WC 820 Failed to fire.

[lavenatti]

I bought a few pounds of WC 820 a few years ago (old Talon surplus) and just got a round to trying some of it out. I loaded 13 grains into a few (5) .357 mag cases and topped them off with 158 grain jacketed bullets. I only loaded 5 because I didn't yet have magnum primers and just used the Winchester small pistol primers i had laying around.

Three of these rounds fired just fine, two went poof and we had to drive the stuck bullets out of the barrel. The powder was compressed into a lump behind the bullet and crumbled up between my fingers. The handgun used is a Ruger SP101.

The powder looks fine in the can, no rusty color and still has that nice clean solvent smell smokeless powder has. I've had bad powder and this still looks ok to me.

Could it just have been lousy ignition from the primers? I'm aware its pretty tough powder to light. I have magnum primers now and will probably try a few more loads with the magnum primers but I'd still like to hear a few opinions.

[Larry Gibson]

"Could it just have been lousy ignition from the primers?"

That's what it is. The new magnum primers should solve the problem.

Larry Gibson

[454PB]

I hear ya.....take a look at this:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838&highlight=454+Squib

[mike in co]

I bought a few pounds of WC 820 a few years ago (old Talon surplus) and just got a round to trying some of it out. I loaded 13 grains into a few (5) .357 mag cases and topped them off with 158 grain jacketed bullets. I only loaded 5 because I didn't yet have magnum primers and just used the Winchester small pistol primers i had laying around.

Three of these rounds fired just fine, two went poof and we had to drive the stuck bullets out of the barrel. The powder was compressed into a lump behind the bullet and crumbled up between my fingers. The handgun used is a Ruger SP101.

The powder looks fine in the can, no rusty color and still has that nice clean solvent smell smokeless powder has. I've had bad powder and this still looks ok to me.

Could it just have been lousy ignition from the primers? I'm aware its pretty tough powder to light. I have magnum primers now and will probably try a few more loads with the magnum primers but I'd still like to hear a few opinions.


i see that as very close to a max load...not a place i would start at.

mike in co

[MT Gianni]

To add to the wisdom stated above be sure that you have a heavy crimp. Mine likes some pressure.

[Dale53]

NO amount of crimp will make up for lack of case bullet pull when using slow burning powders. Slow burning ball powders are the worst of the breed.

However, I have shot tens of thousands of slow burning ball powders in the .44 magnum without a single problem AFTER I learned that. 2400 is a good deal easier to ignite but can exhibit the same problems. Elmer Keith mentioned this MANY years ago. He recommended .44 magnum expansion punches to be at least as small as .425" for .429"-.430" bullets. I found out that he knew EXACTLY what he was talking about. My first .44 Magnum loads with H110 used my old .44 Special dies that expanded the case necks to the point that there was almost NO case neck tension. I had two bloopers (left the bullets in the barrel) out of the first cylinder full. I ordered a new set of dies. When they were received and used my problems ended.

I almost never use magnum pistol primers. Federal 150's work fine with WC 820 (the slow lot that is only .5 gr faster than H110) over thousands of rounds behind the Keith 240-250 gr bullets as well as the Lee 430C-310-RF WHEN THE CASE NECK TENSION IS ADEQUATE.

YMMV
Dale53

[RSOJim]

I had to go to small pistol mag primer to ignite my lot of wc 820 in the 357 reliablly. I had too many squibs and stuck boolits. Jim

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. You may have a combination of problems. First ill go this way. Ive never seen consistant deviation readings with 820 and standard primers. You might get away with it if your loading right to the max but with a download of any degree 820 needs a mag primer. Preferably a cci 350. Now before the arguments start, ive got decent accuracy at 25 yards using std primers but it will allways fall apart at longer ranges and the chrono will tell you why. I to have seen hang fires with it useing lower pressure loads and std primers.


Second problem you could possibly be running into is a light hammer strike on your primers. If youve done action work on that ruger id recomend then that you use a fed mag primer. Most primers especially ccis have harder cups then feds and need a good strong hammer strike to ignit properly.

Case tension has allready been addressed but most 44 dies ive bough have been in the range that allow for decent case tension and if you use a good crimp they will work fine.

It could be one or a combination of these problems. First thing id try though is switching to a mag primer.

[lavenatti]

Thanks for all the replies. I suspected the primers were the issue and was hoping to get some replies to that effect. I'll try a few loads with magnum primers and see how that works.

The link to the other thread 454PB posted shows exactly what I was seeing in the picture of the compressed powder lump with some loose powder around it after knocking the bullet out of the barrel.

I'd really hate to dump four pounds of powder. It didn't cost me much but replacing it will.

[Junior1942]

I had the same problem in 44 mag pistol with WC820. Like the guys said, the solution is mag primers, case neck tension, and crimp.

[frank505]

820 is a very good magnum pistol powder when loaded correctly. Primers make a huge difference and your chronograph will tell you what is going on. In my 357 Blhk with a 200 grain Keith I am up to 13 grains in a Starline case, Federal small pistol magnum. This load runs 1233 fps with 27 ES and an SD of 12. I am not willing to add more powder as it shoots very well at all ranges. Looking in my data book, the 356156 was loaded with much more powder than you and ES was very large, like 45 fps.
12 grains with the 358627 wieghing 225 grains did 1190 with an ES of 14 and an SD of 5.
Like Lloyd said, magnum primers and I would suggest a heavier bullet.

[Mugs]

I use a small rifle primer [Rem 71/2] in all my small primer use. Cures all my ignition problems with ball powder. I use alot of 748 AA#9 & H108 same as WC 820. 7 BR 30 BR 7 SM 30 car. 357. All with ball powder and Rem. 71/2 no Problems.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[454PB]

Again I will point out that the powder and primer I was using are the very same that I use with heavier boolits (320 to 335 grain), and I've never had a hangfire or squib in many thousands of rounds. The only difference in my case was the lighter boolits.

[Lloyd Smale]

when you increase the bullet weight you increase the pressure and it will then burn better.

[bearmn56]

I had a similar problem with AA 4100 which Hogdgons offered as H108 and later still as Lil'Gun. This very close to WC820. Like several of the posters have noted. HEAVY bullet pull and MAGNUM primers are a must!! I had the failure to ignite in a Super Redhawk in 44 mag. Cold weather also agravates this problem with the very slow handgun powders. We have lots of cold here in Montana. I finally quit using 4100 all together in the 44.


As others have noted about bullet pull. The fix for the .357 is to take out your expander and polish it down to about .355"or even .354". This will cause very firm seating of .358" bullets. Also, set up your dies to give a heavy roll crimp. ONE WORD OF WARNING....and this comes from the Accurate Arms loading manual. The Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primers gave the Reloading Lab people at Accurate up to a whopping 35% increase in pressure with their pistol powders. I have used the Win SMP primer for years with 2400 and 4227 with no particular problems. However, with the 4100 pressures were astronomical with these primers. I test all loads in a S&W Mod 28 and with 13.0gr of 4100 and a 158 gr bullet I had to drive out the cases from the cyl of the M28. I went back to the CCI 500 primer as recommended by Accurate and pressures went back to normal. However, in cold weather velocities were erratic over the chronograph. I finally switched to AA#9 and so far have had no further problems either in the 357 or 44.
Sometime older powders have some deterioration that is not visible. I recently bought some Winchester 540MS older stock. It looks OK but seems to have some rather large extreme spreads. Will probably use it up with plinking loads.
Lots of fun HUH??
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[500swshooter]

I have also had this problem, but only when it was very cold out. It occoured in the 500 smith with a 540 grain bullet. I dont remember the charge but it was near max as required for 820. The same ammo shot fine on a warm day.

[ace1001]

I might point out that the military 30 cal M1 carbine load is 13.5 gr WC820 behind a 100? gr bullet. I use that behind .158gr .357 mag and get 1550 fps in a 20 inch rifle barrel. Wonderful little gun to shoot. Ace

[dougader]

I had a similar problem with AA 4100 which Hogdgons offered as H108 and later still as Lil' Gun.

Sorry to take this off point, but could you please tell me where you got the information that H108 is the same as Lil' Gun?

The data I have from Hodgdon, and my own load work up, doesn't match any data I have seen for Lil' Gun.

Any info you have is greatly appreciated.

[sundog]

I'm with dougader here. It is important to know what that info is and where it came from. Everything I've ever done has been AA9/H108/WC820 is the same stuff with lot to lot variation. Lil Gun is NOT the same powder.

[dougader]

I emailed Hodgdon last night about this and here is the answer I received this morning:

H108 was a military surplus powder not packaged by anyone else and certainly not related to Lil Gun.

Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless powders
Pyrodex Muzzleloading Propellants
Triple Seven Muzzleloading Propellants
IMR Smokeless Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders
GOEX black powder

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In my load workup with H108, I didn't see a direct correlation to any cannister powder, but somewhere between AA#9, 2400 and VV N110.