45 LC Very Slow Loadings ???

[The Old Salt]

Can you load a 230 gr to 255 gr LWC or LSWC to a muzzle velocity of 450 fps with either Unique or 700X? The 2 powders I have on hand, And do it safely? Because if it can not be safely done why do it.

It will be fired out of a 2 1/2” bbl S&W Governor. Because the Governor is built to fire 2 1/2” .410 ga, 45 LC and 45 acp it can stand up to 45 acp pressured, has an extremely long throat even for 45LC (0.9”) causing an appreciable pressure drop because of blow by.

Why? Its a nightstand gun. Concern is a miss or over penetration that goes through the walls and out into a neighborhood of single family homes.

So how slow can you safely go?

[megasupermagnum]

Just based on my time firelapping, 450 fps doesn't always exit the barrel. That is not safe.

[HWooldridge]

I used to play around with heavy, slow bullets in a Colt 1911 45 acp. A friend of mine had a chronograph and the lowest velocity I was comfortable shooting was about 600 fps. Like Mega wrote, you get to a point where a projectile could lodge in a barrel - bad news in an emergency situation.

IIRC, I was shooting a 260 gr bullet over a light charge of Red Dot - just enough to cycle the slide. You could do something similar with 45 LC.

[Bigslug]

Four part reply:

1. Your first priority should be on stopping the threat, which is why you're firing the gun in the first place. Misses and/or pass-throughs are "what-ifs" that should be placed WAY farther down the list of your concerns. The reason why we ended up with the FBI's elaborate gelatin test protocols ad standards was that a lot of the carry ammo of the 1980's failed to penetrate ENOUGH. If your life ends with an axe planted in your head because your ammo was too gutless, what was the point of the exercise?

2. There are plenty of police duty loads out there, and rough equivalents to match them in other calibers, that are designed to do what's necessary in tissue, and not have very much gas left in the tank afterwards. For example, CCI offers an aluminum cased Blazer loading for .45 Colt of the 200 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow point at 1000fps (what their test barrel length was, I can't say). In tissue, that's going to pancake out and stop quickly. In common building materials, it's relatively low mass and high frontal area will slow it down with reasonable haste.

3. If you don't already have a copy of Veral Smith's Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets, it's one you should acquire. In it, Veral outlines the process of loading a large, heavy-for-caliber revolver bullet (.44 Mag / .45 Colt) seated deep in the case against a small-ish charge of faster-burn-rate pistol powder. This would be a reasonable place to start, but you must remember that even slow, heavy solids can penetrate A LOT.

4. You have the Governor's .410 option, which provides you with the choice of 4 000 buckshot pellets (.36 caliber), or a single 100-110 grain slug. These don't have a lot of projectile mass, and the stated muzzle velocities will be WAAAAY down over what is listed due to your short barrel.

[pworley1]

If you are worried about over penetration just use the 410 and number 4 or 6 shot.

[The Old Salt]

Thanks to all gor your interest and replies.
FYI … I have the Federal 000 Buckshot rds, and I have developed a loading using 3ea 83 gr. 0000 buckshot (0.380” dia sized to 0.358”) in a power piston, over 8gr Unique, loaded into a 444 Marlin brass. It patterns less than 4” at 20’ at MVs in the 750-800 range.

I have seen 45 LC loads in the 580 fps range but from longer bbls. They might work for a slower load because of the Governor’s 2 1/2” bbl.

Thanks for the Heads Up on the non bbl exiting loads. Definitely something to look out for.

[PositiveCaster]

If you are worried about over penetration just use the 410 and number 4 or 6 shot.

The problem there is that bird shot doesn’t penetrate tissue well even from a 12 ga. shotgun. It would be even worse out of a 2” .410 barrel. But birdshot won’t penetrate walls very well either. IMO if I plan on a dinky shot-pistol for home defense I’ll use the most effective fight stopping round. YMMV.

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/bird-shot-for-self-defense

https://www.guns.com/news/review/birdshot-vs-buckshot-why-birdshot-is-never-better-for-home-defense





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[45workhorse]

How about a soft lead round ball?

[Harter66]

I once squashed so .360 RB out to 458 and loaded them like a 250ish WC , 4 in a Colts case for 600 fps . That out of a 7.5" Ruger . A stacked wad and something similar in your 444 case should due nicely . Hard to fight when you can't breathe .

Somebody is making a 250 WC mould , I can't remember if it's NOE or MP but a HB version might be a deal .

[T-Bird]

#4 is not your ordinary "bird" shot. Somebody pops you with a load at 15' you're probably not gonna want another ( which should be following close behind)!

[HWooldridge]

How about a soft lead round ball?

That worked well enough in the old cap-and-ball percussion pistols.

[17nut]

Many moons ago i loaded 0.8grains Trailboss under a Lee 255 grain bullet for something like 200fps out of a 7½" SAA.
Suprisingly accurate even at 25 yds. Was weird to see the bullet all the way to the target.

[45DUDE]

#4 is not your ordinary "bird" shot. Somebody pops you with a load at 15' you're probably not gonna want another ( which should be following close behind)!

And it won't stick in the barrel.:smile:

[PositiveCaster]

#4 is not your ordinary "bird" shot. Somebody pops you with a load at 15' you're probably not gonna want another ( which should be following close behind)!

You know this from personal experience, right? SMH. First off the OP only has a half-ounce of shot, and it will be moving really slowly out of that 2-1/2” barrel. So you’d have very limited mass with low energy which will be spread out quite a bit at 15’ when fired from that rifled barrel. While I wouldn’t want to be shot with that load (or anything else for that matter) would I trust my life and the lives of my family with it when there are much better options? No. But neighbors in the area would be safe from over-penetration, so the #4s have that going for them.

If the intruder is armed with a high-cap 9mm that #4 shot load would be like bringing a dull knife to a gun fight. Feel free to recommend it to others though, after all it’s not your life that would be at stake…. ;)


https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-43-buckshot-in-a-rifled-shotgun-barrel.377/


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[Harter66]

Search 450 Mongo .

A HB from a 45 ACP would be functionally the same as out of a compact auto . Maybe a full size , you have a cylinder 2.75" long that is as much a closed breach as any then 2.5" of barrel . That would give you at least the values of a 4" SAA or 1917 . Again with an HB bullet .

This is a wonderful opportunity to play with some really exotic shot loading. The Governor is cut for moon clips and headspace on rims . A full 2.5 inch brass case with a LRP or LPP that can be loaded to 21,000 psi as needed and use 3 or 4.452-.458 balls over a BP gas seal . Best part they hang 6x on a speed loader . It takes a 6 gun and gives you 18-24 balls of 45 cal at 141 gr and while they're only poking along at 650-700 fps the target will be likely hit with all 3 or 4 balls . The discs mentioned above at 20 yd and 600 fps would cut right through half inch plywood or OSB. I can say for certain I don't want to be on the business end of a .450/140gr/6-700 fps ball much less 3 of them that will hit within a 4" circle .
If the balls miss the lands ........well their RB or almost, so who cares if they tumble .
You don't have to poke a hole in it if you break it up in enough pieces .

Question what do you call a case with a .473 rim , a .484 head , a .480 mouth and 2.5" long ? Well it's almost a 458 WM with no belt it's the same capacity as a 45-70 ......it's just an 06' blown straight .

[jonp]

Many moons ago i loaded 0.8grains Trailboss under a Lee 255 grain bullet for something like 200fps out of a 7½" SAA.
Suprisingly accurate even at 25 yds. Was weird to see the bullet all the way to the target.

Did you use a filler with that like Dacron?

[17nut]

No. Trailboss is quite bulky.

[fredj338]

Can you load a 230 gr to 255 gr LWC or LSWC to a muzzle velocity of 450 fps with either Unique or 700X? The 2 powders I have on hand, And do it safely? Because if it can not be safely done why do it.

It will be fired out of a 2 1/2” bbl S&W Governor. Because the Governor is built to fire 2 1/2” .410 ga, 45 LC and 45 acp it can stand up to 45 acp pressured, has an extremely long throat even for 45LC (0.9”) causing an appreciable pressure drop because of blow by.

Why? Its a nightstand gun. Concern is a miss or over penetration that goes through the walls and out into a neighborhood of single family homes.

So how slow can you safely go?

You could do it with 700X & a chrono but your reasoning is false. If it wont go thru drywall, it wont penetrate deep enough to stop a threat. I would focus more on your shooting ability & understand your background where shots may have to be taken from.

[jim 44-40]

I don't think in the heat of the night and someone breaks in the house I would want a gallery load to defend my family. And if the intruder is using a door inside your house for cover, you might wish you had more power behind that load!

[VariableRecall]

I recently had a rather powder-puff load with my latest batch of reloads for .45 Colt, but this might do you good for a relatively low velocity load. Felt almost as much recoil as a 9mm. It was a 300gn projectile with 5.2gn of Win 231. There was not enough pressure to properly obturate the case and there was quite a bit of unburnt powder everywhere, but I'd still categorize it as a potentially "man stopping" load. I'd say, add a little more powder to about 5.8gn for a better powder burn.
Either way, I'm glad to have followed the reloading manuals and starting from the very bottom until working my way up to a load that will burn effectively in the firearms I load for.

For a 200gn SWC load with the Win 231 powder, I've had very soft shooting results with about 6gn of powder. Still some issues with case obturation, but I'd say, make very small batches, and keep a close eye for unburnt powder and proper case obturation.

[35 Rem]

My vote is to change guns altogether. My choice for home defense is a 12 gauge pump with 2.75" #4 buckshot loads. They are going to be very lethal inside a house but much less potential to penetrate walls than just about any single bullet. You can't stop a bad guy with anything that absolutely won't penetrate a single wall. Birdshot in a 410 revolver is not much more than wishful thinking in my opinion. Wishful thinking that could get you killed if you ever had to rely on it to stop an armed intruder.

If the 45 Colt is to be used I'd say that a heavy load with the lightest hollow point bullet you could find might serve the need better than slowing a heavy bullet down.

[fredj338]

My vote is to change guns altogether. My choice for home defense is a 12 gauge pump with 2.75" #4 buckshot loads. They are going to be very lethal inside a house but much less potential to penetrate walls than just about any single bullet. You can't stop a bad guy with anything that absolutely won't penetrate a single wall. Birdshot in a 410 revolver is not much more than wishful thinking in my opinion. Wishful thinking that could get you killed if you ever had to rely on it to stop an armed intruder.

If the 45 Colt is to be used I'd say that a heavy load with the lightest hollow point bullet you could find might serve the need better than slowing a heavy bullet down.
Agree, birdshot is for birds. Even a denim jacket slows #6 shot down enough to not penetrate thicker muscle, certainly wont break bones & just 30ft.

[pmer]

Thanks to all gor your interest and replies.
FYI … I have the Federal 000 Buckshot rds, and I have developed a loading using 3ea 83 gr. 0000 buckshot (0.380” dia sized to 0.358”) in a power piston, over 8gr Unique, loaded into a 444 Marlin brass. It patterns less than 4” at 20’ at MVs in the 750-800 range.

I have seen 45 LC loads in the 580 fps range but from longer bbls. They might work for a slower load because of the Governor’s 2 1/2” bbl.

Thanks for the Heads Up on the non bbl exiting loads. Definitely something to look out for.

I'd say stick with this load. Nothing says your in the wrong place better than buckshot. I wouldn't want to be flirting with squibs in a deffence situation.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Agree, birdshot is for birds. Even a denim jacket slows #6 shot down enough to not penetrate thicker muscle, certainly wont break bones & just 30ft.

You guys are so silly. It's #4 high brass birdshot in my bedside gun. Watch as both #4 and #8 blow through 4 layers denim then turn a pork shoulder and ribs into pink mist.
https://youtu.be/97sjv11yesc

I wouldn't trust one of those gimmick shotgun revolvers with anything, but out of a real shotgun heavy bird does the job.

[Harter66]

I did load a 350 gr for a carbine with a 350 gr it would only do 600 fps in a 7.5" pistol but 1250 fps in a 20" rifle . Same load as the 62 gr 222 .