the bullets out of the cases. The powder was a solid chunk. At the time we believed that was due to the age of the cases. Looking back it was compression related not age related. Every heavily compressed load I have fired was very robust.

I second that last bit!

[indian joe]

Getting 80 or 82 grains of 1.5 or 2f Swiss in a .45-70 case is not a problem and it shoots well when using a PP bullet seated shallow on a .06 wad.
But when using a GG bullet say like a postell to chamber the round it needs a lot of compression and this might cause a problem bulging the case wall.
The pictures below settled my curiosity what different levels of compression does to the powder. Starting on the left top to bottom I started with .050" of compression with the top and from there on I went with .100".
.050", .100, .200, .300, .400 and .500"
.500" in a .45-70 case will make a solid mass of powder top to bottom.
Using the Goex powder compression was needed to get a clean burn and I think the heavy compression that solid plug of unburned powder scraped the bore. Shooting over snow you will find unburned powder and also there is a point shooting over the chronograph you will see the velocity decrease when the compression increases but I have never seen a point where the velocity leveled off, it just slowed after a point of compression.
Loading any caliber black powder cartridge GG or PP accuracy comes usually with a minimum compression with a good grade of powder. 1150 FPS will reach 1000 yards in fine shape using a .45-70.
If you feel you need to get 80 grains in a .45-70 case to reach 1000 yards get a .45-90 :D

306573306574306575

ok question for ya.
a W A G would proly be fun but I figure its likely you've done the work or at least have a good theory
here goes ...as we move forward from that "sweet spot" of best accuracy (forward meaning increasing compression) what exactly is lost? does the E S widen out? that would be a sure sign of poor / inconsistent burning - my initial thought is if we can hold that low spread / consistent velocity and keep projectile integrity the sweet spot should hold ???
OR are we talking about some kind of vibratory physics like playing harmonics on a guitar?

Most of my blackpowder analysis has been done chasing accuracy out of round ball guns - I have picked up a lot of patches in my day - to the point I will use different cloth or put dye in my moose milk lube so I can find mine on the range anytime I like

Cartridge guns I have pretty much got lucky - or fell into the sweet spot - (in later years) - if I am diligently careful with the loading process seems like I can get spread numbers low (single digit E S on several occasions) and gun + load combos that leave me as the weak link in the chain - at almost 74 - I do not have the eyesight + hold ability to shoot MOA with a tang sight. 2 MOA I can do - 1.5 on rare occasions.

Stubborness saw me put in a lot of work early days - eventually I found decent lube carrying boolits - and figured out the blow tube - but a lot of fine tuning has come from reading and discussing here.
Just be interested on your take of my original question

[Brimstone]

Lead Pot this is what I call a gold nugget. Nicely done.

[Lead pot]

Joe,
I have 9 years on you :D and my eyes have had some very bad damage. I still can hold my own but it takes a lot longer looking through the sights to get what I think is a good center hold :D

I don't like to work on speculation on what is happening when a bullet goes astray. I jokingly blame Henry that little gremlin playing games down range with me :D
Black powder the ES and SD are a lot lower than smokeless powder and I get baffled when I have a load with an ES that might get up to 23 fps and this will throw a shot out of a group several inches that I might not see with an ES three times as bad in my bolt rifles but the holes on paper are a lot closer.
I feel your right with the vibratory physics like playing harmonics on a guitar being that little gremlin. Years back I shot some bench rest and played with barrel dampers (what was called barrel donuts) I could change the impact of the groups by just sliding it forward or back that would open the group or close it.
The barrels on our powder rifles are a lot longer than the smokeless rifles that would make that wave more pronounced but again this is speculation that I don't like using but I can see when I have a cross stick mounted tight to a bench and base behind the buttstock for a good solid rest and the null marked on the barrel so I can hold the same spot on these very narrow stick I use the group will open up by just a slight hold on the front rest holding the same down pressure on the rifle with holding less than 10 fps ES. I have checked this out many times.
These rifles shooting black powder with different compressions find more than one amount of compression where the groups tighten but all in all the least amount of compression I find is more consistent then to much.

I will work with case prep just as much as compression tuning a good load. Case prep along with compression wakes a good load.
One or two grains of bullet weight is not going to change the verticals as much as how much as the friction the bullet has on the case neck or the inside volume of the shell raising the chamber pressure.

As far as front stuffers :D I lean against a tree and let er fly and drag the meat out. never worried about harmonics :D

[indian joe]

Joe,
I have 9 years on you :D and my eyes have had some very bad damage. I still can hold my own but it takes a lot longer looking through the sights to get what I think is a good center hold :D

that dont seem to work for me - the longer I peer through the sights the fuzzier it seems to get - If I look away at some green grass seems to clear it but I get a lot of comments about getting them away quick - just seems like the longer I take the harder it is to see clear. With my offhand ML when I mount it to shoot the sights will be clear and the thing will hang steady right dead centre for just a bit - trouble is I never mastered getting it away smooth while it was steady and centred - if you read stories of Daniel Boone shooting his matches you will get exactly what I mean here

I don't like to work on speculation on what is happening when a bullet goes astray. I jokingly blame Henry that little gremlin playing games down range with me :D

Yeah Henry has a lot to answer for if we ever can ketch him

Black powder the ES and SD are a lot lower than smokeless powder and I get baffled when I have a load with an ES that might get up to 23 fps and this will throw a shot out of a group several inches that I might not see with an ES three times as bad in my bolt rifles but the holes on paper are a lot closer.

Do you reckon that is just because of our loopy trajectory or ?

I feel your right with the vibratory physics like playing harmonics on a guitar being that little gremlin. Years back I shot some bench rest and played with barrel dampers (what was called barrel donuts) I could change the impact of the groups by just sliding it forward or back that would open the group or close it.

yeah what tuned me up on that issue was a mate and i spot shooting foxes for money back in the '70's, he had a jeep truck that he took the windscreen glasses out (split windscreen) and replaced with perspex hinged at the bottom so we could tool along the track and not freeze, then just push the perspex screen down to shoot - he had rigged a padded bar across to rest his rifle on, (bare barrel about where you would rest off of sticks) we both had 22/250 winchester 70's with good glass and well tuned, mine was a sporter, his 26" bull barrel, I ran the light, he drove and shot his side and the front, if there was a cat (lots of huge feral cats in that country, they wouldnt come to the bait but would set still out a couple hundred yards) I shot the cats and any foxes out the passenger side - most of the foxes were shot 70 to 100 yards on a bait we dragged but you had to be quick or they would bolt into the brush (this is desert country - sparse grass and saltbush/ bluebush shrubbery) anyway old mate would slam the window down, hit the brakes, throw the rifle up and miss a standing shot most times, then he would slam another round home, and flatten that fox about as he hit full stride into the scrub (he was an amazing instinctive shot on running game) - so one night I took a shot at a closer cat off the rest bar - clean miss - couldnt understand that (cats will sit in the light if you not too close - plenty of time for the shot) missed but the wheels started to turn in my brain. Next afternoon I went for a sight in session in the jeep while he was off doing other stuff - and you guessed it my rifle hit 12 inches high at 100 yards off that padded bar - I didnt say anything but watched him shoot that night - that first shot he usually missed he would take almost one handed off the bar then the running shot was always gun in hand and off the bar. I have been really leery of a rested barrel ever since that time - have shot off cross sticks enough times but I will not do it without a practice session at home first - dont seem to matter much with a frontloader - more meat in the barrel and lower stress levels I guess - that bolt gun was a sporter barrel and free floated and it messed up big - I never rested a smokeless barrel since that day - always hold the gun and rest my hand, arm, knuckles -part of me between the wood and the rest.

The barrels on our powder rifles are a lot longer than the smokeless rifles that would make that wave more pronounced but again this is speculation that I don't like using but I can see when I have a cross stick mounted tight to a bench and base behind the buttstock for a good solid rest and the null marked on the barrel so I can hold the same spot on these very narrow stick I use the group will open up by just a slight hold on the front rest holding the same down pressure on the rifle with holding less than 10 fps ES. I have checked this out many times.
These rifles shooting black powder with different compressions find more than one amount of compression where the groups tighten but all in all the least amount of compression I find is more consistent then to much.
I am using my own made powder - unable to get full commercial density in it but it will take more compression before it gets "hard", I use a single stage (non compound) press for my compression die - like to be able to feel whats going on there and I have a luggage scale I use to measure effort applied to the handle - its another number to use in comparisons. (Quite interesting when i reference back to commercial powder)

I will work with case prep just as much as compression tuning a good load. Case prep along with compression wakes a good load.

We differ here too (though maybe not so much) I match my brass at the start, dont do the bench rester stuff like primer pockets and etc, but I will not resize my accurate brass - absolutely detest commercial resizing dies, once I get it fully fireformed if stuff gets a little sticky chambering I will test and identify the sticky spot - go make a die on the lathe to take care of the problem, if theres a bulge at the solid head/ wall juncture all it takes is a touch and it chambers sweet again, same for neck/shoulder areas. Italian barrels = fat boolits - both 45's get .460 resized - dont have much neck clearance in the chamber so no neck sizing - just light crimp and off we go.

One or two grains of bullet weight is not going to change the verticals as much as how much as the friction the bullet has on the case neck or the inside volume of the shell raising the chamber pressure.

Thats interesting - thanks

As far as front stuffers :D I lean against a tree and let er fly and drag the meat out. never worried about harmonics :D

I dont hunt these days - killed a lot of critters over the years we thought needed it at the time - ferals yeah anytime anyplace

[Lead pot]

Joe,
That was what I was getting at when I said it takes me a little longer to find center. My eyes gray out and I need to look past my sights and get back into the sights.
The reason your mate is such a good instinctive shot came from him carrying his rifle with barrel sights through the bush and he learned from the snap shots he took when he jumped the game.

When you make your powder to get more density you need to go to a farmer that still milks cows or pastures his cattle and go to the manure pile that has been stacked over the winter or find the cow chips in the pasture and collect that white stuff and use it. That is the purest potassium nitrate :D and when you wet mix the components put a pinch of sugar in it. :D done that when I was a kid LOL.
Making the coal right is what makes the powder. I used a 4" pipe about two feet long with threaded caps and drill just two 1/8" holes through the pipe, one on each end to let the gas out and use indirect heat to cure the wood.

[indian joe]

Joe,
That was what I was getting at when I said it takes me a little longer to find center. My eyes gray out and I need to look past my sights and get back into the sights.

ahh - got ya

The reason your mate is such a good instinctive shot came from him carrying his rifle with barrel sights through the bush and he learned from the snap shots he took when he jumped the game.

more to that story - they lived on a sheep property in the hills with rabbits an ongoing problem his dad was the station hand /worker -- boss drove a nice car and "had money" - boss paid ole mate a shilling per dead bunny (10 cents now dont seem much but in 1950's handy pocket money for a kid) -- second part of the deal was mumma bought the bullets and let him carry her little Browning trombone / pump action - by the time I knew him we were early teens - we'd walk the broken ground of the sheep pastures - short grass - lotsa rocks - broken dead timber - when a bunny broke cover he would be close in but goin full lick for his burrow - darting and weaving - he rarely missed one - three shots at the worst. Cancer got him a good while back but we partnered at a big ML shoot and took out the Seneca Run (so called) it was more properly a walk through obstacle course shoot we were both past 40 and off doin other stuff but that time hangin out in the bush as youngsters came back without any effort at all, we cruised it and left some pissed off competitive dudes in our wake too :D to top it off I won the knife throw with a technique I had been playing with at home - looked pretty arrogant - I would just stroll up to the line with my bowie in its sheath, pull it and throw on the last step - put the first one almost dead centre in the block an hear behind me " who's this A$$@%le think he is" that was kinda fun. - me an ole mate had some good times, wasted a lot of ammo trying to do trick stuff with lever guns


When you make your powder to get more density you need to go to a farmer that still milks cows or pastures his cattle and go to the manure pile that has been stacked over the winter or find the cow chips in the pasture and collect that white stuff and use it. That is the purest potassium nitrate :D and when you wet mix the components put a pinch of sugar in it. :D done that when I was a kid LOL.
Making the coal right is what makes the powder. I used a 4" pipe about two feet long with threaded caps and drill just two 1/8" holes through the pipe, one on each end to let the gas out and use indirect heat to cure the wood.

Re the powder - pretty happy with what its doing - willow coal - clean burning - good velocity - low ES in my proper rifles - getting about 93% density compared to Goex 5FA and despite the few grains less weight, equal velocity in cases. If I feel like playing with some might try that sugar trick tho