The Perfect Progressive Reloader

[dverna]

I sent a member a PM, and thought I would share my thoughts with others.

I have owned 17 progressive shotshell and metallic progressive presses in the 50+ years I have been dinking around with this hobby, and also reloaded on a buddy's Camdex and two of his progressives.

Every press has its annoyances and hiccups. Some are worse than others, some are horrible, and some are acceptable. I am an engineer and not too shabby with mechanical stuff, but no J Morris either. IMO there is no perfect press.

With old age and less shooting I have downsized significantly. WRT progressive presses, I am down to a PW800+ for target 12 ga loads. For "volume" metallics, a Dillon 1050 and Dillon 550 do all I need, and work well with little "fussiness".

I have two PW375's for hunting loads in both 2 3/4" and 3" hulls for 12 and 20 ga and the few 28 ga hunting loads I need. Will be loading buckshot and slug loads on the 375's as well.

Lastly a Rock Chucker and Co-Ax. BTW the Co-Ax is over 50 years old and is the first press I bought after working with the Lee Target Loader for my first CF rifle...a .222 M700 Varmint.

If someone has owned a perfect progressive press, let us know. Unicorns may exist?

[sparky45]

Nope; I think you've pretty well summed it up. I went through the various stages of metamorphosis in reloading presses. 1976 is when I started (Lee 1000) and a Texan FW shotshell press(still have) along with two tubs of shot and powder bushings. Progressed to a Lee Loadmaster (3) and almost immediately to a Dillon Square Deal B; then a Dillon 650; then after culling a few got a couple of RCBS RC's; then to round out my tooling I got a Redding T-7.
Currently have the 2 RC's and the Redding, pretty much gave the rest away to my Grandson and brother.

[rancher1913]

i really like the look of the new frankford arsenal one but they keep pushing the release date back so nobody has a decent review or photos of the press. there are photos and reviews of the prototype and it does look nice

[W.R.Buchanan]

I've had a bunch of different loaders. Operative word is HAD! I started with a Lee Classic Loader in .243. then I got one in .44 Magnum, took it back because it wouldn't choke down to do .44 Specials. The .44 Special version would open up to do Magnums? They were $10 back then.

Then I got my Rock Chucker cuz I wanted to go faster after I started casting boolits for the .44. Not much improvement over the whack a mole loaders speed wise.

Many years later I got a C&H 444 which I still use occasionally. It is like having 4 single stage presses lined up on the bench. Tried a PW Metal Master it sucked outright! Sold it to Sea Giant.

I got a Pacific DL266 for $50. Started loading Shot Shells with it. Best Single Stage Shot Shell Press ever made IMHO. Then I got a DL366 Progressive and could load about 300 per hour with it. Then I got a DL266 for loading .410's Had to pay $250 for that one! It makes nice Shells but is slow, so I got a DL366 recently as I was shooting the .410 more often and needed to go faster. Loading .410's is a little more finicky so the output is a little lower.

Along the way a friend gave me his 550B that he had paid $100 for. I had die plates set up for .308 9MM .357, and a couple others. Got teh trimmer adn pocket swager with it. I load all my .223's .40 S&W and .45 ACP on it all other low volume rifle rounds got loaded on the C&H as all powder charges were thrown and weighed and that tool is easiest to do that on.

Then I created my Hand Press. www.buchananprecisionmachine.com.

I now load all my Rifle Rounds on it sitting at the dining room table watching TV. It is the best Single Stage Tool I have ever used,, but I am biased.

Randy

[rancher1913]

randy, go back and read the thread title ;-)


just giving you heck

[20nickels]

I have only ever used my Hornady LNL auto progressive press. It’s a great press and I really dig the lnl feature on it and my Lee CC. occasionally I get the itch for upgrading but like you said they all have their quirks. I would have to upgrade BIG (Apex) to replace this and it’s just not worth it for my needs.
Pros;
Lnl bushing feature
Customer service is awesome.

Cons;
Primer ram needs cleaned frequently, annoying.
No primer pocket swager built in

Perfect? No, but it’s been a great press.

[20nickels]

BTW, see my Lee CC upgrade thread a few years back for those of you swaging or just need a higher leverage press, carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, injuries, etc.

[G W Wade]

Looks like our tastes are similar. 2 Dillon 550's, RCBS Rockchucker and PW 800 C and 375, GW

[megasupermagnum]

The thing that always got me is that there aren't a ton of great metallic progressive presses out there. In the shotgun world you can choose MEC, PW, Hornady, Dillon, Spolar, and I'm sure more all have at least one good model, most have multiple. By that I mean they are reliable, have good and simple priming systems, and load good ammo without too much fuss. They are all auto-indexing, with auto primer feed. The only drawback is I don't think any of them come standard with a case feeder, although some do have it as an extra cost option. Hand feeding shotgun shells isn't as big a deal as it is trying to feed 45 acp or 38 special.

Then for metallic we have a hodge podge of stuff, but none are that fantastic. Dillons are solid, but their priming systems are stone age tech. They don't have case feeders or anything until you get to pro level stuff. At least they auto-index now. Hornady is just a Dillon Jr., but they work. RCBS tried to bring the priming system into this generation with strips, but it's such a goofy and complex solution. You can complain all you want about Lee, but they are the only ones I see trying to engineer a modern progressive press. They aren't always successful, but at the very least they are on the right track with a simple primer feed setup that you just put primers in. They come standard with case feeders and auto-indexing. There's not a ton of options other than those brands.

There will never be a perfect progressive press, but in my mind they can be way better than they are right now with only a few tweaks. The Lee style case feeder is a great, stupidly simple solution. Why that isn't standard on every press, I don't know. Every progressive should auto-index. A good progressive press should just be a simple job of dumping in primers. You shouldn't have to mess with tubes or strips or any of that other 1950's nonsense. Progressives need to embrace more stations. There is zero downside to more stations other than a little less bench space. These aren't mind bending requests. These are standard order stuff that we have had one shotgun reloaders like the MEC Grabber, PW 800, and Spolar for decades. Even Dillon has had a shotgun loader that met this criteria for how long now, although it is pretty crazy expensive.

[rbuck351]

The Dillon 550b is not perfect but it's close enough for me. I can load about 400 rounds per hour without a case or bullet feeder and I like the no auto index. I have a Star universal with case feeder in 38spl that works pretty good but when some minor blip happens the auto index makes it a pain to clear. I have 3 Lee pro 1000s but they have the worst primer system I have ever seen and the powder spitter sets right over the open top primer slide.

I also have a Texan progressive 12ga loader but as I load very few shot shells, I have never used it.

[imashooter2]

randy, go back and read the thread title ;-)


just giving you heck

Cant have a good Ferrari thread without the occasional Fiat review. :kidding:

[Noah Zark]

Cant have a good Ferrari thread without the occasional Fiat review. :kidding:

I dunno. Seems to me that with Randy's press one would progressively work through a set of dies, one after the other. So in a broad sense . . . ;)

Noah

[AnthonyB]

The Perfect Progressive Reloader - and a daughter now interested in reloading.

When I was in the hospital last year, I amused myself writing an article about progressive reloading for beginners for submission in a contest on Survivalblog. A few weeks ago, my daughter PCS’d to Alaska and bought a M&P 10mm and a few boxes of hard cast ammo from Buffalo Bore. She plans to visit next month and asked me to teach her how to load her own ammo. She will start with 10mm, but wants to be able to move up to rifle later. I’ll teach her on the Dillon 550. It isn’t perfect, but is the best machine I can imagine for her.
Tony

[dverna]

Cant have a good Ferrari thread without the occasional Fiat review. :kidding:

Tha was funny!!!. IMO Randy has the "Ferrari" of hand tools and is what I would buy if I ever wanted to load that way. I like nice equipment. But I will never need to load that way. My range is off my back porch and my reloading room is down in the basement.

[jmorris]

IMO there is no perfect press.


That is because “perfect” is a moving target. Perfect for what?

That’s why I too have and have had so many, a 1050 is great for making a lot of one load but how long would it take you do do what I do in the last 30 seconds of this video?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3AGbx5YVZk

Start by needing $540 worth of caliber conversions (not counting dies), if you want additional tool heads for the dies, that’s another $200/each. Don’t forget you will also need another $160 primer conversion for the size your machine didn’t come with and around a half hour to swap everything out.

[rancher1913]

OK ----- thats just plain mean :drinks:

[dverna]

J Morris...one reason I had so many progressives at one time.

At the peak of my craziness, I had two 1050's and 55O's, one of each set up for LP and SP...so four machines set up all the time. Plus a couple of SDB's and a Star. Seven metallic progressives on the bench...not as many as you have, but Ok for a plodder like me...LOL.

I am a KISS reloader. I have one load for each pistol caliber, so I am not tweaking stuff all the time. I might be adding a second .38 Spl load this year but if I do, I will not be fussing much with press adjustments. I have 20 primer tubes and will load a batch of 2000 and be set for a while.

Guys who run a plethora of calibers and bullet styles per caliber invest a lot of time doing "unproductive" work. Progressives are not a good choice for them.

IMO most folks would be well served with a Co-Ax and a Dillon 550. The 550 is a bit slow for a competitive pistol shooter but most people do not shoot that much. If they do, saving money on a press is not going to matter much and having a dedicated high-volume press makes a lot of sense. That was my experience anyway.

[Land Owner]

That is because “perfect” is a moving target.\
Edzackly.

My matriculation has been "limited" to (and with no exposure to other than) Lee Loader, to RCBS Rock Chucker Press, to the RCBS Piggyback II (economics driven; ultimately all in), to RCBS Universal Priming Tool and Lee Classic Cast Press to never again prime on the RCBS "progressive", which has suited my rifle hunting and pistol target shooting completely. I "made it work" for me. I can understand the Dillon folk. Marketing, word of mouth, and warranty. RCBS is darn good too. I just never shot enough to justify retooling. The reloading and casting hobbies depend on economic factors, and one's pursuits, which drive the need (or not) to try new stuff.

[Liberty1776]

Started with a Rock Chucker in, like, 1980. Lots of die changes and lots of threading.

Moved to a Dillon 450. Still a lot of threading of dies to make a change, but could load .45ACP and .357 Mag -- my only two calibers -- a lot faster.

Got married; quit reloading for 35 years.

Retired and moved to Arizona. Started reloading again. Updated the 450 to a 550 with interchangeable tool heads. Yea! No more die threading!! The search for the perfect lock nut begins.

Bought a second 550, one for Large primers, one for Small. Experiment fails. Tool heads are adjusted only for a particular press and can't go between two 550 without readjusting. Oh, well.

Discover Lee Spline Drive Breech Lock system.

Convert RCBS Rock Chucker to Lee Spline Drive Breech Lock. Buy a bunch of Lee Spline Drive Lock Bushings.

Discover how fun it was in the beginning with a simple single stage press.

Now I load my rifle and exotic stuff like .458 SOCOM, giant pistol like S&W 500 and odd-ball .327 Fed Mag on the Rock Chucker.

Die change is a dream -- fast and easy. No adjustments. Twist and go. Only one press.

The 550's are reserved for large-volume pistol -- 9mm, 32 H&R Mag, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, .380 ACP.

The real "Progressive" time saver?

The LEE APP.

Decapping and primer pocket swaging were the bane of my existence. Now it's almost fun.

And if I cast some lead boolits, sizing is fast and simple now.

[ddeck22]

I like my Hornady LnL, it's pretty straightforward and I was able to find a really good price on a used one. I couldn't bring myself to spend the money for a Dillon as I wanted to make sure that I am going to do this long term. It's not perfect, as I sometimes have to fiddle with things but no mechanical device will ever be perfect

I agree with the previous poster, the Lee APP for decapping and swaging is an unbelievable piece of equipment. I could never imagine swaging on a single stage press. I was gifted a RCBS primer pocket swager. I lost my mind after 5 cases. So slow and finicky.

[45_Colt]

For me, the RL550B is the perfect progressive reloader. It cranks out a reasonable amount of ammo in a reasonable amount of time. It suits my shooting needs. Doing .45 ACP, .380 ACP and .38spl/.357mag on it.

Low volume stuff such as .45 Colt, .223, and .308 get done on the RCBS.

45_Colt

[Wal']

I have had my Hornady progressive for forty-plus years now, and have had few minor problems whilst reloading mostly pistol rounds....32SWL.....38 Special.....357....9mm & 44 magnums.
Sheared the roll pins in the main shaft while trying to unstick a .243 case, which were easily replaced ........forgot the case lube didn't I....lol
Reloaded .243 & 44.40 on it as well, but found using a newer RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Single Stage Press much better value & easier with rifle rounds.
Overall, a happy chappie with my old Hornady.

[wv109323]

Perfection is one thing, flexibility is another thing. Perfectly flexibie is not perfect.
While the PW800 is good for volume trap or skeet loads it is not the machine to load low volumes of 3 1/2" 12ga. buckshot.
An RCBS rockchucker may be ideal for low volume 45-70 but a high volume .45 acp shooter wants a progressive machine suited for his needs.

[Land Owner]

That is because “perfect” is a moving target. Perfect for what?

Maybe food for another thread, but I don't think I am hijacking this thread...

What is the REASON you use a Progressive Press? To what VOLUME? Principally for RIFLE or for HANDGUN? Are you a HUNTER or a COMPETITIVE SHOOTER? These, and other capabilities, tend to push reloaders in one direction or another.

Through "luck" and choice, I became a MEAT HUNTER. I found that the land I purchase was overrun with hogs. A few deer and a few turkey passed through. Controlling the hogs created a tremendous amount of trigger time. Anchoring the hogs, DRT, to preclude them running off into the thick palmetto and blackberry brambles on the adjacent State's NO HUNTING land is essential. Crawling on hands and knees into the thicket chasing the blood trail of someone's wounded 200+pound hog is a non-starter and recipe for disaster.

Accurate RIFLE rounds became essential to me. ONE AT A TIME crafted RIFLE ammunition became my RULE with one exception. Caliber 223 is the longest round that will fit in my progressive and for a pair of AR-15 rifles I do avail myself, mostly for blamo-ammo. Kids love it. New shooters love it. Shooters introduced to the semi-auto rifle platform appreciate it. Some get an itch and even scratch that itch.

I have no doubt some make accurate ammo on a Progressive. I make handgun (belly gun) ammo on my Progressive for killing 10-yard targets and advancing my confidence for self-defense. I never sought or had a mentor for competitive or long-range handgun shooting. My youngest son can ding an 18" hardened steel plow disc at distances over 100 yards with authority and consistency...so I gave him my Ruger 45 Colt Blackhawk to keep him happy. We have a deal. I make the ammo - on the Progressive. He shoots it with friends and gathers their spent cases in all calibers. I get those cases and another pair of hands, at times, to reload them.

[Messy bear]

I agree with the OP. It seems every machine has it’s problems. I don’t own more than 3 but I have loaded on all the popular ones.
I really wish someone could take all the machines in consideration and build one that covers our concerns. I like the way the 550 works except no auto advance and only 4 stations. Same with
RCBS 4x4. Very smooth but again only 4 stations. LNL pretty good but new ones a bit sloppy. 650 pretty good but has some problems. I know of one that’s almost worn out. Sloppy linkage but lots of use. 1050 great but expensive. Blah blah blah. But I degress

[GWS]

.................

The real "Progressive" time saver?

The LEE APP.

Decapping and primer pocket swaging were the bane of my existence. Now it's almost fun.

And if I cast some lead boolits, sizing is fast and simple now.

Have to agree with that.....and it's even faster with TylerR's free quickchange 3D printer files. Just drop in a case or bullet insert.

So intrigued with that machine! I got to thinking that maybe more single stage machines ought to have bullet and case feeders added. So I tried making another.......RCBS Summit press with an APP-like case feeder that can use Lee APP shuttle parts, and TylerR Quickchange feeder parts........it works and there's no lightweight press to wear out.

https://i.postimg.cc/HnF3f5PD/Summit-APP.png


https://youtu.be/t_eyE792EnY

Now what would really be cool is a Forster with a feeder......quick change case/bullet feeder for a quickchange die press. Jmorris,


.

[salpal48]

Many Loading Companies have Tried to achieve Perfection. Yet Only one has achieved it "STAR "

[Kevin Rohrer]

I don't know anything about shot shell reloader, just those for metallic cartridges. Been a Dillon user for >30-years, first w/ a 550, now w/ a 750. Their presses are nice but have some known limitations and weaknesses. I thought about getting an Apex, but that one looks wayyyyy too fiddly for me to bother with. Have also thought about an 1100 and am still on the fence about getting one.

There is no "best" of anything, just as there is no perfect progressive. It is just a matter of what annoyances you want to tolerate. I tolerate my 750, even though the die plate is too small to easily get to the dies, and Dillon does not sell them w/ set-screw locking rings. Also don't care for for the plastic and low-quality metal parts and the poorly designed, spent primer chute.

I need to take another look at the 1100...

[jetinteriorguy]

Have to agree with that.....and it's even faster with TylerR's free quickchange 3D printer files. Just drop in a case or bullet insert.

So intrigued with that machine! I got to thinking that maybe more single stage machines ought to have bullet and case feeders added. So I tried making another.......RCBS Summit press with an APP-like case feeder that can use Lee APP shuttle parts, and TylerR Quickchange feeder parts........it works and there's no lightweight press to wear out.

https://i.postimg.cc/HnF3f5PD/Summit-APP.png


https://youtu.be/t_eyE792EnY

Now what would really be cool is a Forster with a feeder......quick change case/bullet feeder for a quickchange die press. Jmorris,


.
That’s pretty impressive.

[AZ Pete]

Perfect depends on what you are looking for. I have hand loaded for well nearly 60 years. For me my SDB for pistol calibers, my CoAx for rifle and my PW375 for shotgun are about right. Though I do have a 550b for when I feel the need for speed with rifle calibers.

[dverna]

Nice to see so many using the Co-Ax...even if it is not a progressive. I have had mine for nearly 50 years and would never sell it...and there is no "upgrading" to a better single stage.

[Land Owner]

This is a little aside from the OP, but there is no doubt about it. The reloading "bug" is in us and RCBS estimates there are 2-million of "us". That, to me, is a lot of small ammunition manufacturers - whose capacity may exceed the significantly fewer commercial manufacturers (we can debate that - I have not run any numbers). Whether Lee Loader, single stage, or progressive, I do not see the hobby of reloading "drying up" any time soon though it is essential that we Mentor others to join us.

[M-Tecs]

A "perfect" anything doesn't exist. I do own items that are close to perfect for a specific application, however, when that application changes those items may become far less than "perfect". Reloading is similar to machining is the sense that the "best" methods are the most "preferred" method. Same for a perfect vehicle. When you need to get thru a city traffic jam a bicycle may be close to perfect yet when you need to move 20 tons of cargo a long distance a bicycle is about a far from "perfect" as you can get. I have a bunch of styles of presses.

Press choice usage is based on which is the preferred method for that application. My portable single station range press is my "preferred" press of low volume load development at the range yet it is sorely lacking for high volume runs. For that my Dillon 1050's are very good yet they are a poor choice for range use.

[dverna]

A "perfect" anything doesn't exist. I do own items that are close to perfect for a specific application, however, when that application changes those items may become far less than "perfect". Reloading is similar to machining is the sense that the "best" methods are the most "preferred" method. Same for a perfect vehicle. When you need to get thru a city traffic jam a bicycle may be close to perfect yet when you need to move 20 tons of cargo a long distance a bicycle is about a far from "perfect" as you can get. I have a bunch of styles of presses.

Press choice usage is based on which is the preferred method for that application. My portable single station range press is my "preferred" press of low volume load development at the range yet it is sorely lacking for high volume runs. For that my Dillon 1050's are very good yet they are a poor choice for range use.

Not a very good rationale for evaluating a progressive reloading press. Maybe I should have been more specific and not assumed anything. So let's try it again.

A perfect progressive press has the following attributes:
It will reliably prime on the press
It will automatically drop powder
It will not jam more than once in 500 cycles if it has a case feeder.
It will not need to be cleaned every 2000 rounds to work.
If it has a bullet feeder, it will not malfunction more than one in 500 cycles
It will be easy to change calibers
It will be easy to change primer size.

[megasupermagnum]

Not a very good rationale for evaluating a progressive reloading press. Maybe I should have been more specific and not assumed anything. So let's try it again.

A perfect progressive press has the following attributes:
It will reliably prime on the press
It will automatically drop powder
It will not jam more than once in 500 cycles if it has a case feeder.
It will not need to be cleaned every 2000 rounds to work.
If it has a bullet feeder, it will not malfunction more than one in 500 cycles
It will be easy to change calibers
It will be easy to change primer size.

You just described a turret press. Any press can drop powder. Any press can feed bullets. I have zero interest in anything that doesn't feed cases and auto index. I just don't understand your crazy fascination with reliable primer systems, especially when you are touting a system most of us reloaders dropped like a hot potato as soon as we could. You're even hand feeding cases no less while belittling anything non-Dillon.

Dillon should get off their *****, and upgrade their presses post 1960's tech.

[M-Tecs]

Not a very good rationale for evaluating a progressive reloading press. Maybe I should have been more specific and not assumed anything. So let's try it again.

A perfect progressive press has the following attributes:
It will reliably prime on the press
It will automatically drop powder
It will not jam more than once in 500 cycles if it has a case feeder.
It will not need to be cleaned every 2000 rounds to work.
If it has a bullet feeder, it will not malfunction more than one in 500 cycles
It will be easy to change calibers
It will be easy to change primer size.

Then my 1050's are "perfect". I have two. One for large primers and one for small so switching between large and small is a matter of using a different 1050.

I have a vacuum and compressed air at each machine. I do a quick clean before use. That would be a quick vacuum and blow off. Total time spent cleaning is less than a minute. On my 1050's I avarage one stoppage about every 9,000 rounds.