Best Big Bore Cartridge

[sutherpride59]

All,

I've been on a kick here recently of wanting to buy a big bore single shot rifle. Either a break barrel CVA Scout in 45-70 or a Ruger American in 450 bushmaster. I have been bouncing between 45-70 and 450 Bushmaster. I know whatever 450 Bushmaster can do the 45-70 can do better but I don't see a need to load that darn hot anyway. My question is what is the best option for cast lead bullets? I have read just about every thread I can on the subject and the most I'm getting relates to ARs in 450 and I'm not finding any detailed threads about the CVA V2 Scout in 45-70. I'd love to know if anyone has had good accuracy out of either of these and with what mold.

Also, for full power rounds I assume I will need to gas check the rounds for either caliber but I have been wrong before. Is gas checking going to be necessary or just load dependent?

Sorry if this comes off stupid. I've been casting for a while now but never thought about moving into the big bore rifle world.

Any advice is greatly appreciated y'all.

[megasupermagnum]

If you want a an inexpensive big bore rifle, get a big bore rifle. The H&R Tracker II is rifled, and can be had in either 12 or 20 gauge. If you want a 45 caliber, I'd go for the Henry single shot. Mines not in 45-70, but accuracy is phenomenal. You can be sure it will shoot at least 1.5 MOA. I've seen numerous reports of surprising accuracy with plainbase bullets in 45-70 up around 1700-1800 fps.

[Pereira]

Well, I own a pair of 444's and have no use or info on the other two.:sad::lol:
The 320+ gr pill I cast is Hell on dogs and deer.

RP

[HWooldridge]

I know nothing about the 450 Bushmaster but have owned a multitude of 45-70's over the last 40 years. There is a reason it's still around...

[Kosh75287]

1.) I don't think your post/question is stupid. But I think your question seems to ask if we should advise you to invest in oranges or apples. Both lovely examples of fruit, but hardly interchangeable.

The 2 rifles don't seem very similar, so I guess it's a question of what your intended purpose for one or the other might be. All OTHER factors being equal, I'D be inclined to go with the CVA in .45-70. Properly loaded, it'll drop any game animal in the western hemisphere, and a great portion of African game. With a scope (at least for ME), it's a 300 yard rifle, depending on the load, and your shoulder's willingness to tolerate the recoil.
Ballistically, the .450 Bushmaster appears to be a 200 yard round. Its main advantage seems to be that it delivers serious short(er) range game-getting power in an AR platform. If you already have an AR-whatever, I would THINK that another upper in .450 Bush could be had, and would make a fairly unobtrusive "brush thumper" in a platform with which you are already quite familiar.
The CVA in .45-70 will deliver serious ballistic "thump" to a target at any range at which you can connect, but it offers no fast follow-up shot. The .450 B'master starts with ballistics equal to the .358 Winchester at the muzzle, but its projectile will shuck velocity quickly. At 150 yards and beyond, the .358 would have a clear advantage, and so would the .45-70. On the other hand, a fast follow-up shot IS possible, if needed.

[FredBuddy]

I'd go 45-70. Can load mild to wild.
What will be the availability of brass,
dies etc. of 450B in a few years?
Tried to feed a 450 Marlin lately?
Don't need GC's for 45-70, powder
coating and paper patching are
options, as are lever, bolt and
single shot rifles.

[sutherpride59]

Wow! Lots of replies in short order! Thanks for the info guys. I guess the biggest bother for me was there isn't a lot of info on cast boolits in the 450 bushmaster and the few things I found about 45-70 cast in the CVA said the accuracy was a little disappointing. I think if I could get around 2" groups at 100 I would be pretty happy with that. I just don't want to put a lot of effort into reloading and get poop. One post mentioned that the CVA barrel has gain rifling and that it doesn't work well with cast boolits. I couldn't find any information to confirm that but I'll research anything to death before I actually do it.

I guess it would be best to wait for a CVA in 45-70 to pop up in my area. Seems like since I became interested CVA either stopped producing them or they have all been snatched up.

I thought about 450 bushmaster AR upper but from all the reading they aren't worth the hassle unless you buy a top dollar upper from Tromix. Seems like the others just don't run worth a flip.

[sutherpride59]

Welp too late, I'm impulsive, I bought the CVA 45-70 :bigsmyl2:. I guess tonight I'll have to buy dies and a new mold. Thanks for all the info y'all.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Unless you intend on getting an AR-15 in 450 Bushmaster there's no reason to get one. I think you made a great choice. Lee makes six different moulds for the caliber and several are historical copies.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I too like my "Big Bores" including the 577 Snider!

https://i.imgur.com/0b7mFCpl.jpg

[Daekar]

You made the right choice. I would expect lead bullets to work extremely well with gain twist rifling because they will be less likely to strip out.

[BLAHUT]

I shoot a 45/70 in compitision and have them for hunting. Don't need to load to acheave light speed 500 gr out of a roling block 1200fps super accurate out to 1000yds> 45/70 works just fine in lever gun for deer with a 500gr flat nose bullet or as a bear load.. All pure lead> have a 45/60 lever for hunting deer> none are gaschecked> don't need if you stay under 1200 fps>

[pworley1]

You won't be sorry you got the 45 70.

[44Blam]

I've got an 1895 with a MVA staff sight. I've been able to hit 2' targets at 625 yards consistently.
I like H335 and I've got a NOE boolit that is 350 grain with an HP. I generally send them right around 1900 fps. With that boolit at that speed it is stout but not unpleasant. It will also take down just about anything that walks the earth - and is good insurance in case of a T-Rex.

[sutherpride59]

I guess I'm in luck then I have H335 & H4198. Now if I could only find some darn brass lol.

[dverna]

I also agree that you made the right choice wrt caliber. The CVA has never "turned my crank" but so what?!?!

If you decide to get a better rifle, at least you have the right caliber.

Good luck.

[gwpercle]

Welp too late, I'm impulsive, I bought the CVA 45-70 :bigsmyl2:. I guess tonight I'll have to buy dies and a new mold. Thanks for all the info y'all.

LIKE LIKE LIKE !!!

For some reason I have always wanted a single shot rifle ... like a Sharps , Trap door Springfield , Remington Rolling Block , Henry or even a break action ... inner old west buffalo hunter ???
But always chambered in 45 - 70 ...
Untill I saw that movie with the 45-110 1874 Sharps ... but it's simply a 45-70 Long ...
I would still go with the 45-70 chambering !
Good Move !
Gary

[gwpercle]

Welp too late, I'm impulsive, I bought the CVA 45-70 :bigsmyl2:. I guess tonight I'll have to buy dies and a new mold. Thanks for all the info y'all.

LIKE LIKE LIKE !!!

For some reason I have always wanted a single shot rifle ... like a Sharps , Trap door Springfield , Remington Rolling Block , Henry or even a break action ... inner old west buffalo hunter ???
But always chambered in 45 - 70 ...
Untill I saw that movie with the 45-110 1874 Sharps ... but it's simply a 45-70 Long ...
I would still go with the 45-70 chambering !
Good Move !
Gary

[Soundguy]

Of the 2.. I would go 45-70. The cartridge itself can load down to trap door levels, and in the correct chamber can get near 458winmag

[PositiveCaster]

Of the 2.. I would go 45-70...

He already bought the .45-70….



.

[Soundguy]

And? He asked for opinions on which... .. It's not like if he bought one he couldn't also buy another.... ;)

[GhostHawk]

I have a pair of .44mag H&R single shots and a .444marlin also in single shot Handi rifle.

All 3 rock. And if I ever really wanted to kill something big really really dead the .444 would be my choice.
With a 310 grain gas checked bullet over 10-13 grains of Red Dot. Cuts cloverleafs out as far as the shooter can hold it.

Mild to wild, pick your poison and load it.

[sutherpride59]

Well rifle is purchased and I'm awaiting it to be shipped. In the mean time I bought a lee 404grn mold. The mold should be here Tuesday and I'll get a little casting done. I have a mold in .454 that is a 260grn flat nose. I may try to beagle that one and get them to drop a little larger just to see how they do.

[cainttype]

This is a little late, but I’d consider the purpose of the gun in such a choice.
If medium game hunting was the goal, I’d also consider the single-shot versus semi-auto AND bolt action rifle types.
Both cartridges perform just fine with cast, and “NO” you don’t need a Tromix upper to do well in the AR platform. There are plenty options in barrels and uppers that are more than adequate.

The 450BM bolts are very popular in States where straightwall restrictions apply with case length limitations for good reason, it’s a hammer on hogs and deer.
I did see some finickiness in a couple ARs with cast (always use a gas check there) where molds I thought were a good match failed to perform to the level I demanded. Everything seemed to be good, until the bullets simply didn’t shoot well enough to meet expectations.
I eventually purchased NOE’s 452-277 and found instant success… I plan to eventually go back and try to sort out why the others balked.

The 45-70 is almost never a bad answer. It’s a classic for good reason, and can be an excellent performer with a wide variety of options.

[Hanzy4200]

As others mentioned, it's hard to beat a 12 ga slug gun. You're not going to get more horsepower unless you're ready to spend $3K. I'e done the big bore handguns, but have yet to venture into the rifles. Would like to find a beat up old double rifle. 400 Nitro maybe.

[lar45]

I eventually purchased NOE’s 452-277 and found instant success… I plan to eventually go back and try to sort out why the others balked.

Sorry for the thread drift, but cainttype, is this the plain based, gas checked, hollow point???
Also, could you PM me any load details?
I've got a Ruger AR in 450 Bushmaster that will shoot Hornady factory in a tight cloverleaf, but cast hasn't been very easy to get to shoot. I finally settled on the Speer .458 350 JSP sized down to .452" at 1800fps. Puts a hurtin on the hogs...
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/452-277-HP_PB_BP6_Sketch.jpg

Looks like it could be a great heavy 45acp bullet also.

[reddog81]

So a 400 grain bullet doing 2,000 FPS out of a 26” barrel is a 1,000 yard round and a 300 grain bullet doing 2,000 FPS out of a 16” barrel is a 200 yard round at best. OK….

FWIW I’ve got everything from a 200 grain SWC to a 300 grain WFN to shoot well from an AR. 350 grain WFN works well in my Ruger bolt action.

[Soundguy]

As others mentioned, it's hard to beat a 12 ga slug gun. You're not going to get more horsepower unless you're ready to spend $3K. I'e done the big bore handguns, but have yet to venture into the rifles. Would like to find a beat up old double rifle. 400 Nitro maybe.

Get a 470 ne double... Fantastic to shoot..and..as a bonus.. When you pull one out at the rifle range and the other shooters there see the large stacked or sxs barrels and stop you and say " hey..no shotguns ", then you can smile and say... No it's ok..its a rifle... And then see their expressions...

[murf205]

Sorry for the thread drift, but cainttype, is this the plain based, gas checked, hollow point???
Also, could you PM me any load details?
I've got a Ruger AR in 450 Bushmaster that will shoot Hornady factory in a tight cloverleaf, but cast hasn't been very easy to get to shoot. I finally settled on the Speer .458 350 JSP sized down to .452" at 1800fps. Puts a hurtin on the hogs...
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/452-277-HP_PB_BP6_Sketch.jpg

Looks like it could be a great heavy 45acp bullet also.

I had the same problem with cast in my son's 450 Bushmaster. It shoots Hornady flex tips great but I had a heck of a time with cast. Only 1 good session and I think it was luck. The 47/0 has about every mold known to man made for it and you will never regret that choice. Why they decided to use .452 groove diameter for that thing, Is a mystery to me. With the rebated base, the BM could have been a .458 just as easily.

[Noah Zark]

My LGS cannot keep a CVA 45-70 in stock; they fly off the rack. I know a couple of owners and they get excellent accuracy. If I didn't already own two 1874 Sharps, an 1875 Sharps, and an H&R Buffalo in 45-70 (not mentioning the six leverguns), I'd get a CVA.

Noah

[murf205]

My LGS cannot keep a CVA 45-70 in stock; they fly off the rack. I know a couple of owners and they get excellent accuracy. If I didn't already own two 1874 Sharps, an 1875 Sharps, and an H&R Buffalo in 45-70 (not mentioning the six leverguns), I'd get a CVA.

Noah
My LGS has the same problem keeping them in stock and word gets out pretty fast if they aren't good shooters, especially for the money. If they ever get one in stock, I am going to buy a 44 mag for a test mule. They are pretty light for a 45/70 but you can always load them down to trap door (or less) speeds and they will still penetrate into another zip code.

[sutherpride59]

Oh man I have loved the comments. Makes me feel a little better about buying the CVA 45-70. The 450 bush seems like a good round and all but man to load for a single shot break barrel just feels like a dream come true. It doesn't get any easier. It took longer than I expected to get some brass and cast some. I will have a range report next Friday if all works out. We will see how the Lee 404 does without gas check and seated out .02" off the lands over some H335. The lead pot is going now with some 14bhn alloy so we shall see how she does soon. Only funny thing is the rifling on this gun does look a bit shallow compared to my 30 cal guns. I'll shoot it before I call the company and complain. About the same depth as my 45acp so it might just be a 45 cal thing.

[Rapier]

I have a couple of 45-70 rifles and have been shooting them for a few decades. When I saw an edition of Forty Years With the 45-70, I bought it, primarily to fill a spot in my library. If you see the book for sale you might pick it up.
The 45-70 is an interesting cartridge, very easy on the shoulder, just a push, to downright abusive. In a 98 Mauser it can be loaded to the bottom of 458 Win Mag performance, which leaves no lack of power, in North America. It is difficult to even flatten a primer with R-7. The 300 JHP is very effective on thin skinned game, the 525 RCBS cast is a crushing bullet for big hogs and bear. Best put you dentures in your pocket.

[oldbear1950]

for what the 45-70 can do, a guy took a marlin 45-70 to africa, along with a boatload of GARRETT HARD CAST BOOLITS, AND SHOT ALL THE BIG 5. Took em all, no problem, in fact shot a big bull, and a cow standing on the off side, he did not see, killed em both stone dead. There used to be all the stuff he did on line using those GARRETT loads.

[oley55]

for what the 45-70 can do, a guy took a marlin 45-70 to africa, along with a boatload of GARRETT HARD CAST BOOLITS, AND SHOT ALL THE BIG 5. Took em all, no problem, in fact shot a big bull, and a cow standing on the off side, he did not see, killed em both stone dead. There used to be all the stuff he did on line using those GARRETT loads.

was this guy a rich Dentist from Pittsburgh?:kidding:

[DocSavage]

45/70 can be loaded with bullets weighing from a 160 gr collar button to a 530 gr rnfp.
Noe makes a mold that will cast a collar button for light loads plan on getting one someday.

[murf205]

I have a couple of 45-70 rifles and have been shooting them for a few decades. When I saw an edition of Forty Years With the 45-70, I bought it, primarily to fill a spot in my library. If you see the book for sale you might pick it up.
The 45-70 is an interesting cartridge, very easy on the shoulder, just a push, to downright abusive. In a 98 Mauser it can be loaded to the bottom of 458 Win Mag performance, which leaves no lack of power, in North America. It is difficult to even flatten a primer with R-7. The 300 JHP is very effective on thin skinned game, the 525 RCBS cast is a crushing bullet for big hogs and bear. Best put you dentures in your pocket.

Yeah and a thick pad wouldn't hurt either if you really step on the gas!

[OFFSHORE]

I'm a Big Bore fanboy myself. . .love the .430 and .458 cast boolits in a medium/heavy weight class. You did good with your 45/70 choice, and as many have stated you can go from mild to wild with a stout actioned 45/70 rifle. I personally shoot a Ruger No.1 with 385gr. boolits and enjoy the hell out of it. I have friends that I load for that shoot 450 Bushies, 458 SOCOM's, 458 Win Mag and even a 45 Raptor. . .the O'le Man 45/70, to me, rules the roost. Just my $0.02, enjoy your new rifle.

[fredj338]

Certainly go 45-70. No need for gc up to 1800fps or so. If you go coated, over 2000. I have a Lyman hp mold, works great for expanding bullets cast soft & cast harder, wide enough nose to do damage.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve been shooting a 45/70 lever action for years. If I were to get another 45 cal, it would be 47/90 if not 45/110. I enjoy shooting BP.

[sutherpride59]

Well just to report in. The only brass I could get a hold of was reclaimed range brass. I loaded them up with Lee 404 grn powder coated bullets and 53.8 grn of H335. It was the first thing my powder measurer dumped that was close the the 52grn starting load. I didn't size the powder coated bullet and I kinda didn't trim any of the brass either lol. These bullets were all cast with a fairly soft allow with less tin than they probably should of had because fill out was garbage. Still the bases looked nice and I wasn't going for precision loads here. Honestly I just wanted to get bullets made to go shoot already. After the first 3 rounds I realized somehow I missed getting the rear scope ring on correctly. 4 rounds latter I was on paper top left of the bullseye. Well I put 3 more down range and let my brother finish off the 5 I saved for him. So my 4 round group was 3" at 100 yards and there was some minor leading at the end of the barrel. I'm pretty happy, 3" with the worst ammo I could have possibly made, I'll take it. This is my first batch of powder coated bullets so I'll make some new ones and coat them the right way. I have a sizer on the way at .459 because the slugged bore measures 4.578". I'm sure if I trim the casings uniformed, cast some quality bullets, coat said bullets correctly and size them, she will be pretty accurate with no leading. We will see, college is about to start up again and I will have to mothball my hobby for a while. I'll report back on here the next time I go out.

[GregLaROCHE]

Surprised you got leading from PCed boolits.

[Soundguy]

Im not... I've sampled some commercial powder coated bullets..and many flake when deformed or don't pass a smash test. ( yes..if done pc myself and wasn't happy with the multiple extra steps and time that gave me -0- benefits over a correct alloy, correctly sized and lubed boolit. Imho..no reason to work harder to get same results..
Anyway.. Seeing the drastic differences in quality of commercial powdercoat I completely threw in the towel. The ones I had I lubed and shot.. The lube prevented the poorly powder coated boolits from leading...and didn't leave paying color in the bore...

To the op. The 45-70 cases likely won't grow any or much..and as a rimmed cartridge..a thou difference in chamber to lands won't make much difference shooting those big lead bowling balls.

[sutherpride59]

Well the PCed boolits I did were kind of worse case scenario. I didn't cure them correctly. There were some bald spots but I'll cast some tonight with good fill out and PC them. I'll do some soft lead ones and some harder lead ones. Basically pure with 2% an and some with 4% roto 3m super hard and 2% sn. We'll see if the soft alloy holds up and groups. Also for powder coating I found that a sheet of aluminum flashing I use for gas checks will work well with holes drilled to hold the bullet nose down after coating. Really give it the best chance for success. Once my sizer comes in I'll load them up and send them down range the next day. Please track of the wolf let it be here tomorrow lol. I tell you the ole 45-70 sure packs some umffff when you shoot. If they still lead I'll give lube a try before I resort to gas checking these. The fact that it's a gas check mold though clues me in that I should probably be using one lol.

[sutherpride59]

Ok so I have 14 loaded up....I may have killed a casing by mistake. 4 cases to 48.3 grains of H335 and 10 loaded to the original 53.8 grains of H335. I'll report in on Thursday what happens. Hopefully good accuracy and no leading with both loadings.

[sutherpride59]

Ok range report just so I don't leave this thread hanging. The 48.3 grains were terribly inaccurate with about a 6" group at 100 yards. No leading occured as I got the PC 100% this time. Well the 54 grains of H335 on the other hand all went into a sexy little 1.5" group at 100 yards with no leading. Clearly my lead wasn't as soft as I had thought lol. I will test the hardness when I finally have some free time but I'm moth balling any further load development until the semester is over. It's had being 33 and taking 7 college classes in one semester so I won't have time for it till after.

[oley55]

Ok range report just so I don't leave this thread hanging. The 48.3 grains were terribly inaccurate with about a 6" group at 100 yards. No leading occured as I got the PC 100% this time. Well the 54 grains of H335 on the other hand all went into a sexy little 1.5" group at 100 yards with no leading. Clearly my lead wasn't as soft as I had thought lol. I will test the hardness when I finally have some free time but I'm moth balling any further load development until the semester is over. It's had being 33 and taking 7 college classes in one semester so I won't have time for it till after.

It's been a good read and have enjoyed following. Thanks for following up. Hanging threads are worse than Florida hanging chads IMO.

[paul edward]

I too like my "Big Bores" including the 577 Snider! https://i.imgur.com/0b7mFCpl.jpg
Must have some big varmits in Australia!

[sutherpride59]

It's been a good read and have enjoyed following. Thanks for following up. Hanging threads are worse than Florida hanging chads IMO.

I couldn't agree more. If someone has the same questions I do I know they are going to wonder what the answer was in the end. I should also add a correction that the better grouping was 1.5" center-to-center not a hole of 1.5" diameter. Also I couldn't walk down range to measure the group size. I'm just guessing what I could see through the spotting scope, but it was certainly C-C less than 2".