45 Short Colt

[KCSO]

After many years of looking and wondering I had a fellow bring me a box of ammo marked 45 SHORT Colt. I have yet to dissect one but they have the same rim as the OLD 45 Colt and are 1,142 OAL with a ,735 case length and a ,454 diameter bullet. Shorter case than a 45 and W. I will be weighing the powder and firing for velocity soon.

[Castaway]

Before i fired any, I’d post this on the Vintage Ammo forum and see if there’s a collector interest

[HWooldridge]

This is a different size from the 45 Auto Rim. I have never heard of a 45 Short Colt.

[M-Tecs]

After many years of looking and wondering I had a fellow bring me a box of ammo marked 45 SHORT Colt. I have yet to dissect one but they have the same rim as the OLD 45 Colt and are 1,142 OAL with a ,735 case length and a ,454 diameter bullet. Shorter case than a 45 and W. I will be weighing the powder and firing for velocity soon.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLongShort45Colt.htm

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

I pulled one of the .45 shorts apart and weighed and measured it. The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/45-long-colt-vs-45-short-colt.221215/

Back in 1871 Colt started working on a .45 caliber revolver, in 1872 they submitted it to the Army and it was accepted for purchase in 1873. It of course fired .45 Colt ammo.
Meanwhile Major George Schofield made suggestions to Smith & Wesson on their Model 3 to make it easier to reload by cavalrymen. The .45 Schofield was accepted for purchase in I think, 1875. The Schofield had a shorter cylinder than the Colt and it required a shorter cartridge. The .45 Schofield cartridge would chamber and fire in the Colt SAA though. Frankford Arsenal stopped making the long Colt round and started making only the shorter .45 caliber round as it fit both revolvers. So that's why people call it the .45 the long Colt, there used to be two versions of military ammo for it, the original length or ".45 Long Colt" and the shorter version of it that chambered in both the .45 SAA and the .45 Schofield revolvers.

[Castaway]

The ammo mentioned isn’t 45 Schofield. Case and OAL isn’t right

[HWooldridge]

Interesting - learn something new every day. I have some experience with the 45 Schofield but never saw a 45 Short Colt. Everyone in my immediate family who owned Colt revolvers had .44-40 or .38-40 calibers - I was the first person to buy and use a .45 "anything"...

[36g]

Take a look at the .45 Colt Government cartridge - similar to the .45 Schofield with the rim of the .45 Long Colt.

[Castaway]

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

[barnetmill]

To make things even more confusing is Starline's .45 cowboy special


Product Information

The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die.

303038

[Harter66]

M Tecs description is the way I understood the progression to the short .
With a .735 case length that doesn't work with the Colts rim on the 1.1" Schofield S&W cartridge. W/o looking it up that sounds even shorter than the GAP .

[Castaway]

Over on Graybeard a few years ago there was a fellow trying to get shortened brass made in 45 for Cowboy action shooting. I asked why and his response was for full cases and light loads so targets could be engaged more quickly.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting thread and read!

Many years ago (like 60), I became acquainted with an old gunsmith who was in his 80s at that time who ran a small shop. I was very interested in muzzleloaders - used to buy my caps and powder from him. He took me out back of his shop one day and taught me how to shoot cap & ball revolver using his grandfather's Colt 1851 Navy. Afterwards, he showed me a Colt SAA in 45 and some original cartridges - I remember that some of them were "short". Years later, when I finally "discovered" cartridges and got interested in the 45 Colt, I have thought about those cartridges he showed me. I assumed the the shorter cartridges were Schofields, but after reading this thread, I believe that they were actually "Colt Shorts" as described. Now I wish I had paid more attention to what the old gunsmith showed me and asked more questions.

KCSO - if you do break down one of those Colt Shorts - could you please take some pictures and post them and try to determine the powder charge and bullet weight? I think it would be interesting to trim some brass to the correct length and try to duplicate the load to see how it shoots. Would love to see some good photos of the original box as well to see what info there is on the box.

Thanks for your post and the responses - interesting stuff.

[Baltimoreed]

I use the .45CS in my short barreled .45colt cas rifles. They run fine in my Marlin trapper and short 1873 and are as cas target accurate as any other .45. Wonder if your Colt Shorts are balloon head cases. I had some .450 webley brass that were balloon headed. Tried to reload them and they had to be pushed all the way into the 45colt sizing die and driven out from the top to size them all the way down as the bottom would expand too. Used very light loads and bullets.

[KCSO]

I would disagree that Frankfort quit making the 45 LONG Colt as i have FA stamped rounds from the 1890's. I of course heard of short colts from Elmers book but had just never been able to find any. It is nice to have some in hand to play with. I will post the rest of the data and chronograph results as soon as I can get to the range.

[Walks]

When I was young, My Dad had a S&W #3 Schofield model. He also had 2 boxes of .45Gov't ammo. They were shorter then .45Colt. We used them as a guide to cut down .45Colt cases to shoot in the old Smith top-break. The rims on the old ammo were larger then the .45Colt cases. The cut down case rims would often slip under the extractor star unless the revolver was opened upside down.
Don't know what happened to it. But it was gone, ammo and brass too, when I came home from my time in the Service.
Seem to remember the load might have been 5.0grs Bullseye under a 230gr bullet from a Saeco mold. Can't say I remember it that well. 50+ years is a LONG time.

[M-Tecs]

with a ,735 case length and a ,454 diameter bullet. Shorter case than a 45 and W. I will be weighing the powder and firing for velocity soon.

Pics of the headstamp and side view would be helpful. The 0.735" is 0.163" shorter than a 45 ACP (0.898"). The only 45 cal. case that I am aware of that is that short is the British .450 Adams.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Very interesting, another .45.
Just for the record, not trying to confuse anybody, the Kirst .45 ACP Conversion Cylinder for the 1860 Colt will also work with the .45 Cowboy Specials.
A cartridge designed for CAS, to allow reduced loads for the .45 Colt without a big air space below the projectile.

[toot]

what gun takes the 45 COWBOY SPL.?

[Baltimoreed]

Any gun chambered for .45[long]Colt will shoot them but I don’t know of any firearm that is actually chambered for .45cs. I have a modified cylinder Colt New Service that will chamber and fire .45cs and 45acp [not on moonclips] but not chamber .45colt.

[Ecramer]

I've purchased a couple of hundred rounds of Cowboy 45 Special (C45S) but I've yet to load the brass. My plan was to use them loaded with a 200-grain bullet and black powder in a pair of 1860 Army revolvers for cowboy action shooting. This hasn't come to fruition yet because I'd like to have an appropriate rifle shooting them, which means I have to buy and modify either a Winchester 1866 or a Henry. I think the load I described will pretty much duplicate the ballistics of both .44 Colt and .44 Henry, albeit that the bullet is slightly larger.
Mike Venturino had also located true 45 Short Colt and wrote one article about it, but I can't remember what he said was the original source for the cartridge (what is knocking around my aging memory is that it was Canuck branded and made in Canada).

[Larry Gibson]

Take a look at the .45 Colt Government cartridge - similar to the .45 Schofield with the rim of the .45 Long Colt.

45 Government is the official name of that cartridge. It's specifications are in the manuals of the day. As mentioned it was made by government arsenals so the same cartridge could be used in both the Schofield and Colt service revolvers. Colt then began making the Colt SAA's with smaller diameter ratchets on the cylinders so regular 45 Scofield cartridges could be used. Many of the original issued SAAs were recalled and modified. The 45 Government cartridge had a short life.

45 Short Colt is a colloquial name.

[bedbugbilly]

Larry -

Good information. Forger about the "45 Cowboy brass.load" that's been mixed in with the conversation - the three cartridges utilized by the Army (and eventually civilian use - if I have the facts straight) were the 45 Colt, 45 Schofield and the 45 Government, which is being referred to as the "45 Colt Short".

Does any of your references/info state what the powder charge and bullet used were? Did it utilize the same RNFP slug as the $% Colt and Schofield? (My guess would be yes??)

I'm assuming that the 45 Government cartridge passed government testing since the Arsenals started producing them, but, as you note, the cartridge was short lived. Do you have any references/info as to how the cartridge was received by those who actually had to use it and how it performed in the field? I fully understand the "why's" that the cartridge was developed, but am curious as to how it was accepted (or cursed) by those that had it issued to them - if any of that has survived through the years. One thing to pass the government testing, but quite another thing if an individual were to get caught in a life threatening situation where the cartridges in his revolver didn't have the power of the 45 Colt cartridges he was accustomed to using.

Thanks for anything you can share.

Jim

[HWooldridge]

IIRC, there were also two 45 Colt loads, one was the original 40 grs BP and 250 gr slug, and 28 grs BP with 230 gr bullet, or something in that vicinity. I believe I read somewhere the Army concluded the original Colt load yielded too much recoil so the lighter loading was developed for the long case.

[Savvy Jack]

Winchester's 45 Colt Government cartridge is a late comer, but nothing new (per Frankford Arsenal). Still an all black powder load, was offered as late as 1925.

28gr Black Powder
230gr lead bullet

303173
303174
303175

Manufactured by several ammunition companies, it was still only a 45 Colt Government cartridge, not a "short" colt.
303176

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Guys,

I think we're missing the point from the original post.

KCSO has in his possession a 45 Short Colt, with a case length of 0.735".

The 45 Cowboy had a case length of 0.989", the same length as the 45 ACP & 45 AR.

The 45 Government has a case length of 1.109", same length as the 45 Schofield.

Personally I'd like to see the head stamp, but so far I'm believing there was such a creature.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Larry Gibson]

The point is if the box said "45 Short Colt" it was just colloquial name given to what was still the 45 Government cartridge. Same as "Stingers" are still just a 22LR cartridge.

The Army manual of the day states the 45 Government cartridge was loaded in an inside primed case with a 230 gr bullet loaded over 28 gr of BP.

I believe the 45 Government was well received by the troops. When the specifications for the 45 ACP were drawn up it appears it was to emulate the ballistics of the 45 Government cartridge with a 200 gr bullet. Browning bettered that by using the same 230 gr bullet.

[bedbugbilly]

AntiqueSledMan - O.K. I'm old and a bit confused here - so the 45 Government cartridge is the same basic dimensions as the 45 Schofield - which of course is shorter - so it could be used in issued revolvers chambered in the Schofield AS WELL as issued revolvers chambered in 45 Colt . . . am I correct so far?

So here is my confusion . . . . is "45 Government" just the "name" assigned yto the cartridge rather than calling it the "trade name" (I'm assuming) . . . OR . . . is the "45 Government" the same case length/same charge/boolit as the 45 Schofield cartridge, BUT, with a rim the same dimensions as the 45 Colt RATHER THAN the rim dimensions of the Schofield, made necessary by the ratchet dimensions of the Colt SAA before Colt changed the dimension and the early SAAs were sent in to retrofit?

Given the case length of the "45 Colt Short" that KCSO has that I assume is a Commercially made product, not a "military" issued designed one or a clone . . . we're discussing Apples and Oranges. If the so called "45 Colt Short" has a case length pf 0.735" + or - . . . . then my question is "why" or "for what"? As a Gallery or short range target load? Not unlike the purpose of the present dat "45 Cowboy" brass that has gotten mixed in with the conversation?

Thanks for straightening out my confusion . . . it will save my wife from having to "send me to the home"! :-)

Jim

[Savvy Jack]

Until we see photos of the headstamp, or no headstamp, it's just a guessing game.

The 45 Webely was .770

[barnetmill]

The point is if the box said "45 Short Colt" it was just colloquial name given to what was still the 45 Government cartridge. Same as "Stingers" are still just a 22LR cartridge.

The Army manual of the day states the 45 Government cartridge was loaded in an inside primed case with a 230 gr bullet loaded over 28 gr of BP.

I believe the 45 Government was well received by the troops. When the specifications for the 45 ACP were drawn up it appears it was to emulate the ballistics of the 45 Government cartridge with a 200 gr bullet. Browning bettered that by using the same 230 gr bullet.

The brits for their military revolvers in .45 Webley used a short case of 0.886 originally loaded with black power before switching to cordite and I do not believe that there were any complaints relative to killing men in close combat of which the british did a lot of in those days.

Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
265[2] FMJ 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 289 ft⋅lbf (392 J) blackpower load
265 gr (17 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s) 212 ft⋅lbf (287 J)
265 gr (17 g) 757 ft/s (231 m/s) 337 ft⋅lbf (457 J)
265 gr (17 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s)[3] 220 ft⋅lbf (300 J)
200 gr (13 g) 900 ft/s (270 m/s) 360 ft⋅lbf (490 J)

[M-Tecs]

The brits for their military revolvers in .45 Webley used a short case of 0.886 originally loaded with black power before switching to cordite and I do not believe that there were any complaints relative to killing men in close combat of which the british did a lot of in those days.

Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
265[2] FMJ 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 289 ft⋅lbf (392 J) blackpower load
265 gr (17 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s) 212 ft⋅lbf (287 J)
265 gr (17 g) 757 ft/s (231 m/s) 337 ft⋅lbf (457 J)
265 gr (17 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s)[3] 220 ft⋅lbf (300 J)
200 gr (13 g) 900 ft/s (270 m/s) 360 ft⋅lbf (490 J)

It's predecessor did.

https://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

Many of these were the Adams revolver in 54 bore and the decision was made to convert these Adams "Cap and Ball" revolvers to fire a metallic self-contained cartridge. As a 54-bore pistol is essentially .450 caliber, the cartridge designed to be used in converted revolvers was the .450 Boxer which became the .450 Adams Mk 1. This cartridge had the dubious distinction of being recognized as underpowered and ineffective before it was approved in late 1868. It used a drawn brass case riveted to a separate disk of iron (Mark I) or brass (Mark II), and a 225-grain lead bullet. There was a Mark III Adams cartridge that used a 1-piece, drawn brass case, and a 225-grain round-nose lead bullet held by a deep cannelure, that was approved in 1909. However, in terms of the evolution of the .455 it is only the first two marks of .450 Adams that really have any bearing.

The British Colonial conflicts such as the Afghan and Zulu Wars confirmed the Adams gun/cartridge’s lack of effectiveness where it served more to annoy the natives than to dispatch them. So in the late 1870s, the British Government developed a replacement revolver at the Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF), Enfield. This appeared in 1879 in .455 caliber. Though there were some experimental .455 cartridges at the time, the tests were ongoing. So, in fact, the .455 Enfield Revolver was accepted before suitable ammunition was available. In the interim, the official response was to use the .450 Adams ammunition in the .455 Enfield Revolver.

[M-Tecs]

After many years of looking and wondering I had a fellow bring me a box of ammo marked 45 SHORT Colt. I have yet to dissect one but they have the same rim as the OLD 45 Colt and are 1,142 OAL with a ,735 case length and a ,454 diameter bullet. Shorter case than a 45 and W. I will be weighing the powder and firing for velocity soon.

.455 Colt is close but case is still to long.
https://collectibleammunition.com/product/455-colt-short-round-lead-dominion-455-colt/
https://collectibleammunition.com/product/455-colt-dominion-455-colt-canada/

https://gunsmagazine.com/our-experts/the-455-webley/#:~:text=The.455%20Webley%20was%20originally%20a%2 0black%20powder%20cartridge,case%20length%20would% 20work%20in%20any%20of%20them.

The .455 Webley was originally a black powder cartridge with a case length of 0.85 to 0.87″ (the MKI). With the arrival of smokeless powders, the case length was reduced in 1897 to 0.74-0.76″ (MKII). However, all subsequent .455 Webleys were chambered for the longer original cartridge so either case length would work in any of them. The original .455 Webley round is the .455 MKI and Colt made this same round (with a different shaped bullet) as the .455 Colt.

https://shop.ammo-one1.com/product.sc?productId=339
The .455 Colt and .455 Enfield were only produced in the longer Mark I length: case length was .850" to .886." The over-all cartridge length is 1.157" to 1.448" and only loaded with black powder,

As stated above this is just a guessing game without headstamp and or box pics.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello bedbugbilly,

I can't answer your question of "Why" or "For What", but I don't think your ready for the "Home" just yet.

Guess I have to agree with Savvy Jack, photo's would definitely help on this one.

I'm not disagreeing with Larry Gibson, I always believed the .45 Government was refereed to as the .45 Short Colt.

However, the cartridge which KCSO has described is a complete different cartridge from anything else,
and apparently the box is labeled .45 Short Colt.

I must add, Cartridge names apparently do change, the 30 WCF has been changed to 30-30 Win,
and my favorite the .44 Colt has been changed to .44 Colt Original because of the rebirth of the Modern .44 Colt with its .430 diameter projectile.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Dave T]

As a certified "picker of nits" I feel I should point out that until Star-Line started calling it the "45 Schofield" the proper, original name for the cartridge was the 45 S&W. Without digging into my library, memory says S&W never chambered any other handguns for that cartridge. I've never understood why Ordnance felt it necessary to re-name it as they always referred to the original chambering for the SAA as the 45 Colt but the 45 S&W became the discussed 45 Government.

As for the government loadings, the original 45 Colt was 40g of black powder behind a 255g RNFP. Soon after (about 1874) they discovered the full powered 45 Colt was too much for the troops and reduced the charge to 30g of powder behind a 250g bullet. Then the Schofield debacle hit with supply not being able to get the right ammunition to the right units and Ordnance again gutted the performance of the SAA to the S&W's load of 28g of powder behind a 230g bullet.

Dave

[Savvy Jack]

Hello bedbugbilly,


I must add, Cartridge names apparently do change, the 30 WCF has been changed to 30-30 Win,
and my favorite the .44 Colt has been changed to .44 Colt Original because of the rebirth of the Modern .44 Colt with its .430 diameter projectile.

AntiqueSledMan.

The 30WCF was changed due to Marlin and all are official manufacture designated names. It all started with the 44-40. Marlin worked closely with UMC and UMC eventually called it the 44-40 for Marlin.....but it didn't stop there. The 44 WCF had nearly 6 different names by FIREARM manufactures due to not wanting other's names on their goods. Very competitive back then with names and especially patents.

Primers to be specific, each manufacture wanted their own primer design of which Winchester, UMC and USCCo did have.

Winchester - Oliver Winchester's 1874 primer patent (Winchester 73")
Winchester - J Gardner's Oct 1st, 1878 patent
Winchester - AJ Hobb's (son of AC Hobbs) 1882 patent

UMC - Hobb's/Orcutt's March 10th, 1874 patent
UMC - Hobb's Oct 1st 1876 patent

USCCo - Farrington's Dec 17th, 1872 patent, updated to Three Types

Self Identifying is not accepted!

[Brick85]

Interesting to stumble upon this thread, I've been thinking about the idea of shortening .45 Long Colt cartridges to gain magazine capacity in rifles with tubular magazines. Perhaps easier than messing with trimming cases would be to use the Starline cowboy brass. Hopefully there wouldn't be any feed issues. Is there actual published load data around for these shortened cases or is it more about loading down but taking the case volume into account?

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting to stumble upon this thread, I've been thinking about the idea of shortening .45 Long Colt cartridges to gain magazine capacity in rifles with tubular magazines. Perhaps easier than messing with trimming cases would be to use the Starline cowboy brass. Hopefully there wouldn't be any feed issues. Is there actual published load data around for these shortened cases or is it more about loading down but taking the case volume into account?

Before you do that make up a couple of dummies and see if they will run - typically with the short case the rifle tries to load two and gets about one and a half in the lifter! Not good for running - length of cartridge is quite specific for most designs.

[Larry Gibson]

I too would like to see a picture of the box and the cartridge headstamp. With cases of that length the cartridges are not 45 Government cartridges. Need to see them to ID them.

[Savvy Jack]

Interesting to stumble upon this thread, I've been thinking about the idea of shortening .45 Long Colt cartridges to gain magazine capacity in rifles with tubular magazines. Perhaps easier than messing with trimming cases would be to use the Starline cowboy brass. Hopefully there wouldn't be any feed issues. Is there actual published load data around for these shortened cases or is it more about loading down but taking the case volume into account?

That is why the 45 "Cowboy" brass was designed, do yourself a favor and just buy the cowboy brass. It has already proven itself.

Elmer Kieth hyping up the long colt bs has been a huge disservice to the 45 Colt cartridges.

[KCSO]

Elmer was using holy black in the 40 grain charge to giver over 900 fps with a 250 grain bullet in the 7 1/2 barrel. This was very potent in the 1920's and is still a good field load today. He never shot a 45 colt in a lever gun and would have had little use for one of this little power. When he went to smokless he dumped the 45 in favor of the 44 for stronger cylinder walls.

[Dave T]

Elmer was using holy black in the 40 grain charge to giver over 900 fps with a 250 grain bullet in the 7 1/2 barrel. This was very potent in the 1920's and is still a good field load today. He never shot a 45 colt in a lever gun and would have had little use for one of this little power. When he went to smokless he dumped the 45 in favor of the 44 for stronger cylinder walls.

DITTO to what KCSO said. Personally I've never understood the enthusiasm or desire to shoot the 45 Colt (developed and introduced as a revolver cartridge) in lever action rifles that were never chambered for the round. Guess it's a case of "just because I can". I'm too historically oriented to go that route. Besides, the 44 WCF is a fine rifle cartridge as proven by decades of original use.

YMMV,
Dave

[M-Tecs]

Still waiting for pics of the headstamp and box.

[M-Tecs]

This thread is no good without pictures..............