S&W M69 @ 50yds

[BigboreShooter]

A few months ago I posted some data from test results on my new 69 @ 25yds.

Well here's little data from 50yd testing.

S&W M-69 4.25" barrel
Vortex Venom 3moa red dot ,Alchin mount.

1- RCBS 250K -.4305"/8grs-Unique/CCI-300-----4.25"
2- Arsenal 429-421 GC version .4305"/9.5grs Unique/ CCI-300----3.22"
3- Lyman 429-215 GC 430.5/10grs Unique/CCI-350----1.285"
4- Same as #3 2.32"

I was so impressed and surprised at the Lyman 429-215 load, I had to shoot another group.
But over the years the Lyman 429-215 has been the most accurate cast bullet.

Bigbore Shooter

[Blazin]

Impressive to say the least!

[Outpost75]

How many shots per group? Single target or is this an average, if so of how many groups?

[Three44s]

Very impressive indeed!

Rather than go to 10 gr of Unique I like to trade up to HS6. At 11.8 gr, a Federal 155 primer, and the RCBS 250k my 629 MG sings sweet music. I get a SD of just 7 FPS out of it.

I think I have a non-gas check version of that mold in a Lyman but I would have to go to another mold # that I have to get a checked boolit to try.

Three44s

[BigboreShooter]

Groups were 5 shots.Off sandbags.I will test more loads further and some over the chronograph.
BigboreShooter

[pworley1]

Very good!

[243winxb]

Nice shooting.

May I ask what was used?

Primer,

brass,

bullet lube,

Fl dies, (how sized, neck or full body, ).

Bullet diameter as cast dropped from the mold,

alloys BHN,

Expander type M & diameter?

Is the Unique hand weighed? I have had good accuracy with Unique in my 44.

Thank you.

[BigboreShooter]

All bullets were sized to.4305”
Bens Red homemade lube
BHN was 15-16
All brass was full length sized in OLD Lee die
Brass was assorted brands, but each load was all the same brand

[GL49]

Impressive.

Is the Vortex sight somewhat of a fix for older eyes? My eyes seem to be aging faster than the rest of me, I'm having a hard time with open sights on rifles and handguns. Mostly with rifles.

I'm guessing no gas check, just sized? I'm going to have to try your load in my model 29's and my Rugers. All my brass is sorted by headstamp and # of times fired, but I'd bet the difference there is going to be about zero.

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for sharing. I have been very pleased with Ben's red as well.

[Outpost75]

Groups were 5 shots.Off sandbags.I will test more loads further and some over the chronograph.
BigboreShooter

Looking forward to updates. Nice work!

[Buck Shot]

1.285"

Wow!

[BigboreShooter]

GL49-yes! The red dot is compensate for my 66 year old eyes. I was trying to test the load/gun,taking as many human variables out of it. This especially true with 4” barrel.
With the red dot mounted, it becomes a viable hunting gun .

BigboreShooter

[tward]

Nice shootin’, Tim

[Shuz]

I noticed that you used a CCI 350mag primer with your 10g Unique load. It would be interesting to see if the groups were as good if you used CCI 300 primers.

[BigboreShooter]

Shuz,
I tried CCI350 on 10gr/Unique load because I have almost 5m of them.Knowing 10grs wasn’t a max load.This way saving my CCI300 for target/practice loads.

BigboreShooter

[Paul105]

Good shootin'! The M69 is my favorite double action handgun platform. Have a pair and a spare of each barrel length (first one bought Q1 2014). Best group was with my original 2.75" - right at 2" at 50 yds, verified on a different day. Benched over range bag with factory sights. New Top Brass (scharch), 260gr WFNGC .432" Mt Bullet Works, Fed 155, 23.0gr H110, seated to and crimped in cr grove (1,125 fps at 5 paces and 68 deg F). Had a picture but inadvertently deleted entire portfolio on Image Event.

Great little guns. Was out shooting a 2.75" yesterday. Two loads with 240gr CSWCBB commercial coated, deep seated and crimped over front dr band (5.0gr WST and 17.5gr A2400) cci std primers, multi x mixed brass. Just shooting steel - poppers at 25 to 100 yds.

Big fan of the M69s (oh, already mentioned that).

Paul

[Catshooter]

" Have a pair and a spare of each barrel length."

Very smart thing to do.

[BigboreShooter]

A little more testing.
got a chance to shoot a few more groups. I refired the Lyman 429-215GC/10gr Unique load. The 200gr Saeco/7gr-W231 is my everyday practice load for my 44's.

1. Lyman 429-215GC/ 10grs /Unigue/CCI350

Group 1- 1.70" Group 2- 1.22"

2. Saeco 200gr T/C/7grs/W231/CCI300

Group 1- 2.88" Group 2- 2.50"

3. Lyman 429-421/8grs/Unique/CCI300

Group 1-3.47" Group 2- 1.91"

Again, all groups @50yds, over sandbags.With Vortex Venom red dot.
All bullets sized .4305"

Bigbore Shooter

[DougGuy]

All bullets were sized to.4305”

I'm curious as to throat diameter now, will the .4305" slip through the throats?

[BigboreShooter]

DougGuy,
I have absolutely no idea the size of M69 throats,or groove diameter! If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The Saeco 200gr/7gr/W-231 load is extremely accurate in 3 other 44mag. In FA97 44spl I drop down to 6grs and is equally accurate.
Interesting, the 200gr Saeco load and the Lyman 429-215gc/10gr Unique load poi is only about 1” different @50yds. I think the 429-215gc/10gr Unique load will be my field/ hunting load. Next week I shoot some over the chronograph.I’m guessing 1150fps.
BigeboreShooter

[44MAG#1]

Amen and glory hallelujah.


DougGuy,
I have absolutely no idea the size of M69 throats,or groove diameter! If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The Saeco 200gr/7gr/W-231 load is extremely accurate in 3 other 44mag. In FA97 44spl I drop down to 6grs and is equally accurate.
Interesting, the 200gr Saeco load and the Lyman 429-215gc/10gr Unique load poi is only about 1” different @50yds. I think the 429-215gc/10gr Unique load will be my field/ hunting load. Next week I shoot some over the chronograph.I’m guessing 1150fps.
BigeboreShooter

[sixshot]

Impressive load but also impressive shooting, well done!

Dick

[Blazin]

I just noticed the 4.25" barreled 69 is, sadly, no longer listed in S&W's catalog. I would have thought that would have been a great seller.

[BigboreShooter]

I just went to S&W website, the 69 4.25” was listed. It you had to look under ‘build’.
BigboreShooter

[Blazin]

I just went to S&W website, the 69 4.25” was listed. It you had to look under ‘build’.
BigboreShooter

Whew, that's a relief, thanks, I musta missed it.

[Kosh75287]

If a 4.25" barrel is "special" to the M69, what barrel length do they propose as "standard"?

[BigboreShooter]

I think both are options, they just list it that way.
BigboreShooter

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Put a 6" gong up at 50 and stay sharp.

[roysha]

This has got to be fake because all the "experts" will tell you that the "new" method of rifling, EDC?, is not conducive to accurate shooting with lead bullets. Right?

Very good shooting for sure. I'm not able to shoot that well but I sure do like my M-69 4.25". I didn't think I would ever say this, but I believe it is running neck-n-neck with my 629 as my favorite handgun. Love those 44s!

[Rapier]

My Lyman 215 shoots well in my 444 Marlin as well. I use 12 grains of Unique. Good shooting for a stubby, by the way….

[BigboreShooter]

Just a reminder! That shooting was over sandbags, Vortex Venom red dot . I wish I good shoot that well with iron sights. Them days are gone.
Tomorrow I plan shooting a couple loads over the chronograph!
On the discussion of EDM barrels. I think that would require exhaustive testing of several guns.I know in the last 2 years . I bought 3 new S&W revolvers, and I have been pleased with the accuracy!

BigboreShooter

[roysha]

OK. I used the wrong letters in regard to the rifling method that S&W uses.

This is the description of the method called ECM: Electrochemical Machining

Since 1993, Smith & Wesson has been using ECM to manufacture most of their revolver barrels. They use machines manufactured by Surftran to do their work. The barrels are hardened and annealed before the rifling process. The hardened barrels are then placed in the ECM machine and held stationary. The electrode is a plastic cylinder with metal strips circling around the exterior. The metal strips are a reverse image of the desired rifling and are inset into the plastic cylinder. This way, only the plastic part of the cylinder touches the barrel and not the metal strips. The electrode is placed inside the barrel and the whole is immersed into an electrolytic solution of sodium nitrate which is constantly circulating under pressure. The electrode is moved down the barrel and rotated at the desired rate of rifling twist. As current flows from the cathode (the electrode) to the anode (the barrel), the material is removed from the anode to duplicate the grooves in the shape of the electrode. Because the metal parts of the electrode never actually touch the barrel (only the plastic core does) and because the flowing electrolyte removes any material from the barrel before it has a chance to accumulate on the metal strips, the electrode usually lasts a very long time and needs no cleaning or maintenance. In fact, the electrode is replaced only when the plastic core which contacts the barrel to provide proper centering and spacing of the metal strips, wears out.

The advantages of this are that the process is extremely precise and can be used to machine hard materials like hard steel alloys, titanium alloys etc. Similar to the EDM process, it also produces no heat or stress on the barrel during the rifling process and also produces an excellent finish. Unlike the EDM process though, it is much faster to machine parts using this technique. A typical rifling job for a 357 magnum revolver barrel can be done in about one minute using this process, making it ideal for mass production. The tool can also be repeatedly used as there is very little tool wear.

[Andy45]

Thank you for that clarification! I really like my old school Smiths, but I had concerns about this new rifling method. The M-69 has been on my wish list since it was first became available.

[GooseGestapo]

I’m sizing my bullets for my M69 0.431” they are a snug fit in the throats.
It too is accurate.
I mostly shoot the Lee 200gr RFN OVER 5.5gr of #231, from a .44Spl case.

[BigboreShooter]

Finally got a chance to chronograph the Lyman 429-215gc /10gr Unique/CCI350 load=1182fps
BigboreShooter

[Catshooter]

That'll leave a mark. Probably won't buff out, either. :)

[Paul105]

Here's some M69 info I've collected over time:
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For Reference, 21.2gr A2400 w/250gr Keith Lyman 429421 (20.0gr is max in latest Speer Manual) chronos 1,250 fps at 5 paces and 83 deg F from the same 4 ¼” M69. Federal Factory 240gr .44 Mag chronos 1,217 fps.
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Load Data for REFERENCE ONLY -- NOT A RECOMMENDATION – DO YOUR OWN DUE DILLIGENCE -- There might be typos and lead bullets may not be the same configuration.
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240gr below are Laser Cast SWC BBs
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240gr, 5.6gr HP38, ... 739 fps avg, 36 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 6.5gr HP38, ... 883 fps avg, 32 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 9.4gr Longshot, ... 1,078 fps avg, 18 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 10.6gr HS6, ....... 1,035 fps avg, 24 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, Federal Fact (No. 44A), ..... 1,217 fps avg, 12 fps ES
(We chroned this load at 1,375 fps from a 7 1/2" Bisley Hunter.
240gr Horn JHP XTP, 24.0gr H110 …… 1,323 fps (Hodgdon says 1,522 fps from 8.275” Bbl)
250gr Keith SWC (429421), 21.1gr A2400 …… 1,250 fps (WLPs, crimped in crimp grove for nomal OAL)
260gr LBT, WFNGC gr H110 …. 1,224 fps (Crimped in crimp grove for normal OAL) -- THIS IS MAX LOAD
265gr SWCGC, 17.5gr A2400,...... 1,142 fps avg, 37 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.570).
When seated deep (as was done here), this load will run right at or a bit above 1,200 fps from a 6" barrel.
270gr Speer JSP, 21.5gr H110 ……. 1,153 fps (My 6” 629 gives 1,207 fps -- Hodgdon says 1,421 fps from 8.275” Bbl)
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Note: Above H110 loads used Fed Large Pistol Magnum Primers, and New Top Brass (Scharch). All others used mixed cases and Win Large Pistol (WLPs) except the 250 Keith/21.1gr A2400 used new Top Brass and WLPs.
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Load Data for REFERENCE ONLY -- NOT A RECOMMENDATION – DO YOUR OWN DUE DILLIGENCE.
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300gr WFNPB 1.651" OAL - LBT type - source unknown.
20.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,102 fps avg, 37 fps ES
.
310gr RNFPGC DC 1.605" OAL (top crimp grove) - LEE mold.
20.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,141 fps avg, 23 fps ES
.
325gr WLNGC 1.711" OAL - Beartooth Bullets.
22.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,182 fps avg, 13 fps ES (3 shots only)
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Chronoed these from the 2.75” M69.
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Three rounds at 5 Long paces from muzzle and 68 deg F. Larger sample could change the results a bit. Largest ES was 42 fps. All in new Starline cases and CCI 350 primers.
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225gr Barnes XFB with 18.1 gr A#9 avg (1,214 fps (muzzle vel from Labradar)
240gr Cutting Edge Flat Point Mono – 22.6 H110 1,218 fps (1,247 fr 2.5” 329 Alaska Backpacker) Muzzle vel from Labradar
240gr Zero JSP with 24.0gr H110 avg 1,126 fps
240gr JHP Fed Factory avg 1,125 fps (bought at an estate sale “44a 1981 production” – 1,375 fps from 7 ½” RSBH)
260gr WFNGC w/23.0gr H110 avg 1,125 fps
265gr CSWCGC (Lyman Thompson) with 17.5gr A2400 (Deep Seat – crimped over front drive band) 1,119 fps avg
265gr SWCGC (429244) 23.5gr H110, seated and crimped in crimp grove in Mag cases ---------- 1,162 fps
.
310gr FNGCDC (Lee) with 20.0gr H110 avg 1,100 fps
325gr WLNGC (BTB) with 22.0gr H110 avg 1,104 fps

.
.
I Was curious, so I bought some 305gr Buffalo Bore and Underwood ammo – here are chrono results.
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Buffalo Bore, 305 LBT LFN HC rated 1,325 fps
Underwood, 305 LFNGC Plated (HiTech?) rated 1,325 fps
LabRadar muzzle velocity at 33 deg F
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S&W M69 2.75" ===> BB 1,195 fps ===> Under 1,147fps
S&W M69 4.25" ===> BB 1,276 fps ===> Under 1,248 fps
Ruger SRH 7.5" ===> BB 1,395 fps ===> Under 1,315 fps
.
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Different Guns/BBL length comparison with 325gr WLNGC
.
.
325gr WLNGC Beartooth Bullets
22.0gr H110
Fed 155 M
New Top Brass
Five long paces from muzzle, Temp 45 – 70 deg F

7 ½” Ruger SRH …. 1,279 fps … ES 33 fps … 70 Deg F
6” S&W M629 ……. 1,269 fps … ES 16 fps … 70 Deg F
4 ¼” S&W M69 …… 1,182 fps …ES 13 fps … 45 Deg F
4” S&W M329 …….. 1,085 fps … ES 26 fps … 60 Deg F (CCI 350, diff pwdr lot)
2 ¾” S&W M69 …… 1,104 fps … ES 9 fps … 68 Def G
.
.
Brian Pearce covered the M69 and appropriate load data in Dec 2014 (#293) issue of Handloader Magazine. If you have a M69, you should consider ordering a copy from Wolf Publications http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/index.cfm?magid=689 .
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With the Hornady 240 XTP Brian listed 24.5gr H110 as Max. A max load of 21.5gr of A2400 was listed as max for both the 240gr Nos JHP and 250gr Keith.
.
Here’s a brief recap of the article excluding load tables.
.
Article addressed strength & durability w/long term use of .44 Mag level ammo – shot over 2,700 round while testing and discussed engineering features.

S&W Reengineered yoke to place enough supporting steel surrounding bbl threads to handle Magnum pressures and allow increased barrel shank diameter.

Due to location of bolt notches (chamber wall thickness at weakest point is .040” in 629 vs. .052 in M69) cylinder strength is more than adequate to handle .44 Mag pressures. Ball detent lockup is a plus and “aids chamber alignment and durability”.

All endurance package features previously/currently incorporated in 29/629s have been included in M69.

Brian quotes S&W “the L=frame has a strong durable frame and barrel built for continuous Magnum useage”. Further, S&W engineers subjected the M69 to endurance testing with full power .44 Mag ammo and passed with ease.

Per Brian “IT SHOULD BE EMPHASIZED, HOWEVER, THAT THESE GUNS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR LOADS THAT EXCEED MAXIMUM SAAMI PRESSURE GUIDELINES FOR THE .44 MAGNUM, OR 36,000 PSI”.

Regarding recoil he said the smaller L-frame’s lower bore axis “translates into decreased muzzle lift, less felt recoil and quicker follow up shots”.

Balance of article is basically discussion of load data specific to the M69 with some other observations.

Showed a table comparing velocities M69 vs M629 with various factory loads (210gr thru 300gr). Also included a couple of load data tables covering bullets from 180 – 300gr.
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I measured the throats on 2 of my original M69s with plug gauges. On both, the .429 is a go, the .430 is a no go – say .4295”.
Also measured the barrel/cylinder gap -- .004” feeler gauge go, .006” no go. Both guns were the same.
.

629 Mtn Gun weighs 39 oz
M69 L Frame weighs 37 oz

629 Mtn Gun Cylinder Diameter: 1.70”
M69 L Frame Cylinder Diameter: 1.56”

629 Mtn Gun Cylinder Length: 1.705”
M69 L Frame Cylinder Length: 1.670”

(Note: The M69 cylinder is 1.670 inches and isn't recessed for cartridge rims -- a 1.712" hand load fits, but is right at the face of the cylinder. Lymans No 49 edition shows OAL w their 425421 Keith Bullet is 1.710". A .429 minus plug gauge will enter all throats a .430 plug will not.)

629 Mtn Gun Frame Window - Height: 1.735“
M69 L Frame - Frame Window Height: 1.600“

629 Mtn Gun Frame Window – Width: 1.880“
M69 L Frame - Frame Window Width: 1.820“

629 Mtn Gun Cylinder Wall at Narrowest Point: .095” -- (.0900” between chambers)
M69 L Frame Cylinder Wall at Narrowest Point: .060 “ -- ( .130 “ between chambers)
(629 Cyl Bolt Cuts are over the chamber while M69 bolt cuts are between chambers)

629 Mtn Gun Frame Top Strap – Width: .665“
M69 L Frame - Frame Top Strap Width: .665“

629 Mtn Gun Frame Top Strap – Height: .220“ to top of frame (includes sight mortiss)
M69 L Frame - Frame Top Strap Height: .210“ to top of frame (includes sight mortiss)

629 Mtn Gun Barrel Shank OD: .630“
M69 L Frame - Barrel Shank OD: .620“

629 Mtn Gun Frame Over Barrel OD: .900“
M69 L Frame - Frame Over Barrel OD: .880“

629 Mtn Gun Trigger Reach: 3.10“ (same grips for both 629 & M69)
M69 L Frame - Trigger Reach: 3.00 “

Brian Pearce -- Bolt notches weakest point - M69 thicker than M629 at this location


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[BigboreShooter]

Thanks for the extensive data. You put a lot of time into it. I’ll print your results,to keep for reference.
I have Brian Pearce article.I also keep it for reference.
I haven’t shot a jacketed bullet through my 69, and probably never will. My main purpose of the 69 is to have a compact handy gun.

[Paul105]

My main purpose of the 69 is to have a compact handy gun.

Me too!

[RJM52]

NICE shooting...

In 1973 I bought a 29-2/6.5" and used that same 215 grain bullet. Other than a few boxes of the Sierra 180 grain JHC, the 10K that went through the gun were all that bullet. Will have to check the data for the load but the velocity was 1250 fps...

Bob