Recoil is the enemy of accuracy.

[dtknowles]

I could not find a sub-forum on shooting so since this is the most popular sub-forum, I am putting this here.

It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately.

Tim

[M-Tecs]

For the firearm/ammunition combination I don't agree. Once you add the shooter to the mix it becomes much more true. More recoil requires better form to shoot well. The M-14 I used in service rifle competition was much less tolerant of form issues than the AR15 service rifles. Same for the 300 Win Mag falling out of favor for the 1,000 competitions. Ballistically it generally superior to its smaller bore replacements but the shooter fatigue factor is real so the smaller bores won out.

On the other hand, the extreme long-range competitors are using some really big thumpers with incredible accuracy.

I have a 375H&H that produces 1 1/2" groups at 300 meters for five shot groups. I put a Krieger barrel on it but it would not come close to being competitive for ELR.

The 375 CT and the 37XC are very popular for that usage.

https://cheytac.com/product/cheytac-match-grade-ammunition/

https://www.rifletalks.com/ballistics-by-rifletalks/david-tubb-37xc-cartridge/

https://www.rifletalks.com/ballistics-by-rifletalks/david-tubbs-33xc/

[Bigslug]

What was the line that got bounced around in The Ghost and the Darkness - "Can you control your fear?"

The larger cartridges with big capacity and large bore volumes to expand their gas into are MUCH more forgiving of load variation than the little guys, and when loaded with the same scrutiny, are capable of turning in some very low SD figures over the chronograph. Like M-Tecs, I've had good luck with the .375 H&H. In contrast, my .22 K-Hornet (which barely recoils at all) took more work to get grouping properly than almost anything I've encountered in 35-ish years of handloading.

The real issue is being able to turn off that little corner of your lizard brain that wants to scream out that you're about to get pounded. Once you can convince the lizard of what your rationality already knows - that it isn't REALLY going to hurt you - you can start delivering the goods with the larger stuff.

No, it's not easy and it takes work. We're going back to 9mm in L.E. because (A.) we've learned it can work just as well, and (B.) institutionally, we don't have the money and time to get that point across to those that lack the inclination, but for MECHANICAL accuracy, I'd bet on the low-pressure .45ACP any day of the week.

[stubshaft]

Larger cartridges are MUCH easier to get accuracy out of than a smaller one as the deviations between the bore/cartridge are minimized by the bore size. That being said, you gotta practice to be aboe to handle the recoil! A 500 S&W Mag. OR 458 Win. Mag. loaded with light bullets and Trailboss ARE NOT BIG BORES!!!

[TurnipEaterDown]

If scoring: It's easier to get a better score w/ a larger bullet hole as cutting the ring is what matters.

Recoil sensitivity varies person to person (mental & physical), and situation to situation.

All depends on what you're doing, what you can manage, and what you want to manage.
Mechanical & personal plays into this.

[44MAG#1]

I could not find a sub-forum on shooting so since this is the most popular sub-forum, I am putting this here.

It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately.

Tim

Not if you learn to handle recoil. Now that I am elderly I don't shoot hard recoiling firearms anymore, not that I can't handle them but due to wear and tear on my arms.
I still own some and once in a great while will shoot the monster mashers.
It is ALL in the mind. To learn to handle heavy recoil one must shoot heavy recoil guns. A 22 RF, 9MM, 357 Mag won't get you there.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Stock fit, rifle weight, recoil pad(soft,hard,none) and number of rounds to be fired are all part of the recoil equation. An 18 pound 300 magnum is not a big deal, strip that down to 7 pounds and that same cartridge is miserable. Recoil is cumulative - muzzle blast, noise, actual physical impact to shoulder and face. If you think you are a tough guy, shoot another 200-300 rounds with something that has significant recoil, a 7 pound 300 Winchester Magnum, a 7.5 pound 45-70 with 300 grains at 2200 fps. Talking tough is easy, a 12 pound 6.5 Creedmoor is easy, a 7 pound 300 Winchester, not so much. Targets tell the tale, if recoil did not matter, all the target guys would be shooting 338 Lapua's at everything. I limit my shooting the hard kickers to 10-20 rounds per session, 50 or 100 32 Specials with 185 cast at 1600 fps is much more funner and is accurate enough for 150 yard offhand practice, my 12 pound 6.5 Creedmoor is also fun at the longer ranges- 300,600,800 yards sometimes more. I'll let you tough guys get beat up. Handguns, never found the 45 ACP to be difficult to handle, muzzle blast of 357 and 44 magnums also annoyed me more than in hand recoil, found the 45 Colt works just as well for most handgun stuff. I do like the 9mm, mostly due to low cost, same with the 223, cost not effectiveness. Have fun and don't beat yourself up trying to be a tough guy.

[dverna]

I have only two data points.

The first occurred 55 years ago when I was 17. I was at a public range with my first CF, a M700 Varmint in .222 doing load workups. Groups were 5/8" to 1.25 inches. At the next bench was a 40 something YO shooting a .338 Win Mag in a gorgeous Browning Olympic grade. His patterns were 10-14". He asked for help.

I fired the first three shots into 1.5". Adjusted the scope and another 1.5" group. One more adjustment to get the groups 2 1/2" high at 100 yards, but the group opened up a bit. He was ecstatic. He told me I could finish off the box of ammo. I declined. It hurt and I was developing a flinch. The rifle and ammo were capable, but he was not...and I was getting there too.

15 years ago, I bought a .300 Mag for an elk hunt. I remembered shooting that .338 and had a muzzle brake installed before taking the first shot. I can shoot that .300 Mag well for multiple groups as it kicks less than a .270. I "know" I could not do that without the brake. I am not willing to punish myself to learn to shoot well with heavy recoil. There is no point.

IMO, recoil does not affect accuracy of the rifle/load as much as it affects the shooter.

[atr]

I have to pay attention when shooting my 7mm Rem Mag because it does have a bit of recoil. If I pay attention I get accuracy, if not I don't. That being said my fatigue limit due to the recoil is 15 to 20 rounds fired.
Whatever rifle it is, whatever caliber, I believe if it fits your body properly recoil is easier to control.

[NSB]

Good comments Don. Here’s something I learned years ago while teaching new shooters (and some “experienced” shooters who could swallow their pride). I’d take them to the range and insist that they wear both ear plugs and a good set of muffs (I provided both for the session). Much to their surprise I’d take them right up to the berm and have them shoot the gun without aiming at anything. I’d tell them to watch the muzzle and pay attention to the recoil with each shot. I’d have them shoot ten or more shots just paying attention to what the gun was doing with each shot. When they realized what was physically going to happen with each shot we’d go back to the bench and aim and shoot. Your autonomic nervous system will ruin good shooting based on your own physical reaction to this kind of stress. It won’t ever quit affecting it, but you can learn to mentally suppress it to a great degree. Rifles can wear you down, but a handgun shouldn’t if you properly train yourself. I own several 45-70 rifles and at the age of 73 I can still sit for an extended range session and shoot some amazingly good groups with several of those gun. They are inherently very accurate. Just my two cents…..

[popper]

The real issue is being able to turn off that little corner of your lizard brain that wants to scream out that you're about to get pounded. A problem for me.
Trying to figure out a target. 308W ~2300 fps, all cast bullets from same casting/coating session, PCd, sized 310 and 309, same load. Big difference on the target. 309 gives horiz spread - 310 gives closer grouping but vert and horiz spread. Presume 310 has more torque than 309 but 310 shoots high and 309 shoots low (possible lower fps due to lower start pressure?). Front stand and rear bag. Jacketed hits POA. Was 95F that day, repeat when cooler.

[country gent]

A big help in high power and long range was the heavy NRA coat that was worn the padding spread recoil over a larger area. The match stocks were heavier and slightly larger. The rosin a lot used kept the rifles from slipping around.

As was stated above stock design makes a big difference as does weight. A muzzle break helps also but can be annoying to those around you on the range.

It isnt recoil that ruins accuracy its uncontrolled recoil that does and learning to control recoil so the rifle does the same every shot is a long process. When the Garands and M14/M1As were on the line building a position with a solid natural point of aim was extremely important. at the shot the rifle recoiled then came back down to the sights at 6 o clock naturally.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I'll throw back in:
The comment on training is a very good comment.
Most people train themselves to shoot, and undoubtedly train in a lot of bad technique. Hold, body positioning, repeatability of physical relationship to gun, etc.
Also, reaction to recoil is training too. I never give someone something that kicks hard when they want to learn how to shoot. It's a learning process, as much as anything, to shoot high recoil guns well.
It is also really hard to learn out a flinch. I had to do that after shooting a 10" handgun for a few years that made 1600-1650 fps on a 400 grain bullet. Initially I shot that gun well, then as time went on I got worse and developed a flinch. Then, that habit took hold on other handguns. Then I purposefully re-learned control. Took me about 6 years. I am glad I sold that particular pistol that taught me to flinch.
The comments about fit have Big implications. I had a 1894 Marlin in 44 Rem Mag. I swear it kicked as bad as a 30-06 Springfield sporter w/ hard buttplate. I also have a Spanish made 20 ga sxs that kicks worse than my 12 ga Parker sxs. Fit, weight, they play a role.
The hold / repeatability thing is really big. Probably the biggest in my mind. Most factory guns ill-fit most people in some manner, and this is where most of us are as we don't do custom stocks made to fit (new stocks w/ adjustable comb risers, butt offset, etc. can help), yet, good hold and repeatability can make a good shooter look great w/ a factory gun.

Honestly, I shoot my 416 w/ 400s at 2300 fps (9.75 lb, 52 lb*ft recoil energy) as well as I do my 23" TC Contender 7x30 (6.875 lbs, 11 lb*ft recoil): 1.5-1.75" 5 shots @100 yds, and have shot other guns better. I have shot enough groups in the 0.1-0.4" range, 5 shots at 100 yd with other guns & loads, that I don't bother to consider it "great". Am I happy, sure. However, mostly what I pin my variance to is load development (what am I going to do with the gun, and when is the load good enough for a purpose), and shooter form/technique.

I am not a world class shooter, but I wouldn't exactly recommend trading places w/ a prairie dog at 400 yds or less, and then tweaking me...
I find that I realized long ago that doing most anything is training, and good training is invaluable and rare. No one does anything naturally but breathe and scream.

[VariableRecall]

It's really critical, especially for new shooters, to help them have a more positive relationship with recoil. For example, I had my dad try out my 20in A2-alike AR build, and he got serviceable groups at 50 yards. Next, I had him try my buddy's RIA 1911, and he wasn't able to get a single round on target in a near 20 inch radius at 5 yards. With my experience with his 1911, I'm able to get about 2 1/2 inch groups at the same distance when I'm pacing myself.

The 1911 platform has a potentially high ceiling for accuracy, with its crisp single action trigger. However, given full power Ball .45 ACP, that could leave the user with a great deal of flinch to overcome.
I suppose the same goes with using revolvers with single action triggers and spicy hot loads as well. If you combine a hot revolver cartridge with double action, and I'm certain that even a recoil buff is going to suffer in accuracy.

I don't have much experience with full-scale high powered calibers, but I could say that I can handle them well enough physically.
I'd say experience is the best way to bring yourself to the standard of accuracy that your firearms can achieve.

[DonHowe]

Recoil is purely physics. How the shooter reacts to recoil is purely subjective. Every shooter has a recoil limit which has nothing to do with physical size. Learned technique and psychology can move that threshold upwards. The trend in recent years toward lighter rifles and bigger cartridge cases does nothing to help matters.
I notice more and more that a sizable percentage of shooters find recoil level above that of 5.56 to be objectionable. If that's the case leave that little black rifle at home occasionally and practice technique with something bigger. That said I do not believe one Has to shoot the biggest thing around.
I have long been grateful Dad taught me to handle a 12ga at 10-12 years old thus helping me avoid learning to fear recoil.

[Daekar]

I cut my shooting teeth with 8mm Mauser and 7.62x54r, so I thought I didn't mind recoil. Then I shot a modern 300 Win Mag and decided that I minded recoil after all.
The worst gun I have ever shot was an old single shot 12 gauge with a 3" chamber and no butt pad. It was light and handy, but hurt almost as much behind the trigger as it did in front of the muzzle. It had beautiful wood and a good trigger despite decades of neglect, but God, it was punishment to shoot.

There is a reason why I chose 357mag for most of my guns...

[Gtek]

Shooting prone there is very little roll one can put into upper torso to disperse energy, it is what it is. The bench is another story, I was blessed with a retired Gunny Sergeant (Gunny George) that took a shine to me and spent hours coaching and mentoring me in all things shooting. The least amount of felt is when you are standing allowing your body to roll off the recoil in your upper body, duplicating this on the bench made the boomers much more enjoyable. Forward hand under front end as if you were standing, back of hand laying on bag. Upper torso as straight vertical as possible and after discharge let your body roll up and off with tight hold and with probably hand lifting off bag as if you were standing. I see guy's basically laying over rifle as if prone or even more on bench, ouch!

[dtknowles]

Thanks for all the replies. I wish we had more threads about shooting.

Tim

[todd9.3x57]

back when i was young and dumb, i used to shoot really big cartridges. i was befriended by an old gunsmith(RIP) and he taught me many things. i was never an apprentice gunsmith, just a shade tree gun tinker, but he'd let shoot the customer's gun in and other little things. i shot a 460 Weatherby mag (customer) in. after 5 or 6 shots, i was done, or rather my shoulder was. i've shot the 416 rigby and remmy, 458 win mag, 375 H&H, 378 weatherby, 375cc?(it was a wildcat and i don't know the name), 404 jeffery and some others. i really like the 416 rigby and the 375 h&h. i hate weatherby cartridges, why on earth would they go faster than necessary!!! the recoil was stout but i didn't mind it (except weatherby cartridges). when i was deer hunting, the '06 i had was small and insignificant to "real calibers".

i'd say it had to 15 or so years later, my friend had a 338RUM and he brought it over to shoot. he gave it to me to shoot...i did (i hit a 2" steel target at 100 yards) and i quickly gave it back to him. my shoulder however, had a bruise quickly forming tho.

i had a stroke about 10 years ago and i had to relearn how to shoot again. i had a hard time closing my eyes and flinching before i shot. but i learned and now i consider myself to be an average shooter. before my stroke, i was an above average shooter. i was NOT an expert shooter or a excellent shooter, just above average shooter.

8 or 9 years ago, cast boolits came onto my screen and to tell the truth, how could i missed them?!:veryconfu i luv them. jacketed bullets be danged!!! i luv cast boolits!!! i no care about how fast cast boolits are. to kill a deer, 1900+/-fps is fast enuff for a 30-40 krag. 1600fps for my 444 and 1700-1800fps for my 35/30-30 and 9.3x57. look out!!! the boolit is a comin, yep, when it gets there........eventually. [smilie=l: yep, its a comin. soon. then there will be heck to pay!!! soon as it gets here.......i got a newspaper if anybody wants it?[smilie=l:

[Milky Duck]

there is a reason we have slip on recoil pads...and a good reason for earmuffs.....and earplugs
we are spoilt as can fit suppressors to our rifles...it is a gamechanger...the 270w with full noise loads,is as mild as the 223 to shoot...and the 223 is like a bare .22lr good technique and hanging on to the foreend like our forefathers did makes a HUGE difference too.... yeah sure some fellas can shoot good groups off a bipod while hugging themselves with free hand..... yeah nah,not this K1W1.... I shoot much better and consistantly with good firm grip of stock.

[Hanzy4200]

I think there is truth on both sides of the argument. Yes, heavier recoil does require more discipline to be equally accurate. So in a sense, recoil does effect accuracy. It can however be overcome and be a non issue.

[GhostHawk]

I would phrase it thus. "Excessive Recoil is the enemy of accuracy".

If it is causing you to flinch, you are not going to hit what you are aiming at.
Pistol or rifle make little difference.

I am vastly more accurate with a .32sw long than a 9mm or a .45acp or a .357mag.
I throttle my .444marlin rounds down to moderate .44mag levels and see increased accuracy.
For punching paper I simply do not need more.

The vast majority of wild Buffalo were shot with black powder and large cast boolits at 1200- 1400 fps. Those would go through a buff the LONG way.

IMO if you have confidence in your load, know that it won't hurt you, and know what the trajectory curve looks like. You have at least the potential for much greater accuracy.

As a 135 lb dripping wet kid I had the chance to drop the hammer on a 35 weatherby magnum once.

I did so, picked myself up off my butt. Handed him back his gun and thanked him for the experience. (Never to be repeated BTW)
He thanked me for not dropping his gun. We both walked away a little wiser.

[Bird]

A few years back, I was testing and working on loads for my winchester 1886 45-70 with 325 grain bullets, and my winchester 71 348 with 200 grain bullets, both off the bench. The 1886 has the crescent butt.
Time was short for testing, and I fired 75 rounds of each, at just about full power, in around 4 hours. I found the accuracy I wanted with the 45-70, but could maybe do a little better with the 348.
After a few rounds I really had to concentrate to take my mind off the recoil.
About 16 months ago, for no apparent reason, I developed shoulder problems, which appears to be a torn rotator cuff. It has been misery, but finally the pain has subsided and I have more movement in my arm, although substantially weakened.
After all that ammo testing, I will not be shooting these loads anymore, and will be lowering velocity to something more sensible.
I often read about people looking for and wanting to shoot high velocity loads in the 45-70, which now seems pure madness. Never again.
When I get back to the range its the 22-250 and 30-30 at low velocity, and anything 308 and above, is staying at home for the near future, its just not worth the pain and the agony.

[popper]

laying over rifle as if prone or even more on bench,
Unfortunately, the way most range benches are set up.
I love shooting at the slymore, Ar range, swing out seat, good table height and position.

[todd9.3x57]

I throttle my .444marlin rounds down to moderate .44mag levels and see increased accuracy.
For punching paper I simply do not need more.


my 444 is a tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel. it will do a 300gr saeco fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron at 1624fps. i have killed (20 thru 60yards) 7 or 8 deer with it. i have used 275gr ranch dogs with h4198 that go in excess of 2300fps. i have killed deer too, but the exit wound was like hamburger. i'm going to use a 280gr wfn gc with rel7 that goes 1937fps. i water quenched the lyman #2 boolit. i guessing that its around 18 -20bhn? but i don't know. its the first time i ever had water quenching the boolit.

i have a win m94 in 35/30-30 that uses a (lyman #2 and a skosh of tin) 200gr rcbs fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1726fps. i have killed (20-50 yards) 3 or 4 deer with it.

i use a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 with a 275gr wfn gc and imr4895 that goes about 1700-1800+/-fps(i forgot the chrony). its killed (20-60 yards) about 3 or 4 deer too.


when i use 2400 or 4895, recoil does not cause me problems. it's a wussy load, i know. but why bother to speed it up? i shoot deer at under 60 yards and after the shot the deer will either DRT or go about 20-30 yards and give up the ghost.

if i shoot at a deer that is over 150 yards away, i'll use my ruger #1 in 270 with 140gr hornady sst. for under 150 yards, its cast boolits and wussy loads. i use wussy loads because of my stroke(right arm/leg are kaput). but i can use warm loads too. the 444 load (280gr wfn gc and rel7) isn't a wussy load or a warm load. it "kicks" like a 8lb 30-06 with 180gr factory loads and that is good enuff for me.

i had about 25-30 bullets of .429" 200gr hornady xtp, so i loaded my 444 up with trail boss and then i shot them at 50 yard target. it grouped like 2 1/2" at 50 yards with all 25-30 cartridges fired. the recoil was that of a 22lr. that got me thinking of mild loads for deer. 20-25 deer later, i'm glad i did!!! cast boolits with a mild load equals dead deer. i shoot the deer behind the front shoulder and it is thru-n-thru. 20-25 dead deer with no recovered boolits is a good deal for me and the rifles.

[Rapier]

Several practices you might try to improve your groups and accuracy at distance.

Rifle team trigger practice. load two dummies bullets, no powder or primers, three loaded rounds. Mix them have second person load them in the mag.
Aim small miss small practice, use the corner of a square with a scope. Verticle to vertical, horizontal to horizontal, hair of light, practice looking at the scope not the target, just like an open sight. 100% filled view, always.
Never rely on the box adjustments, get your load and shoot to get your “actual” click adjustments. Then range the target.
Put range adjustments @25 yard increments on the front bell with a packing tape cover.
Practice reading the wind and the mirage.
Adjust sights always, what adjustments are for, adjusting.

[405grain]

The hardest recoiling rifle that I've ever fired was a Winchester model 70 in 358 Norma Magnum. This particular rifle kicked significantly more than a 458 Winchester magnum that was built on the same action. The reason that the 358 was such a torture devise was the stock configuration, coupled with a steel butt plate. There was more drop at the comb on the 358, so the recoil energy wasn't straight back, but instead it was acting like a prybar levering against your face as it tried to crush your shoulder joint. This wasn't my rifle: it belonged to a buddy of mine. He asked me to help him sight it in because he was an older guy and it was just too punishing for him to shoot more than 2 or 3 times. He'd previously asked another friend to assist him, and that guy got a cut through the eyebrow from the scope on the first shot, and decided that was enough!

I got his rifle on paper, but was only able to get a 3" to 4" group. The rifle was no doubt capable of better accuracy, but under those conditions I wasn't. The next morning I was staring in the bathroom mirror at an ugly bruise all over my right shoulder. It was not a fun experience. What I learned from this was that the configuration of the stock has a direct influence on felt recoil, and when a rifle's putting the hurt on you it's all but impossible to shoot decent groups. Fortunately, to the best of my knowledge the rifle's owner never took it hunting. It turned into a safe queen and he decided to use a 30-30 instead.

[44MAG#1]

Now the question is, what have we learned from this thread? Have we learned anything new?
That is the way I like to look at threads. I am always on the lookout for more knowledge.
What have the posters learned?

[dtknowles]

Now the question is, what have we learned from this thread? Have we learned anything new?
That is the way I like to look at threads. I am always on the lookout for more knowledge.
What have the posters learned?

and maybe what have the lurkers learned from the poster's knowledge?

Tim

[Noah Zark]

I skimmed the replies and totally agree with excessive recoil being possibly detrimental to accuracy (assuming the firearm is more than capable of excellent accuracy).

I would add that a crisp, light to moderate trigger pull is also a major factor in how well a given shooter is accurate with a given firearm.

Case in point: A friend fired my Dan Wesson 1911 in 45 ACP. It has a proverbial "glass rod" let off after a 4.0 lb trigger force is applied. He had no problem hitting what he aimed at with it.

He buys his own 1911, a Springfield Armory "GI" model, and had accuracy trouble right out of the box. The gun had a creepy 7.8 lb trigger pull; it was difficult to sense when the hammer was going to fall. I worked on the trigger pull and removed virtually all creep and reduced the pull to ~4.5 lbs and it transformed the pistol for him. No problems busting claybirds standing on edge at the 25 yd berm, just like he did with my DW.

Same style gun - 1911, same 45 ACP cartridge, but one had a trigger pull almost twice that of the other until worked over, with poor accuracy until the pull was cleaned up and reduced.

If I dry fire a firearm and watch the sights when the hammer or striker falls, if the sights don't shift and stay aligned for me that firearm will usually be accurate (if the bore / crown are good and the ammo is "tuned" to the weapon). If the trigger has creep and is heavy, the sights generally shift as I "pull" the "shot."

Twenty or 25 yrs ago I owned a Walther P5 that had a horrible pull and I had problems hitting anything at any distance. I didn't get the chance to work the trigger and sold it. Two years ago I found another P5, as new in box with four mags, and it had a Dan Wesson-like pull. It shoots as if laser-guided.

Noah

[charlie b]

I've fired some heavy recoil rifles. If I wanted one for hunting I am sure I could use it well. But, now days I just shoot at the range, and usually 50-100 rounds a day. Heavy recoil is just not something I enjoy for that many shots.

With milder recoil I can shoot many more rounds accurately than I can with heavier recoil. Just a matter of fatigue and maintaining concentration.

So, for long range I shoot a 6BR and for more fun I shoot cast in the .308.

[Milky Duck]

here is a great way to find out about flinch........if its your buddy you suspect,all the better,if its you,not so much....get the suspect to shoot at target as per normal BUT get someone else to take fired rifle and reload it for them and then hand it back ready to go..do this 3-4-5 times then instead of a live round,slip in an empty case..... the resounding click while the muzzle is jerked up/down or sideways is absolutely priceless.....and it makes shooter AWARE of what they are doing....accepting the dreaded "starts with F and rhymes with grinch" is first step to beating it..... and its a hard road to follow.

[Big Tom]

I have a different experience. When I was shooting 25 yard bullseye precision international competitions many years ago, the .22 LR was the hardest and the larger the caliber, the tighter the grouping. Human factor with not liking recoil/loud bang, causing flinching of course is becoming a larger factor when shooting bigger calibers.


I could not find a sub-forum on shooting so since this is the most popular sub-forum, I am putting this here.

It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately.

Tim

[waksupi]

It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

[David2011]

I had the pleasure of shooting a long range 300 Win Mag equipped with a JP Recoil Eliminator. It was accurate and the recoil was so mild that shooting dozens of rounds in an afternoon was easy.

[Happy caster]

It is my understanding and belief that recoil happens after the trigger is manipulated. Therefore it shouldn't affect the shot at all. However, anticipation of recoil is a whole other thing, and that is what is being discussed above. In my limited shooting experience, if paper punching, plinking then recoil can be managed. I was told by a wise man that your CORRECT grip on the firearm only happens after the first shot, which then gets adjusted to manage the recoil better. Just my opinion

[GregLaROCHE]

I like a crisp hair trigger. Having to apply more and more pressure will cause me to flinch sometimes.

[dtknowles]

It is my understanding and belief that recoil happens after the trigger is manipulated. Therefore it shouldn't affect the shot at all. However, anticipation of recoil is a whole other thing, and that is what is being discussed above. In my limited shooting experience, if paper punching, plinking then recoil can be managed. I was told by a wise man that your CORRECT grip on the firearm only happens after the first shot, which then gets adjusted to manage the recoil better. Just my opinion

Yes, recoil happens after the trigger is pulled but it happens before the bullet leaves the barrel. If you don't have a consistent grip on the gun shot to shot, there will be an adverse effect on accuracy.

[44MAG#1]

After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?

[todd9.3x57]

After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?


yeah, i kinda agree with that.

i have a friend who is 6'5" and weighs about 280lbs and he is scared to death of a 30-30 because it "kicks" too much. he uses a rem m700 bdl in 243.

i know there is somewhere a woman or a girl that is 5' nuthin and weighs about 100-110lbs that just luvs her 375 H&H and recoil doesn't bother her.

"back in the day,":lol::lol: when i was young and dumb and doing somethings for my gunsmith(RIP) that included shooting a customer's rifle in because "it wasn't accurate or some other bull-puckey." he gave me a Weatherby mark 5, i think, in 460 Weatherby mag and a box of cartridges. he tells me something like "go to the range, shoot it 5 times at the target, bring the gun and the target back." so i did and it was 1 1/4 - 3/8"(i think) at 100 yards/bench and 5 shots. by the way, i was in a standing only bench that the gunsmith made up and there was 3 sandbags/ 1 at the back and 2 in the front. that rifle "kicked" and when was done at target range, my shoulder was quickly becoming black and blue. the gunsmith told and showed the customer what i did, but he just didn't believe me and he and the gun both walked out.

i liked shooting the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby. recoil was stout, but manageable. heck i even did a 458 win mag one time and again, recoil was stout, but manageable. my gunsmith had a 375 wildcat that was based off the 404 Jefferies. after fire-forming, it almost looked like 375 H&H mag but without the belt. i just can't remember the name.......

[charlie b]

After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?

Yep.

A good friend loved heavy rifles. The lightest loads he considered were full bore .45-70. He had a double, not sure if it was a .500 or .577 Nitro Express, that he thought was a great gun to plink with. He and his brother owned many such rifles, bolt, single shot and the big double. They also owned the land for a 600yd shooting range and frequently shot those rifles at the longer ranges.

He was about 5'5" and weighed in at around 150lb. Retired attack pilot (F-105 to the F-111).

PS The other side of the coin is that extended shooting with heavy recoil can have an effect on the body. Taffin was a good example for heavy pistol shooting. Some of the military snipers have had shoulder troubles after prolonged shooting of the heavier calibers.

[David2011]

I’ve been injured by heavy handgun recoil. Back in the early ‘80s the gun writers were publishing the hot load of the month for the Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. My buddy and I had to try them all. Slinging 290 grain boolits, lots of them, at supersonic velocities gave me tendonitis in my strong hand elbow. I was young and didn’t use good judgment. It took months to heal with no handgun shooting for the interim. From that experience I would conclude that there are physical limits to recoil tolerance that are unrelated to flinching or other mental disciplines of shooting.

[fredj338]

I could not find a sub-forum on shooting so since this is the most popular sub-forum, I am putting this here.

It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately.

Tim
This is only true if one is sensitive to recoil. I used to shoot full power 265gr 44 loads for met sil. With iron sights i could shoot about 8” groups at 220y off a rest. I have a 404jeffery, pretty decent kick, it will shout 1” groups at 100y off a rest.

[fredj338]

After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?
100% Though not everyone can handle it. For me, 500s&w mag in a 7-8” revo is fine, 4” 44mag, fine. My 404jefery in 11.5# rig, fine, 458 lott in 10.5#, not so much.

[DonHowe]

It Is easier to shoot accurately with small mild recoiling cartridges. However, one cannot always shoot the mildest recoiling cartridge unless only plinking or shooting small bore competition with. 22 rimfire. "Use enough gun" is still good advice. Whether match shooting or hunting a person is free to is free to use the smallest caliber/cartridge that is legal. I will contend that doing so because it is legal does not Ean it is always the best choice. Some shooting disciplines require the use of harder recoiling cartridges. Of course a person is free to just not participate.

The trend in competition is to ever-smaller cartridges like 6XC, 6. 5Creedmoor, etc - even. 223 at 1000yds. Some folks talk as though the matches were never won when what they had was bigger, harder kicking cartridges. To the contrary, if memory serves correctly, Carlos Hathcock won the Wimbledon with a. 300Winchester magnum.
It CAN BE DONE; its a matter of whether a person wants to badly enough (in most cases).

There are physical issues that mandate less recoil. I personally have had for several years an eye condition which could result in a detached retina. I only have one eye so some of my favorite rifles went away. But I miss them, kick and all.

O

[dtknowles]

This is only true if one is sensitive to recoil. I used to shoot full power 265gr 44 loads for met sil. With iron sights i could shoot about 8” groups at 220y off a rest. I have a 404jeffery, pretty decent kick, it will shout 1” groups at 100y off a rest.

I disagree. Even if you are not recoil sensitive, a gun with less recoil is easier to shoot accurately than one with more recoil. A gun with less recoil is also easier to make follow up shots as the gun and shooter recover from the recoil faster. I am not talking about people who flinch or jerk the trigger I am talking about people who have good shooting habits.
TEK

[44MAG#1]

I disagree. Even if you are not recoil sensitive, a gun with less recoil is easier to shoot accurately than one with more recoil. A gun with less recoil is also easier to make follow up shots as the gun and shooter recover from the recoil faster. I am not talking about people who flinch or jerk the trigger I am talking about people who have good shooting habits.
TEK

The original post went:. "It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately."
Now, I didn't see any qualifiers but the ones mentioned. If one wants to add qualifiers to make more of a point that they are correct in their belief that is okay. But they weren't in the original post. So, only if the shooter lets the recoil bother them will it cause inaccuracy.

[Milky Duck]

The original post went:. "It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately."
Now, I didn't see any qualifiers but the ones mentioned. If one wants to add qualifiers to make more of a point that they are correct in their belief that is okay. But they weren't in the original post. So, only if the shooter lets the recoil bother them will it cause inaccuracy.

seeing your tag line...... the decimal system works well because it ties all three units of measurement together...length,mass and weight...
if you take the 1000kg /1mt to begin with as its easiest to explain...it is infact a water weight of 1 cubic meter...so your average everday IPC container you see everywhere measuring 1mx1mx1m thus weight mass/size and diamention are tied together a litre of water weighs 1kg and measures 10cmx10cmx10cm I sow fertilizer for a living so work wit hbulk density all day long......


back on topic...... heavy rifles and little cartridges are easy to shoot well..... heavy recoiling cartridges in little rifles are not so easy.....
even my .223 remington is EASIER to shoot well if in its hardwood stock than the stupidly light pauliwinna wood one I made for it.... I can still shoot it well in lightweight stock,but I have to concentrate MORE on form and holding rifle firmly....NO WAY could I shoot it well in lightweight mode using the bipod and hug yourself /crossed arm/offhand of buttstock method.

[MarkP]

I noticed several years ago after shooting a 250 rounds or so with my 12 ga then switching to 28 ga the same day I had a slight recoil anticipation when I fired the first shot in the 28 ga. I was so surprised. Also noticed going the other direction shooting a few hundred 28 ga then switching to the 12 ga I almost dropped the 12 ga due to the unexpected recoil. Had a lesser grip when shooting the 28 ga.

Back then I would practice shooting a Rem 700 MNT in 300 Wby off-hand with a Tee shirt on and thought nothing of it.

I was at a Cowboy Silhouette match and was watching a guy shoot a Marlin in 45-70; When he hit one of the hogs it flew backwards, so I looked at his loads and they were 40+ gr of IMR 4064. Most shooters were using pistol cartridges. He had one that failed to fire, he had the worst flinch I have ever seen. Recoil does more than most think.

[DonHowe]

I noticed several years ago after shooting a 250 rounds or so with my 12 ga then switching to 28 ga the same day I had a slight recoil anticipation when I fired the first shot in the 28 ga. I was so surprised. Also noticed going the other direction shooting a few hundred 28 ga then switching to the 12 ga I almost dropped the 12 ga due to the unexpected recoil. Had a lesser grip when shooting the 28 ga

In my opinion 12 is The gauge due to it's wider and shorter shot column for a given shot wreght. But, and that is a big But, the Brits have always had the right idea in terms of 12ga loads. Our 12ga low brass loads are more powerful than traditional Brit upland game loads and high brass 2 3/4" ammunition turns the typical 12ga gun into a cannon by comparison. And that is saying nothing of 2 3/4", 3" or 3 1/2" loads
I'm thinking maybe makers of 12ga mini shells are reinventing the wheel.

[rustyshooter]

After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?

Agreed. I’m surprised muscle memory has not been mentioned here. My dad saw lots of combat in WWII and he learned to rely heavily on it. Whether in distance fighting M1 Garand, moderate range M1 carbine or hand to hand with the Colt .45. Is recoil not an after affect? Seems to me in competition shooting or hunting (one shot) that boolit is on the way by the time recoil happens. In repeat firing familiarity of your gun and muscle memory are your best assets. And from learning from a battle hardened WWII 1st Lt. Army Ranger Forward Observer that fired thousands of rounds both in his training and in the field I too have been able to learn recoil and muscle memory. One other bit of advice I was given at about age 12 was to “always aim for the torso, don’t go for the dramatic head shot”. In summary, become intimate with your firearm and shoot. ALOT imho