Thirty Caliber Flat Points

[Good Cheer]

I've been casting and measuring my various .30 molds for a hunting load in a 7.62x51 bolt action with .303 bore and .310 groove. Fortuitously enough it has a ten inch twist for heavies, not that finding a mold for it in my fun box is working out.
During this frustrated walk down memory lane it has occurred to me that an old 220 grain #311284 could be just jim dandy if the long bore riding portion was closer to .302 instead of .295. Then came that AH HA! moment when thinking about a properly sized .302 diameter band at the front. Oh, but what kind of nose profile for the nose plug?
Why not a truly flat point for a really heavy thirty at all the FPS a 7.62x51 can produce?

So I thought hey, ask the forum. Any of you fellas used a very heavy .30 caliber wadcutter?
http://i.imgur.com/Dkiwn2i.jpg (https://imgur.com/Dkiwn2i)

[Ickisrulz]

Apart from feeding issues, it would most likely won't be very good for long range shots.

[stubshaft]

It would be a great hunting bullet though.

[Dan Cash]

A 200-220 grain bullet is going to hang a lot of exposed bullet shank in the powder chamber of your 7.62x51/.308 Win. That will not play nice with accuracy. Accurate molds makes some 165-180 grain bullets which will work better and he will give you the profile you want at no extra charge. I don't think you really want a full wadcutter.

[Rapier]

I have had very good luck with the 165 grain RCBS FP Silhouette GC bullet.

[405grain]

I haven't tried it in the 308 yet, but the RCBS 30-180-FN would give you the heavy weight slug that your looking for with a big meplat. I'm concerned that I might have to seat the boolit with the gas check below the neck in order to chamber the cartridge, and that's why I haven't tried it yet. But since people have loaded this boolit in the 7.62x39 and shot it with an SKS, it's obviously possible in a 7.62x51. The RCBS cast bullet handbook has loads for 308 Win with this boolit, but it doesn't specify over all length.

The lyman cast bullet handbook doesn't list a load for 308 Win with the #311284. They show the #311299 as the heaviest bullet. I think this might be because so much of the #311284 would be below the neck in order to chamber that cartridge. Oddly, the #311284 (powder coated and sized .312") is very accurate in my 7.65x53, but that rifle has a mile of freebore so I don't have to seat the boolit below its tiny neck.

[todd9.3x57]

i use 165gr ranch dogs (173gr actually) sized .311" in my krag and that is last thing i will shoot. my 7.65 argie just luvs the lee 312-185-R rn gc and saeco 305 303 British 180gr fn gc sized at .314".

[dg31872]

I have used the RCBS 180 FN in 30-30, and was pleased with results. Have not used in 308W, but I will as soon as it cool again.

[Ickisrulz]

I use the RCBS 30-180-FN in both 30-06 and 308 with acceptable results for me. That is around 1.25-1.5 inches at 100 yards keeping the velocity around 1500 fps using either Promo or 2400.

[Budzilla 19]

173 grain Ranch Dog in 308 does ok. In 30-06, it does better. No chronograph loads, ( I killed it with a 223), but they both shot good out to 250 yards. Not shooting for group, but just 8”x8” plate at the longer ranges. Good luck however you decide to go.

[Daekar]

If it were me, I wouldn't go full wadcutter, but simply increase the radius of the nose significantly. For stability, you still want to have some narrowing at the front. Something like this: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-245P

That's still a respectable meplat but it should feed and chamber a bit easier and fly better. That being said, if you don't care about reaching out very far, I'm sure the full WC would do the job. I love weird boolits, so I would love to hear about your experience if you try it.

[Larry Gibson]

Over the years I've used numerous 30 cal cast bullets on deer from 105 gr SWCs up through the 311284 with a meplat filed on the nose. However, the one I've used most in 30-30, 308W, the 30-06, and a couple 31 cals is the Lyman 311041 pushed to 1950 t0 2300 fps depending on the barrel twist. Cast of a soft malleable alloy and HP'd 1/8" to a depth of 3/16" [mine weigh 178 gr] they give reasonable expansion with all the penetration needed (usually through and through) with proven excellent terminal performance on deer, bear and elk. I've a load that pushes them at 2500 fps out of my 14" twist 308W but have not shot any animals with it.

[megasupermagnum]

I've shot something similar, but never at an animal. I don't see any major problems, other than I don't believe a production mold exists that is perfect for what you need. This is definitely a job for Accurate molds. Don't go full wadcutter, but something like a .280" meplat works, although it may or may not feed. Being a bolt action, worst case is it is a single shot. There's no reason it has to reduce powder space either, it just needs a really long bore riding section. A 220 grain bullet has always been an available weight for 308, and there's no reason it wont work great here.

[Gray Fox]

Larry: What do you use to HP the boolit? GF

[Milky Duck]

there are great 170grn flat nose cast boolits out there..same mould with pin makes 151grn HPs which have a huge following here in NZ with subsonic users as it WILL expand and the price is cheap...
Ive used a few of the 170grn in the 7.62x39mm ( yes I know its not supposed to use .308 pills but it worked fine) loaded them in 30/30 as well and they worked well. come to think of it there is some 200grn moulds for 303brit around too.... if you can access our "trademe" auction siite (huge NZ marketplace) have a look in hunting n fishing section in reloading and look at projectiles...you will see the cast ones I mean for sale in there. failing that I will try to copy photos.

[ElCheapo]

If you have a decent meplat there is no need to hollow point a 30 caliber hunting bullet, at least with the 30 WCF. I've gotten multiple deer now with the 311041, and last year took a buck with the 311008. Read about it here... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?435728-311008-works-for-deer-too!

I recommend PCing as this lowers the hardness of COWW's to 10 or 11 BHN, ensuring bullets hold together and penetrate. Straight water dropped COWW bullets will be brittle and can break up on heavy bone. I also take shoulder shots when I can. This puts the deer down instantly and ruins heart and or lungs, resulting in a quick death and minimal suffering. Good luck!

[Bigslug]

This one's fairly easy.

The Accurate Molds 31-170H and 170H1 are blueprinted out for the .308's neck. Diameter adjustments are no problem for Tom when you order (those two are conventional lube groove designs).

The NOE/Ranch Dog TL311-178RF was designed using the SAAMI .308 chamber as the guidebook, and is a tumble lube bullet ideal for applying the gas checks in a push-through sizer. . . and it fits the mag box. You could send that blueprint to Accurate with a request to puff out the diameters to where you need them.

All three are very similar in profile with aggressive flat point. The Ranch Dog is my practice bullet for busting water bottles in my primary deer rifle. You can hear the meplat strike cardboard from 100 yards away, and it turns a gallon jug into a fog bank in a way that a round nose/pseudo-spitzer like the 311299 can not match.

[todd9.3x57]

This one's fairly easy.

The Accurate Molds 31-170H and 170H1 are blueprinted out for the .308's neck. Diameter adjustments are no problem for Tom when you order (those two are conventional lube groove designs).

The NOE/Ranch Dog TL311-178RF was designed using the SAAMI .308 chamber as the guidebook, and is a tumble lube bullet ideal for applying the gas checks in a push-through sizer. . . and it fits the mag box. You could send that blueprint to Accurate with a request to puff out the diameters to where you need them.

All three are very similar in profile with aggressive flat point. The Ranch Dog is my practice bullet for busting water bottles in my primary deer rifle. You can hear the meplat strike cardboard from 100 yards away, and it turns a gallon jug inhttps://castboolits.gunloads.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5436275to a fog bank in a way that a round nose/pseudo-spitzer like the 311299 can not match.


my first doe i shot with a cast boolit was 93 yards away. it was a 30-40 krag and a 165gr ranch dog with h4198 going 1926fps. i can remember the BOO----THWAP---OM!!! that the RD did.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: What do you use to HP the boolit? GF

I have two Lyman 311041s [2 cavity and a single cavity HP] and a GB Lee 6 cavity C314-041. The Lyman HP is a factory HP mould but after much testing for expansion of various alloys and testing on deer I shortened the HP stem so the HP is 3/16ths deep. I also use the 1/8" Forster HP tool to HP the other Lyman and Lee bullets 3/16" deep when needed. The Lee C314-041 when cast of malleable alloy and HP'd is particularly effective in my 31 cals.

As ElCheapo mentions there "is no need" to HP the 311041. However, the fact remains that HP'd bullets that do expand reliably w/o losing the expansion petals transmit more energy to the animal, cause more "wound expansion" and, hence, kill quicker regardless of meplat size. As does ElCheapo, I also prefer a shot through the heat area which also takes out one or both front legs. With a softer malleable alloy that expands and holds together penetration is still almost always through and through. Thus, I prefer to use malleable HP'd cast bullets when hunting because over the years they have proven to be the most terminally effective.

Again, let me say that I have killed a lot of varmints and game with non HP'd cast bullets having just a meplat. That includes numerous with the 311041 and other sililar 30/31 cal cast bullets. They do kill quite well. I just prefer the more effective expanding bullet. My choice, not everyone's and that's ok.

[MT Gianni]

My only experiences with the 308 on game have been with the 311440. I killed a couple of antelope and some whitetails. I shot the 311284 on plates with a near case full of WC860 and 3 gr 4198 out of the 06, but ran out of sight adjustment at 400 + yards. I moved to the Saeco 315 bullet at 175 gr and believe it would be a killer on game if I needed it too.

[Pepe le PewPew]

I only have two things to add, as I’ve only killed paper with cast in a rifle.
First, since your rifle has the 31 cal bore, do you know how much free bore there is? Who’s to say it’s to print since bore is not “standard”. Maybe it HAS enough free bore to allow way more bullet out of the case. Same as to what works through the magazine, you didn’t state it WAS a short action rifle. If it’s a long action you could potentially use an even heavier bullet (only speaking to mag length, not twist issues etc).
I think you’ve left out some important info to take into consideration of what your “outer limits” actually are.
Random thoughts from this random guy on the interwebs.
.
BTW thanks to all that shared what’s worked for them at the bench and in the fields.
Been thinking I should get a mold and start shooting my Swiss K31 again, going to research what designs work well with its chamber etc.

[Pepe le PewPew]

I Phone double post sorry! Deleted

[Good Cheer]

In this "31-08" bolt action the first of the rifling starts engraving on the .311 sized #311284 front driving when the gas check base is seated even with the back of the case neck. And, the front of #311284 is long enough that the nose is going down the chamber when the case base pops out of the magazine. It's a pretty nice match but yeah, that's all mold selection stuff. It's the bore riding portion of the boolits at .295 diameter (small for most any 7.62) that is going to need massaging. That bore matching nose is the best fit I've come up with, hence asking the question about anyone using a .30 caliber flat nose for hunting. I think the only place I've ever read about using flat points on long heavy boolits was in connection with muzzleloading target rifles.

[Good Cheer]

Got busy with other things and haven't gone forward with the flat point.
But, I found a #314299 I didn't know I had.
The bore rider portion seems to be a perfect fit even if the spire point isn't.

[wmitty]

Bob Hagel wrote extensively for Handloader and Rifle magazines. He had hunting/shooting experience regarding North American game which very few of us will attain. The importance of jacketed bullet construction was emphasized by Hagel, along with the importance of sectional density for adequate penetration of the game being hunted. Now, jacketed and cast are apples and oranges, I realize, but surely sectional density along with an adequate frontal surface area are important in hunting with cast loads. Does a increase in meplat diameter result in a proportional decrease in projectile stability if the boolit length is unchanged? Can a boolit with x sectional density remain stable to say 200 yds with a cylindrical profile ( full diameter meplat)? I’d really like to know if anyone has experience with this, as I have wondered the same thing. Is there an easy way to block off the front portion of a mould cavity to allow a cylindrical or near cylindrical boolit to be cast?

[Good Cheer]

Me too. I want to know.

[rockrat]

I remember reading about someone turning some inserts in his lathe, that would fit the front of the mould, so as to make a pretty decent flat points.

[yeahbub]

I've been experimenting with the group-buy 311041 plain base cast of 50/50 WW/lead, PC'd and sized .311. In 7.62x54 with 20gr of AA5744 at 100 yards it looks like a reliable 2" performer and may be this year's hunting combo. The jury is still out on the same load in the .30-30. The smaller case may need to be backed off to 19gr to produce acceptable pressure/velocity but testing continues with bumping a larger meplat for safety in the mag tube as well as mild engraving on the nose.

[centershot]

Bob Hagel wrote extensively for Handloader and Rifle magazines. He had hunting/shooting experience regarding North American game which very few of us will attain. The importance of jacketed bullet construction was emphasized by Hagel, along with the importance of sectional density for adequate penetration of the game being hunted. Now, jacketed and cast are apples and oranges, I realize, but surely sectional density along with an adequate frontal surface area are important in hunting with cast loads. Does a increase in meplat diameter result in a proportional decrease in projectile stability if the boolit length is unchanged? Can a boolit with x sectional density remain stable to say 200 yds with a cylindrical profile ( full diameter meplat)? I’d really like to know if anyone has experience with this, as I have wondered the same thing. Is there an easy way to block off the front portion of a mould cavity to allow a cylindrical or near cylindrical boolit to be cast?

I believe the answer to the "full-diameter meplat" and success thereof at extended range (over 50 yards) has been shown by pistol shooter's efforts to achieve good groups with .38 WC bullets past 50 yards. The WC profile appears to yaw excessively as it slows and groups open up. I would expect the same of a rifle bullet.

[Digital Dan]

Some experience with this so I’ll chime in. Minutiae aside, the 311041 with wheel weight alloy shoots as accurately and at the same velocity as j-bullets in all of the .30-30’s I’ve tried it in. Fired point blank into damp sand it fragments significantly. Another bullet of .30 caliber I cast is a pointed round nose of the same weight, used for subsonic suppressed applications. Alloy of 30:1 and 1050 FPS in damp sand presents a perfect mushroom with 95% retained weight. They both kill pigs where they stand. Pop and flop.

I’ve not recovered either bullet from a game animal.

[Beaverhunter2]

I'm using the RCBS 308 180FN in .308 Winchester. 35.0gr of IMR3031 with a CCI-200. PC GC and sized to .311" in a Remington 700 SPS. Boolits are 208gr RTL. 2301fps with the 24" barrel. Just over an inch for 5 shots at 100 yds. AC 50-50 at about 12Bhn

I'm pretty happy with it. YMMV

John

[Larry Gibson]

I'm using the RCBS 308 180FN in .308 Winchester. 35.0gr of IMR3031 with a CCI-200. PC GC and sized to .311" in a Remington 700 SPS. Boolits are 208gr RTL. 2301fps with the 24" barrel. Just over an inch for 5 shots at 100 yds. AC 50-50 at about 12Bhn

I'm pretty happy with it. YMMV

John

Excellent performance, similar to what I get out of my M70 albiet with a different load.

The Remington SPS rifles have/had 3 different twists; 10, 10.25 and 12" twists. Which does your rifle have?

[Earl54]

For what its worth, I just started working with a short barreled drilling, 16x16 over a 8x72r, 21.75 inch barrels. Included with the gun was a box of RWS factory loads, 200+ grain lead with a full diameter flat point( full wadcutter), they show no signs of being reloads( aprox. 1950's factory loads). Am golng to disassemble one of the loads and have a custom mould made to match the bullet, looks like it will work well from a tree stand(hope it will print well to 100yds).

[popper]

The '041 is probably the largest FN for the 308W. I used a 31-165C for mine, MOA @ 200 from AR10. Has a 0.18 meplat (60% of 30cal). IIRC, 041 is 80%. Drop was ~ 6" @ 200. No animals (hogs), not for not trying. Pesky critters only show up when they want.
Working on a similar 145gr in henry 308W, pushed a little faster.

[Good Cheer]

Mine is .310" groove diameter, .303" bore and 10" twist.
Going heavy boolit, slow powder, best lube system and alloy only as hard as fate requires of me.

[missionary5155]

50% + FN should do the job at thwaping velocities over 1500 fps. Less than that FPS on target we adjust the mix. But hunting river bottoms shots are always close.

[Beaverhunter2]

Excellent performance, similar to what I get out of my M70 albiet with a different load.

The Remington SPS rifles have/had 3 different twists; 10, 10.25 and 12" twists. Which does your rifle have?

Sorry! I had to wait to get back home to look. 1-12". I replaced the trigger with a Timney and the stock with a Magpul Hunter.

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry! I had to wait to get back home to look. 1-12". I replaced the trigger with a Timney and the stock with a Magpul Hunter.

Excellent. Many don't realze the difference between a 10 and 12" twist, especially with the 308W.

[30calflash]

Larry do you find the 12" twist better for soft cast hunting bullets better than a 10" twist?

[centershot]

From what I've experienced, any twist slower than 1-10 is better for cast bullets, 1-11, 1-12, 1-14.

[30calflash]

A 12" twist is most likely better than a 10" but a 10" can do it also. I was thinking would the 10" twist expand better? Or go to pieces easier? Or not matter at all?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry do you find the 12" twist better for soft cast hunting bullets better than a 10" twist?

Most definitely, in the past I've always preferred a 12" twist to a 10" twist in 30 caliber. Given the same impact velocity and alloy I've never found either twist to affect the expansion or terminal effect of the bullet. However, I've always found the 12" twist could give 200 to 300+ fps more velocity with equal accuracy over the 10" twist.

I've been pushing the softer cast 311041 upwards of 2600 fps out of my 14" twist 308W with very good hunting accuracy to 300 yards (just the farthest I've shot it so far). The barrel is on a M98 action which I've a Gibbs inline magazine conversion for, so it feeds the FN bullets straight into the chamber without any left side hangups that are common with many FN cast in staggered magazines. I expect to be testing it on deer and pigs in the future.

[Good Cheer]

Processing the first batch of these hybrid design rondezvous with Rama flat noses.
https://i.imgur.com/qiZgnw8.jpg
The bore ride portion is .303" diameter. Sizing the groove diameter .311 but that will probably increase.
Tumbling with a mixture of Lee's and the cheapest bottle of carnauba polish they had in town.
Push-thru sizing with DAX-LOOB* in the grooves contained within the .308 case neck.
When cycling loaded cartridges through the action the front "corner" of the nose gets a small hickey. The corrugated bore riding portion engraves ever so slightly on the rifling.
I'm about ready to start assembling some rounds. The bullet nose holder in a Lee seater die is reversible to provide a flat end to match the boolits so will use it instead of the RCBS or Lyman. The Lee factory crimp will probably be good.
Wish I had more slower stick powders. Oh well. Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without!
:rolleyes:

*Pool hall scented DAX pomade that they no longer sell, lanolin, olive oil, beeswax. Oh, and a crayon for identification.
It seems to work for everything. Some day maybe I'll use up this batch.

[Shopdog]

I forget what size and thread pitch the "cup pointed" set screw is but..... homade TP and while it's chucked up in the lathe,drill/tap for it.

Here's a RN 7mm Lee 130 with 3 different depth settings. 7-08 running 38g of Varget. Easy sub moa 5 shot 100 yd groups.

[35 Rem]

I'm watching this with interest. If you can get an accurate load with those you are going to have a real thumper. Anxious to see shooting results.

[Good Cheer]

For me this really is a pretty radical experiment in small bore hunting boolits, like once I thought about it had to try it out to see if I could make it work.

Even though having doubts about using a .35 rather than a .375.[smilie=l:

[centershot]

I've been experimenting with the group-buy 311041 plain base cast of 50/50 WW/lead, PC'd and sized .311. In 7.62x54 with 20gr of AA5744 at 100 yards it looks like a reliable 2" performer and may be this year's hunting combo. The jury is still out on the same load in the .30-30. The smaller case may need to be backed off to 19gr to produce acceptable pressure/velocity but testing continues with bumping a larger meplat for safety in the mag tube as well as mild engraving on the nose.

yeahbub,
I have that mould too, it's been a good performer for me. How fast are you running those boolits? I'm casting ACWW presently, but with the plain base I'm hesitant go beyond 1400.