never loaded for 45-70 questions and wonderings

[oley55]

edit: I was way confused about the weapon. It is actually a Henry H010B, not a Marlin.

A friend of mine has a Marlin 45-70 he uses for hunting and I have offered to introduce him to reloading for it. I have never seen the rifle and do not know squat about it. Waiting now for a response from him whether it is an 1895CB or other.

Not being a Marlin guy and only going from what I have read in passing, if it's not a CB then it probably has micro-grooves and is not a good candidate for castboolits. True or false?

Are Marlin barrels all over the place and slugging a must, or can I make some general assumptions? My common sense tells me, assume equals "ass of u and me" and I need to pound cast the chamber with a fired case and have something to load from/to.

Per conversations with him, he is worried about reloading his once fired factory brass. From my cursory review of google searches, if FL sized with a little common sense (sized a thou or two below chamber dimensions) the brass should last MANY firings and is not unlike straight walled pistol cases (357/44 mag). i.e. they shoot until the necks start splitting. True or False?

I know some pretty lame wonderings, but as usual our search engine here is limited. i.e. "45-70" nets zero/nothing found. So what do I add to that search parameter that doesn't produce hundreds on completely non-related results?

[Tazman1602]

You should be fine, I have several Marlin 45-70’s, none of which are CB’s nor do they have microgroove. Not certain if any 45-70’s were MG or not, mine are not.

If you’re not playing speed demon with them brass should be good for many loadings, I don’t like much over 1300fps as 500gr bullets at *about* that speed just about exstincted the bisons in US.

Get a common mold, Lyman, RCBS, etc cast and lube/size. Mine are sized to .4595 as that’s .001 over what my barrels slug at. Keep it simple, if you don’t want to go to the trouble of casting/sizing/slugging there are lots of places you can buy .459 cast and lubed and/or coated — they work fine on mine if I get lazy and are as accurate as my old eyes at 100yds — shooting 1,000yds is an entirely different story.

Hope this helped you out a bit…..

Art

[Winger Ed.]

Not sure what weight of boolit you intend to use,
but anything over 350 grains is not for the meek and faint of heart.

I shoot a 405 in mine that casts out closer to 420 in a Marlin CB.
It took me a little while to figure out which end of it is more dangerous than the other.

[Tazman1602]

Here’s a couple I have used successfully:

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lbt-410gr-fn-pb/

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-300gr-fn-pb/

Take a look.

Art

[PositiveCaster]

Some older Marlins had MG but more recent ones do not. I currently own four .45-70s and shoot cast in all of them. Even 500 grain bullets can have low recoil - depending on the charge - today I prefer cast bullets between 350 and 420 grains at velocities between 1100 and 1300 fps. You don’t have to load up to the Marlin-level max loads just because you load for a Marlin…

I’ve been using some of my .45-70 brass for over 40 years, more with jacketed loads than with mild cast.



.

[725]

YMMV, but if you load in the trap door levels with a 350 - 400 grain boolit, not only will it not be overly painful but will be very deadly on game. Medium hardness even moving toward softer alloys will be great. Brass life depends on how hot you load it. Annealing will go a long way toward extending brass life.

[Tazman1602]

Even 500 grain bullets can have low recoil - depending on the charge - today I prefer cast bullets between 350 and 420 grains at velocities between 1100 and 1300 fps. You don’t have to load up to the Marlin-level max loads just because you load for a Marlin…

I’ve been using some of my .45-70 brass for over 40 years, more with jacketed loads than with mild cast.



.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^ all day long. You *may* have to trim brass back to length at some point but with the loads I shoot I’ve never had to ——- and RIGHT ON about the 500grain bullets and slower loads. I too prefer 300-405 grain cast or so.

Art

[mehavey]

Run a classic 405gr medium hardness (nothing above Brinell 15 -- wheel weights/10
is fine/even pure lead), at "cowboy" speeds (~1,200fps), and sized to .459 for Marlins.

https://s33.postimg.cc/d749jv8b3/45-70_Marlin_GBL_Lyman457193_AA5744_sm.jpg

Soft shooting/still kill anything on this continent.
Brass last forever.

[oley55]

thanks guys some really good info to ponder. I’m only half a day into thinking about this and I tend peel a lot of onions before I start. Would it be advisable to go with the slightly more expensive RCBS cowboy dies or go with NOE expanders. Don’t want to spend extra and then end up using NOE expanders.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

I know some pretty lame wonderings, but as usual our search engine here is limited. i.e. "45-70" nets zero/nothing found. So what do I add to that search parameter that doesn't produce hundreds on completely non-related results?
The website's search functions has issues. I won't go into details, but I can suggest an alternative.
Use Google, then type "site:castboolits.gunloads.com" after your key words.
I'd try these keywords:
45-70 basics
45-70 new to reloading
45-70 loads
45-70 Marlin

[mehavey]

Get regular die set (RCBS or Lyman)
plus....
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/225/1/LEE-DIE-45-EX
and a 458 expander plug
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/239/1/DIE-458-EXP

[RickinTN]

Partial sizing of the brass also works wonders in the 45-70. I size about half way down the case which gives me about .002" neck tension. Along with a mild crimp this works well. I had Tom at Accurate molds cut me a 365 grain gas checked mold with his "Marlin" nose. I size to .460" and haven't had an issue in 4 45-70's. My alloy is half/half clip on wheel weights and pure with a touch of tin. A little over 9 bhn. So far 12 grains of Unique works very well and is no problem to shoot recoil wise.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Harter66]

The 45-70 can be as exotic or boring as you want it to be . I have moulds in .458-.461 at 255 , 380 , 385 , 415 (405) , 417 (420) , 530 (500) , and 535 gr . Of those so far the 405 gr 458193 has been the most alloy , powder , load level flexible bullet .

I shoot an 1895 G 2010 built by Rem in Illion from Marlin parts . It's 6 right 1-20 .

I've loaded a 255 gr cast plain base to 2000 fps mostly to prove I could . I won't do that again .

The 462-420 MP with HB pins at 380 and solid at 417 gr wants to be pushed hard . I don't like it . Pushing hard that is I may soften it up some and try again.

45-500 FN RCBS this is the short nose specifically for the Marlin and gas checked it's all but a WC with about a .450 long nose and a .300+ meplat I haven't shot it yet but data is available from the RCBS cast book . Ken Waters used 4831 in several 45-70 loads arriving with unburnt powder safe for Trapdoor rifles . Mine delivered a bullet of 530 gr .

Based on my time in 12-15 gr of Unique under most bullets will give something within Trapdoor levels .

Either of the 500/535s , the other is an NOE version of the 458132 Postell with an 1100 fps MV will shoot about 8" high with a 150 zero and about 14" low at 200 yd with 1000 ftlb on hand past 300 yd .

405s and 500s have killed everything in North America several times with MVs below 1500 fps .

I have as much 10 cycles on PPU brass from 405 jacketed CIP rated factory ammo.

I have a set of RCBS dies , a loose RCBS sizer that was opened for a particular rifle and a Redding sizer that hits about 3/4" at the base and a 1/2" at the neck w/a matching seating die . I like the Redding dies fine but I don't see the $50 difference between them and the RCBS .

If you have a spare SWC seating plug compatible with your seater it's not a bad thing .

The Hornady Lever evolution brass is short but doesn't have any detremintal effects other than needing the Hornady seater or the optional Lee crimp die to crimp . Otherwise it no more trouble than 38s in a 357.

3031 seems to be the darling powder ....... I don't have any . I had a can about 15 years ago. H322 worked for that hot load .

Don't be disappointed with 3" groups . I know a top shelf gunsmith that spent a lot of time with 3 barrels and configurations and 2,000+ rounds to conclude 3" is about as good as it gets with a lever action 45-70 for 10 shot groups .

Paper patch was fun and rewarding . I worried about the deep seated 458132 slamming that front band after I started moving.
The deal with that bullet is that it can be single loaded but once the extractor slips the rim it fire it or pull the bolt .

If you have a selection of 250+ gr pistol bullets paper patch a few . The case is .2 longer than the 460 S&W and fatter the Marlin will take 34kpsi all day and most of the 460 data I've seen is held to about 40 kpsi ..... Just a thought to think .

[oley55]

well crud, I was way off target on this project. For reasons unknown, I was certain his rifle was a Marlin, it's NOT!!

It's a Henry and he has been shooting ammo from Precision One, Trapdoor 350gr, 1350fps. From a pic they appear to be copper plated. I'll probably start a new thread after I get my thoughts together.

Thanks again for your help...Oley

[Harter66]

That's about the middle of the road for Trapdoor levels. Pretty easy to hit with Unique.

I forgot about the Lee 458-340 . That sounds like it's exactly where you want to go .

[softpoint]

I have all of the RCBS molds, all of the Lee offerings, both Ranchdog 350 and 425 grain, two Lyman molds and a 525 grain NEI mold for my Browning BPCR. I have The only trouble i have had with any of the molds at lower velocity loadings is the RCBS 500 grain. It is made for the lever actions, but it won't stabilize in any of my Marlins at less than about 1400 fps. Bump it up to about 1450-1500, it's a fine shooter, but it's kind of a waste of horsepower and alloy on Texas deer and pigs, and has pretty curved trajectory as well.

[oley55]

That's about the middle of the road for Trapdoor levels. Pretty easy to hit with Unique.

I forgot about the Lee 458-340 . That sounds like it's exactly where you want to go .

Looking at three different Lyman manuals I can only find Unique load data for 400+ grain bullets. Nothing listed for 340/350gr. Alliance doesn't provide any Unique 45-70 data: https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=3

I am fer sure willing to use/try Unique since my available (on hand) powder options are limited to Varget with published data for 330-350gr bullets, and 4227 for heavier bullets.

edit: I found this load data: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm but max 12gr only generates 1097fps. Not sure if that may be too slow for my friends purposes. Since I will likely PC his bullets (50/50 COWW/Soft) should work just fine.

edit2: and then I found this discussion: https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/unique-powder-for-45-70-target-loads.154148/ where two or three folks are going on about "detonation" issues in the large 45-70 cases. Now I am worrying about adding a wad or not. I think the scary stories were more likely from double charges, but helping a newbe makes me ultra cautious. But I worry more about ringing a barrel with wadding than the detonation horror stories (or is it fillers that can ring a barrel?). I can feel myself getting wrapped around the axle here.

[Rapier]

Oley,
Your deer size is the same as ours, mostly small. So nothing the 45-70 puts out will not do. I have a few big bores inclding a couple 45-70s. Just for the fun of having and shooting them.
Unique is best, but hard to find, you can use 5744, R-7, 4227. No reason to use bullets above 300-400 grains. Forget the trapdoor loads, the trapdoor action is too weak to put much into it, so the Marlin goes lacking with trapdoor loads.
Make sure you slug that barrel, size to the groove diameter. My bullets are cast with very hard 70, 20, 10 alloy, water dropped about 23 bh. Well over 2 k fps. I use LBT blue or rooster red. Seat and light crimp to straight, as two steps. Full length size then trim and expand the mouth.
Good luck.

[GregLaROCHE]

In the past, 3031 was my go to powder for many rifle calibers. Maybe things have changed and other powders are as good or better today. I wish it was easy to buy 3031 over here. The powders specialized for 45/70 burn too slow and I never get complete burn. I have experimented with faster powder that works for me, but I will never forget 3031.

[mehavey]

Forget the trapdoor loads...A "trapdoor load" w/ soft bullet will kill anything on this Continent.
... and has.

For medium game, trap door is point-blank/chest cavity out to 150 yards -- even w/ a heavy/slow 405gr
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6758119&postcount=28

[BLAHUT]

In my gide gun. Bear gun. I use lee 515 gr, fn, c57-500f, .457, ol 2.55, 27 gr 5744, works great in action, hits like a locmotive, takes bear off of feet. Load is very accutate for me.