Are we chosen to be Christians?

[dverna]

God is supposed to know us before we are born. He has chosen some to become Christians. Others have not been chosen by Him. I am struggling with the concept even though it makes sense.

If born into a Muslim family a person will almost certainly become a Muslim. Same for Jews, Hindus etc etc. So it makes sense.

When He has chosen us to be born into a Christian family, He has increased our chances of salvation. Our free will may lead us elsewhere but that will be rare. He has stacked the deck in our favor.

What about the many more He has not chosen. Does God not love them as much or at all? Is He depending on their "free will" to choose Christ but starts them with the deck stacked against them?

I hear stories of children accepting Christ at a very young age and question how much of that is peer pressure. Is the Holy Ghost working in some of them, but not others? It seems ludicrous to celebrate a 5 year old accepting Jesus when we do not trust them to decide what to have for breakfast. Do 5 year old Muslims etc etc accept Christ?...I think not.

How much of our faith is pre-destined and how much is free will? It seems to me most of it is pre-destined, but I see both examples in the Bible.

I was born in a family of atheists and came to Christ late in life. God hit me with a 2x4 a few times. I do not know why He has saved me, but He has. I wonder about those He has not chosen to be saved. Why?

[HWooldridge]

You still have free will - but God already knows which path you will undertake - and he knows your heart. As Matthew 7 states, "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

[P Flados]

In my opinion:

God does not "choose" who gets saved. He wants everyone to exercise their free will and choose to accept his gift of forgiveness.

There are many that are less exposed to his Word, and there are may that have access to the Gospel, but fail to heed the message. This is the mostly the consequences of choices by Christians to not be good images of Him and our failings in spreading the good news.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Jer 1:5
Jn 6:44
Jn 14:6
Acts 2:21





DG

[Hogtamer]

Everyone know John 3:16, but I wish we learned verse 17 first: “For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.” And clearly stated in 16 “WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish…” And Romans 10:13-15

…13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. Finally, it is up to each of us to fulfill the great commission in Matthew 28 18-20 “ Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Not a complete answer but taps down a few of the nails that were sticking up. Regarding the 5 year olds, I have to relate this from my own life. When 5 y/o grandaughter climbed into my lap on a visit with her Bible story book to ask me to read her a story, I thought aha, a teaching moment. So I asked her about the last story she read and she proceeded to expound the gospel as clearly and succinctly as any pastor or deacon extant. After 5 minutes or so she asked me why I was crying and all I could say that the Holy Spirit was in my lap and they were tears of joy! From the mouths of babes is praise perfected! She was baptized the following year. I cannot imagine why God Almighty gave her such an understanding of His word and work to such a young one, but I hang my hat on Isaiah 59, especially the last verse: 21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.”

[Ickisrulz]

The default position of all mankind is lost. Those that hear the Gospel and respond with active faith will be saved. This is the Bible's position and teaching. There aren't any loopholes for those born Muslim or even for those who have never heard the Gospel. No one is saved by being a "good person" (or a being a nominal Christian). It may not seem fair, but those are the facts as presented in scripture.

As far as God choosing who will be saved and who will be lost, Jesus said "Whosoever will..." Count me as an Arminian.

[Good Cheer]

Did our creator know us before we came here? Yep.
Who qualifies for a free pass, a quick trip through the water without having to prove themselves in this present Earth age?
Well, I don't know. But I know Roe Vs. Wade surely punched the passes for a whole lot of them.

And with that thought I'd like to toss another one out there.
They came into this world at their appointed time. Did we?

[NSB]

Don, this is a great post. I’ve wondered the same thing many times. All I can ever tell myself is that God has a reason and it’s clear to him. He may have an answer that he hasn’t shared with us…..yet.

[Ickisrulz]

Did our creator know us before we came here? Yep.
Who qualifies for a free pass, a quick trip through the water without having to prove themselves in this present Earth age?
Well, I don't know. But I know Roe Vs. Wade surely punched the passes for a whole lot of them.

And with that thought I'd like to toss another one out there.
They came into this world at their appointed time. Did we?

Are you suggesting aborted babies automatically go to heaven? If so, why are we opposed to it? What percent of the population is saved, maybe 10%? If the aborted get a free pass maybe we should rethink our position.

[Newboy]

drvna

I feel the same. God did the choosing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[William Yanda]

Why? Mercy.
If left to our own devices, what natural man would seek holiness?

[Good Cheer]

Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Did our creator know us before we came here? Yep.
Who qualifies for a free pass, a quick trip through the water without having to prove themselves in this present Earth age?
Well, I don't know. But I know Roe Vs. Wade surely punched the passes for a whole lot of them.

And with that thought I'd like to toss another one out there.
They came into this world at their appointed time. Did we?


Are you suggesting aborted babies automatically go to heaven? If so, why are we opposed to it? What percent of the population is saved, maybe 10%? If the aborted get a free pass maybe we should rethink our position.

We all pass through the water. Well, except maybe those that headed for Mount Hermon. Aborted babies are going somewhere. Where can they be headed? What would determine their destination? Seeing as they have no other performance in this present Earth age all I can come up with is their prior performance as judged by our creator. Could they have already proved themselves as either accepted or rejected? Why not.
Were they "the best of the best"? Maybe so.
Or did some reject their Father (spiritual creator) and so their pass through the water was to be rejected by their mother (their physical creator)? Beats me Ickisrulz. It's just things to think about.

As far as I've gotten on this is they're passing through the water and Roe Vs Wade surely created a mass transit system to get it done. But this I know for sure, historically our creator sometimes uses evil to accomplish His purposes. It doesn't mean He is evil. It means He turns evil to good and they get to condemn themselves.

[GhostHawk]

I have had conversations with the Lord about Abortion. It was hard because every time we started talking he would get sooooo angry.

Eventually I asked him why.

He replied that he was in the business of collecting Souls and that when a child is aborted both the physical body and the soul attached to it are lost!

There is a very short period after conception before a soul is attached. So for example the "Morning after pill" does no real harm.

It took me and the Lord months to work out exactly why it is the way it is. And why certain things like Abortion are in his eyes so evil.

In the end I changed my views. And it helped when it finally sunk in that all those unwanted pregnancy's were mostly due to women failing to take proper precautions.

I was seriously pro choice for decades. At times I have even helped the local clinic (only one in North Dakota) with cleaning and security.

I have heard the rantings of the religious right to lifer's and found little to agree with.

But when the LORD GOD OF HOSTS thunders down from Heaven "This is WRONG, stop it" I listened.

Remember that what one of the Trinity knows they ALL know. (Except the time of the last trump)

Remember that we are in a battle for control of Earth. There are limits as to how much and how strongly both the Lord and Satan are allowed to influence things.

I can prove NONE of the above. Except that those conversations did happen. And I would find it hard to prove that.

I think that Jesus needs us to be soft, gentle and forgiving when dealing with other people. And able to turn into WARRIORS when confronted with the enemy.
We do not have to attack, just STAND FAST in our faith.

This is a very hard topic for me, and I do not like to present myself as some prophet or person who has inside information.
But I was told I was needed here. And so putting personal feelings aside I have exposed my soul for all to see.

I have not always been a good man. I wasted 40 years being the goat who would not be led. I wanted no shepherd, I chose my own path.
And yet looking back over the years I can see again and again where the Lord sent others to help my in my troubles. So eventually I heard his call and came to believe.

I also believe that each of us before we are sent down to take up this life are given an overview of how hard it will be. And if we do not think we are capable of
fulfilling that life he will choose another. And we will have another chance at a later date. I also believe that memory is sealed away from us. We have to do it on our own.

And this has turned into a strange conversation for which I am truly sorry.

For those of you who took the time to read with an open mind, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

[Good Cheer]

Thank you GhostHawk for letting us know.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

God is supposed to know us before we are born. He has chosen some to become Christians. Others have not been chosen by Him. I am struggling with the concept even though it makes sense.

If born into a Muslim family a person will almost certainly become a Muslim. Same for Jews, Hindus etc etc. So it makes sense.

When He has chosen us to be born into a Christian family, He has increased our chances of salvation. Our free will may lead us elsewhere but that will be rare. He has stacked the deck in our favor.

What about the many more He has not chosen. Does God not love them as much or at all? Is He depending on their "free will" to choose Christ but starts them with the deck stacked against them?

I hear stories of children accepting Christ at a very young age and question how much of that is peer pressure. Is the Holy Ghost working in some of them, but not others? It seems ludicrous to celebrate a 5 year old accepting Jesus when we do not trust them to decide what to have for breakfast. Do 5 year old Muslims etc etc accept Christ?...I think not.

How much of our faith is pre-destined and how much is free will? It seems to me most of it is pre-destined, but I see both examples in the Bible.

I was born in a family of atheists and came to Christ late in life. God hit me with a 2x4 a few times. I do not know why He has saved me, but He has. I wonder about those He has not chosen to be saved. Why?
I can't really answer your questions. I do think he knew us all before we were born in the flesh. This passage might help you some?


Romans 9:6-13

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

[farmbif]

like winning some genetic lottery. if you are born in Tibet odds are your going to be Buddhist

[Ickisrulz]

I have had conversations with the Lord about Abortion. It was hard because every time we started talking he would get sooooo angry.

Eventually I asked him why.

He replied that he was in the business of collecting Souls and that when a child is aborted both the physical body and the soul attached to it are lost!

There is a very short period after conception before a soul is attached. So for example the "Morning after pill" does no real harm.

It took me and the Lord months to work out exactly why it is the way it is. And why certain things like Abortion are in his eyes so evil.

In the end I changed my views. And it helped when it finally sunk in that all those unwanted pregnancy's were mostly due to women failing to take proper precautions.

I was seriously pro choice for decades. At times I have even helped the local clinic (only one in North Dakota) with cleaning and security.

I have heard the rantings of the religious right to lifer's and found little to agree with.

But when the LORD GOD OF HOSTS thunders down from Heaven "This is WRONG, stop it" I listened.

Remember that what one of the Trinity knows they ALL know. (Except the time of the last trump)

Remember that we are in a battle for control of Earth. There are limits as to how much and how strongly both the Lord and Satan are allowed to influence things.

I can prove NONE of the above. Except that those conversations did happen. And I would find it hard to prove that.

I think that Jesus needs us to be soft, gentle and forgiving when dealing with other people. And able to turn into WARRIORS when confronted with the enemy.
We do not have to attack, just STAND FAST in our faith.

This is a very hard topic for me, and I do not like to present myself as some prophet or person who has inside information.
But I was told I was needed here. And so putting personal feelings aside I have exposed my soul for all to see.

I have not always been a good man. I wasted 40 years being the goat who would not be led. I wanted no shepherd, I chose my own path.
And yet looking back over the years I can see again and again where the Lord sent others to help my in my troubles. So eventually I heard his call and came to believe.

I also believe that each of us before we are sent down to take up this life are given an overview of how hard it will be. And if we do not think we are capable of
fulfilling that life he will choose another. And we will have another chance at a later date. I also believe that memory is sealed away from us. We have to do it on our own.

And this has turned into a strange conversation for which I am truly sorry.

For those of you who took the time to read with an open mind, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

How does God speak to you, in an audible voice?

[Ickisrulz]

Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Did our creator know us before we came here? Yep.
Who qualifies for a free pass, a quick trip through the water without having to prove themselves in this present Earth age?
Well, I don't know. But I know Roe Vs. Wade surely punched the passes for a whole lot of them.

And with that thought I'd like to toss another one out there.
They came into this world at their appointed time. Did we?



We all pass through the water. Well, except maybe those that headed for Mount Hermon. Aborted babies are going somewhere. Where can they be headed? What would determine their destination? Seeing as they have no other performance in this present Earth age all I can come up with is their prior performance as judged by our creator. Could they have already proved themselves as either accepted or rejected? Why not.
Were they "the best of the best"? Maybe so.
Or did some reject their Father (spiritual creator) and so their pass through the water was to be rejected by their mother (their physical creator)? Beats me Ickisrulz. It's just things to think about.

As far as I've gotten on this is they're passing through the water and Roe Vs Wade surely created a mass transit system to get it done. But this I know for sure, historically our creator sometimes uses evil to accomplish His purposes. It doesn't mean He is evil. It means He turns evil to good and they get to condemn themselves.

We don't have information on the fate of the aborted because the Bible is essentially silent on the issue.

We consider abortion wrong because it is ending a human life. I don't know that we can take it much further and be dogmatic about our inferences.

[dverna]

The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

There are those, and I am one, who become Christians though a process. They are Christians by choice and not by birth/heritage. BTW, I am not suggesting all people born into Christian homes accept Christ, many choose to reject Him. More n that later.

The Lord enlists disciples to "spread the good news" for a reason. If a person is not born into a Christian home, they cannot know about Christ. They cannot be saved.

What I continue to struggle with is why God has "stacked the deck" against most of humanity. 2000 years after Jesus showed the way, less than one third of the world believes in Christ. This trend continues downward; and global communication has not helped "spread the word". There are fewer Christians than in 1900, as a percentage. God is creating more and more souls that cannot and will not be saved...they are not chosen...they are forsaken.

This has led to me ponder a bigger question. God has given us the tools to spread His Word and we are slipping back. Some professed "Christians" accept the murder of babies. Those that God has chosen are not "winning". Have we reached the tipping point? The Word is out there for all to see and is being rejected by more people. Has God had enough?

What is wrong is now right. What is right is now wrong.

When He sees "chosen people" rejecting Christ in increasing numbers, is the battle lost?

Is it time for Jesus to return?

[Ickisrulz]

The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

I would say their parents chose them to be "Christians", not God. God doesn't pick and choose who will be born to whom and under what circumstances. That falls on the parents.

[Good Cheer]

We don't have information on the fate of the aborted because the Bible is essentially silent on the issue.
We consider abortion wrong because it is ending a human life. I don't know that we can take it much further and be dogmatic about our inferences.

Yep, we know killing babies is bad. And no, I don't think we should rethink our position. We know they come here and pass through the water once. Then they die. And to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. So we know where the aborted babies go. How they qualified for the fate of being aborted is a mystery but we know the Lord is fair.

[Good Cheer]

I would say their parents chose them to be "Christians", not God. God doesn't pick and choose who will be born to whom and under what circumstances. That falls on the parents.

How would we know He doesn't intervene?

[Good Cheer]

The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

There are those, and I am one, who become Christians though a process. They are Christians by choice and not by birth/heritage. BTW, I am not suggesting all people born into Christian homes accept Christ, many choose to reject Him. More n that later.

The Lord enlists disciples to "spread the good news" for a reason. If a person is not born into a Christian home, they cannot know about Christ. They cannot be saved.

What I continue to struggle with is why God has "stacked the deck" against most of humanity. 2000 years after Jesus showed the way, less than one third of the world believes in Christ. This trend continues downward; and global communication has not helped "spread the word". There are fewer Christians than in 1900, as a percentage. God is creating more and more souls that cannot and will not be saved...they are not chosen...they are forsaken.

This has led to me ponder a bigger question. God has given us the tools to spread His Word and we are slipping back. Some professed "Christians" accept the murder of babies. Those that God has chosen are not "winning". Have we reached the tipping point? The Word is out there for all to see and is being rejected by more people. Has God had enough?

What is wrong is now right. What is right is now wrong.

When He sees "chosen people" rejecting Christ in increasing numbers, is the battle lost?

Is it time for Jesus to return?

For some time I've been suspecting the window for His return is from the last part of this decade on through to the end of the 2060's. Those are just my own thoughts based upon my own studies. Doesn't mean others haven't come up with the same idea because after all, when you get into studying scripture there's little chance of coming up with an original thought.


A PS jest fer grins,
Ever read the SF novel "Saturn Run"?
The god Saturn handed down to us in mythology is of course the bad guy. At one point in the book the arrival at Saturn was set for Passover in 2068.
Made me do a "Oh really!":popcorn:

[Ickisrulz]

How would we know He doesn't intervene?

The Bible is pretty clear. Man is free to do as he wishes while on earth. People decide who they are going to marry (and/or have sex with), God doesn't decide this for them. He has given them advice, sometimes they take it other times they do not.

The only parents that God specifically put a certain child with were Mary and Joseph. This was a unique event in all of the Bible.

Just because God can control everything doesn't mean he does. If one reads the Bible, he will see God allows man to chose his own path, make his own decisions, govern himself, etc.

[Good Cheer]

The Bible is pretty clear. Man is free to do as he wishes while on earth. People decide who they are going to marry (and/or have sex with), God doesn't decide this for them. He has given them advice, sometimes they take it other times they do not.

The only parents that God specifically put a certain child with were Mary and Joseph. This was a unique event in all of the Bible.

Just because God can control everything doesn't mean he does. If one reads the Bible, he will see God allows man to chose his own path, make his own decisions, govern himself, etc.

We're talking apples and oranges. What Mom gave Dad for his birthday nine months before I was born did not determine which human body my spirit body took residence in. And as far as our creator's intervention in the goings ons of this world, no, we do not know how much intervention is taking place. We know there's some but we don't know how much.

[HWooldridge]

We can't know the mind of God - how does a person grasp a holy entity who can set the universe in place the way we perceive it to be? Every new telescope sent to space finds more and more galaxies. All the humans on Earth, alive or dead, could not set even one asteroid in orbit...much less a sun and planets. Yet God has chosen to make thousands upon thousands of galaxies, and those are just the ones we can see. If you want to bring it closer to home, look into the depths of the oceans or high in the rain forests - the diversity on earth is not random and it all has a purpose - we are simply not able to understand all of it. We also need to consider that the human mind only recognizes a very small percentage of the information that our senses perceive and it's easy to see we are bumbling around most of the time; it's a wonder we live long enough to reproduce.

We have no way of knowing how aborted children (or even infants who are not yet self-aware but die after birth) will be treated but we can trust that God always works things towards His goodness and mercy.

[Ickisrulz]

We're talking apples and oranges. What Mom gave Dad for his birthday nine months before I was born did not determine which human body my spirit body took residence in. And as far as our creator's intervention in the goings ons of this world, no, we do not know how much intervention is taking place. We know there's some but we don't know how much.

So your belief is that there are human infant spirits in heaven hanging around with God, sometimes "Proving themselves", and God determines which body he will send them to? That sounds more like a Pixar movie plot than biblical ideas.

Human procreation is random and mostly at the will of the parents. God does not select some to be born blind or handicapped in some other way. He doesn't decide who will be tall and who will be short, etc. Similarly, he does not choose who will respond to the Gospel and who will not. These matters are left up to individual people. (And, no, we are not all "created equal.")

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

There are those, and I am one, who become Christians though a process. They are Christians by choice and not by birth/heritage. BTW, I am not suggesting all people born into Christian homes accept Christ, many choose to reject Him. More n that later.

The Lord enlists disciples to "spread the good news" for a reason. If a person is not born into a Christian home, they cannot know about Christ. They cannot be saved.

What I continue to struggle with is why God has "stacked the deck" against most of humanity. 2000 years after Jesus showed the way, less than one third of the world believes in Christ. This trend continues downward; and global communication has not helped "spread the word". There are fewer Christians than in 1900, as a percentage. God is creating more and more souls that cannot and will not be saved...they are not chosen...they are forsaken.

This has led to me ponder a bigger question. God has given us the tools to spread His Word and we are slipping back. Some professed "Christians" accept the murder of babies. Those that God has chosen are not "winning". Have we reached the tipping point? The Word is out there for all to see and is being rejected by more people. Has God had enough?

What is wrong is now right. What is right is now wrong.

When He sees "chosen people" rejecting Christ in increasing numbers, is the battle lost?

Is it time for Jesus to return?
What you wrote here, reminds me of Isaiah 5
Maybe if you do a study of that chapter, it'll help you with your questions.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

>>>SNIP
I dispute this.

In my circle of friends (which includes those devoted to Christ and study his word, and those that go to church but don't study the bible, and those who claim to NOT be a Christian), the trend is more that the children of those devoted to the Lord are more likely to veer away from the faith. It's a trend that is shown throughout a group of books in the Old Testament.
Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles.

My own personal testimony is something similar to this trend.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

dverna,
>or anyone else who wonders about those who find their faith without their parents guidance,
There is a movie called "The Life of Pi." It's a fairly long movie, where portions of it are slow moving...but the way it's written, it's like 3 or 4 short movies put together, so if you start getting bored during a slow moving part, rest assured it'll switch directions (literally) soon enough...and it's worth sitting through the slow parts. The entire movie storyline is quite the wild ride.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454876/

[Good Cheer]

So your belief is that there are human infant spirits in heaven hanging around with God, sometimes "Proving themselves", and God determines which body he will send them to? That sounds more like a Pixar movie plot than biblical ideas.

Human procreation is random and mostly at the will of the parents. God does not select some to be born blind or handicapped in some other way. He doesn't decide who will be tall and who will be short, etc. Similarly, he does not choose who will respond to the Gospel and who will not. These matters are left up to individual people. (And, no, we are not all "created equal.")

Sticking a question mark on the end of an unfounded allegation doesn't make it a question; you don't know what I think yet you keep stating what my beliefs are.
Except for those interventions in history and those recorded in scripture as yet to come, I can't know how much God intervenes. But then I could think well how about Matthew 18:10 if very real intervention on an upfront and personal level was of no concern. Frankly I've had time to think about it over the years and decided He does intervene just like He answers prayers.
Also, I know that our Lord knew us before we were born here because scripture says so.
And I know it is for each to pass through the water once because scripture says so.
Likewise I know we are here to make up our minds on who to follow.
And I know that He is fair.
But I don't know what a Pixar is.

[GhostHawk]

How does God speak to you, in an audible voice?

No, not audible, no sound.

But I hear him in my head. I did not trust it at first as it seemed there was no way to prove it was not me fooling myself. Or the Devil trying to influence me.

As to the first, yes it could be true. I could be fooling myself. But how many real arguements have you gotten into with your self about a difference of opinion?

As to the second, I watched like a hawk. That "entity" for lack of a better word never once asked me to do something I did not agree with. Never asked me to do anything that would cause me or others pain or suffering.

So over time I have come to believe it is

A The Lord God Almighty maker of heaven and earth.

B Or his son our Lord Jesus the Christ.

C or IMO the most likely the Holy Spirit or some combination of the 3.

D in one instance, someone here had asked for prayers for a relative who was in hospital in very bad shape.
I read, lifted prayer, was told "The Lord is with her right now, she is on her way to heaven"
And when I posted that information here, I posted it within a few minutes of her passing.

So I have come to trust and believe what I have told.

That does not blow up my ego, or make me special, or worthy of anything more than anyone else.
But once in a while when I think I can help, or add clarity, or be of aid to people I step out of my comfort zone and post.

Right wrong or otherwise.

[Good Cheer]

Stepping out of that comfort zone can really be tough. But hey, I'm convinced that this is the generation of the fig tree and well, that more and more people are being more directly effected. Many will remain silent but some will step out of the boat.

[Ickisrulz]

Sticking a question mark on the end of an unfounded allegation doesn't make it a question; you don't know what I think yet you keep stating what my beliefs are.
Except for those interventions in history and those recorded in scripture as yet to come, I can't know how much God intervenes. But then I could think well how about Matthew 18:10 if very real intervention on an upfront and personal level was of no concern. Frankly I've had time to think about it over the years and decided He does intervene just like He answers prayers.
Also, I know that our Lord knew us before we were born here because scripture says so.
And I know it is for each to pass through the water once because scripture says so.
Likewise I know we are here to make up our minds on who to follow.
And I know that He is fair.
But I don't know what a Pixar is.

I only know what you have written in this thread. Take a look at your posts and you'll see why I think you believe the way you do.

[Ickisrulz]

No, not audible, no sound.

But I hear him in my head. I did not trust it at first as it seemed there was no way to prove it was not me fooling myself. Or the Devil trying to influence me.

As to the first, yes it could be true. I could be fooling myself. But how many real arguements have you gotten into with your self about a difference of opinion?

As to the second, I watched like a hawk. That "entity" for lack of a better word never once asked me to do something I did not agree with. Never asked me to do anything that would cause me or others pain or suffering.

So over time I have come to believe it is

A The Lord God Almighty maker of heaven and earth.

B Or his son our Lord Jesus the Christ.

C or IMO the most likely the Holy Spirit or some combination of the 3.

D in one instance, someone here had asked for prayers for a relative who was in hospital in very bad shape.
I read, lifted prayer, was told "The Lord is with her right now, she is on her way to heaven"
And when I posted that information here, I posted it within a few minutes of her passing.

So I have come to trust and believe what I have told.

That does not blow up my ego, or make me special, or worthy of anything more than anyone else.
But once in a while when I think I can help, or add clarity, or be of aid to people I step out of my comfort zone and post.

Right wrong or otherwise.

I thought as much. I have known plenty of people in my life that have made claims of "hearing" from God. When pressed what that means, it's usually a feeling or internal dialog.

Why do I care? Because inexperienced Christians get the idea that God actually talks to people and they feel left out, disappointed and think they are doing something wrong.

God speaks to us through the Bible when it comes to special revelation. God didn't even sit around having discussions with Jesus. Jesus learned about God and his mission from the scriptures.

[GhostHawk]

Ickisrulz Sir it is my opinion that "Anyone" can learn to hear him.

IMO you do need

A a pure heart.

B A humble spirit

C (this seems to be the part people have trouble with) You have to "Calm" your mind. So its like a northern Minnesota lake at 5am. Not a wrinkle on it, like a sheet of glass.

If you can do that, and you ask him a question you might get an answer.

Now my wife does not "hear" him, but she receives flashes of images, and "Knowings" Knowledge that suddenly appears in our minds, that we have no answer for where it came from, but illustrates the solution to our current problem perfectly.

[Ickisrulz]

Ickisrulz Sir it is my opinion that "Anyone" can learn to hear him.

IMO you do need

A a pure heart.

B A humble spirit

C (this seems to be the part people have trouble with) You have to "Calm" your mind. So its like a northern Minnesota lake at 5am. Not a wrinkle on it, like a sheet of glass.

If you can do that, and you ask him a question you might get an answer.

Now my wife does not "hear" him, but she receives flashes of images, and "Knowings" Knowledge that suddenly appears in our minds, that we have no answer for where it came from, but illustrates the solution to our current problem perfectly.

I have heard this formula before from more than one person, even people I respected and didn't suspect of being deceitful. However it sounds an awful lot like actively thinking rather than hearing directly from God. I suppose you could say that thinking about scripture you have learned and comparing it to life experiences/observations and coming up with conclusions could be a form of hearing from God. But that is much different than receiving a direct word from him.

Let's think about how God spoke to people directly in the Bible (beyond Eden):

1. To legitimate prophets who delivered the messages to others
2. Visions
3. Dreams
4. Angelic visions
5. Prophetic utterances in Christian assemblies
6. Utterances in Tongues with an interpretation in Christian assemblies

You will notice there is no mention of sitting on a calm lake early in the morning and hearing from God in your head.

Jesus does tell us the Holy Spirit will remind us of his words. Although, this is not hearing directly from God.

I'll also point out that God is generally very quiet. There are periods of 100+ years in the Bible where God did not speak directly to anyone. I have heard people claiming that God directs the most mundane things in their lives that it makes him seem like a control freak and this is just not supported in Scripture.

Christians should be very careful in what they try to pass off as a word from God.

Undoubtedly God will tell you not to listen to me.

[Alabama358]

He replied that he was in the business of collecting Souls and that when a child is aborted both the physical body and the soul attached to it are lost!



I think...
A child in the womb, infant/toddler, adolescent and adult all have a body/flesh, a spirit and a soul (see Hebrews 4:12)

Body/flesh is just that, our physical body carnal selves
The Soul might be described as our personality (freewill, love, hate, good, bad etc.)
The Spirit is something sacred and GOD given (might be what was made in the image of God) and what is sealed until the day of redemption after being saved. Much harder to accurately describe

What "works" does a person (womb thru adulthood) have to do to get their names written in the Lambs book? None. (See Ephesians 2:8)
I don't find any prescription or references in scripture of actions to have your name written in.
What I do see... actions or non belief (rejection of Christ) that can get you blotted out.

I think all names are written in the Book of Life, everyone has the same chance at life ever lasting. It is up to you through your actions whether or not you are blotted out

In the end there is only two destinations Reward vs Punishment
1. Heaven eternal Glory
2. Eternal suffering and gnashing of teeth

Being murdered in the womb or a child's tragic death does not get them blotted out.
Babies in the womb and young children are not lost to eternal damnation

[dverna]

Thessalonians 1:4
English Standard Version
4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you

This appears to be a straightforward declaration penned by the apostle Paul. God has chosen us.

This "choosing" can result because we are born into a Christian family/culture, through missionary work, by hitting some of us with a 2x4, or bringing us under the influence of other Christians as we mature.

God may put some or all of these methods before a person He has chosen, and some will still choose not to accept Jesus. I do not believe God knows how we will choose. Otherwise, why waste the effort on those who will reject Jesus anyway.

But God has also chosen not to offer salvation to millions of people. He does not choose everyone.

BTW, I do not believe God knows everything about the future. There is too much proof that countering that belief. The fact that man has choices and those choices can influence the future leaves "wiggle room" for what may happen and when. A good example is the second coming of Christ. God knows it will happen because it must, but He does not control every aspect of what will trigger it and when those events will occur. It is like giving your child that new pocket knife. You know he/she will cut themselves but you do not know what will cause the accident (whitling a stick, cutting a rope, or just closing the knife) or when it will happen.

One last item that noodles at me. The Jews are the "chosen people" God selected in the OT to spread His word. But they did not accept Christ as their Saviour. And in the NT the only way to God and eternal life is through Jesus.

[Ickisrulz]

One last item that noodles at me. The Jews are the "chosen people" God selected in the OT to spread His word. But they did not accept Christ as their Saviour. And in the NT the only way to God and eternal life is through Jesus.

This shouldn't be surprising. The Jews as a nation rejected God routinely throughout her long history (i.e., stoned the prophets and killed those sent to her). About the only thing she did for the world was preserve the Scripture, which was only part of her mission. Therefore, God has rejected the Jews and will continue to do so until they recognize Jesus as the Christ (per Jesus' words).

What fascinates me is many Christians' obsession with modern Israel.

[dverna]

This shouldn't be surprising. The Jews as a nation rejected God routinely throughout her long history (i.e., stoned the prophets and killed those sent to her). About the only thing she did for the world was preserve the Scripture, which was only part of her mission. Therefore, God has rejected the Jews and will continue to do so until they recognize Jesus as the Christ (per Jesus' words).

What fascinates me is many Christians' obsession with modern Israel.

Just adds “fuel” to my thinking that God does not know every event that will happen and that man’s choices influence what God does to effect His larger plan. Why select the Jews as the chosen people if He knew they would fail Him...maybe they were the best of the other bad choices?

[Ickisrulz]

Just adds “fuel” to my thinking that God does not know every event that will happen and that man’s choices influence what God does to effect His larger plan. Why select the Jews as the chosen people if He knew they would fail Him...maybe they were the best of the other bad choices?

Before the Law, man followed his own desires and conscience. Man's thinking was that if God just left us alone, we'd do OK. God knew that mankind would fail, but allowed it to show how low we could go (see Tower of Babel, Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah). As a result we saw we needed direction. With some guidance we could please God, right? Then came the Law.

The Law showed us that we are unable to please God because of our own deficiencies even though we know God's requirements. God knew this, but mankind needed to be shown. Once we understand that, we can accept the need for a savior. Remember that Paul talked about the Law leading us to Christ (in the KJV and others the Law is called a "schoolmaster").

God's varied methods with man were not because he did not understand man or because of his limited knowledge. It was to show us what we really need to please God.

[dannyd]

This shouldn't be surprising. The Jews as a nation rejected God routinely throughout her long history (i.e., stoned the prophets and killed those sent to her). About the only thing she did for the world was preserve the Scripture, which was only part of her mission. Therefore, God has rejected the Jews and will continue to do so until they recognize Jesus as the Christ (per Jesus' words).

What fascinates me is many Christians' obsession with modern Israel.

Because Israel are God's People and will always be; we are not his People.

Everything Jesus said was to His People the Jews, he was not talking to the Gentiles.

The Saved People of this Age are members of the Church the Bride of Christ. Our Part of the KJB is Romans to Philemon.

The Book of Matthew is To the Jews.

The Jews did everything you said BUT he still Loves Them. Hosea 2 OT KJB.

God is still going to Save his People the Jews.

[Ickisrulz]

Because Israel are God's People and will always be; we are not his People.

Everything Jesus said was to His People the Jews, he was not talking to the Gentiles.

The Saved People of this Age are members of the Church the Bride of Christ. Our Part of the KJB is Romans to Philemon.

The Book of Matthew is To the Jews.

The Jews did everything you said BUT he still Loves Them. Hosea 2 OT KJB.

God is still going to Save his People the Jews.

Most books of the Bible are written to the Jews. So what? The Jews were rejected when they rejected Jesus. This comes from Jesus himself. They will remain in this state until (or if) they accept Jesus as the Christ.

The Church (made up of Jewish and Gentile believers) is God's people now. Israel as a whole could come to Jesus someday, but it will be as a part of the Church. There is no other way. The Old Covenant is gone. Temple worship with all its rituals is gone as is the Law. The only way to be saved is through Jesus.

The selection of Israel as God's people was not at the exclusion of all the other people on earth. Israel was to share God's message with the nations and show the benefits of godly living. Abraham and his descendants were supposed to be a "blessing" to all people by doing these things. They didn't do so well and were replaced by those who believed the Gospel message. These people are indeed God's people and they have done a pretty good job sharing the Gospel and demonstrating God's love to the world.

Yes, Israel exists today in an area once occupied by their ancestors. God didn't give them back this land through his intervention because they responded to the Gospel or even adhered to the ancient agreements God made with Abraham. The land was provided to them by the United Nations after WW2. God had nothing to do with it. Israel today is nominally Jewish and doesn't seem to care much about God. So I have no idea why Christians are so infatuated with her other than an ignorance her standing with God.

[Good Cheer]

As both interventions and answered prayers are happening in the lives of Christians perhaps a thread on that topic would be nice. If we are now in the generation of the fig tree then intervention is on the increase and attention certainly should be given to what is going on.

[GhostHawk]

"Undoubtedly God will tell you not to listen to me."

Actually it was more like "You got yourself into this by answering him, so its your choice how you want to get out of this"

So I'll say it this way. You have your belief, I have mine. I'm not going to change your mind, your not going to change mine. So lets just leave it there and hope to meet at our Lords feet someday.

I did find it interesting that I was not the first you had heard of that use a similar technique if you will.
I happen to believe that he has many ways of touching us, and he uses what works best for each individual.

[dannyd]

Most books of the Bible are written to the Jews. So what? The Jews were rejected when they rejected Jesus. This comes from Jesus himself. They will remain in this state until (or if) they accept Jesus as the Christ.

The Church (made up of Jewish and Gentile believers) is God's people now. Israel as a whole could come to Jesus someday, but it will be as a part of the Church. There is no other way. The Old Covenant is gone. Temple worship with all its rituals is gone as is the Law. The only way to be saved is through Jesus.

The selection of Israel as God's people was not at the exclusion of all the other people on earth. Israel was to share God's message with the nations and show the benefits of godly living. Abraham and his descendants were supposed to be a "blessing" to all people by doing these things. They didn't do so well and were replaced by those who believed the Gospel message. These people are indeed God's people and they have done a pretty good job sharing the Gospel and demonstrating God's love to the world.

Yes, Israel exists today in an area once occupied by their ancestors. God didn't give them back this land through his intervention because they responded to the Gospel or even adhered to the ancient agreements God made with Abraham. The land was provided to them by the United Nations after WW2. God had nothing to do with it. Israel today is nominally Jewish and doesn't seem to care much about God. So I have no idea why Christians are so infatuated with her other than an ignorance her standing with God.


Israel's Standing is No matter what the Jews do or Have done They are Still Gods People. That's the Promise God made to Them. God is coming back for them to give them Their Land.

Israel's= State, Their relationship with God will always Fluctuate Until Christ's Physical Return.

God's only Promise to a Nation in the 1189 Chapters of Bible is to Israel.

[dverna]

Ickisrulz, if we are talking about the Laws in the OT, how can anyone maintain hundreds of laws to achieve holiness? God set the Jews up for failure...failure was predestined. Man could not even obey 10 Commandments, and then man was expected to obey somewhere close to 600 laws.

I believe there is about a 400 year gap between the OT and NT. Likely only a second for a God not bound by time. But God knows man is bound by time. Yet, God wanted/needed four centuries to "make a course correction" that would save mankind.

In my mind, God wanted two things before the "reset". First, to give enough time for the Jews to understand saving mankind with adherence to the Laws in the OT would not work. Second, to prepare the world for the "Final Answer"...if you will...a pregnant pause. The coming of Jesus. TA DA!!!!

I do not know if God has abandoned the Jews. It may seem that way if the only way to salvation is through Jesus. I am not learned enough to know.

What I know, is God has given man an "easy" way to salvation, and it took millennia to get there. It also seems God does not select everyone to be chosen.

I try to understand what man cannot understand. I must make my Father laugh as I flail about.

[Alabama358]

Because Israel are God's People and will always be; we are not his People.
See Below
Everything Jesus said was to His People the Jews, he was not talking to the Gentiles.
Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The Saved People of this Age are members of the Church the Bride of Christ. Our Part of the KJB is Romans to Philemon.
False Doctrine
The Book of Matthew is To the Jews.
False Doctrine
The Jews did everything you said BUT he still Loves Them. Hosea 2 OT KJB.

God is still going to Save his People the Jews.
Currently they teach that Jesus was a Fake and still resides in Hell...if you think they get Salvation then you need a strong cup of coffee. Those Jews/Hebrews that have or will except Christ will of course be saved just like everyone else.

For PITY'S SAKE....[smilie=b:
STOP with the Doctrines of men
There is NO difference between the JEW and the GENTILE!

Answer these 6 questions -

1. Is Paul not part of the Bride of Christ???
2. Are the other Apostles not part of the body of Christ???
3. John the Baptist... not part of the body of Christ???
4. ALL the multitudes of Hebrews that were baptized in the name of Christ?
5. What about mixed race Gentile+Hebrew, do you have to be 51% Gentile to be eligible to be part of the Bride of Christ?

6. Are you of Abraham's seed or The Bride of Christ or both?

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:12 KJV
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly*; neither is that circumcision, which is outward* in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly*; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 KJV
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

For the sake of Space I will stop here with the quotes but there are many more.

If you can read these VERY CLEAR scriptures and still say there is a different program for the JEWS then for the Gentile, Well...Good Luck

Also please understand that pushing the idea that the Book of Matthew was only for the "Jews" is in fact pushing a False doctrine that may cause folks to stumble. Not a good thing.

[dannyd]

Look at just the between Israel and United State's.

In May of 1948 Israel became a named Nation again, but the United States would not help them when they were attacked by all the other countries in the Region. Basically setting Israel up for failure and giving the land back to the Arabs.

So what happened to the United State's in a little over two years our Army once the Second largest in the World is close to getting kicked off the Korean peninsula not one but twice in a year.

Everytime we mess with Israel and Their land we get Run Over later. Happened to LBJ because of 1967 war happened to Nixon because of 1973 Happened to Carter because of those stupid peace treaties plus not to mention all the Natural disasters.

Check me out with history starting with FDR sending the Saint Louis back Europe with all the Jews heading for the gas chamber.

[dannyd]

For PITY'S SAKE....[smilie=b:
STOP with the Doctrines of men
There is NO difference between the JEW and the GENTILE!

Answer these 6 questions -

1. Is Paul not part of the Bride of Christ???
2. Are the other Apostles not part of the body of Christ???
3. John the Baptist... not part of the body of Christ???
4. ALL the multitudes of Hebrews that were baptized in the name of Christ?
5. What about mixed race Gentile+Hebrew, do you have to be 51% Gentile to be eligible to be part of the Bride of Christ?

6. Are you of Abraham's seed or The Bride of Christ or both?

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:12 KJV
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly*; neither is that circumcision, which is outward* in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly*; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 KJV
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

For the sake of Space I will stop here with the quotes but there are many more.

If you can read these VERY CLEAR scriptures and still say there is a different program for the JEWS then for the Gentile, Well...Good Luck

Also please understand that pushing the idea that the Book of Matthew was only for the "Jews" is in fact pushing a False doctrine that may cause folks to stumble. Not a good thing.

Okay what happened to the people that are left after the Rapture and what do you do with the rest of the book of Revelation after Chapter 4 when the church is call out?

[Alabama358]

Okay what happened to the people that are left after the Rapture and what do you do with the rest of the book of Revelation after Chapter 4 when the church is call out?

You didn't answer the 6 questions...?

As far your question, Chapter and verse please and if you can add a little context and a bit more detail to your question I will give it a shot.

[Ickisrulz]

Ickisrulz, if we are talking about the Laws in the OT, how can anyone maintain hundreds of laws to achieve holiness? God set the Jews up for failure...failure was predestined. Man could not even obey 10 Commandments, and then man was expected to obey somewhere close to 600 laws.

I believe there is about a 400 year gap between the OT and NT. Likely only a second for a God not bound by time. But God knows man is bound by time. Yet, God wanted/needed four centuries to "make a course correction" that would save mankind.

In my mind, God wanted two things before the "reset". First, to give enough time for the Jews to understand saving mankind with adherence to the Laws in the OT would not work. Second, to prepare the world for the "Final Answer"...if you will...a pregnant pause. The coming of Jesus. TA DA!!!!

I do not know if God has abandoned the Jews. It may seem that way if the only way to salvation is through Jesus. I am not learned enough to know.

What I know, is God has given man an "easy" way to salvation, and it took millennia to get there. It also seems God does not select everyone to be chosen.

I try to understand what man cannot understand. I must make my Father laugh as I flail about.

Jesus summed up the Law for us: Love God and put him first in your life and treat other humans as you want to be treated. No one except Jesus was able to meet this requirement. But on the face of it, it sounds pretty easy. Maybe that is why it took so long for man to learn he needed a savior not a list of rules or even a conscience.

Some are still learning. If you notice, people always want to go back to following some list of rules to make them right with God (e.g., catholic sacraments) or a ledger of good works.

[Alabama358]

Jesus summed up the Law for us: Love God and put him first in your life and treat other humans as you want to be treated. No one except Jesus was able to meet this requirement. But on the face of it, it sounds pretty easy. Maybe that is why it took so long for man to learn he needed a savior not a list of rules or even a conscience.

Some are still learning. If you notice, people always want to go back to following some list of rules to make them right with God (e.g., catholic sacraments) or a ledger of good works.

I think you nailed it there... We have been liberated from the Law

Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer* under a schoolmaster.

[hawkeye1]

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Scripture clearly states predestination, justification as well as sanctification.

The only way a man can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace, but grace isn’t God’s reward for living a good life-it’s God’s response to saving faith. And faith is a gift from God to only those whom he called and elected. Always the sheep, never the goats.

Bless y’all

[Good Cheer]

At breakfast we touched upon this in discussion, and were thinking about the strong delusion that God is sending upon some. We were trying to remember the reason God would do this and had to go review 2nd Thessalonians.

[Alabama358]

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Scripture clearly states predestination, justification as well as sanctification.

The only way a man can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace, but grace isn’t God’s reward for living a good life-it’s God’s response to saving faith. And faith is a gift from God to only those whom he called and elected. Always the sheep, never the goats.

Bless y’all

I think that a lot of folks get confused with the words predestinate and foreknow.
Some have been fooled into thinking God picks winners and losers from the beginning... thanks to False doctrines of men like John Calvin

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Keyword "whosoever" not those that have been chosen

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

key word "all men"

We could fill up the page with scripture that rebukes the Calvinism garbage that God has already picked the Winners and Losers
Instead lets break it down differently.

First we need to establish that God knows the beginning from the end and everything in between. He knows every detail of your life from womb to tomb. The hairs on your head are numbered. This is what is meant by for foreknown

Imagine if you will that you are the wealthiest man on earth. All other empires pale in comparison to yours
You have 5 Children ages 1 through 5
You have only 48 hours to live before you go to be with the Lord
You need to put your affairs in order and need to pick which child will take over as head of you empire when they come of age
By some miracle you have a chance to look at your children's futures...you may not intercede or effect their lives you may only observe.
4 of the 5 children stumble and because of the lavish wealthy lifestyle fall into a foolish wicked life of drugs, alcohol abuse and depravity.
The Middle Child #3 grows up wise beyond his years, he loves the Lord, he ends up being a generous fair man by all moral standards.

So as you are making your last Will and Testament, which child are you going to appoint as head of your empire?
Of course Child #3... not because you love him more or you have developed him for the position, after all he is only 3years old... but because you have seen (foreknown) the decisions of the 5 children according to their free will
All 5 had the same opportunity but you predestinate #3 based on your foreknowledge of what path he takes as he grows up.


You are absolutely correct that salvation is a gift from God and it is not something that is earned. But this Gift is available to ALL... And the LORD wants ALL to except it.
Will all except? No
Does GOD know who will not except? Yes of course, he knows all from the womb to tomb.
He did not pick them to fail... Rebellion and denial is the path that their free will has taken them and they will be rewarded accordingly.

In the end there will be the Sheep and the Goats...BUT until the end everyone has the same opportunity to be a sheep.

[dverna]

Alabama, how would a Native American born in 500 AD hear the Word and be saved?

Fast forward to the Aztecs. They were being slaughtered for their gold by the same race that would preach salvation. I bet that was harder than selling popsicles to Eskimos.

[Alabama358]

Alabama, how would a Native American born in 500 AD hear the Word and be saved?

Fast forward to the Aztecs. They were being slaughtered for their gold by the same race that would preach salvation. I bet that was harder than selling popsicles to Eskimos.


Good question... I have asked myself that many times
Romans 1:19-20
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I think this is sort of an answer, I am sure there is a better one though.

As far as the church slaughtering them for their Gold... I think that is still going on today

[dverna]

Good question... I have asked myself that many times
Romans 1:19-20
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I think this is sort of an answer, I am sure there is a better one though.

As far as the church slaughtering them for their Gold... I think that is still going on today

I fall back on God does not choose everyone. Those other cultures had gods to explain creation and things they could not understand....but it was not God. Therefore, they could not accept Jesus for salvation and that is the only way to the Father.

It may seem unfair for a person not exposed to the Word to be unable to achieve salvation, but it seems that is how it is. Way beyond me to understand. Maybe there are exceptions for those in that predicament...maybe not. The Bible does not answer every question specifically.

John 3:16 may be an absolute truth/declaration for those exposed to the Bible, but not a universal truth/declaration.

[Good Cheer]

God is fair in His Judgements.
Therefore He has a basis for His judgements.
Including for those who are slaughtered in the wombs of their mothers without their performance in this Adamic creation being in evidence.
God is going to deal with them fairly on the basis of evidence He has.
Do we need to know more to settle the question?
Are those slaughtered in the wombs of their mothers going to be judged on the basis of their actions yet to come?
Do you understand from scripture that there was a world predating the Adamic creation?
Do you understand from scripture that there will be a creation after the Adamic creation?
I'm happy to say that none of those questions make me uncomfortable any more.

[barnabus]

God is supposed to know us before we are born. He has chosen some to become Christians. Others have not been chosen by Him. I am struggling with the concept even though it makes sense.

If born into a Muslim family a person will almost certainly become a Muslim. Same for Jews, Hindus etc etc. So it makes sense.

When He has chosen us to be born into a Christian family, He has increased our chances of salvation. Our free will may lead us elsewhere but that will be rare. He has stacked the deck in our favor.

What about the many more He has not chosen. Does God not love them as much or at all? Is He depending on their "free will" to choose Christ but starts them with the deck stacked against them?

I hear stories of children accepting Christ at a very young age and question how much of that is peer pressure. Is the Holy Ghost working in some of them, but not others? It seems ludicrous to celebrate a 5 year old accepting Jesus when we do not trust them to decide what to have for breakfast. Do 5 year old Muslims etc etc accept Christ?...I think not.

How much of our faith is pre-destined and how much is free will? It seems to me most of it is pre-destined, but I see both examples in the Bible.

I was born in a family of atheists and came to Christ late in life. God hit me with a 2x4 a few times. I do not know why He has saved me, but He has. I wonder about those He has not chosen to be saved. Why?

God does not pick some to be saved and some to be lost. it is his desire that all be saved but all will not because of their personal choice. Predestination simply means pre determined. before the foundations of the world the trinity knew that man would sin and fall and that the plan of redemption would be Christ. God knows who will seek and accept him but in no way shuts anyone off from seeking and finding Him. All have free choice when it comes to this decision and therefor the responsibility.

If you read in Ephesian's (which is where you are speaking of) the entire first chapter speaks of what will happen or become of those that accept Christ, example they shall be adopted and become children of God. Read it carefully.,they will be blessed,have an inheritance in heaven ect. but it based on a personak choice to accept Christ.

Predestination is like a flight from Charlotte NC to Florida. This flight goes every day, It is a pre determined flight but you have to buy a ticket to get on the plane to get to the destination. A person may be born into any family that follows a specific religion but that in no way negates a person being responsible to seek the truth for themselves. If they do that ...they will find the one true God just as Jesus said.if you seek me...you will find me