New 41 Colt

[barkerwc4362]

I have been searching for one of the Cimarron P jrs in 41 Colt for a long time and finally found one on Gunbroker.
301723
I took it out to see how it would shoot. I am really pleased! The group below was fired at 12 paces, two handed, using a dead center hold. Load was 3 grains of Bullseye, CCI small pistol primer, Starline cases, and bullets cast from a 1-30 alloy in the MP double cavity hollow based mold. Bullet weighs about 198 grains in 1-30. Lube was SPG.
301724

Bill

[smkummer]

Interesting. I am loading 41 colt with hollow base bullets for a Bisley and army special. Both have bore diameters of about .408-.409. What bullets are you using?

[Pereira]

Nice shootin.

RP

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wow....does it get any better than that? New revolver, cast your own boolits, load your own ammo, and shoot the middle out of the target. I'm sure you won't be selling that gun anytime soon! :Fire:

DG

[smkummer]

Just shot my 41 Bisley in a cowboy match and let 3 other try 5 round out of it. 3 grains bullseye and Lyman’s hollow base 195 grain bullet is more power than any 38 shot at the cowboy range today. Those juniors are allowed in cowboy matches now.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Thanks for posting Barkerwc4362.
It’s cool to see actual results from a 41 Colt. I’ve shied away from both 38 Colt and 41 Colt because of the bored through chambers and heeled or hollow base boolits.

I don’t think those calibers will ever show up at a silhouette match. But those calibers were made for defensive use and your target confirms the 41 Colt can group it’s shots in about 1 minute of thoracic cavity at 12 paces. That’s as good or better than I see most indoor range shooters do with a 9mm Glock.

[missionary5155]

Mr Keith referred to the 41 Colt as a very good "man-stopper".
I would tend to agree as 200 - 240 grains .41 cast of 40-1 pushed by a case full of Goex 3F smacks large ground hogs and such with authority.
I need to look into those "New Colt 41's".

[Good Cheer]

What chamber configuration and bore diameter do the new .41's have?

[robertbank]

I loaded for a number of years my Great Grand-dads 41 Long Colt with both Hollow Base and Heel Base Bullets. I even used the lighter Lyman Heel Base mold for the 41 Short Colt. It always performed poorly. That said it was designed more for Derringer style pistols not meant for longer distances. I only managed fair accuracy out of the old gun. Snaller cylinder throats and a larger barrel did not serve the gun well. I cracked the forcing cone eventually and my 'smith installed a new .357 barrel on the gun, a 38Long Colt cylinder and now shoot very light 38spl loads through the gun with very much improved accuracy. The gun resurrection of the gun capable of shooting 38 spl light loads keeps the gun an Antique due to our stupid gun laws but being an Antique it evades our current gun laws and remains unregistered and is allowed to be shot anywhere it is legal to discharge a firearm. When you live with the nonsense we do up here the Antique status is a good thing.

Personally, outside of Cowboy Action and the desire to own something different I think the cartridge leaves a lot to be desired.

To the OP enjoy your revolver and the cartridge it shoots. The combo might drive you crazy but you will enjoy the journey. I did. My Grand dad told my the cartridge served with the Vancouver Police Department for awhile back in the 40's and 50's and I read the Short Colt was a favourite with the Ladies of the Evening in certain brothels across the US.

Take Care

Bob

[yeahbub]

That sure is a pretty pistol. . . .

I've wondered whether going the route of putting a .380-.385 groove diameter barrel and a cylinder with appropriately throated chambers on a .41 Colt and switching to inside lubricated boolits would have saved it from obscurity, the same way the .38's were better served by mounting .357 groove diameter barrels. The whole heeled boolit thing seems interesting, but having exposed lube grooves sound messy.

[Wayne Smith]

I use a 200gr Lee HB heeled boolit in mine. Given the length of the boolit I have to trim the shells to fit cartridge in the cylinder. Lee Alox solves the messy problem - just use just enough to give it a very light coat and it will dry. It's nice having that cartridge in a pistol that fits my .22 holster.

Mine is the Uberti as well, so it's made of modern materials and properly heat treated.

[Good Cheer]

Looks as though the cartridge is fine but the guns are incorrectly designed.
That's why I asked about the dimensions on the new reproductions.

[yeahbub]

Just brain-storming here, but looking at the .408-.409 groove dimensions in the post by smkummer, if the heel diameter is the published .386", the heel will have to bump up .022-.023" or .011+ on a side to achieve full diameter. Seems like a lot to ask for. I wonder what the ID of a fired case is and how much closer to groove diameter a matching heel would get it. IIRC, I had read somewhere that original groove diameters were on the order of .401-.403, which would also help somewhat.

Maybe a .400 barrel would be a big help. This is the same problem as the repro C&B revolvers, but their chambers are a lot closer with only a .005 or so bump necessary.

I like the old cartridges, .44 Colt, .41 Long Colt, .38's, etc. Trying to figure what cartridge/chamber/barrel dimensional relationships it would take to come up with reliably accurate heeled boolit. The thought I had would be to order a 200gr mold at fired case ID, with one lube groove close to the bottom for the heel and the desired number farther up, with a long nose. This would be sized and lubed conventionally, later to be swaged in a two-diameter swage die, forming the heel to finished diameter and length (possibly with a hollow on the heel punch/ejector) and forward portion to the chamber diameter and final shape with the nose punch, say a RNFP or RNHP in one op, for the pistol in question. The gears are churning. . . . .

[missionary5155]

Think of a boat tail bullet. That rear slanted under diameter portion never touches the barrel yet the bullet flies straight.
Heel soft cast may bump up some but it is the full groove diameter front of the cast that does the work. We use 40-1 mix.
Lee makes a hollow based heel mold that should open that skirt up and give some rear seal.
We shoot our's with 3F Goex. Mainly a 41 Colt double action but also our Thunderers. I have seen few Heel cast that show any rifling marks on the heel portion.
The 41 was not meant to be a target round. Personal defense at pistol fighting range was the idea as Mr Elmer Kieth described it. But we find the Colt double action New Army good enough to smack cans at 15 yards. This one has a 6" barrel and was well taken care of.

[Good Cheer]

Don't know but then again maybe I'd want to ream the chambers to .41 Special.

[yeahbub]

The 41 was not meant to be a target round.

True fact. And, I suppose, at self-defense distances, one doesn't need much precision. Some years ago, I had read an article by Mike Venturino in Handloader Magazine about his efforts to load accurate ammo for a lever-action in, IIRC, .32 Long Colt. One of his findings was that, to have reliable accuracy, the heel had to bump up to full groove diameter and be virtually indistinguishable from a boolit which never had a heel. Recovered .22 bullets are like this. He tried changing a lot of different details, alloys, heel lengths, with and without lube grooves, lubes, powders, etc. before he got what he was after. A very informative article.

That sounds like a good idea, Good Cheer, .41 Special. With barrel dimensions that smkummer describes, that would be just the ticket if sufficient material thickness is available. And yeah, the .41 Colt errors seem to be in improper chamber/barrel dimensioning, not the cartridge itself.

[Good Cheer]

Getting the base to bump up sure sounds like the way to go.
Shouldn't the heel base be made with a dished backside to get it to expand?
Like for a percussion revolver with small chambers.
http://i.imgur.com/cR48eGo.jpg (https://imgur.com/cR48eGo)

[yeahbub]

Hey, that's a nifty looking boolit! What caliber?

IIRC, Venturino settled on a plain heel rather than a hollow-base, but the hollow-base are definitely easier to expand. I suppose one question would be how thin the skirt should be to not distort and ruin accuracy. Given a full-diameter nose, I'd expect accuracy wouldn't be too hard to achieve

[barkerwc4362]

The Uberti has .402 cylinder throats. Definitely not like the original Colts. I am still doing load development. I have the MP 200 gr hollow based double cavity mold and the Accurate 200 gr four cavity heel based bullet mold. The Accurate mold casts a .406 bullet in pure lead. I size them down to .402 using a Lee custom sizing die. Once loaded they are lubed with liquid alox. The MP bullets are cast in 1/30 alloy. They are run through a .388 sizer and lubed with SPG. I use the Redding .41 Colt die set. the hollow based bullets are loaded in full length Starline cases. I had to cut the Starline cases to 1.10 to load the heel based bullets for the Uberti. Full length is 1.125. I use the Old West full length crimp die to crimp the heel based bullets. The hollow based bullets show higher velocities and lower extreme spreads than the heel based bullets with the same powder charges. Haven't hit 3.5 gr Bullseye or 5 gr Unique yet. Also feel I may need a little more crimp for both bullets. It is a fun gun to shoot. Still doing load work up.
Bill

[Good Cheer]

Hey there yeahbub.
That's for a .36 caliber. Started out as a round ball mold. The spherical portion shears on the chamber mouth. The cylindrical portion slips into the chamber to maintain alignment.

[ATCDoktor]

I shoot a couple of 41 Long Colts.

This one (a refinished Colt New Army commercial model that dates from 1898):

https://i.postimg.cc/BZd2TZYr/AD27B3A7-7887-4C04-BAF1-B99F5BD51A7D.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And this one (Colt Army Special that dates from 1912):
https://i.postimg.cc/6Qz4PnrP/AA5F5F82-E7FE-4C56-A372-F26C51754F9E.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/Hxx81n3k/F061BBB6-986B-4F91-92A1-266A573F1FF4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I’ve tried both heel based bullets and hollow based bullets and find that the heel based give better accuracy (granted it’s not target grade as has been pointed out.

That said, I fired this group at 15 yards (single action offhand) with the New Army using the Lyman 386178 200 grain Hollow Based design and Trail Boss.
https://i.postimg.cc/XNZwBB8K/2C7C636F-8F9C-4256-82B7-8887E2619D8B.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Heel based bullets shoot a good deal better at the same distance but it still not all that great.

[barkerwc4362]

These are the two bullets I am presently using in my Uberti. The one on the left is the heel based bullet from an Accurate 4 cavity mold. It casts a 200 gr bullet using pure lead. I trimmed the Starline brass to 1.10 to just allow the heel based bullet to fit in the cylinder and allow it to rotate. I size the heel based bullet to .402 for the cylinder throats. The bullets are crimped using the Old West full length crimp die. The bullets are lubed using a q-tip dipped in Lee liquid ALOX. The bullet on the right is a hollow based bullet from an MP two cavity mold. It casts a 198 gr bullet using 1-30 alloy. The bullets are lubed in an RCBS Lube a matic with SPG and a .388 sizing die. I used the Starline brass full length. The bullets are seated and crimped using a Redding seating die. All sizing and expansion are done using the Redding die set.
302740

[barkerwc4362]

Well I got out this morning and did some load work with the Uberti .41. I started off with the heel-based bullets. First load was 3.6 grains Bulleye. Yeah, I know the max is supposed to be 3.5, but the little Dandy #5 throws 3.6. The cases I am using are 1.105 instead of .900, so I have some wiggle room. Here are the results for 15 shots at about 12 yards, two handed:
302866

Next load was 5.1 grains Unique. Little Dandy throws 5.1 with a #11. Again 5.0 is listed as the max, but cases are longer. Here are the results for 15 shots at about 12 yards, two handed:
302867

Hollow based are next. First load was 3.5 grains Bulleye. These were hand thrown and weighed. Here are the results for 15 shots at about 12 yards, two handed:
302868
Don't ask about the flyer at 10 O'clock????

Next load was 5.1 grains Unique. Little Dandy throws 5.1 with a #11. Here are the results for 15 shots at about 12 yards, two handed:
302869

I believe I will stick with Unique. I am probably going to trim the heel-based cases another 0.005 or 0.010 to insure the loaded round won't tie up the cylinder. Surprised the heel-based out shot the hollow-based. Especially since the hollow-based up to this point showed more promise.

I plan on running them over the chronograph later this week or next week. Curious what the velocities look like.
Bill