.44magnum help

[Milky Duck]

Bit of a left field question here. first off will explain why...
here in New Zealand we are very much into pig hunting with dogs.... the .44 magnum is a favourite cartridge for the job of dispatching pigs of various sizes at close range..close as in under 25 yards... the usual rifle used has barrel between 12-16" we arent allows handguns

so the job required is a bit of a balancing act,enough power to kill cleanly but not too much power of penertration or we risk projectile passing through pig and risk hitting dogs unseen on other side of pig.

so I thought about it carefully and selected some cast boolits a neat 260grn with big open hollow point and thin lips,its mate is 270grns with lesser hollwpoint and finaally the parent boolit at 280grns a flat point.
have decided the flat points can be loaded hot..a get out of jail load for big pigs or dire straights where angle or shot placement might not be best.
that was the easy one...good load of lilgun..job done.

tried a 6grn load of AP30N similar to green dot also have ap50n similar to red dot..... nope I DONT HAVE BLUE DOT /UNIQUE
it seems the 6grn charge is plenty quiet and accurate...but might be lacking a bit in punch
so the six million dollar question....
and YES I have looked....
where does the shotgun powder light loads go up to safely....EG could a higher charge weight of say 8 grns be a better option??? I really cannot find paper data anywhere??? plenty out there for 240grn or below but zip for the heavier projectile weights.
or would a lighter charge of lilgun be a better way to go?????
any help..real world experiences would be great to hear.
thanks in advance.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Here is a powder burning rate comparison from ADI. You will note there are a number shotgun powders with equivelant burning rates to the pistol powders.

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/

I use a Browning B92 44magnum n a similar manner with 5.5gn AP70 and a 240gn cast boolit!

[Milky Duck]

yes it appears the names were just changed as time went by....question I have is...can you safely up your 5.5grn charge weight to say 7-8grns to be 1200ish fps not 7-800ish???

[GhostHawk]

Well I can say that 6.5 grains of Red Dot shoots very well with 200 or 220 gr cast lead. Well below speeds where you would need a gas check.

Very accurate and comfortable to shoot all afternoon long out of my Single shot H&R Handi rifles.
But I have never shot anything but paper with them.

[wilecoyote]

I apologize for the 2c. digression, but using a medium load, worse if hp, I would be more worried about not hurting a hog enough than going through it etc.
I'm not a hunter, and probably I'm an insufficient shooter, but the idea of an injured hog being proactively directed at dogs or hunters at close quarter bothers me much more.
this with every downloaded .44 mag. I've tried, but I only have sixguns up to 10.5 ".

[Milky Duck]

yes I hear you on that one...and the 260grn hp with 6 grns of AP30N did just that...BUT I suspect its all about shot placement,below the ear isnt as good as in the ear....near misses of vitals with subs are less than ideal....why I went away from them in .30 calibre.will find out when pig gets cut up in a few days time....

[wilecoyote]

again mine is not a real answer, but preventive penetration test on the carcass/head of some donor hog, better if already asleep, could make sense for any of your questions.
you only will establish and know your speed, shot placement, penetration, etc. with the loads you decide according to your shooting accuracy with the handloading materials you have at hand.
I doubt that in Italy anyone could answer, afaik, because in any case it can quickly become a dangerous and fast client, and treated accordingly.
this is not out of contempt for dogs, but to prevent them from being slashed first.

[Soundguy]

Agreed... Hogs soak up bullets.. Around here in the US many of us carry a rifle with a big handgun for close encounters. In a group setting I would not feel underfunded with a 357mag rifle.. And no doubt a 44mag thru even a short carbine will to it..i personally think I'd loose the hollow point.. The dense hair and fat shield may reduce the penetration enough to make a kill shot be a wounding shot. I think I'd go a flat nose..big meplat ..good penetration..good expansion.. And 10-12 bhn and you can push the velocity to where you want it..but it will still expand.

[waksupi]

Agreed... Hogs soak up bullets.. Around here in the US many of us carry a rifle with a big handgun for close encounters. In a group setting I would not feel underfunded with a 357mag rifle.. And no doubt a 44mag thru even a short carbine will to it..i personally think I'd loose the hollow point.. The dense hair and fat shield may reduce the penetration enough to make a kill shot be a wounding shot. I think I'd go a flat nose..big meplat ..good penetration..good expansion.. And 10-12 bhn and you can push the velocity to where you want it..but it will still expand.

I agree, lose the hollow point.

[Hays47]

Other than varmint loads I almost never use a hollow point for anything. Cast bullet with large flat nose or JSP. 63 years of hunting experience. Started to hunt at 10 years of age.

[gunseller]

6 grains of Red Dot and a 210 SWC starting 5 yards away hitting between eyes will exit through a ham. There are plenty of cowboy loads for 45 colt using 260 grain bullets. Start using one of those loads or even dropping half a grain to start.
Steve

[HWooldridge]

We shoot a lot of hogs here in Texas. They come in all sizes up to about 400 lbs., and my son has probably killed some number approaching 1000 pigs without my assistance. He hunts with dogs more often than not and prefers a long knife if the catch dogs can get a good grip but he shoots the big ones because they are more dangerous up close. I seem to recall he's lost 3 or 4 good dogs over the years to boar tusks and has patched up countless wounds. Even with the dogs wearing cut vests, bigger hogs can be formidable.

His favorite caliber up close with hogs is 45 Colt with a 250 gr cast bullet; he uses a Rossi '92 clone with 18" barrel. I cast the slugs 20/1 and load WW231, Red Dot and Clays for him. Neither one of us would hesitate to use a 44 Mag rifle or pistol with a 240 to 250 gr SWC, and a suitable load might be 6-7 grs with any of these three powders.

[Milky Duck]

thankyou...that is what Im looking for..... maybe I need to find a lighter boolit than the 260-270-280s Ive got now..plenty of 240grn types around.
see if you can find a copy of Bill Westwoods book all about pighunting......it will change your sons hunting no end and will probably end the dogs getting injured bit forever.......very big pigs will stand around bailed by dogs that ARENT trying to fight them...they feel they OK, can handle situation,they will often be backed up to a log or bank to stop dogs biting thier nuts..the ONLY time a good bailing dog will touch a pig is a nip to butt end if they try to run.... so pigs,particularly boars with big bulgy bits on back end DO NOT like to be nipped and stop running,back up to something and stay there,the dogs back off a few yards and keep barking JUST ENOUGH to keep pig there and tell you where they are,you sneak up and shoot pig,and go home without having to visit vets.
our biggest boars go 200lbs its a lifetime achievement to get one over that 200lb mark,some fellas may get 3-4 that size but others never do.

[Soundguy]

200 lb pigs here are babies

[Milky Duck]

its all relative...our "captain cookers" have been here for a long time,the european boar...which you fellas are having such issues with was never released here...the ones we have were released by funnily enough Capt Cook... to provide food source for stranded sealers or sailers,this was also done on many smaller islands around the pacific,goats and sheep were also released, the pigs did very well here and have been a major food source ever since.... the boar that usually rips up dogs the worst will be between 110lb and 140lb the 110-120lb mark often has tusks coming pretty much straight out still and the grind is very sharp,they are also still very agile being not much more than hormoanal teenagers.... ten foot tall and bullet proof comes into it aswell.
Ive stuck pigs up to 170 lb...shot a couple in the 180lb class...thats a big hunk of pork to carry out.
for best eating...70-120lb is far and away the best....

[OFFSHORE]

A few years back I worked for a state agency here in Florida (for 14 years) and part of my job was to eradicate the hog population off of state lands. Prior to that from the age of 15 until my wife threatened me with divorce papers at age 29, I went hog hunting 3 to 5 nights a week!!! I could not even begin to tell you the number of hogs I killed with the same Ruger Single Six .22 WMR revolver and 40gr. Winchester load. I find it humorous how folks find these animals to be immortal and the need for such heavy artillery to take them down. My largest was an actual weight of 538 lbs. and he was caught alive with dogs and was in the process of being sold to a hunting ranch. Unfortunately he became untied in the back of my truck at a gas station in Bronson, FL and proceeded to wreak havoc to every chain link fence with a barking dog in it throughout his final run through town. I couldn't turn my crew of curs lose in town and the Levy Co Sheriff Dept. ordered me to end things. . .that same .22 mag Ruger pistol with a neck shot at about 15 to 18 steps folded him up in his tracks!!! Are they a tuff and badazz well put together critter. . .why, hell yes!!! Are they these immortal creatures that a Sherman tank is required to slow them down before they come and devourer you whole after they lay you open, not hardly. Be conscious of the load you use and know "your" limitations, but just know that hogs are not all that, they die quite easily.

[HWooldridge]

A few years back I worked for a state agency here in Florida (for 14 years) and part of my job was to eradicate the hog population off of state lands. Prior to that from the age of 15 until my wife threatened me with divorce papers at age 29, I went hog hunting 3 to 5 nights a week!!! I could not even begin to tell you the number of hogs I killed with the same Ruger Single Six .22 WMR revolver and 40gr. Winchester load. I find it humorous how folks find these animals to be immortal and the need for such heavy artillery to take them down. My largest was an actual weight of 538 lbs. and he was caught alive with dogs and was in the process of being sold to a hunting ranch. Unfortunately he became untied in the back of my truck at a gas station in Bronson, FL and proceeded to wreak havoc to every chain link fence with a barking dog in it throughout his final run through town. I couldn't turn my crew of curs lose in town and the Levy Co Sheriff Dept. ordered me to end things. . .that same .22 mag Ruger pistol with a neck shot at about 15 to 18 steps folded him up in his tracks!!! Are they a tuff and badazz well put together critter. . .why, hell yes!!! Are they these immortal creatures that a Sherman tank is required to slow them down before they come and devourer you whole after they lay you open, not hardly. Be conscious of the load you use and know "your" limitations, but just know that hogs are not all that, they die quite easily.

No argument at all about a .22 being sufficient. My grandfather used to use .22 Shorts when he butchered domestic hogs. However, a .45 250 gr bullet “anchors” them if you are in a bad position. My son broke his only flashlight one night and walked home during a new moon so all he had for illumination was starlight. He was about a quarter mile from the house when he ran into a sow with babies. Fortunately, she grunted before she charged; he shot instinctively with his .45 Colt revolver, the bullet hit several inches behind her head, straight through her body and into the ground. Her head landed on his boots - I expect he had to change both his underwear and pants that night. He now carries a half dozen flashlights every time he goes out at night.

I generally use a 45-70 Marlin with 300 gr JSP’s. Might be overkill but every pig shot with the rifle acted like a Mack truck drove by.

[Milky Duck]

yes Ive used the 22lr on pigs too...and used 11 rounds on an angry boar of about 130lbs trying to penertrate a vital spot before got peeved off with that idea and told Smoke to "hold him" a border collie on each ear and I grabbed rear leg and stuck pig.... that was the last time I used the 22lr on pigs.... Ive killed them with .12ga .410 303brit 30/30 .308w .270w .22-250 7.62x39mm .223 .222rem and it comes down to same thing,put the right projectile in the right place,...anywhere in the ear canal is good,strangely enough its the 223 that has taken the most for me.only because I carry it more when up chasing wallabies and run into pigs the 50grn ttsx really shines for pigs as it penertrates like nothing else.that said bog std 55grn cupn core work well too ON SMALLER PIGS eg under 100lbs our boars get a very hard thick shield over neck n shoulders,no its not armour plating ,but it is hard gristle that is 1-2" thick and will stop smaller lighter projectiles. try poking your razor sharp knife through it sometime...go on I double dare you.....just dont try it on a live pig...
your lad has good reflex's that sure would put the frighteners up you.

[Three44s]

I do not know if you have this powder but my favorite for and upper medium field loading that gives you good control in a DA revolver is HS6.

From the Hodgdons #26 manual they list 250 gr lead from 10.0 to 12.0 gr. (Start to max) and in later editions they raised the max higher.

I personally like the old school loading because it’s less bite on the shooters end and less stress on lead alloys.

My load consists of 11.8 gr of HS 6 ignited by a mag pistol primer (Fed 155 in my case) and the RCBS 250K boolit (wheel weights with a bit of tin added for better fill out).

I get 1066 FPS with a SD of a mere 7 FPS out of my Smith 629 Mountain Gun (4”). I suspect that lead in whatever configuration weighing from 240 to 260 and the rest of the above concoction should be satisfactory.

Easy on the paws, tough on what irritates you. Meters like sin through any powder measure worth its salt.

That’s my 2 bits worth

Three44s

[Tripplebeards]

I have 8 pounds of green dot. I tried some 10 mm 180 grain cast loads that were looked up by a member here on load data’s website. Seems max load is 6.2 grains. I’ve have tried a 5.8 grain load so far and they are pretty tame vs factory recoiling rounds. Cycles perfectly in my Glock 20 and brass falls anywhere to my shoes out to 5’. Factory ammo land 15’ to 20’ plus feet away…if I can find my brass. Seems green dot is a pretty tame powder. Haven’t tried green dot in any of my 44 mag rifles yet. I have tried trail boss in my 77/44. It was around 950 fps with close to a full charge along with a 263 grain Lyman devastator. Don’t have any pigs around here to test on. I also tried 5.2 grains of trailboss in my new Ruger vaquero chambered in 45 Colt. Chronograph average was 575 fps using a lee 250 grain boolit. I tried a few head shots on some nuisance trapped raccoons. Dead is dead…but I can tell you plain old Winchester 333, 22lr ammo killed quicker and with more shock value. I would have to guess if your trying to slow the boolit down shot placement is going to crucial imo since the “shock value” will be minimum. I would “Think” a brain and or spine shot is going to be a must when slowing down the 44 mag if your trying to anchor pigs with a slow load that won’t exit. IMO It’s easier imo to speed up a high velocity fragmenting jacketed bullet like a Nosler ballistic tip jacketed varmint bullet to get shallow penetration and keep from exiting. Don’t know if any of this will help but figured I’d offer an opinion to your post.

[Milky Duck]

yip triplebeards you have it nailed...... and its hard thing to convince the end user about..... in reality a .12ga with #4 birdshot at 3 feet would be safer...but its LOUD..... the humble .223 with 55grn soft points works well too.
what my gut tells me I will end up with...is a dual loading........ something reasonably quiet and tame that will shoot bottom of beer can at 20 yards...anywhere in earhole will be fine...and a get out of jail load..full noise,no compromise.

[Milky Duck]

three44s thanks for that...mate has ap100 which sits right next to your powder so he will be pleased to read that.

[Milky Duck]

well so far..2 shots fired=two dead pigs
first was a subsonic..hit low,in jaw,pig charged,dogs grabbed it and pig was stuck with knife
second was hit reflex shot as it bolted past at all of 2 yards...I THINK it was a supersonic reasonably hotly loaded 270grn semihollow point...sounds like high shoulder spine hit..dropped on spot...
have some 240grn berrys bullets to try at some point,AND got a set of my own dies
cant believe how much fun Im having with this.
..its a challenge to me..
I WILL get it right....
too plurry stubborn not to LOL.

[lar45]

Sounds Excellent :)
If you can get me the length of your bullet and the loaded length, I can try to put it into Quickload with RedDot as the powder.
The problem with heavy bullets and super fast powder is that small changes in powder charge can give big jumps in pressure without too much of an increase in measured velocity.
I'm fairly sure that you can bump up your loads some. You'll just have to keep a close eye on the primers. If they start to get flat, your at max, if they crater, you are over max.
What rifle and barrel length will you be testing them in?
I love working outside the norm. I have loaded 405s in the 45 Colt for a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk. Lots of fun...

[Soundguy]

My last pig was taken at 50 yds with a 150gr 30-06.. it dropped and was rolled over.. shot detonated a shoulder tore lungs out and blew ribs out on one side. bak legs kicked a couple seconds.. that was it. I had a perfect side heart shot lined up and he saw me just as I was fingering the trigger and he turned to near face me so the angle of the shot instead of side to side heard was more of shoulder lungs ribs. He tasked good. dressed out just over 100# was a piney woods rooter. My buddy took a piney woods/russian mixed.. he dressed out at 150.. he got a better side shot.. he was in a lawn chair setting in weeds neck high near a wet spot... I was in a sparse treed area standing in the middle of a 3 trunked oak... way more open... which is why piggy saw me,,,

[HWooldridge]

My last pig was taken at 50 yds with a 150gr 30-06.. it dropped and was rolled over.. shot detonated a shoulder tore lungs out and blew ribs out on one side. bak legs kicked a couple seconds.. that was it. I had a perfect side heart shot lined up and he saw me just as I was fingering the trigger and he turned to near face me so the angle of the shot instead of side to side heard was more of shoulder lungs ribs. He tasked good. dressed out just over 100# was a piney woods rooter. My buddy took a piney woods/russian mixed.. he dressed out at 150.. he got a better side shot.. he was in a lawn chair setting in weeds neck high near a wet spot... I was in a sparse treed area standing in the middle of a 3 trunked oak... way more open... which is why piggy saw me,,,

He probably smelled you. Once they turn toward you and raise their snout, it's a good sign that within a second or two they will take off in a mad dash. I slipped to within 5 or 6 steps of a boar once but I had the wind in my favor - even so, he still smelled me after a short time, and took off in the opposite direction.

I've been told the only animal with a nose approaching a hog's sense of smell is a bear...

[Soundguy]

You could be right. Wind may have changed right as I was taking aim..and yeah..i didn't want to loose him.. I knew it would be a kill shot.. Just knew it wouldn't be perfect. My buddy had already killed his and the grunts from the pack in our area weren't near enough to see another straggler.. So I decided to go for it. If he had ran 5' in any direction he'd have been gone.

[Kosh75287]

I like the term "get out of jail load"! I hope you won't mind if I use that!
I don't think there's much point in increasing the charge with the AP50 (Red Dot similar) propellant. You might very well get somewhere, by carefully increasing the charge weight from 6.0/AP30 to 6.5, 7.0, and perhaps even 7.5 gr. Reload 5 or 10 at each charge weight, and shoot them (chronograph, if you can), checking for flattened(ing) primers, and sticky extraction. A LITTLE bit of primer flattening is not usually a bad thing, but it's a sign that you are approaching a maximum. Sticky extraction means "STOP!".
You should probably also keep your velocities near or under 1000 f/s, so that the faster projectiles do not break the sound barrier and add a super-sonic "crack" to the noise.

[Driver man]

I cast and powder coat a 240 swc . I shoot them in a 6 inch revolver with 8 grains of AP70 (similar to Unique) .This is a very accurate load with an average speed of 950fps.

[Milky Duck]

Sounds Excellent :)
If you can get me the length of your bullet and the loaded length, I can try to put it into Quickload with RedDot as the powder.
The problem with heavy bullets and super fast powder is that small changes in powder charge can give big jumps in pressure without too much of an increase in measured velocity.
I'm fairly sure that you can bump up your loads some. You'll just have to keep a close eye on the primers. If they start to get flat, your at max, if they crater, you are over max.
What rifle and barrel length will you be testing them in?
I love working outside the norm. I have loaded 405s in the 45 Colt for a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk. Lots of fun...

its a begera rifle...and strangely enough,the first loads I put together,I seated them long..just cause I could....and the 2X 6grn of green dot loads were really quiet......so Im THINKING by seating long,Ive in effect made it a bigger case,so a lighter load...seated deeper the pressure will be higher so maybe I wont need to up it much anyway...also in theory a rifle barrel should be 3-400fps faster than handgun...better powder burn etc etc...so maybe the velocity will be in desired range without much tweaking....