Which way to drift Winchester barrel sights out of their dovetails?

[1886nut]

Whats the traditional direction to REMOVE a winchester dovetailed front blade or buckhorn rear? I believe it is left to right when viewed from the rear of the sights but I'm not sure. I am specifically talking about a vintage high wall with original dovetail (I think it is 0.375).

[NSB]

It’s left to right as you look down the barrel. I’m pretty old and owned a lot of guns and I’ve never seen it any other way. I’ve been told others have, but I think it’s from someone else beating them out the wrong way.

[gc45]

Winchesters are left to right looking down the bore..Done hundreds in my time of collecting, shooting and helping others. Some will have a set screw so be sure to loosen it first..Also use a brass punch to tap on the site base, do not use steel..

[1886nut]

Left to right looking down the barrel from the breach or the muzzle side?

[NSB]

Left to right looking down the barrel from the breach or the muzzle side?
Like you’re aiming the gun……your left to your right.

[HWooldridge]

Is the premise here that Winchester dovetails were/are tapered? That would be both difficult to machine in production, and windage adjustment would reach a point where the sight binds and stops moving in one direction, or gets too loose to stay in position

Now, I can see whoever fitted them might file some clearance on one side of the sight(s) to more easily start in the barrel dovetail because it’s less risky to adjust the sight than file on the barrel.

[NSB]

Is the premise here that Winchester dovetails were/are tapered? That would be both difficult to machine in production, and windage adjustment would reach a point where the sight binds and stops moving in one direction, or gets too loose to stay in position

Now, I can see whoever fitted them might file some clearance on one side of the sight(s) to more easily start in the barrel dovetail because it’s less risky to adjust the sight than file on the barrel.
It’s not a “premise”, if you buy anyone’s dovetail sight you can measure it before installation and it’s wider on one side than the other. That’s by design. It gets tighter as you tap it in. Most aftermarket replacements are made oversized to allow for the slot having been expanded from previous removal. I’ve installed quite a few. There are some other tricks gunsmithsuse to tighten them up also.

[HWooldridge]

It’s not a “premise”, if you buy anyone’s dovetail sight you can measure it before installation and it’s wider on one side than the other. That’s by design. It gets tighter as you tap it in. Most aftermarket replacements are made oversized to allow for the slot having been expanded from previous removal. I’ve installed quite a few. There are some other tricks gunsmithsuse to tighten them up also.

Like I wrote, I can see it on the sight but not the dovetail - too hard to mass produce.

[ulav8r]

Like I wrote, I can see it on the sight but not the dovetail - too hard to mass produce.

Don't be so picky about where the taper is, just realize that there is a taper and there is one correct direction to remove or install the sight.

[HWooldridge]

Don't be so picky about where the taper is, just realize that there is a taper and there is one correct direction to remove or install the sight.

I work in a high volume machine shop so the production process interests me...

I did some research last night and about half the people out in the internet world believe there is no taper machined into the barrels and the other half says the opposite. There are some "authorities" in both camps - BUT I did find an old drawing that was purported to be a Winchester print (although no title block so could be anybody). That drawing stated the dovetails were nominally 0 degrees 30 seconds of taper. That is almost no draft, but if the drawing is really from Winchester, the engineers clearly had a plan to produce that way. Before CNC machines existed, it might be easiest to cut it with a broach, since that process would be pretty fast once tooled up properly. The next question is how they measured the results. I suspect they either used GO and NOGO gages to check the cut or a couple of gage wires with a micrometer.

[NSB]

I work in a high volume machine shop so the production process interests me...

I did some research last night and about half the people out in the internet world believe there is no taper machined into the barrels and the other half says the opposite. There are some "authorities" in both camps - BUT I did find an old drawing that was purported to be a Winchester print (although no title block so could be anybody). That drawing stated the dovetails were nominally 0 degrees 30 seconds of taper. That is almost no draft, but if the drawing is really from Winchester, the engineers clearly had a plan to produce that way. Before CNC machines existed, it might be easiest to cut it with a broach, since that process would be pretty fast once tooled up properly. The next question is how they measured the results. I suspect they either used GO and NOGO gages to check the cut or a couple of gage wires with a micrometer.
When someone asks you what time it is, telling them how to make a watch isn’t the best answer. Just saying.

[HWooldridge]

When someone asks you what time it is, telling them how to make a watch isn’t the best answer. Just saying.

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

[marlinman93]

Is the premise here that Winchester dovetails were/are tapered? That would be both difficult to machine in production, and windage adjustment would reach a point where the sight binds and stops moving in one direction, or gets too loose to stay in position

Now, I can see whoever fitted them might file some clearance on one side of the sight(s) to more easily start in the barrel dovetail because it’s less risky to adjust the sight than file on the barrel.

No the dovetail cuts are never tapered. But the sight bases always are.
If you ever check barrel dovetails it's easy to see this is the case. If barrel dovetails were tapered, and sight bases were also tapered, the sights would stop hard once both tapers met along their contact areas. It would make drifting a sight to center it impossible.

[Gunlaker]

No the dovetail cuts are never tapered. But the sight bases always are.

This is the way I understand it to be done as well.

Chris.

[pietro]

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

You can satisfy your curiosity via actually measuring the I.D. of the female dovetail(s), removing the sight, if needed.

[marlinman93]

You can satisfy your curiosity via actually measuring the I.D. of the female dovetail(s), removing the sight, if needed.

Tough to measure the dovetail with any measuring device. But I've use pop cans and my micrometer to do so. I cut strips from the can and trim them until they just slide into the bottom of the dovetail, then check both sides from left and right to compare. Once you have the correct width I easure the strip with my micrometer to get actual readings.

[Gtek]

Little hammers, very nice punches and a good attitude can fix a lot of things.

[ulav8r]

Cut a couple of pins from drill rod, about 1/16 in diameter, and put one against each side of the dovetail. Measure between them with a caliper, then use a gage pin or jo block to check for parallelism.

[marlinman93]

Cut a couple of pins from drill rod, about 1/16 in diameter, and put one against each side of the dovetail. Measure between them with a caliper, then use a gage pin or jo block to check for parallelism.

Even 1/16" pins wont get into the corners of the dovetail cut so you have to calculate what is leftover. It's so much easier to use scissors and soda pop cans to get it exact, and just measure them. Just holding 1/16" pins, and trying to accurately measure their spread takes two people to do so.

[Tim357]

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

don't. I for one, appreciate the information. thanks for your contribution

[Tim357]

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

don't. I for one, appreciate the information. thanks for your contribution

[IridiumRed]

don't. I for one, appreciate the information. thanks for your contribution

+1 :)

[M-Tecs]

Post #5 has prints

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/restoration-repair-and-maintenance/rear-sight-dovetail-blank-removal/

http://www.texas-mac.com/Browning_and_Winchester_BPCR_Dovetails.html

http://www.texas-mac.com/Measuring_Dovetail_Slot_Dimensions.html

As to how it was done broaching to size and swagging the 30 seconds of a degree taper would be my guess based on machining marks.

[jdsingleshot]

Asking is good, but the internet is merely a digital mob. Check Roy Dunlap's Gunsmithing or other reputable source. I'll just say all my written texts and references say left to right to remove--tapered pins too.

[OS OK]

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

Hey...I appreciate your detailed commentary!
Don't let one frustrated speed reader discourage you one iota!

[MT Gianni]

The Devil is in the details but point taken - some folks just want to know the time. I'll keep it to myself next time.

No that was great information that needed to be shared and this was the perfect spot.