Why 6-cavity for rifles?

[StanDahl]

Maybe I missed something along the way with the evolution of the Lee group mould buy, but why all the excitement about 6-cavity moulds for rifles? 6-cavities can be handy for pistols, but it seems counter-productive for rifles unless you're just interested in plinking. Are more of you casting for machine-guns than are letting on?

My Lee Fat 30 mould casts all over the place. There isn't a mould I own that throws such a variety of bullet weights. For accuracy a one or two hole mould would be most desirable. Looking at Lee's catalog, there aren't even any 6-cavity moulds available for rifle calibers. Some of these group buys have looked interesting, but I don't have an interest in the kind of sorting that I've had to do after casting with the Fat 30. I had to turn my sorting board sideways to accomodate the spread. I suppose I could mark a cavity or two and use it like a smaller mould, but then I'd rather just use a smaller mould. What gives? Stan

[David R]

They work for me. I can pour up 1,000 in no time which leaves me more time for shooting. MY 311407 mold doesn't vary by .5 grains for all 6 boolits. That would be .3% NOT 3%, but three tenths of a percent. Casting the
BruceB method has given me more consistant boolits than I have ever used.

I don't think I could stand to use a single cavity. I am a pistol shooter, but shoot lots of rifle too. A sillywet match uses 40 rounds. Pour em in a single or 6 banger? If I go to the range, I usually shoot 50 or 100 rounds out of my rifle. So does my son.

YOU can pour em one at a time, but I'll pass.

I have found since using the BruceB method, I can knock out about 250 ot 350 150 grain 30 cal in 1/2 hour from a lyman double cavity. Around 500 from a 6 cavity. It is not a race, but its nice to watch em pile up with so little effort.

Like my dad says "they fall out like raindrops"

David

[lar45]

I like the better quality of the 6 cavity molds. The 1 and 2 don't line up very well and seem to get loose fairly quickly.

I emailed Lee asking if they would do a 2 cavity on the 6 cavity design for better quality and have it take the 6 cav handles. They said they would pass it on. Maybe if a bunch of us asked for it they would?

Maybe if we want to do a rifle mold sometime, we could ask them to cut us some 2 cavity versions of the 6 cav then they could prototype it out on us and we could give them feedback to see if they wanted to make it a production item?
I would be happy to pay the Midway 6 cav price of $32 for a good 2 cav mold.

[rocklock]

Having 11 8mm rifles of various flavors, I'd LOVE a good 8mm 6 cavity mould.

[Junior1942]

>I would be happy to pay the Midway 6 cav price of $32 for a good 2 cav mold.

So would I.

[SharpsShooter]

Mountain Molds makes 2 cavity or 3 cavity in many calibers. Iron, brass or Aluminum to your specs. They are a bit more than the mentioned $32, but you get a quality mold that will drop the dimensions you want with the alloy you specify.

[Buckshot]

................Stan, the main attraction to the Lee 6 cavity is very simply production. You can cast a ton of good useable slugs in a relatively short time. I'm sure that 98% of the guys buying and using these in the rifle designs are not doing benchrest competition with thm. Yet they CAN be doing competition such as short range silhuette (200 meter rams) , or informal paper target stuff.

For ultimate accuracy even a guy using a SC is going to be scaling, plus tough visual inspections. Assuming a dump every 15 seconds for 1 hour of steady work with a SC you get 240 slugs. With the 6 cavity you'll get 1440. Now I doubt someone will work steadily for an hour, so this is just a simple comparison.

Even discarding half of the 6 cavity mould's production you still have about 3 times the SC's total output before culling for the same amount of time.

For a test I plan to do with the 6.5 Kurtz, I cast up 3 full one pound coffee cans full. One of 12 bhn, 16bhn, and 21 bhn. I have no idea how many are in each can, but I'd guess 12 lbs at the minimum. I cast them all in an afternoon and that included breaks, re-adding sprues, and lubing the mould on occasion, running to listen to the answering machine, and grabbing the odd can of pop.

..................Buckshot

[Ranch Dog]

I'm with you Stan. I'm not interested in bullets from a 6 cavity mold. Two many rejects and too many variables from bullet to bullet.

[sundog]

Lee soup can in a six banger is great. Plinking boolits for 30-30 (or others) by the piles. Makes it easier to keep the grandkids supplied. Can't say that would be any good for accuracy loads though. I've got a couple other 6 bangers, but in every case they are for production, not accuracy. I have one SAECO 4-banger that is fairly consistent across. I prefer my Lyman and RCBS 2 bangers for good boolits for rifle. I've always done it that way and it works for me. Now, for pissola boolits, can't beat the 6 bangers. sundog

[Newtire]

I like the quality of the 6-cavity mostly I guess and the fact that you can sure cast a good supply of bullets in a hurry. With my new 311407, I poured a couple sample runs with WW alloy, dumped em out carefully, made all the measurements, weighed them & made a nice little chart for myself with all the specs. I would post it but it's too big to post & I don't know how? It should allow me to cast with the selected cavities in the middle and get bullets the same weight. The weight variation in my mould was .6 grain. They weighed 174.4gr.-175.0gr. I thought that was pretty cool. I shot a group of those at 50 yds. on Friday afternoon and planted 5 into 7/8" for the smallest group. Shot 2-three shot 1/2" groups at that distance also. Used a cleaned up M-94 Black Shadow with a 4X scope, 30.5gr-H-335, sized .310" water dropped WW. Ties for 1st place with the 311041 in that gun. I will agree that a good two cavity would be fast enough if they could make sure the cavities are consistent.

[Bass Ackward]

I would say that one of the biggest myths in shooting cast bullets is the need for perfect bullets to shoot accurately. Especially, at normal cast bullet velocities.

I have taken cold mold rejects at 2300 fps in a 35 and held 3/4" at 100 yards. What happens farther out? Can't tell you because that is as far as I have shot bad bullets. My odds for success do tend to improve if I scrutinize better over this velocity level too. But even here there are exceptions. That 311440, 6 holer will hold 1 3/4" at almost 2900 fps just loading and bang.

Then you hear success stories about people that Beagle their molds. Regardless whether you size round or not, you can't size those lube grooves round, so you are out of balance no matter what. And they shoot.

And then you come to bore rides and or any other bullet that has to or will naturally obturate (deform) to seal. Counting on obturation to make a perfectly slumped bullet under uncontrolled conditions and varying ignition and pressures just somehow ...... well, it works too at times.

I sort visually. I weight nothing and I even shoot most of what others would consider rejects anymore. I don't index. And somehow I do it successfully enough to satisfy me.

[Newtire]

I would say that one of the biggest myths in shooting cast bullets is the need for perfect bullets to shoot accurately. Especially, at normal cast bullet velocities.

I have taken cold mold rejects at 2300 fps in a 35 and held 3/4" at 100 yards. What happens farther out? Can't tell you because that is as far as I have shot bad bullets. My odds for success do tend to improve if I scrutinize better over this velocity level too. But even here there are exceptions. That 311440, 6 holer will hold 1 3/4" at almost 2900 fps just loading and bang.

Then you hear success stories about people that Beagle their molds. Regardless whether you size round or not, you can't size those lube grooves round, so you are out of balance no matter what. And they shoot.

And then you come to bore rides and or any other bullet that has to or will naturally obturate (deform) to seal. Counting on obturation to make a perfectly slumped bullet under uncontrolled conditions and varying ignition and pressures just somehow ...... well, it works too at times.

I sort visually. I weight nothing and I even shoot most of what others would consider rejects anymore. I don't index. And somehow I do it successfully enough to satisfy me.
OK Bass,
Now I gotta know what kind of rifle is making those 311440's go 2900fps? Is that out of an '06 perchance? Just wondering what alloy & such if you could please & thank you sir..I thought I was doing great with my 2100+ 30-30 170 grainers! I hear you about the moulds that are not so round even shooting great. I think
I would rather have a nice round bullet but an old Lee 190 gr. that I have shoots great & it is not real close to round anymore. Someone beat it up pretty good but still keeps tickin'.

[StanDahl]

Okay, I get the idea - volume! I'll have to go with Newtire's observations with his 6-cav and figure out which cavities agree with each other and go with them. I've done that before with smaller moulds and now I know what to expect, although while sorting the various cavities expectorata, the mould cools and may throw things off a bit. I may lightly punch the cavities to mark them and sort later.

I still can't see plinking with a 190 grain gc'd bullet, but Sundog's Soupcan example is definitely a good candidate for a plinker - unless it's gaschecked.

BTW, I was using a BruceB technique with my Fat 30, and still got crummy results. I didn't give it much of a try, only about 120 bullets, and I didn't, for some reason give it a thorough Lee-menting before using it.

[45 2.1]

I still can't see plinking with a 190 grain gc'd bullet.

Some of us plink at rather long range.

[Frank46]

StanDahl, ok here's my two cents worth. I have a bad back. And cannot sit for any length of time on a stool without proper back support. With that mold I'd be cranking out boolits faster in much less time than a two banger. And I gurantee you that my buddy who shoots only hard cast outta his peestols would want to get into the action. Course he's kinda CHEEEP but what the heck. And I know for sure if i bought a six banger for the 44 magnums
we both have he'd want to try the home grown variety. The first sentence or so was not meant to be sarcastic and I hope you don't see it that way. Frank

[Lloyd Smale]

im with him on this one. I used to sort and wieght all my bullets cull out any that were visually impared or with weights more then 3% of the average. Id end up culling probably 15 percent of my production. I remelted the bad ones till one day my buddy who by the way has shot more cast bullets then anyone i know came over and asked me what the hell i was doing. He said if i didnt want those bullets hed take em. I thought he was nuts wasting his time with junk bullets. This went on for about two years until one day while we were shooting he showed me a 2.5 inch opensighted group fired with his linebaugh not at 25 yards but at 100. He did this with my reject bullets!! I still throw away the visually impared ones but no longer waste my time weighting bullets and ive never noticed any of my guns shoot any the less for it. I think if a guy was just shootin handguns you could skip the sorting of even the visually impared ones too!
I would say that one of the biggest myths in shooting cast bullets is the need for perfect bullets to shoot accurately. Especially, at normal cast bullet velocities.

I have taken cold mold rejects at 2300 fps in a 35 and held 3/4" at 100 yards. What happens farther out? Can't tell you because that is as far as I have shot bad bullets. My odds for success do tend to improve if I scrutinize better over this velocity level too. But even here there are exceptions. That 311440, 6 holer will hold 1 3/4" at almost 2900 fps just loading and bang.

Then you hear success stories about people that Beagle their molds. Regardless whether you size round or not, you can't size those lube grooves round, so you are out of balance no matter what. And they shoot.

And then you come to bore rides and or any other bullet that has to or will naturally obturate (deform) to seal. Counting on obturation to make a perfectly slumped bullet under uncontrolled conditions and varying ignition and pressures just somehow ...... well, it works too at times.

I sort visually. I weight nothing and I even shoot most of what others would consider rejects anymore. I don't index. And somehow I do it successfully enough to satisfy me.

[Buckshot]

..............Why the 6 cavity:

http://www.fototime.com/34DC7833A633206/standard.jpg
Lee 358-148WC 6 cavity. One of the easiest to cast moulds I have. Run this rascal about as fast as you can move. Alloy for these was pure lead. Practicly O culls. Pure lead is a joy to cast. The box is 3" deep and 5" wide. About 8" from the back to the ramp. A good solid 15 lbs of slugs.


http://www.fototime.com/FC7FB74B506D8FB/standard.jpg
The 311407 Mod Lee group buy slug. Cast at 18 bhn, 850 degrees. Fill the mould, strike the sprue and dump (takes a couple taps). close the blocks and touch the bottom of the blocks to a damp pad, refill and repeat. Go as fast as you care to. Very few base failures to pick out. This box is 3" deep, 6" wide and a good 10" back to the ramp. Should be 5-600 good slugs there.

http://www.fototime.com/A30C5C8DCA91B7F/standard.jpg
So you can make a TON of good using, shooting slugs in not a whole lot of time.

As per the use of any other mould, when the sprueplate is swung the bases are looked at, and when they're dumped the bullets get glanced at. In the process of scooting them down the ramp any that don't look good are plucked out and returned to the pot. In the course of looking at them when loading very few are tossed in the junk box.

....................Buckshot

[David R]

I guess I shoot my rifles as much as peeestols. SO I cast for them the same way. Somehow haveing 10,000 boolits poured and ready to shoot gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

I have the same problem as Frank. I can stand for 1/2 hour in front of the pot to cast boolits. If I can get twice as many boolits for my 1/2 hour, then I will do it. If the boolit fits the gun, it will shoot just as good from a 2 cavity as a 6. Try it and see.

David

[waksupi]

Some of us plink at rather long range.

I don't know why people assume plinking is a close range sport. I'm another long range plinker. We were shooting ML's out to 300 yards on Saturday, after the main shoot. That included a smoothbore flinter.

[Leftoverdj]

My offhand shooting has never been what it should be. I've finally decided to work at it. That means 50 rounds a session, 3-4 sessions a week. One inch 50 yard groups are plenty good for this work for me. and I can get that from visually inspected bullets from a six cavity mould.

I'm coming along.

[Buckshot]

..................It IS al practice. Practice DOES make perfcet (or closer to it). I never cared for handguns as ai couldn't hit anything with them. I got some instruction from Deputy Al and some others. Plus I got a pistol that readily lets you know who is at fault. I carry my Ruger MII in my rangebox and will fire 5-6 ten round groups at 25 yards offhand.

This simple thing has made a vast improvement in my abillity to hit with a handgun. Leave us not poo-poo the 22RF :-)

Your mind takes a snapshot of the sight picture when the round fires, and you know if you were there or not when it goes off. This is assuming a rifle/handgun you're familair with, so if the shot is wide you know who's to blame.

I still get the BFD on occasion. This is the Brain/Finger/Disconnect. You see the bull hang nicely on the front post as you take up the slack, but it then drifts off. Yet your finger pulls the trigger anyway without any conscience though. It's a renegade! Dern finger!

............Buckshot

[Scrounger]

All sadly true. Rifles are the most forgiving for skipping practice, then shotguns. There is no forgiveness at all in pistol. You could remove your renegade finger, of course, but the problem would transfer to whatever finger you used instead. Proving of course that it is not a finger problem but a software glitch. Did you know that trapshooters have that same problem? Their solution is what is known as the 'release trigger'. You pull the trigger during the aiming process and the gun fires when you release the trigger. Theory is that it requires a more concious act, therefore your 'logical' mind has a better control of the actual time of fire. Supposedly a cure for flinching, too. Helped some people, didn't do a thing for others. Personally I never used one, considered them unsafe

[C1PNR]

I remember a very accomplished trap shooting friend telling me of his experience with the release trigger.

At first he thought it would help with his scoring. But in the end he said he had been shooting a normal trigger so long, that when his trigger finger went forward, so did the butt stock. In no time he had the worst flinch in history.:)

[Oldfeller]

First, I assume somebody has lapped all six cavities so they are the same dimensionally and that they drop bullets easily from the mold when you open it.

If you haven't done this, you will be casting slowly, beating on things to get bullets out and having a very interrupted irregular casting rythm that isn't going to help your bullet consistency any.

If your mold is HOT, and you are casting fast using Bruce's wet rag tricks you will get the very best frosty consistency you will get out of a six hole mold. Still, I still have to visually cull any rounded gas check shanks when lubricising. This and some occasional unfilled bands generally run around a 5-10% cull rate on a good run out of a six banger mold (with me being all picky).

On the flip side, I have put an entire half hour's run into the scrap can due to unfilled bands on a recently acquired loverin type mold and took the mold over for some more tune lapping to get it to fill and release better (and get some more consistent land top engagement size on those front 2 bands).

The best casting six hole molds are the larger bullet diameters with the wider bands (the fewer bands the better). They still require culling but the yeild rate is much much better.

The absolute worst molds cull-rate-wise for me are the tiny multi-band loverins. They generally require some good percentage tin added to the metal to get some better fill if you want to cut down on your cull rate later.

To get the absolute best consistent fill on a six banger mold, you really have to treat each sprue cone as a single cavity mold, hitting it with a centered stream of lead. Then you go to the next one, actuating the lever arm six times.

Reality is I don't do this, I run the lead down the line trying to hit the hole as fast as I can. This casting "cheater" is directly a cause for the rounded bases I then cull out for later.

But, some culling at the lubriciser is a fair price to pay for all them frosty nice bullets that you get in a half an hour's casting. Numbers do count .... and six is a lot better than 1-2.

Oldfeller

[Newtire]

First, I assume somebody has lapped all six cavities so they are the same dimensionally and that they drop bullets easily from the mold when you open it.

If you haven't done this, you will be casting slowly, beating on things to get bullets out and having a very interrupted irregular casting rythm that isn't going to help your bullet consistency any.

If your mold is HOT, and you are casting fast using Bruce's wet rag tricks you will get the very best frosty consistency you will get out of a six hole mold. Still, I still have to visually cull any rounded gas check shanks when lubricising. This and some occasional unfilled bands generally run around a 5-10% cull rate on a good run out of a six banger mold (with me being all picky).

On the flip side, I have put an entire half hour's run into the scrap can due to unfilled bands on a recently acquired loverin type mold and took the mold over for some more tune lapping to get it to fill and release better (and get some more consistent land top engagement size on those front 2 bands).

The best casting six hole molds are the larger bullet diameters with the wider bands (the fewer bands the better). They still require culling but the yeild rate is much much better.

The absolute worst molds cull-rate-wise for me are the tiny multi-band loverins. They generally require some good percentage tin added to the metal to get some better fill if you want to cut down on your cull rate later.

To get the absolute best consistent fill on a six banger mold, you really have to treat each sprue cone as a single cavity mold, hitting it with a centered stream of lead. Then you go to the next one, actuating the lever arm six times.

Reality is I don't do this, I run the lead down the line trying to hit the hole as fast as I can. This casting "cheater" is directly a cause for the rounded bases I then cull out for later.

But, some culling at the lubriciser is a fair price to pay for all them frosty nice bullets that you get in a half an hour's casting. Numbers do count .... and six is a lot better than 1-2.

Oldfeller
Hey Oldfeller,
The one-hole-at-a-time routine is precisely the way I get my new 311047 to work. The only problem I have with that mould that really is a bummer is that the gas check shanks on three of the cavities are too big to seat .30cal. gas checks on. I had some .32 gas checks that fit so used them instead. They sized all the same thru the sizer. That's why I don't agree with the assumption that all the Lee moulds are "undersized". Oh, that's a different thread...hah hah..Anyway, that's my .03 worth.

[Bret4207]

I only get 8-10 casting sessions a year. May be 3 days in a row, or spread way out. So anything that builds the supply faster is GOOD for me. My 6 banger Lee's cast as well as I am able to work them. IOW- the jerk behind the wheel has to pay attention or there's gonna be problems. I think Kelly put it best, treat each hole as an individual mould. Works for me.

As for production, my 10 cav H+G makes BIG piles of 38 wadcutters, real fast, real well. Just need a darn crane to move the thing.

[JKearns]

Just curious since I'm still learning. whats the Bruce B method of casting?

Many thanks
John

[woody1]

Just curious since I'm still learning. whats the Bruce B method of casting?

Many thanks
John
http://ktsammo.250x.com/castboolits/cst1.html