Small rifle primers for small pistol applications

[Blazin]

I use small rifle primers in my 40 S&W for competition shooting, been doing so for years without problems and with great accuracy. Yet when I load anything else (i.e. 38 Special) I use the appropriate small pistol primer.

Does anyone have a good reason for me not to use small rifle primers in all my small pistol applications? Do you think a small rifle primer would be an ideal replacement for small pistol magnum primers?

I appreciate the advice.

[Willbird]

I suppose SOME guns may not pop them reliably ?? Esp rem 7-1/2. My Pistolsmith uses rem 7-1/2's to test a DA trigger job to make sure it has enough wack, however many DA slicked revolvers will still fail to fire even small pistols now and then.

[Mugs]

I've used Rem. 71/2's in all my small primer use for years with no problems. It solves a lot of ignition problems when using ball powders.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[Lloyd Smale]

If youve shot them that long without problems i wouldnt worry about it.

[mag_01]

I had problems using them in a colt python - some would fire and some would not:coffee: - mag

[44man]

In a revolver, the additional pressure without additional heat can drive a bullet into the forcing cone or barrel before the powder starts a good burn. Pressure then hits the stuck bullet all at once and only the cylinder gap saves your gun and hands. Most revolvers also have mainsprings too weak and hang fires or complete failures to fire are common.
Why do some of you test fate? Some of you scare me. For God's sake, use a pistol primer. I would never use a SR in an auto either.

[Mugs]

I first started using the Rem. 71/2's when I had hangfires with Fed.205's in 7 BR's with 748 powder. Then in the 357 Max/SM in TC's and Dan Wesson revolver, which called for SR primers. I continued using them in heavy 357 loads. Never had a hangfire since.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[MT Gianni]

I have a 357 load labelled BLACKHAWK ONLY that is supposed to use sr primers. All others get the proper primer and I don't shoot the blackhawk only much.

[Willbird]

In a revolver, the additional pressure without additional heat can drive a bullet into the forcing cone or barrel before the powder starts a good burn. Pressure then hits the stuck bullet all at once and only the cylinder gap saves your gun and hands. Most revolvers also have mainsprings too weak and hang fires or complete failures to fire are common.
Why do some of you test fate? Some of you scare me. For God's sake, use a pistol primer. I would never use a SR in an auto either.

Some guns and situations call for the "rifle" primer. 357 maximum is one of them, 500 S&W is another example (the primer pockets are even cut for large rifle primers NOT large pistol). Also loading 38 super to major power factor is yet another one.

I'd like to see one single documented case of a small rifle primer in a pistol case causing a problem.

Bill

[lmcollins]

I have a Whitetail Design carbide primer pocket uniformer for small rifle primers. I uniform the pockets for my 221 Fireball that I built on short 700 action. I think that when i bought it Dick Wright told me that the demensions i.e. height of a small rifle and a pistol primer were different. Measure the hieght of the cup to make certain that you are seating below the case head. I'd hate to get some type of slam fire. Just a for what it's worth thought. Also, you could call CCI or someone like that and ask their advise. Probably OK as long as you have the "wump" to set them off.

[44man]

I never used a SR primer in the .357 max. Yes the large calibers like the .500 have enough space in the case to absorb pressure while the powder lights. The LR primer also has heat.
I have personally had to pound 3 boolits out of a revolver barrel when the powder completely failed to light when using SR primers. One was 2" up the bore. Lots of pressure and no fire! I would hate to see what would happen if the powder decided to light off at that point. Imagine someone shooting real fast double action! [smilie=1:
I use LP mag primers in the .475 Linebaugh and 45-70 revolvers and I use standard LP primers in the .44 and .45.
Substituting SR primers in a case calling for SP primers is not my way to look for trouble. That is what the man asked about, not about those cases that call for the SR primer. Even with those, I hesitate if the cases are small or too large also, like the .454.
Time has a way of catching up. I shot 47 gr of 4831 in my Swede for years with super accuracy. Then one day it froze up. I had to use a mallet to beat the bolt open. The primer was GONE??? The primer pocket would hold two side by side. No damage to the rifle. Several weeks later my friend had the same thing happen to his with the same load. This is a highly touted load for the gun, called one of the best. Need I explain S.E.E. to you fellas?
Ask me if I would recommend it? :roll:
I now use Varget!
I will not tell anyone it is OK to use SR primers in place of SP primers either. There are some things I get awful stubborn about.

[Willbird]

44man the rem 7-1/2 is the PROPER primer for the 357 maximum. This was determined by the mfg. and designer of the cartridge.

You did not state what caliber your "Swede" is but 47 grains of 4831 in 6.5x55 is a compressed load in many cases, and H4831 is recommended by Hogdon for every bullet weight except 85 grains.

S.E.E. is from a case only partially filled, say 50% loading density, if you had a pressure excursion at 47 grains it was NOT S.E.E. I cannot see how going to a FASTER powder which does not fill the case nearly as well was somehow safer ?

Small pistol and small rifle primers use the same pocket, large pistol and large rifle do not, the large rifle primer pocket is deeper than large pistol.

Some folks were talking of using small pistol primers for softer ignition in rifle cases with cast bullets, but lo and behold they found out that the small rifle and small pistol primers they were using had the same explosive material and qty in them, only the cup thickness was different. This no doubt differs from brand to brand.

Bill

[Bret4207]

I tend to use the proper size primer, but- there was a test a few years back on primer power or "briscience" (sp?). The differences in power even between different makes, much less different types was astounding! IIRC there were SR with less power than SP, LR with more than Mag and similar reports across the range of tested primers.

Sometimes I think the more we know the less we learn.

[44man]

44man the rem 7-1/2 is the PROPER primer for the 357 maximum. This was determined by the mfg. and designer of the cartridge.

You did not state what caliber your "Swede" is but 47 grains of 4831 in 6.5x55 is a compressed load in many cases, and H4831 is recommended by Hogdon for every bullet weight except 85 grains.

S.E.E. is from a case only partially filled, say 50% loading density, if you had a pressure excursion at 47 grains it was NOT S.E.E. I cannot see how going to a FASTER powder which does not fill the case nearly as well was somehow safer ?

Small pistol and small rifle primers use the same pocket, large pistol and large rifle do not, the large rifle primer pocket is deeper than large pistol.

Some folks were talking of using small pistol primers for softer ignition in rifle cases with cast bullets, but lo and behold they found out that the small rifle and small pistol primers they were using had the same explosive material and qty in them, only the cup thickness was different. This no doubt differs from brand to brand.

Bill
OOPS, my mistake, I went to my book and we were using 46 gr of 4831 and I went to 47 to prevent the problem. I still did not trust the load so went to Varget. These loads were for the 129 gr Hornady. Yes, faster powder prevents S.E.E. That is exactly what it was with the long throat of the Swede. If I had a new 6.5 X 55, with a short throat, I would probably still be using 4831. Even a heavier bullet would have prevented it. As near as we can tell, the bullet left the neck and stopped at the rifling when the full pressure came on.
I didn't have any Rem 7-1/2 primers and was using CCI 450's. I borrowed some WW. One of the stuck boolits was with one of them. When I get a "POP" with a case full of 296, it makes me sit up and take notice. A few gr of powder had a color change and that was all. First time in 55 years of loading I have experienced anything like this.
I have used standard primers in the .44 with 296 since about 1960 and get 3X better accuracy then any mag primer ever gave me. Not once in 6 or 7 .44's and hundreds of thousands of loads have any ever had a problem. My SBH has 59,000 loads through it with standard primers plus uncounted loads with mag primers. I test them with every new boolit and in every test, groups are much larger.
Yes, there is a vast difference in primer brands, the pressure and heat they put out. Look at load info for shotshells! You MUST use the primer given for the load or pressure can jump to unsafe.
However you are still comparing cases that call for SR primers with those that don't. I stand by what I said, I will not tell anyone it is OK to substitute.
Same as the .475 which has a LR pocket. 45-70 parent case. I was told by 2 powder makers and a gun maker to NOT use LR primers as pressure can spike. I did test them and SD, ES and groups sucked, they gave the same problem in the 45-70 revolver. LP mag primers make them sit up and talk.
Until cartridge pressure rises to the point a pistol primer cup can fail, I feel safer going backwards.
To use a rifle primer in a little case to make power factor because the cartridge is too weak to start with is another silly thing the games impose on shooters. Guys want low recoil and still make power factor. What is wrong with a larger cartridge?
I seen it all with the years and years of IHMSA shooting. Too many guys beating empties out of fine S&W revolvers and single actions. Guys with TC's that had to take a rod to the line in case an empty stuck, others with bolt guns that had to beat the bolt open. None got the idea that accuracy won matches.
You fellas do what you want, at least I am happy not to be involved with some of the things guys do all the time.
I will always tell someone to play it safe! :Fire:

[Willbird]

I heard of a person getting powder(H110/WW296) failure to light off like that with Wolf magnum LP primers in a 44 magnum super redhawk.

Bill

[Blazin]

To use a rifle primer in a little case to make power factor because the cartridge is too weak to start with is another silly thing the games impose on shooters. Guys want low recoil and still make power factor. What is wrong with a larger cartridge?

The game in question is IPSC. And yes, ipsic shooters do anything and everything to get the lowest recoil for the power factor.

What's wrong with a larger cartridge you ask? More recoil and less magazine capacity = a handicap to winning

I think everyone here has answered my question. I'm sticking with small pistol primers in everything except 40 S&W. In fact I will even try small pistol primers in the 40 (can't seem to find Winchester small rifle primers right now anyway).

Thanks,
Bill

[S.R.Custom]

...Dick Wright told me that the demensions i.e. height of a small rifle and a pistol primer were different...

They're not. At least not beyond MFRing tolerances between brands. Just out of curiosity, I put the mic to the various small primers in my current stash, and came up with some interesting numbers...

CCI 550 = 0.121"
CCI #41 = 0.121"
Rem 7.5 = 0.122"
WSP = 0.120"
WSR = 0.118"
Fed 205 = 0.122"

...Note that both the CCI Small pistol magnum primer and the Winchester small pistol primer are both taller than the Winchester small rifle primer. Betcha didn't see that coming. :smile:

That said, I would give the original poster this advice: use whatever works for ya. If you get reliable ignition in your pistol, go for it. In working with the .40 S&W's limited powder capacity, the game is all about getting as much pressure behind the bullet for as long as possible (velocity). I dunno if using rifle primers helps in this pursuit --your chrono will tell the tale-- but if it does, I don't see a problem.

[Bret4207]

One of the only places I've heard the recommendation to use SP instead of SR is in the 22 Hornet, and they say Remingtons little SP at that, not the mag. That little teeney case benefits from the weak primer.

44 man- the 6.5x55- Try Reloder 22. GREAT results with 140's!!!!!!