.44-40 loads won't chamber

[sfwh]

So I've started loading .44-40 with the once-fired magtech brass, bullets from a Lee 429-200-RF 6 cavity mould and using a set of RCBS cowboy .44-40 dies.

I found that once the brass has been run through the dies the outside neck diameter is almost identical to the bullet diameter (.429/.430) so it requires an extremely heavy flare to get the bullet started and once seated it expands the case to the point where the rounds won't chamber. I have used the crimp built into the bullet seating die but even with the maximum crimp it still won't chamber. I've tried them in a few rifles so it's not a problem with the rifles. I measured the neck of some factory rounds and they are about .440 whilst mine are .445 but given the bullets come out exactly .429 I'm not sure where I've gone wrong. Does anyone have any advice?

I have included some pictures comparing my rounds to a factory one from magtech.

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My round on the left, magtech factory on the right

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Factory round and empty case chambering fine

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My round not chambering

[Milky Duck]

get out a sharpie/vivid/felt tip pen......scribble all over your non chambering round,wait till vivid dries. chamber it,and leave on ejector,move it back n forward a wee bit 1/8th inch??? a few times and eject and have a squizz/look... there will be vivid rubbed off where the round it touching...this will tell you something,give you more to work with.your boolits arent too fat perchance???

[sfwh]

Ok I can try that. I ran them through a .429 sizer so don't think they're too fat.

[BLAHUT]

You may need to set them deaper in case the ojive is keeping them from chambering try the black marker as see where they are hitting the rifleing in chamber ??

[Hick]

Well-- I use 44 mag brass in my 44-40, which creates exactly the same problem (but worse). I run my loaded rounds back thorough the 44-40 sizing die (with a little lube and the decapping stem removed). This sizes the brass down without sizing the part of the bullet sticking out of the case. sounds strange but works like a charm.

[36g]

Well-- I use 44 mag brass in my 44-40, which creates exactly the same problem (but worse). I run my loaded rounds back thorough the 44-40 sizing die (with a little lube and the decapping stem removed). This sizes the brass down without sizing the part of the bullet sticking out of the case. sounds strange but works like a charm.

I've done that on other CB rounds (other calibers) before also and it works well for me.

[Springfield]

Magtech brass is the thickest brass out there, along with CBC. You'd be better off with Starline or Winchester brass, much thinner.
Running your loaded cartridge through a sizing die will size the brass back down but it will also size down the bullet in the case, maybe making it small enough to not work properly. Kinda likew running a a .427 bullet through a gun that needs .429

[Baltimoreed]

38-40 and 44-40 actual chamber dimensions vary a whole lot between old an new guns and old and new gun makers. Shoulder locations will vary too between guns. My first thought is do you have an expander in your sizer die? Second thought would be get a lee .427 push through bullet sizer die to slim down your boolits.

[Outpost75]

Get a Redding Profile Crimp die for .44-40 and then seat bullets to OAL and crimp separately. The Redding die gives a more consistent result than the Lee factory crimp die. I have a bunch of new and old .44-40 rifles and revolvers and the Redding die permits the same ammo loaded with .430 bullets to be used in all.

[Hick]

Magtech brass is the thickest brass out there, along with CBC. You'd be better off with Starline or Winchester brass, much thinner.
Running your loaded cartridge through a sizing die will size the brass back down but it will also size down the bullet in the case, maybe making it small enough to not work properly. Kinda likew running a a .427 bullet through a gun that needs .429

Making the portion of the bullet inside the case smaller does not reduce the diameter of the portion in front of the case. It simply makes it into a bullet with two different sections-- very much like a bore rider. I use 0.429 bullets and the nose stays at 0.429-- no problem at all. This is no different than a standard 22 cal bullet, or old 38 caliber bullets.

[ulav8r]

What kind of military rifle is chambered for 44-40? I need to start looking for one, if they are affordable.

[gmsharps]

Win 1873 /44-40 musket comes to mind

[1Hawkeye]

Henry repeater is another. Do you need a .429 bullet that can also be a issue.

[uscra112]

Listen to Outpost 75.

[DougGuy]

You definitely do NOT want to size to .427" this will create other problems like leading, keyholing, etc. I have honed a BUNCH of 44-40 cylinders to .4305" for use with .430" boolits, almost one and all has a .445" neck so your brass is really thick there where it matters.

Try some different brass, Starline for one has .011" neck thickness so adding two thicknesses of case mouth = .022" subtract from .445" = .433" so a .430" should fit and chamber quite easily unless the neck in your rifle chamber is fouled.

Regardless of what the groove diameter in the barrel is, size to fit the throat and you will have good results. With different brass, you may even be able to use a .431" boolit.

[Baltimoreed]

The 1866 musket is 44-40. This is a uberti that they make but you have to special order it. I also have a ‘73 winchester musket from 1891. Cool rifles.

[HWooldridge]

Just for grins and giggles, try a .429 bullet in a fired case before resizing - similar to what is done on some BP rounds. Brass has a bit of springback to it and some brands have more than others, so you might be able to seat bullets without resizing - just decap and reload. Less cold work is also better if you can get away with it.

You may have to crimp into a bullet groove to keep the slugs from pushing back in the magazine but maybe not - worth an experiment.

[sfwh]

Hi everyone and thanks for the advice. I had actually tried running the case with bullet in partially through the FL sizer but I thought it was a bad idea so was hesitant. I'm glad that wasn't just me who thought of that.

I'm going to looking into the redding profile crimp as that seems like a good choice. I'll also get some starline brass when I can.

Beautiful 1866 musket too I didn't know Uberti made them.

[scattershot]

Proper bullet diameter, at least in the old ones, was .427. Don’t know if that could be your problem.

[243winxb]

.427" is the correct bullet diameter.

[Outpost75]

.427" is the correct bullet diameter.

ONLY for the very rare gun with tight barrel, correct chambers and throats if you happen to get lucky. Having bullets smaller than .429 shoot at all well has Not been my experience at all. The SAAMI drawing dimensions have little relationship to reality compared to guns out there in the real world.

I have lots of experience with the .44-40 in both old guns and new. A few examples:

The cylinder throats on my 1908 Colt and both .44-40 New Services of 1920 and 1928 manufacture are .430, and while their barrels slug .425-.429 bullets MUST fit cylinder throats to shoot accurately. Post-WW2 Factory jacketed ammo is mediocre at best.

Pre-WW2 WRA assembled with thinly jacketed bullets, having dead soft lead cores, loaded with Sharpshooter powder was and still is VERY much better. I still have a few boxes which were my Grandfather's I keep as reference ammo.

Closest matches you can produce in modern components to approximate payload, velocity and pressure to Pre-WW2 loads which shoot quite well in the great majority of guns is to assemble loads with the 200- grain .430" diameter Hornady XTP in Winchester factory-primed case with 24.5 grains of RL7, 21 grains of IMR4198 or 18.5 grains of IMR4227. These all have been pressure tested, safe, accurate and effective on game in the 1873 Winchester, Colt SA, the New Service revolvers and modern Italian clones.

My 1920 Winchester 1892 barrel measures .433" and 1889 Winchester 1873 is .435". Post-WW2 Factory jacketed ammo keyholes from rifle barrels larger than .428 and will not stay on a B8 repair center at 25 yards from the original 1873 Winchester, which with correct loads is otherwise our most accurate rifle. Revolver groups from Colt, Pietta, Uberti clones, Ruger Vaquero and S&W 544 all exceed 8 inches at 50 yards with visible yaw on targets!

With Accurate 43-215C cast 10 Bbn, lubed with 50-50 olive oil-beeswax, sized .430 and loaded with 6 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 6.5 grains of 231, 452AA, WST or Red Dot any of my revolvers will group 4-5" at 50 yards for 12 shots from Ransom Rest. My best 1920 Colt New Service tuned by Sandy Garrett at Nova Gun Works consistently under 4 inches.The same loads produce 3-4" ten-shot, iron-sight group at 100 yards off sandbags from the various .44-40 rifles and remain subsonic with low noise.

Accurate 43-200QL is a heeled bullet of my design intended for .44-40 rifles and revolvers having tight chamber necks and large barrel groove diameter without having to rechamber revolver cylinders or rifle barrels and is suited for loading with either black or smokeless powder, having sufficient lube capacity to mitigate foulout in carbines using Goex powder and SPG lube. It will stand "full charge" loads to 1350 fps with suitable powders. RL7 is the powder of choice, but 4198 and 4227 are also satisfactory. While Alliant #2400 is frequently recommended I did not finds its ballistic uniformity as good in standard-pressure loads suitable for the older guns.

My Pietta and Uberti Colt clones have .430 cylinder throats and .429 barrels. My 1894S Marlin .44-40 barrel is .432, same as my .44 Magnum. MANY modern .44-40 rifles have chamber necks which are too tight to enable loading bullets to fit cylinder throats and barrel groove. Neck diameter of .445 is fairly typical per SAAMI, but is too tight with modern barrels of .44 Magnum dimensions.

My older Colts and Winchesters have chamber necks .447-.448 and freely chamber .430 bullets loaded in Starline brass. My S&W Model 544 and Ruger Vaquero both had .427 cylinder throats and .429 barrels and wouldn't shoot for sour apples until the cylinders were rechambered to enlarge necks to .447 and throats to .4305, and shooting soft bullets of 1 to 30 tin-lead at .430 diameter they group almost as well as the old Colts which have provided reliable service in my West Virginia family for over 100 years.

[am44mag]

Get a Redding Profile Crimp die for .44-40 and then seat bullets to OAL and crimp separately. The Redding die gives a more consistent result than the Lee factory crimp die. I have a bunch of new and old .44-40 rifles and revolvers and the Redding die permits the same ammo loaded with .430 bullets to be used in all.

Thanks for the tip on that! I have a Uberti SAA that is a bit picky with loads. I've managed to get most of my reloads to fit using a Lee FCD, but not all. Thankfully, I have a Uberti 1873 that will happily eat those fat rounds. I'll try the Redding die and see if I can't make it so that I don't have to worry about what rounds go in what gun any more. :D

[HWooldridge]

My first ‘92 Win carbine liked .425 to .427 pills - the ‘92 I own now likes .429 much better than .427 - groups are much tighter with the bigger diameter. My Colt SAA from 1904 also likes .425 to .427, and won’t chamber .429 at all, so there is a lot of variety out in the world. Your mileage will most certainly differ…:-)

[Savvy Jack]

Listen to Outpost guys, I see so many incorrect reply's here it just ain't funny!

As he said, CBC brass is the absolute worse brass anyone can use for the 44-40. Next would be RP brass then Starline then Winchester.

Starline is by far the best brass to use in the 44-40. A lot of this has to do with case thickness and flex.

You just can not fit a square in a round pegged hole...or something like that!

When roll crimping, you may be creating a bulge just under the crimp. Winchester never roll crimped their lead bullets, and the JSP bullets only had a slight crimp with a case canular under the bullet.

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After selecting the correct size bullet for the correct sized bore, the chamber size is also important.

The Redding 44-40 Crimp Die does not work well with oversized bullets, however, the Redding die can smooth back down the bulge created with the roll crimp.

Again, this is doctoring up what you have. I use a completely different process.

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You may have the same problem with the rifles, it is just that you have enough leverage when cycling, you really cant tell. The leverage forces the cartridge in and smooths down the bulge. Best to try chambering the cartridge with your fingers like you do the revolver.

Starting over, before you roll crimp, try to chamber the cartridge and see if it fits. If it does, then the problem is the roll crimp step.



This is my process results for both lead and JSP bullets using ONE CRIMP DIE, two different crimps....but two completely different reloading processes.
Lead - .428"
JSP - .4255"
I shoot both in a .429" bore with success. The lead bullet is what I use to group 40 shots in 4" at 100 yards and 30 shots inside 26" at 265 yards.....and it .001 under, not over the size of the bore!!
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Redding Profile Crimp with a 43-214A lead bullet
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Redding Profile Crimp vs Lee Factory Crimp
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[pworley1]

My 44 40's both shoot .429 bullets fine.

[Milky Duck]

if you want to recreate the crimp BEHIND the projectile,like early rounds often had...a simple hand pipe cutter wheel will work..... just be careful and dont go over board....

[Noah Zark]

I had the exact problem as the OP with an old Marlin 1894 made in 1899. All but the last 1/4" of the cartridge would chamber, using .429 or .427 boolits. Slugging the bore showed the problem, the slug miked out at .422"-.423". I couldn't find boolits of that size commercially, but did find a .424" 450 sizer die. I had a .427" sizer die and used it to reduce .429" boolits down to .427-ish, then the .424" die to size the boolits where they needed to be. Success with Starline brass. If that hadn't worked I was going to ream out the chamber and still use the resized .424" boolits, but I didn't have to.

Then the second time out at the range a fellow club member saw the Marlin and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Sold him the rifle and the .424" die for stupid $$$. The attraction was a beautiful clean bright bore with sharp rifling and no corrosive primer frosting. Can't say I miss it; too much like work and I'm heavy into 44 Special levers and revolvers anyway.

Noah