The dangers of buying a used muzzleloader

[hornady308]

A couple of weeks ago I picked up a standard CVA .45 flintlock Kentucky rifle for $100. Looking the gun over it was evident that it had never been fired but was obviously 30 or 40 years old. It had been assembled from a kit and the original owner did a very poor job of putting it together. I figured with a little work and a few new parts I could make it into a decent rifle. One of the missing parts was a thimble for the ramrod. When the parts arrived I had to remove the barrel from the stock in order to install the thimble. It was at this point that I noticed that the chamber area of the barrel had been completely milled away! This was only noticeable with the barrel removed from the stock. Had I put 60 grains of 3F powder down this barrel and topped it with a round ball, right now I would be busy picking splinters out of my forearm. The original owner is dead and the person who sold the rifle had no idea this had been done. Why this was done remains a mystery as the barrel appears to be in perfect condition (minus the rather important steel in the chamber area). Bottom line: when buying a used muzzleloader, assume that it is loaded and/or that someone may have intentionally made the firearm unusable in an attempt to make it "safe" for display. Now I have to find a 45 flintlock Kentucky barrel.
302062

[bedbugbilly]

That certainly is a "head scratcher". Good thing that you caught and a good reminder to check things over thoroughly on a gun you purchase - better safe than sorry! In 60 years of working on and shooting muzzleloaders - I've never seen something like that - makes no sense at all. Thanks for sharing.

[725]

It's a pain, but you can shorten the barrel and refit the lock to the new location up the barrel. I had a $25 percussion capper with a roached out breach, I cut off a few inches of cancer and re-breached. It was a no-where CVA sidelock. Nothing special. A lot of tinkering, sanding & staining and refitting and it became a real treasure. Ended up taking the biggest whitetail I've ever gotten. Why in the world somebody would do such a dangerous thing to a rifle is a mystery to me. Then again, people's stupidity really has no bounds.

[LAGS]

I agree that the barrel ( if the bore is good ) can have the breech plug removed and the barrel be shortened , then the plug be reinstalled.
If you do that.
There are other things that will have to be changed for the barrel to fit back into the stock properly.
You can also find a used barrel or even a blank barrel from TOW and set it up using the old breech plug.
This looks more like someone DAWT'ed the barrel to make it safe for display like at a school or to be used in a parade where they do not allow functioning guns for legal or safety reasons.
IMO.
The rifle is Salvageable.
It might cost you a bit to make it right.
Or if you do not want to invest a lot of time or money.
You can just sell it to others for Parts for them to rebuild another rifle that may have some meaning to them.
Like Grandpa's gun or even their first ML that needs repairs.
Heck,
The parts may sell for more than you paid for the rifle.

[GregLaROCHE]

Someone might buy it for a wall hanger.

[Winger Ed.]

Maybe it was always intended to be a wall hanger,
but if it got stolen- somebody was going to get a big surprise.

[BP Dave]

Isn't that where the magazine goes?

[Winger Ed.]

Isn't that where the magazine goes?

Look at that. You should be ashamed.
Thousands of comedians all across the country are out of work---- and you're trying to be funny.

[beemer]

I was given a 1 in. 50 cal. 42 in Dixie barrel that had never been fired. Someone had made a really stupid looking wall hanger using this barrel. A hole had been drilled through to the bore and tapped to hold the forestock. They tried to mill for a rear sight and made a mess, top and bottom and did a tap job again. There was 35 in. of beautiful cut rifling between the mess on each end. Tried for 20 years to find someone locally to cut it for a new plug.

I live about 45 miles from Rice Barrels. I went to buy a new barrel and decided to take the 50 along. He couldn't believe someone made such a mess, I assured him it wasn't me. I bought a new barrel and he bored and tapped the old .50 barrel and supplied a plug for a reasonable price. Jason makes a fine barrel and is a gentleman of high caliber.

[BP Dave]

OK, seriously, this looks like a lot of work just to demil the barrel. Drilling holes is fairly easy, but milling an oval in line with the barrel, which this seems to be, takes a bit more skill and equipment. And from the photo, the quality of the work doesn't look too bad.

I wonder if they were trying to make something--perhaps some kind of breechloader. How does the location of the milled hole match up with the nipple and touchhole?

[armoredman]

Ah, the very, very, very early prototype of the Pederson Device...

[725]

BP Dave - You made me laugh. :)

[indian joe]

That certainly is a "head scratcher". Good thing that you caught and a good reminder to check things over thoroughly on a gun you purchase - better safe than sorry! In 60 years of working on and shooting muzzleloaders - I've never seen something like that - makes no sense at all. Thanks for sharing.

easy fix
cut it - reclaim the breechplug/tang and refit it - drill and tap and fit a nice coned touch hole liner - cut the wood (the forend part) where the join in the stock is by the same amount as you cut the barrel and its done !!!! That barrel will shoot better than you can!

[Shawlerbrook]

Doubt if that was to demill or make it inoperable ( as it still could be loaded, shot and blown up). It is a mystery what they were trying to accomplish.

[hornady308]

Perhaps it was a gift to someone that was hated. �� The milled area is just in front of the touch hole and directly on the bottom of the barrel. If someone had tried to fire it the explosion would have driven the bottom of the stock directly into their forearm. I'm not a great machinist, but I think I will try to reclaim the barrel and make this a nice little flintlock. I don't have much to lose. I'll start on the project this weekend and keep you guys advised in case you have some words of wisdom.

[yeahbub]

Ohmigosh!!! That's a major injury waiting to happen. God was looking out for you that things worked out the way they have.

It would take a bit of work, but it could be cut back and re-breached - and the threads could be well-anointed with thick anti-seize to prevent fouling from infiltrating the threads and starting corrosion. The tennons for the keys or pins would have to be moved forward an equal distance and re-installed to accommodate the original key/pin positions, but that's not too difficult. If the barrel is retained with pins, the tennons could be open-slotted to the rear instead of drilled, for easy barrel removal forward and which would also prevent having to locate them perfectly or re-drilling the holes.

I once had a discount factory-second barrel I had bought years ago which turned out to have breech threads cut about 3/8" deeper than the breech plug could reach, leaving a portion of the relatively weak threaded wall exposed to breech pressure. It must have been a reject because the bore was so rough it couldn't be used.

[Gtek]

Not to add to your pain but I was thinking really aggressive dry ball removal. The stock and lock if nice are pulling way more than a bill on the auction sites. Does that not have a 1-48? What about a nice real round ball barrel made to duplicate removed specimen, threading the back, a hole in the side and a couple dovetails and you might end up with a pretty nice piece! And you could slide into a 40, 36, 32 pretty easy?

[fiberoptik]

I bought 2 muzzleloaders used. Both were loaded powder- ball, powder- ball. Thank God I didn’t try to shoot them out!


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[LAGS]

I bought a used TC Renagade barrel.
It had a load in it.
But it was also so rusted in the breech from the powder being in there for I guess years that the breech plug was rusted in.
The threads on the breech plug did get stripped when taking out the breech plug.
I will just shorten the barrel by about an inch.
Then have it rethreaded for a new breech plug.

[Hannibal]

I'd say this is a good example of why buying just about anything used is a risk. You never know what the previous owner may have done.

Watched a guy try to drive a bone stock 4x4 through a shallow pond several years ago. Got stuck about 2/3rds of the way through. Sat in that pond for about 3 hours until enough tow straps and tractors arrived to drag it out. By that time there was several inches of pond water standing in the floor boards. Even the air filter housing had water in it. I heard that he sold it within a couple of weeks. No telling what it cost the new owner over time. First time that truck had been off the road.

Let the buyer beware.

[bedbugbilly]

Indian Joe - I agree it's an easy fixed - I have re-breeched a number of barrels over the years . Just a mystery as to why anyone would go to the trouble to mill the slot - not a brilliant move to do it on the underside if intended to "de-mil" the piece and not mark it somewhere so someone would know. But who knows? Conjurs up the scheme of an angry wife who has her machines lover do the work so her husband get's a "fatal surprise the next time he goes shooting! :-)

[pietro]

.

FWIW, CVS breeching is different from most other muzzleloaders - for one thing, they install the drum/ignition channel after the breech block is installed, thereby locking the breech to the barrel.

There is a reason why famed (read: expert) muzzleloader barrel gunsmith Bobby Hoyt refuses to work on CVA barrels.

[indian joe]

.

FWIW, CVS breeching is different from most other muzzleloaders - for one thing, they install the drum/ignition channel after the breech block is installed, thereby locking the breech to the barrel.

There is a reason why famed (read: expert) muzzleloader barrel gunsmith Bobby Hoyt refuses to work on CVA barrels.

That reason may not be what you surmise it is ?

In any case this gun is a different kettle if fish
The only CVA flinters I have seen were conversions - some folk sawed the nipple drum off flush and tapped a liner into the flash channel - makes for slow ignition
Mine I removed the nipple drum, made a coned touch hole liner threaded to suit and away we went

Before you scream about weakening the breech end take a look at whats there (or better still measure it) you see that even with this modification there is as much thread engagement with the remaining breech plug as other "properly breeched" barrels have - I dont see a safety issue here.

If you are careful you can unbreech a CVA and put it back together just fine - just requires properly indexing the plug to the barrel so the nipple drum threads engage

-----none of which matters with this particular gun cuz he is gonna saw the damaged end off the barrel and rethread it for the salvaged breech plug (which I proly would trim back to solid and eliminate the fancy bit where the drum locks it all up) What makes this job easy is the two piece stock of the Kentucky model - dont need to refit all the front end stuff just cut the forend wood back same amount as the barrel is cut and it all pops back together

[yeahbub]

Another point about the CVA barrels made in Spain is that they were button-rifled. This work-hardened the bore surfaces and reduced wear, but they were difficult barrels to fresh out. Also, the deepest rifling achievable with the steel and equipment of the day was .008" rather than the preferred .010. I had three Mountain rifles and all shot well enough. A fellow I knew had a CVA in .54 cal and when he freshed the barrel, he wound up having a carbide cutter made so it would do the job. Happily, he got it done without chipping off and embedding carbide in the steel which would have instantly converted it to junk. I though the breech design, cross-pinning the breech plug with the long nipple drum into the opposite barrel wall was a very strong arrangement, but probably over-built and presented alignment problems if it was ever unbreeched. The breech plug had to be tightened just the right amount so there wasn't any interference when screwing the drum back in. Tough to do without mangling the soft breech hook while trying to get it adjusted just right. Of course, they didn't use any anti-seize compound to seal the crevices in the threads, so unbreaching one after years of use was such a joy.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Indeed, I have de breeched a couple of CVAs, they are not fun!

[indian joe]

Another point about the CVA barrels made in Spain is that they were button-rifled. This work-hardened the bore surfaces and reduced wear, but they were difficult barrels to fresh out. Also, the deepest rifling achievable with the steel and equipment of the day was .008" rather than the preferred .010. I had three Mountain rifles and all shot well enough. A fellow I knew had a CVA in .54 cal and when he freshed the barrel, he wound up having a carbide cutter made so it would do the job. Happily, he got it done without chipping off and embedding carbide in the steel which would have instantly converted it to junk. I though the breech design, cross-pinning the breech plug with the long nipple drum into the opposite barrel wall was a very strong arrangement, but probably over-built and presented alignment problems if it was ever unbreeched. The breech plug had to be tightened just the right amount so there wasn't any interference when screwing the drum back in. Tough to do without mangling the soft breech hook while trying to get it adjusted just right. Of course, they didn't use any anti-seize compound to seal the crevices in the threads, so unbreaching one after years of use was such a joy.

Interesting! I much prefer the .008" rifling depth of the CVA over deeper such as green mountain - have had a couple of those - good barrels but not as easy to get shooting as a CVA. deeper rifling to accomodate blackpowder fouling was the story I got told - never made much sense to me .

[indian joe]

Indeed, I have de breeched a couple of CVAs, they are not fun!

yeahbut the op is on a different tack with this one - shorten up and re-breech ........

[n.h.schmidt]

To you guys that have removed the CVA breaches. How did you do it? You don't have much to grab onto with the hook.Especially the button hook. I have done it a couple of times but had to use a torch and get them red hot. If once you get the breech plug out You can't just saw off the drum part for a conversion or you get about two threads left on the plug.

[indian joe]

To you guys that have removed the CVA breaches. How did you do it? You don't have much to grab onto with the hook.Especially the button hook. I have done it a couple of times but had to use a torch and get them red hot. If once you get the breech plug out You can't just saw off the drum part for a conversion or you get about two threads left on the plug.

only done one - a bloke gave me - needed a torch - old barrel had been "rode hard and put away wet" more often than not - did it to see what was in there (years ago) --for this project I think I would proly cut the dodgy piece of barrel off then split it off the tang/plug - dremel cut longwise almost into the threads then drive a wedge into the cut till the plug screws out easy -- just thinking of saving the tang so it doesnt need a new one re fitting ----what did that feller say about shortcuts???????

[Life Member]

Maybe he hid something in there.

[DaveM]

Good grief.

It's a good example of why it's handy to have one of those cheap borescopes you can buy on Amazon.

[Baltimoreed]

Not a big deal to make the old barrel work. Good thing you looked.