on the struggle bus with 44spl in a 44 mag henry

[Shadow9mm]

so I have a Henry steel side gate 20in barrel in 44mag/spl, 1:20 twist. I have been on the struggle bus. Been working loads up for a couple months now testing powders and I just cant seem to get anywhere, and I found the straw that broke the camels back today.

The goal was a subsonic hunting load for my 13yr old, and probably me, for deer here in Indiana, where a long shot is 100yds

I started out using hornady XTP Bullets, but quickly found they were too expensive. and grouping around 4moa.

My friend has a NOE mold for 44spl bullets, 280g (284 with gas checks) wide flat nose, powder coated and sized to .430. they feed great in my rifle and he was having good luck with them. I tested several powders and they only one that worked well was powder pistol. Got right up to 1050fps and had good consistency, sd of 7.76, and and an ES of 21 for 6rnds.

Went to put things on paper, and bullets were going in yawing at 25yds, and were tumbling beyond that badly.

I had worked up some loads with a 200g lee mold plain base round flats and power pistol at Hornady max of 8.6g, and they were yielding about 1300fps. They were shooting well at 25yds, around 2moa, but today, at 50yds, they were going in sideways and all over the target.

tested some full power 44 mags with some 240g lee gas checked SWC, and they all punched nice clean holes, but my son did not like the extra recoil and much louder boom.

My friend loads both the matts bullets 280g wide flat nose gas checked, as well as the same NOE cast bullet in his henry. he alternates between 2 loads, 7.5g unique, which is very close to the same burn rate as my power pistol and similar quantity. And 16.5g of H110, however both loads are up around 1300fps in velocity if I remember right, but no idea where he got the data from. However his loads shot straight, and punched clean holes with both rifles. However he has had brass split in half with both loads in his rifle, although none have split in his blackhawk. he thinks its either the chamber in his henry, or that he did not size his brass before loading. but that does not add up to me.

I'm just not sure what I am doing wrong. My friend seems to think there is something off with the pressure wave from Power Pistol, or its burning up too fast in the barrel and making the bullets unstable.

I am wondering if my bullets are under sized, since I am sizing to .430, and his loads are much higher pressure causing to be squished into the grooves.

I have not slugged the barrel. per Henry, the bore diameter is cut to .423, and the groove diameter is cut to .430. I have some pure lead on order to slug the barrel to hopefully see exactly what it is.

any through or suggestions? things I may have missed? I feel like I am in the weeds. Been reloading for over 15 years now, and I have never had this much trouble.

[RickinTN]

Your bore is probably too large for .430" bullets. Most rifles do much better with bullets measuring .432".
Good Luck to you!
Rick

[HWooldridge]

Since you already have some in hand, you might try speeding up the 200 gr pills to see if they stop keyholing.

Maybe try Reloder 7 or 4227 - increase the velocity a bit. If the problem is solved, let your son try shooting them.

[Shadow9mm]

Since you already have some in hand, you might try speeding up the 200 gr pills to see if they stop keyholing.

Maybe try Reloder 7 or 4227 - increase the velocity a bit. If the problem is solved, let your son try shooting them.

I was thinking that too. My concern is, while they are powder coated, they are also plain base and already going 1322 fps and I am not sure how much harder I can push them before they start having leading issues. I am currently at 8.5g of power pistol, max for 44 spl, but it is a 44 mag chambered rifle so I could push the pressure up. I did test a200g barnes solid copper up to magnum pressure in the 44spl case at 12.0g of power pistol based on quick load and GRT data, so I do have some room to push, I just don't know how far I can push them. The barnes topped out at 1565fps, with 12.0g of power pistol, however they are solid copper and come in at .429, so I doubt they sealed well, and they have a long bearing surface. So I would bet the lead bullets would be going a LOT faster seeing as they are at 1322 with just 8.5g.

I considered 2 other things for the 200s. they drop at about .431, I considered sizing and then powder coating to see how much it bumped the size up. or just leaving them as cast and coating.

I am just struggling to understand how being under sized by .001 or .002 could cause bullets to go in sideways at 25 to 50yds when they should be plenty stable with the 1:20 twist. will being that little under sized mage that much of a difference? even at 44spl pressures shouldn't the pressure squish the bullet into the grooves enough to seal?

[Winger Ed.]

Are you actually running these through a chronograph, or going by the text for the powder charge?

If you're just going by the text in the book, and your boolits are too small-
You may be getting some gas cutting and 'blow by'.
If so, they won't be nearly as fast as they should for the charge.
That may give the the wobbles rather than be stabilized like a perfectly thrown football.

[Shadow9mm]

Are you actually running these through a chronograph, or going by the text for the powder charge?

If you're just going by the text in the book, and your boolits are too small-
You may be getting some gas cutting and 'blow by'.
If so, they won't be nearly as fast as they should for the charge.
That may give the the wobbles rather than be stabilized like a perfectly thrown football.

I chronograph my loads. I have found velocities from manuals, and even quick load and gordons reloading tool to almost never be right.

I considered the gas cutting, though it was more of an issue with revolvers. but the 284s were gas checked and they were not even stable at 25yds.

I have some pure lead on order so I can slug my barrel, however I contacted Henry and they said they cut their grooves to .430

also, even though 44spl is fairly low pressure, should it not put enough g force on the bullet to flatten it into the grooves while accelerating?

[Winger Ed.]

Yeah, I think the term is obturation.
The softer the boolit, the less pressure it will take for that 'squish' effect to happen.
Sounds like you're down to slugging the barrel to see what you have to work with and going from there.

[Larry Gibson]

The 240 gr GC'd bullets shot fine. Were they PC'd or cast by you? Your PC'd ones don't shoot well and are tumbling. Apparently, the PC isn't doing its job, i.e., holding the rifling. However, I have shot many, many 44 SPL rounds with 240 to 255 gr cast SWCs of COWWs through numerous lever action carbines. They were conventionally and sized at .430. They all shot quite well, about as good as the carbines would do.

Never used Power Pistol powder so can't comment on it but I do not think it is the powder. Might try some Unique if you have any; start at 6 gr and work up to 100 fps with the 280 gr bullets or Bullseye with 240 - 250 gr bullets. One thing you might try to see it the PC is the problem is to tumble lube your GC'd PC'd bullets in LLA and let dry thoroughly before loading.

[Shadow9mm]

The 240 gr GC'd bullets shot fine. Were they PC'd or cast by you? Your PC'd ones don't shoot well and are tumbling. Apparently, the PC isn't doing its job, i.e., holding the rifling. However, I have shot many, many 44 SPL rounds with 240 to 255 gr cast SWCs of COWWs through numerous lever action carbines. They were conventionally and sized at .430. They all shot quite well, about as good as the carbines would do.

Never used Power Pistol powder so can't comment on it but I do not think it is the powder. Might try some Unique if you have any; start at 6 gr and work up to 100 fps with the 280 gr bullets or Bullseye with 240 - 250 gr bullets. One thing you might try to see it the PC is the problem is to tumble lube your GC'd PC'd bullets in LLA and let dry thoroughly before loading.

Yes, all bullets PC's and cast by me, in the same batch actually, including the SWCs

side note, the 240s that shot fine were in 44 mag cases as full 44 mag pressure, near max charge of H110

I cad considered using LLA, but was not sure how it would stick to the PC. I have also pan lubed in the past, and could use some of that to fill the lube grooves on the PC bullets.

I got GRT back up and running. My friends loads are estimated to be in the 17k to 20k PSI range. my loads were in the 13k to 15k range. I ran some numbers to get my loads up into the 20k PSI range. will test a few on paper next outing and see if that fixes the problem and run them over the chrono.

Really curious to slug this barrel and see what it is. waiting on my pure lead to come in.

[Shadow9mm]

OK! Barrel is slugged. cast 2 bullets with pure lead fishing line sinkers. They came out a touch small, .427. gave them a couple gentle love taps with a hammer until they got up to .436. Used an old wood arrow shaft and pounded it down the barrel. I don't have a micrometer, so I used my calipers. measured probably 10 times to make sure i got a good reading. nothing larger than .4300. so Henry was dead on with their groove size!

Gonna order some new bullet sizers wednesday, probably a .431 and .432 just for good measure since I will have to order directly from lee.

will size some and see if they start acting right. if not, I will bump up pressures and see what I get.

[Shadow9mm]

Got the tna range today. the struggle bus continues. Shot my duplications of my friends loads, unstable bullets, shot my 3 loads with 3 different bulelts, all loaded to 20k PSI, unstable bullets.

I bought a box of underwood 44mag, with 240XTP. I also plan to load up some 44spl with 240g hornady XTP's. At this point the only thing I can think to do is take my bullets out as a variable.

[725]

Agree w/ RickinTN. SAMMI spec's the rifle .44 mag different from the pistol.44 mag. The larger barrel, rifle version, would benefit from a fatter bullet.

[Shadow9mm]

Agree w/ RickinTN. SAMMI spec's the rifle .44 mag different from the pistol.44 mag. The larger barrel, rifle version, would benefit from a fatter bullet.

my next test will be with some factory and hand loads 44 mags with 240g Hornady XTP Bullets. I wanted to take the bullets out as a variable and see how the gun shoots. shooting unstable bullets that are having trouble staying on a 24in square backer at 50yds makes me more than a bit nervous.

I have received my .432 sizer. I need to cast some bullets, coat and size so i can do some testing as everything I have right now is sized to .430. Hopefully next week some time.

With that said my barrel slugged at .4312, with 20k psi with a reasonably fast powder, i would expect the .430 bullet to obturate and fill the rifling at those pressures.

[Forrest r]

Have you tried using 44mag brass and making cowboy action (+/-) 18,000psi with the same bullets? Perhaps your rifle simply doesn't like 44spl brass/bullet having so much freebore.

[ohen cepel]

Another vote to load some "light" 44mag ammo to rule out the short case being the issue. Plus, I like doing that to make cleaning a bit better as I don't get the ring from the shorter case.

[DougGuy]

2 issues.. First and foremost, regardless of what the groove diameter is in the barrel, you will have better results sizing to fit the throat. Undersize boolits in the throat greatly aid the process of gas cutting because there is nothing to seal against this. Once that starts, there remains only speculation at best, as to what diameter boolit is actually reaching the bore.

The other issue is a no brainer really, using spl brass in that magnum chamber leaves a considerable amount of unsupported freebore. Again, misalignment, gas cutting, boolits turning off axis before they even reach the 41m freebore in the throat.

The answers to your problems are right there in your text. It shoots fine with 41m brass and loads. To be honest you seem to be creating more headache by steadfastly pursuing less recoil using this Henry rifle with short brass, there comes a point where you eventually have to say "this dog don't hunt." I would suggest looking for a different rifle in a different caliber for your teenage son to hunt with, until he grows into the Henry using 41m ammunition as it is designed to do.

One more thing to consider, you can't keep going down in velocity and boolit weight to reduce report and recoil before you will soon face the question of ethics. Would there be enough energy left once the boolit reaches the target to humanely take deer?