Elmer Keith’s 38 Spl and 358429 load experiences?

[Hi-Speed]

What do you think of Elmer’s classic 38 Special load using 5.0 grs Unique under Lyman 358429? I use this bullet in 38-44 and 357 Mag loadings, but never handloaded the 38 Spl with 5.0 grs Unique and the 358429. I’m hoping that the 5.0 grs Unique/358429 will serve me well both at the range and on the trail out here.

I’m estimating about 900 fps +/- from a 4 5/8 in Ruger BH.

Appreciate any comments on this Keith load including any history which you can share, it’s accuracy and all around effectiveness.

[Outpost75]

Good load in sturdy revolvers, S&W Model 10-5 and later, Colt Official Police, any of the Rugers. Would avoid in pre-1970 Colt D-frames or S&W J-frames if you want the gun to last.

[Bigslug]

Lyman lists 4.2 grains of Unique as getting you to 841 fps out of a 4" barrel on a "Universal Receiver" which tells me they were probably running a TC Contender with no cylinder gap to bleed pressure from. That said, I'd say your 900 fps estimate is realistic, and honestly, what need is there for faster?

302279

302280

This is a 9mm 135 grain NOE Ranch Dog cast of air cooled wheelweight driven to 1030 fps, which as you can see from the photo I get a great deal of amusement out of, ALLLLLLMOST made it into the tenth water-filled milk jug full of water set at 7 yards.

302281

Also got nine jugs out of the LBT 230 grain .45 at GI speed of 830 fps.

302282

A little more exotic, but the same 130 grain .320" rifle bullet cast of two alloys fired at the same 1250 fps. Nine jugs for the hard one; three for the softer 20-1 version.

So if you want to deploy the .358 Keith's 170 grains of a harder alloy anywhere near the ballpark of a thousand FPS, I have every confidence it'll adequately penetrate anything walking in N. Nevada.

[Hi-Speed]

If I have any energy remaining this evening I’m going to load up about 25 and bring to the range tomorrow am and chronograph.

[dverna]

Big Slug,
Interesting post

[country gent]

Mr Keith liked to tip the bottle, rye bourbon unique 2400 didnt matter

[Kosh75287]

I always thought Uncle Elmer's .38 Special load was 13.5/2400/158 gr. LSWC (DON'T try it!). I thought I remembered 12.5/2400/170 LSWC as Skeeter Skelton's ".357 Mag approximation" using .38 Special cases, back when .357 brass was simply unobtainable. If memory serves, the 170 gr. bullet was crimped in the SECOND crimping groove, giving the round an OAL long enough to keep it out of the more dainty .38 Special revolvers.

[Walks]

In the 1950's - 1970's, we ran the #358429 over 5.0grs of Unique in Colt OP, S&W K frame and SAA's all the time.
Never in a small frame Colt or S&W. My 1968 S&W M10 & 1957 Colt O.P. show no ill effects to this day. A great load for tumbling jackrabbits.
These days I run it lighter in difference to my arthritis.

[MT Gianni]

I always thought Uncle Elmer's .38 Special load was 13.5/2400/158 gr. LSWC (DON'T try it!). I thought I remembered 12.5/2400/170 LSWC as Skeeter Skelton's ".357 Mag approximation" using .38 Special cases, back when .357 brass was simply unobtainable. If memory serves, the 170 gr. bullet was crimped in the SECOND crimping groove, giving the round an OAL long enough to keep it out of the more dainty .38 Special revolvers.

That first one was Skeeters load with the Ray Thompson bullet, 358156 which had dual crimp grooves.

[Bigslug]

Big Slug,
Interesting post

Thank you. I think that it's a lingering of observations made in the day of soft core, rapidly-expanding, and sometimes fragile jacketed bullets that often cause many of us to lean toward cast bullets that may be heavier, or loads that my be hotter, than needed for the job at hand.

As I often say of the original blackpowder .45 Colt loadings - that round was intended to screw not just you, but also the horse you rode in on, so I have trouble seeing the sense in trying to turn it into a wrist-pummeling .454 Casull unless maybe for sake of trajectory. With proper bullet selection, the .357 kinda falls into the same boat, and I like where the OP is trying to go.

[jmcghee]

. I thought I remembered 12.5/2400/170 LSWC as Skeeter Skelton's ".357 Mag approximation" using .38 Special cases, back when .357 brass was simply unobtainable. If memory serves, the 170 gr. bullet was crimped in the SECOND crimping groove, giving the round an OAL long enough to keep it out of the more dainty .38 Special revolvers.[/QUOTE] I dont think that is the correct load. I have the article he wrote about that load. I will post Skeeters load latter .

[jmcghee]

. If memory serves, the 170 gr. bullet was crimped in the SECOND crimping groove, giving the round an OAL long enough to keep it out of the more dainty .38 Special revolvers.[/QUOTE] Skeeter had no concern for dainty revolvers His objective was ,self defense. He was carrying two guns at the time a 357 and a 38 HD As a latter poster has said it was a 158 grain bullet. I will post the article latter

[derek45]

Mr Keith liked to tip the bottle, rye bourbon unique 2400 didnt matter

LOL

maybe so,...be he also shot more than he typed, . . . . unlike most gun writers

[fn1889m]

“38 Spl with 5.0 grs Unique and the 358429…
I’m estimating about 900 fps +/- from a 4 5/8 in Ruger BH.”

Doing the same. 5 gn Unique, bullets weigh 169-171, made from range scrap. To be fired from a 5.5” Ruger New Vaquero. Tumble lubed, sized to .358”.

Trying to duplicate some vintage/classic loads. This was listed in the Lyman CB #3. It’s not in #4. I suspect it, or its equivalent, was moved to the +P or .357 section.

I get the impression that Unique (and maybe Bullseye) are falling out of favor, if only with manufacturers, replaced by more modern powders that are cheaper to make, cleaner, and which serve a broader range of applications. I know that Unique, Bullseye, and 231/HP38 filled a lot of cases over time. But they are becoming vintage powders. Which is part of their appeal. I can do all my pistol reloading with these powders. I picked up some Shooters World Clean Shot because it was available. But I am not doing anything that a reloader/shooter could not do in 1950.

[HWooldridge]

LOL

maybe so,...be he also shot more than he typed, . . . . unlike most gun writers

He blew up a few guns, too - so he sometimes pushed the envelope.

[Shiloh]

Elmer loaded Hot.
He used heavy frame 38/44

Im not a fan of torture testing my firearms. Your gun, do what you want.

Shiloh

[fn1889m]

What do you think of Elmer’s classic 38 Special load using 5.0 grs Unique under Lyman 358429?…. Appreciate any comments on this Keith load including any history which you can share, it’s accuracy and all around effectiveness.

Shot this last Sunday with apx 170 gn cast from range lead, over 5.0 gn of Unique, at 15 and 50 yards, two hands unsupported. The bullets ranged from 169-172 gn. I find range lead to be pretty soft, variable, heavy. Fired from a SW686 with a 4 inch barrel. It did not have as much recoil as expected, it was a heavy revolver.

The surprise, though it should not have been, was how much drop at 50 yards. Quite a bit. Will try with 158 +P to compare. Will try again this Sunday with a SW27, 5 inch barrel and New Vaquero, 5.5 inch.

[Kosh75287]

I'D like to know how many grains of Unique in a .38 Special case will propel a 158 gr. LSWC or LRNFP at 1100 f/s from a 4" barrel IN A .357 Magnum revolver. Since I own no .38 Special firearms, and do not loan out my reloads to others, THIS load would be JUST for my use. Its intent would be for general purposes, but also for social situations, should they arise. The .38 Special case is shorter, and slightly faster and easier to eject than the longer .357 magnum case (which, yes, I know, will develop the desired ballistics), which mat mean life or death if I must fight someone with a revolver.

[pworley1]

I really like the bullet but I don't load it that hot for the 38 special.

[David2011]

Lyman lists 4.2 grains of Unique as getting you to 841 fps out of a 4" barrel on a "Universal Receiver" which tells me they were probably running a TC Contender with no cylinder gap to bleed pressure from.


A gunsmith in northeast Texas told me that he once did testing at Lyman. He said the universal receivers were M96 Swedish Mauser receivers. That wasn't the point of the conversation but I wish now I had asked more questions. Lyman usually specifies the type of firearm if they used, for example, a Ruger Blackhawk with a 7-1/2" barrel. I once loaded up some of their Ruger/Contender only loads for my Contender with a 14" .44 Mag barrel. They got 1350 fps with a Super Blackhawk with its cylinder gap and 7-1/2" barrel. My perfectly sealed 14" barrel chronographed the same load at 1600 fps.

[Kosh75287]

I once loaded up some of their Ruger/Contender only loads for my Contender with a 14" .44 Mag barrel. They got 1350 fps with a Super Blackhawk with its cylinder gap and 7-1/2" barrel. My perfectly sealed 14" barrel chronographed the same load at 1600 fps.
I know the results may be "underwhelming", but I don't find the comparison implausible. Losing only 250 f/s from a vented barrel that is 47% shorter than the un-vented one, that's not awful. Extrapolating to what might be had from a 18.5" barrel I get 1750 f/s, which is about what I'd expect.

[nicholst55]

Personally, I think that 5.0 grains of Unique under a 358429 is too hot a load for standard .38 Special. In some books, that's a starting load for .357 Mag. I download mine a bit, and don't feel undergunned.

[megasupermagnum]

He blew up a few guns, too - so he sometimes pushed the envelope.

It was only one. A 45 colt SAA, and he was shooting 45-70 bullets out of it. I'm not sure I've seen what the powder load was, but I would guess it was all of the 2400 that he could. He then stepped back, wrote some experts, learned, and never blew up another gun.

Your talking about a guy who was burned alive as a kid, took some hard liquor, and had his parents peel is burned skin apart on his hand so he could use it again.

He didn't make mistakes twice. His later published loads might be a little strong for the sissy engineers, but I trust them.

[rkrcpa]

It was only one. A 45 colt SAA, and he was shooting 45-70 bullets out of it. I'm not sure I've seen what the powder load was, but I would guess it was all of the 2400 that he could.

As I recall it was Dupont #80 that he had ground to the consistency of flour.