My First Post; I Need a Little Help

[billmc2]

Hi, I'm relatively new to hand loading and absolutely new to casting and loading cast bullets. I'm working with my first mold. It is an Arsenal Mold, in brass, for a 98 gr Kieth SWC, 32 cal. The revolver I'll be shooting this in is a Charter Arms Undercoverette, 32 H&R Magnum.

I have a Redding T7 turret press and I'm using a Redding Premium Die set; its the one with the micrometer bullet seating stem (only Redding 32 available at the time I was buying). I've cast some bullets and powder coated them with Powderbuythepound Super Durable Wet Black. I'm trying to load 32 S&W Long in new Starline brass which I have trimmed to a length off 0.910.

The problem I'm having is that I can not get a consistant overall length. I'll setup the die and seating stem and I'll get the length I'm looking for. Without changing anything with the dies, the next bullet will not be the same length as the original. Some times they are to long and I can't get the bullet to seat down to size by trying to seat it again, sometimes they will come up to short.

For the life of me I can not figure out what I'm doing wrong. The only possible problem I can think of is the powder coating; but even that isn't thick enough to cause what I'm seeing. Sometimes I have a difference up to 0.010.

This is the only die set I have that has the micrometer adjustment. Any insights to what I may be doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.

[Winger Ed.]

Welcome to the forum.

If your seating stem has a cone shaped hole instead of a flat surface that contacts the boolit nose-- that's pretty normal.
I'm not sure exactly why, it just is.

As far as practical accuracy, it doesn't matter much.
If you're shooting for the Bianchi Cup,,,,
I'd go ahead and segregate them out and just use those that are exactly the same.

[oley55]

welcome to the forum Bill.

I've encountered the same problem without resolution, but have wondered if it was a case of not using the right expander and the brass wasn't allowing the boolits to seat uniformly. Depending on your alloy the seating stem could be compressing the bullet slightly, or they are springing back. The grip or compression around the base of the boolit is my best guess. Is this older many times fired brass that may need some annealing?? Just throwing stuff out there...

again welcome aboard.

[Dusty Bannister]

If you seated the bullets without powder coating you probably would not be having this issue. The variations of powder coating is what is giving you the random seating depth. A thicker coating on the ogive results in the seating stem having a different position and the Cartridge OAL changes. Look closely at the ogive on the cast bullet and see if you notice a little difference in where the seating stem presses on the bullet as you seat it. I am not familiar with the type of die you are using but over time, debris build up on the seating stem can also affect cartridge OAL. I do not do PC, but I have seen some bullets that look like they have a very thin plating and others that look like they have been dipped in thick paint. The thicker the coating, the more likely random OAL will occur. Especially if you just lay them in a tray instead of setting them on their bases.

[Willie T]

Use a flat seating stem on a semi wadcutter and your OAL should tighten up.

[billmc2]

Thanks for the troubleshooting tips.

First all the brass is new and unfired; I'm using Starline brass.

The seating stem is coned shaped. I tried looking at some of the powder coated bullets and couldn't see any kind of marks on the ogives. I did seat a bullet that was not powder coated. I ran it into the die several times, sneaking up on the length. When I took a close look at this bullet I noticed that closer to the tip, the bullet was shinnyer. I looked a little closer and I could see and feel a very slight edge being caused by the seating stem.

I only have the one seating stem in this caliber. I took a look on Midway and discovered that had a micrometer seating stem in 32 S&W that was made for use with flat nosed bullets, so I ordered it. Midway says it should arrive on 8/8. Between now and then I'll need to cast and coat some more bullets, I'm almost out of the previous batch. This will give me some more experience in casting and coating the bullets.

I'm not sure how to go about coating the bullets with a more consistant, thinner powder coat. I'll need to spend some time in that forum and see what I can pick up.

I do have some 100 gr .312 XTP bullets that I'm guessing will work with the cone seating stem. The Hornady book only gives loads for this weight in 32 H&R Mag. That caliber will come after I have some success with the 32 Long.

Thanks for all the help.

[fredj338]

For best results, i seat & crimp in separate steps. This would require separate seating & crimping dies if youndont want to keep adjusting.

[Bird]

Go ahead and shoot them. When you get your new seater, you will be able to compare the results. I doubt you will see much difference, if any at all.

[Land Owner]

About this post:
1.) I went through the Classics and Stickies and found the linked "gem" for making a table, which works VERY WELL:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?17562-Tables&p=196538&viewfull=1#post196538

To the point:
2.) The 32 caliber, 98 gr. Keith SWC, in 32 H&R Magnum is a very-small payload, in a very-small case, in a very-small cartridge, in which reloading measurements (as highlighted) are observed in very-small amounts - and I thought my 380 ACP was small.

Overthinking it, I wrote it out (below - bear with me), took out my caliper, made sure of zero, opened the jaws to ten (10) one-thousandths of an inch, held it up to a strong background light, and saw it for what it is. Ten (10) one-thousandths of an inch is a very-small measurement.

The human hair is about 75 microns in width. A "micron" (one one-millionth of a meter) is about 0.00004 inches. So, 75 microns (a human hair) is about 0.003" (three one-thousandths of an inch). An 8.5" x 11" sheet of "20#" printer paper is about 0.004" thick. I'll leave it to you to look up what "20#" paper means.

I believe you are overthinking the cartridge OAL dimensions, which imo for your measurements, should have no ill effect on performance. What does your gun say, on target, about your reloaded rounds?

3.) WELCOME to the forums!


1.0000 One
Ten tenths
One hundred one-hundredths
One thousand one-thousandths
Ten thousand ten-thousandths

0.1000 One tenth
Ten one-hundredths
One hundred one-thousandths
One thousand ten-thousandths

0.0100 One one-hundredth
Ten one-thousandths
One hundred ten-thousandths

0.0010 One one-thousandth
Ten ten-thousandths

0.0001 One ten-thousandth

[justindad]

For best results, i seat & crimp in separate steps. This would require separate seating & crimping dies if youndont want to keep adjusting.

I have the Redding Premium die set for .357Mag. When I load the NOE-360-160-WFN, I get consistent COAL (within +/- 0.001”). When I load the Lyman 358439, I get results like yours (COAL within +/- 0.010”). The small diameter meplat, hollow point Lyman boolit gets deformed by the seating stem (boolit deformed, crimp groove consistently located = variable COAL). Crimping over the front driving band on the Lyman boolit makes the situation worse. My solution is to add the Redding profile crimp die and use two operations for seating and crimping. I also expect my brass to last longer with the profile crimp die (no more shaving brass). I use the profile crimp die for .45 Colt and like it there. I have yet to confirm this makes my .357 COAL more consistent, because I spent most of July in Vietnam. I’ll try to remember to update here in a week or two.

[mdi]

May not be accurate enough for some "I just wanna know" questions but practical; seat the bullets to the crimp groove and disregard book OAL. In 1970 (waaay pre web) I started loading 38 Special with 158 gr. LRN bullets. I seated all bullets to the same place, by eye, with the case mouth just under the upper edge of the crimp groove. Since then having reloaded several thousand cast revolver bullets I have had zero problems and have produced some very accurate handloads. When I did measure OAL with bullets seated to the crimp groove I rarely got the same OAL dimension as my manuals listed...

[billmc2]

I do seem to have a "thing" for precision; I think this is because of the tolerances needed in the electronics I worked on for years. In March I learned that I have diabetes; I've been working on getting blood sugar to the amount specified and sometimes get frustrated with it. I've been told that readings 20 points from the target are good enough; to me that seems to be much to large.

The gun is new and I haven't found much 32 cal ammo, so casting and loading my own is the way I've decided to go. Right now I'm trying to generate a series of loads which run from minimum to maximum charges, in 0.1 gr increments, as listed in the 4th edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, to see which ones will work best in this revolver. For establishing a base line, I'd like to be as exacting as possible. Afterwards I could tolerate a greater variance.

I'm using Accurate No 5 and the listing for the Saeco #326 100 gr bullet. Curiously, the listing for 32 H&R Magnum for the same bullet and powder charges as the 32 S&W Long, show different velocities. The only difference is the barrels used to generate the data. For the 32 S&W Long they used a S&W Model 31. For the 32 Mag a longer Universal Receiver. I wrote to Lyman and asked them about this. They told me that what is printed in the book is correct but they'll take another look at it the next time they are testing.

I'd like to match these loads as close as I can and see what happens in my gun.

In other loads I've made I've found the Redding gear which I'm using to be very precise and repeatable, so I'd expect this to be the case with these loads as well.

Redding makes a shim which I can place under the locking ring on the die. This shim will raise the die high enough so that the crimp doesn't come into play. I can seat all the bullets then remove the seating stem and shim and go back and apply the crimp. This might be a little slower than separate dies to seat and crimp but it also doesn't cost as much as an extra die.

[billmc2]

May not be accurate enough for some "I just wanna know" questions but practical; seat the bullets to the crimp groove and disregard book OAL. In 1970 (waaay pre web) I started loading 38 Special with 158 gr. LRN bullets. I seated all bullets to the same place, by eye, with the case mouth just under the upper edge of the crimp groove. Since then having reloaded several thousand cast revolver bullets I have had zero problems and have produced some very accurate handloads. When I did measure OAL with bullets seated to the crimp groove I rarely got the same OAL dimension as my manuals listed...

Because I don't have the exact mold specified I'm trying to do something similar and discover the OAL for this particular load. My intent is to find a reasonable OAL then round that to the nearest 0.005.

The OAL specified for the Saeco mold is quite a bit different from the Arsenal Mold that I have. If I seat to the length specified for the Seaco mold I'm way beyond the crimp grove for this bullet.

[Shawlerbrook]

Welcome ! I also seat and crimp separately.

[Minerat]

Are you crimping when seating in one step or seating then crimping? If so that may be your problem.

I use hot glue in round seating stems to make custom stem shapes by putting a little sizing lube on a seated bullet and filling the stem with hot glue then pushing the bullet into the hot glue and let it set. You can get the hot glue out when you want to use the original shape again. Like what is done with sizing stems.

[gpidaho]

Welcome to the forum.

If your seating stem has a cone shaped hole instead of a flat surface that contacts the boolit nose-- that's pretty normal.
I'm not sure exactly why, it just is.

As far as practical accuracy, it doesn't matter much.
If you're shooting for the Bianchi Cup,,,,
I'd go ahead and segregate them out and just use those that are exactly the same.

Good points made here. I too own a Charter Arms 32 H&R mag and shoot the very similar Saeco #326. Crimping as a separate step is always a good idea. This said, although the Charter Arms is an adequate defensive hand gun it's not a Biachi cup winning revolver. Far more variables to consider than a few thousandths difference in over all length. I also own and like the Redding micrometer seating dies and some calibers of powder coated bullets work better in them than others as they were designed primarily for jacketed bullets. Run a range test at your favorite shooting distance with bullets sorted to the same over all length and some with the greatest variance and report back your results and also let me welcome you to the forum. Gp

[Land Owner]

Right now I'm trying to generate a series of loads which run from minimum to maximum charges, in 0.1 gr increments...
To save yourself some expense and "grief" (not time though), trial charges no closer than 0.50 or 1.0 grains apart (if there is a lot of spread), from min. to max. make sense. Keep notes on which charge(s) tend toward best accuracy. The chart(s) of Powder Charge ("X" axis) vs. Accuracy ("Y" axis) will look like Graph #1 or #2 below (for a rifle).

Go back to the reloading bench and work up loads at 0.1 or 0.2 grains on either side of the best "local minimum" from Graph #1 or #2 to find the best relative minimum Graph #3.

This is a means of trying multiple powders too without wasting primers, boolits, and powder.

GRAPH #1
https://i.postimg.cc/9fsXQbs3/ACCURACY_[2].jpg


GRAPH #2
https://i.postimg.cc/TwmdLmXK/ACCURACY_[3].jpg


GRAPH #3
https://i.postimg.cc/nrJHvzH0/ACCURACY_[4].jpg

[Land Owner]

Never mind...CARRY ON!

I went to my Lyman 4th Edition. which I should have done to start, and for Accurate powder there are ONLY 0.5 grains from min. to max. So much "to do" about nothing in my post above...sorry about that. The method does work for rifles though, with significantly larger spreads in min. to max.

[Sig]

Redding makes a shim which I can place under the locking ring on the die. This shim will raise the die high enough so that the crimp doesn't come into play. I can seat all the bullets then remove the seating stem and shim and go back and apply the crimp. This might be a little slower than separate dies to seat and crimp but it also doesn't cost as much as an extra die.

Buy a separate crimp die. That shim thing is going to get old real fast. I like the Redding profile crimp as well.