What powder would be best for light weight 9mm loads out of PCC 10.5" barrel?

[CZbob9]

I'm wanting to work up to max velocity out of my 10.5 PCC. Which powders would you guys start off with for 90gr XTP bullets?

[Ben]

Do you have any loading manuals ?

[CZbob9]

Do you have any loading manuals ?

Yes a few. But I was wondering outside of the box if anyone would suggest something. Power Pistol and Blue Dot are among the ones mentioned in my books, Power Pistol is number 49 on the burn chart and Blue Dot is 71 so that is a wide range of rate of burn. I was wondering is what about other powders since the barrel is longer than typical 9mm pistols. I have a lot of 2400 which is only 5 spots away from Blue Dot on the burn chart and also curious about LongShot.

[anothernewb]

it's all about the kind of performance you are aiming for.

light bullets and fast powders go hand in hand. Any of the speedy powders in the bullseye/zip/clays/WST/titegroup area will work.

Caveat - they are for efficiency and target velocities. you're not going to safely make top velocity loads with them. What you do get is a lot of rounds per pound of powder

PP/2400/BD/LongShot are generally for heavier bullets and full power loads. If you're chasing max velocity - then you'll need to stick to the slower powders.

[CZbob9]

it's all about the kind of performance you are aiming for.

light bullets and fast powders go hand in hand. Any of the speedy powders in the bullseye/zip/clays/WST/titegroup area will work.

Caveat - they are for efficiency and target velocities. you're not going to safely make top velocity loads with them. What you do get is a lot of rounds per pound of powder

PP/2400/BD/LongShot are generally for heavier bullets and full power loads. If you're chasing max velocity - then you'll need to stick to the slower powders.

I'm wanting absolute max velocity in this setup. The gun is a Kalashnikov KP9 so I don't think pressure will be the issue I think since it is a blowback the issue will be keeping the bolt closed during the full burn cycle. Maybe too slow of a burn will have fireballs out of the ejection port.

[anothernewb]

go with the slower powders then. power pistol/longshot. maybe BE86 or HS6.

though anything slow will likely leave some unburned powder. 231 might not be a terrible place to start. kinda in the middle.

There was a PCC shootout awhile back and they found some of the faster powders actually got a better velocity due to the open bolt and burn efficiency. IIRC 231 was among the top.

[P Flados]

I ran a Quickload table to see what powders produce best predicted velocities in a 10.5" gun with your desired bullet and a pressure of 32,000 psi. First I left the AOL at the default number that came up and the results did not make sense. I shortened it to 1.05". Note that this is NOT tested Load data, but a comparison to show which powders you should consider.

With only a 100 fps spread for the top dozen or so loads shown, any of these powders is really "pretty good". Any of these velocities probably greatly exceed what this bullet is designed for.



Cartridge : 9 mm Luger (SAAMI)
Bullet : .355, 115, Hornady FMJ/RN ENC 35557
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.050 inch = 26.67 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm

Matching Maximum Pressure: 32000 psi, or 220 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant POWER PISTOL 105.0 5.9 0.38 1422 89.7 30987 1866 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D037.1 101.3 7.8 0.50 1408 78.9 32000 1834 0.832 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.7 102.0 7.8 0.50 1408 78.9 32000 1834 0.832 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D036 79.6 5.8 0.38 1384 92.6 32000 1660 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5 79.6 5.8 0.38 1384 92.6 32000 1659 0.841 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot 83.0 5.9 0.38 1372 96.4 32000 1556 0.845 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BULLSEYE 92.7 4.4 0.28 1370 100.0 32000 1435 0.842 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6 86.5 6.1 0.39 1367 94.6 32000 1567 0.848 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Silhouette 87.3 5.4 0.35 1364 99.4 32000 1462 0.846 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 540 80.0 5.9 0.38 1364 96.5 32000 1527 0.849 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot True Blue 81.3 5.9 0.38 1363 96.4 32000 1529 0.849 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WAP 87.6 5.4 0.35 1363 99.2 32000 1467 0.847 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N37 105.0 5.8 0.37 1358 96.1 29642 1569 0.863
Alliant UNIQUE 105.0 4.8 0.31 1356 99.9 29504 1462 0.870
Vihtavuori N330 100.9 4.7 0.30 1337 100.0 32000 1208 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N340 104.0 4.9 0.32 1336 100.0 32000 1324 0.857 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Universal 99.8 4.5 0.29 1336 100.0 32000 1247 0.863 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S020 96.4 4.8 0.31 1331 100.0 32000 1270 0.859 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N350 105.0 5.4 0.35 1309 95.3 27141 1477 0.895
Lovex S030 93.0 4.6 0.30 1302 99.9 32000 1236 0.870 ! Near Maximum !
Maxam CSB 2 105.0 4.5 0.29 1299 100.0 28701 1147 0.893
Lovex D037.2 Heavy Pistol 105.0 8.0 0.52 1298 68.2 28318 1598 0.897
Accurate Solo 1250 104.9 4.4 0.29 1297 100.0 32000 1136 0.869 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.2 94.4 4.4 0.29 1292 98.7 32000 1278 0.875 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 231 83.1 4.5 0.29 1290 100.0 32000 1122 0.874 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Zip 74.6 4.5 0.29 1290 100.0 32000 1122 0.874 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9 105.0 7.9 0.51 1283 67.6 27311 1574 0.910
Hodgdon HP38 73.7 4.4 0.28 1282 100.0 32000 1095 0.877 ! Near Maximum !
Maxam CSB 3 102.5 4.2 0.27 1275 100.0 32000 1055 0.879 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant GREEN DOT 101.1 4.0 0.26 1270 100.0 32000 1062 0.888 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N320 96.8 4.0 0.26 1268 100.0 32000 1023 0.883 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D032 66.3 3.9 0.26 1262 100.0 32000 1090 0.885 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Nitro 100 97.3 3.6 0.23 1260 100.0 32000 1052 0.887 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D013 97.3 3.6 0.23 1260 100.0 32000 1052 0.887 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S011 83.9 4.0 0.26 1257 100.0 32000 1039 0.885 ! Near Maximum !
Maxam CSB 4 98.1 3.9 0.25 1252 100.0 32000 1001 0.889 ! Near Maximum !
Maxam CSB 1 105.0 4.4 0.28 1248 100.0 28330 1073 0.913
Alliant HERCO 105.0 4.7 0.30 1243 96.2 22186 1413 0.979
Alliant RED DOT 102.3 3.6 0.23 1240 100.0 32000 990 0.902 ! Near Maximum !

[jcren]

I have excellent results with cfe pistol for 45 and 380 in pistol and carbine. Mellow, low flash but excellent velocity (380 faster than hornady defense or sig v-crown factory ammo at max standard book load, pistol and carbine) and very clean burning. Light bullet loads can be hard to get slow powders to burn completly and 10" is not really long enough to burn finicky magnum powders without a heavy stopper to get things heated up.

[CZbob9]

What about 9 Major loadings?

[CZbob9]

And I cant help but think 2400 would be a interesting experiment here with magnum primers. Maybe even Lil Gun.

[anothernewb]

The trouble the test had with getting high velocities out of PCC's was the bolt. it doesn't function like a locked breech in a pistol, you have to weigh burn time and speed against the simple mass of the bolt. can't generate pressure peaks like a locked breech can. slower powders were throwing fire out the bolt IIRC.

Wish I could find that link. was an interesting video.

[gwpercle]

My suggestion , with that 10" bbl taken into consideration ... Accurate #7

The unlocked , blowback action might work better with a heavier boolit , 90 grs. is light and the boolit weight will affect the actions cycle . The blowback action is designed to operate with a narrow range of boolit weights and velocities ... load a few and test cycling , From my experience Accurate #7 should give you one of the higher velocities with the long barrel without being too slow .
Post #7 shows it to be in the top of it's powder class ... and Accurate powders used to be available , as of yesterday . If you already have some Accurate #5 on hand , that might be worth a try ...
A powder on the bench is worth two powders you don't have .

Keep us posted ,
Gary

[CZbob9]

The trouble the test had with getting high velocities out of PCC's was the bolt. it doesn't function like a locked breech in a pistol, you have to weigh burn time and speed against the simple mass of the bolt. can't generate pressure peaks like a locked breech can. slower powders were throwing fire out the bolt IIRC.




The unlocked , blowback action might work better with a heavier boolit , 90 grs. is light and the boolit weight will affect the actions cycle . The blowback action is designed to operate with a narrow range of boolit weights and velocities ...

Keep us posted ,
Gary

I keep forgetting about that. I think you guys could be right and the slower stuff would cause issues. A heavier recoil spring might be worth looking into.

[mnewcomb59]

Power Pistol burns great in my Camp 9. I think the worries about bolt weight are pretty much unfounded unless you are using a light weight buffer in an AR. Any powder that can reach 30-35k PSI will be just fine in the blowback. If you have a case full of really slow powder like AA #9, lets say about 7.5 grains, and it only gets to 20k max PSI then you might get some flame at the ejection port.

If you do run into issues you need to increase bolt weight, not spring weight. Springs add virtually zero inertia and won't stop a blowback from unlocking early. As little as 3-5% bolt weight increase will add a noticable amount of time to the cycle and delay extraction.

Power Pistol can get 115 grain jacketed bullets up to about 1550 fps in a 16" and the 10.5" probably only loses 30-50 fps. With faster powders and jacketed bullets you might find that the 10.5" is 10-50 fps faster because of barrel friction. Power Pistol, BE-86 and AA #7 can all do really well in multiple 16" blowback carbines and can shoot 95 gr at about 1700 fps, 115 at 1550 fps, 124 at 1450 fps and 147 at about 1200 fps.

[gwpercle]

I keep forgetting about that. I think you guys could be right and the slower stuff would cause issues. A heavier recoil spring might be worth looking into.

After reading this thread again and doing more thinking , taking the blow back action into consideration ... I first thought Accurate #7 would be "the best" powder ... but something a little faster like Accurate #5 might be "the best" or better .
Lately I've seen some Accurate powders at local dealer's ... if you don't have any they might be "obtainable" somewhere .
After the last shortage , Accurate powders were the first to show up on my local dealer's shelf and he had a "sale" ... I stocked up deep on Accurate #2 , #5 and #7 .
Good luck ,
Gary

[44Blam]

AA5 or AA7 might just work. My bet is that AA5 would be better.

[1006]

HS-6 and a rifle primer

[recumbent]

231 works good.

[lar45]

Compressed Bluedot works great in the 9mm. I don't have any experience with a blowback 9mm though...

[Hanzy4200]

I send W231. Just curious, why hyper speed 90 gr? Never heard of anyone trying for this. Just curious.

[CZbob9]

I grabbed some Longshot the other day, going to try it out.


I send W231. Just curious, why hyper speed 90 gr? Never heard of anyone trying for this. Just curious.

If I can get it anywhere close to 2,000fps that will cause quite a bit of stopping power I think