Carbide expander buttons for rifle dies

[AnthonyB]

Fellas,
I am a slow learner and have just read about Lyman decapping/expanding rods with carbide expander buttons for RCBS dies. Dillon dies come with the carbide expander, but I don’t see them in any others makes.
Thinking that would be very handy for processing .308 brass on a progressive press. Anyone use one, or just remove the expander button and expand with an M die?
Tony

[Winger Ed.]

The advantage of the expander ball is it works for the whole length of the neck.
Without it, the 'M' die will open up/flare some of the neck, but I'd think the rest of it would really be on the tight side.

If you made your own 'M' type die, the front part would need to do the job of the expander,
and sort of get you back to it being handy to just use the expander ball in a sizer die and save a separate step.

The carbide expander ball is the same size as the old regular ones, they just last longer.
I'd think a "M" die would wear down at the same rate a old school expander does when used the same way in a tight neck.

I like to see folks try different things, and raise questions.
However; I think this concept has been pretty well worked out already.

[AnthonyB]

My thought was the carbide expander would make up for a potential lack of lube in the case necks when cases are sprayed with lanolin/alcohol mix. I don’t mind lubing individual neck for a box of twenty rifle loads, but processing a 5 gallon bucket is different.
Tony

[Winger Ed.]

I don’t mind lubing individual neck for a box of twenty rifle loads, but processing a 5 gallon bucket is different.
Tony

When doing rifle ammo, I process it in increments of 100, it usually ends up being 4-500.
For 5.56 and 7.62NATO, like for handgun ammo---- its at least 1,000 at a time.
Yeah, I'm old and brass used to be WAY cheaper than it is now.

What works for me is lay them out in rows on the bench, usually 1-200 at a time where I'm looking into the necks.
Spray 'em with 'one shot', roll them about 1/2 turn, spray again.
I spray at a low angle so the 'one shot' goes into the neck. Then run them through the sizer/de-cap/ expander ball die.

I've trashed a few regular expander balls, but I get much more mileage out of the carbide ones.

[AnthonyB]

Ed, I’ll try to low angle approach. I have been putting the brass in a plastic bag to spray lube and then swirl them around to get more even coverage.

Once I get the initial sizing and trimming done the numbers to process after shooting get much more manageable.
Tony

[Winger Ed.]

I'm big on lubing inside the neck.
For my lay 'em flat method, I put them on a old 'T' shirt layed out flat to keep them clean too.

It might be my imagination, but I think I've had some cases where there was a lot of resistance to
pull the case down off the ball, and it might have pulled the shoulder angle up some.

For no reason, I've had a random full sized .30-06 not want the bolt to close in a real tight chamber.
I think the expander was was trying to make its own version of a Ackley Improved case.

I think the big advantage of the carbide expander ball is that it will last longer going out through dirty
and/or un-lubed necks. With clean and lubed necks-- it should last forever.

[farmbif]

I really like carbide expansion buttons, I ve got em put on just about every Redding size dies I own, they I think were the first to introduce them. and back then I could afford them with no problem. I wish I had them on every die set I have.

[GregLaROCHE]

I removed the expanders from my dies when I started using the NOE expanding system. I don’t do high volume reloading, but understand that those who do, would want the button system. You can’t beat carbide, especially if your doing high volume.

[jetinteriorguy]

Depending on the setup of your progressive press, if you have enough stations to body size followed by neck sizing you might try a Redding body die followed by a Lee Collet neck sizing die. Using this method my concentricity is consistently.001”or less better than 95% of the time, and the worst I’ve ever see was .003”. No neck lube required.

[farmbif]

after reading through these I think maybe there are two different things going on. there are expander buttons on the decapping/primer punch rod in sizing dies and then there are case mouth expanders like powder through and Lyman "m" dies and others like the noe system or such where you expand case mouth to insert a cast bullet without the lead getting shaved off when seating. ive never seen a carbide "m" die or any carbide case mouth expander that is use before the seating die, but there are new things coming out all the time and off course I'm not an expert just a hobbyest

[shortlegs]

For lubing the case necks and body, I use a small plastic storage box that will hold several hundred 223 cases and spray with homemade case lube. I spray the brass and shake/swirl the brass to distribute the lube and that causes a lot of the cases to stand up so I spray again into the necks. Yes I miss a few necks but the residual lube left on the expander ball takes care of them.

[Winger Ed.]

there are new things coming out all the time

Yep. Just goes to show ya-- There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[pertnear]

I know that the new dies with neck-bushings are the must have for accuracy fanatics. While I realize the right size bushings minimize "working" the brass, I was wondering why die makers don't offer carbide sizing buttons in sets of 3 or 4 in increasing graduations of .001" diameter? Seems like another way of controlling neck tension. Just a thought...

[fatnhappy]

Anthony,
Hornady made carbide expanders for a short time and abandoned them. I believe they also fit redding dies.

I looked to see if I still have one in .306, which I know I do. When I find it I'll send you a PM.

[Shiloh]

Redding made them.
Not sure if they are compatible with non Redding dies.

Shiloh

[AnthonyB]

I looked to see if I still have one in .306, which I know I do. When I find it I'll send you a PM.

Thanks for looking!
Tony

[lightman]

As a few others mentioned, Redding also makes carbide expander balls for their dies. I have them for the cartridges that I load in volume. I believe that I get less neck stretching by using them. They are somewhat expensive!

I also use Lanolin lube. My method is to put a hundred or few hundred cases in a gallon ZipLoc bag, give them a couple of squirts of lube, shake, rattle and roll them around for a few minutes and then dump them out to dry.

[jmorris]

My thought was the carbide expander would make up for a potential lack of lube in the case necks when cases are sprayed with lanolin/alcohol mix. I don’t mind lubing individual neck for a box of twenty rifle loads, but processing a 5 gallon bucket is different.
Tony

I use spray lube with Dillon dies by the 5 gallon bucket full, works for me.

[1hole]

I'm a low volume shooter, always been more interested in precision shooting than imitating Rambo.

Some forty or fifty years ago Redding sold carbide expander buttons for other dies. I got a couple and loved them ... until I got a gage to check seated bullet runout. I went back to my "M" expanders and, with Redding/Forster full length body sleeve "competition" seating dies, that's what I still do. (Love Lee's Collet Neck Sizers too!)

[Rich/WIS]

IIRC have seen the carbide expanders for Lyman and maybe RCBS, but this was years ago.

[megasupermagnum]

I've never tried a carbide expander ball, but I don't think they will help that much with concentricity, which is their biggest issue. It may or may not help with more consistent headspace.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. My preferred method for rifles is a body die followed by a Lee neck sizer. You can make a body die by lapping or drilling the neck portion of a normal expander ball die out, then replace the expander ball mandrel with a straight decapping pin. If on a single stage, you don't even need a decapping pin, as the neck sizer also has a decapping pin. Using two dies like this is both cheap, and gives you incredibly consistent brass. The best thing about the Lee collet neck sizer is you can use any size mandrel. You can make, or even order custom sizes. That is a much better method than using an M die, or NOE plug. I would even argue a collet neck sizer should produce more consistent neck tension than a bushing die, although if you are turning necks, it likely doesn't matter.

[remy3424]

/\ that is pretty solid thinking there/\ The Lee collet dies seem to work the brass less for me, small caliber brass seems to not grow slower. This is great for bolt guns, but in AR type rifles, not having small base body dies, I use the Imperial/Redding graphite to lube the inside of the necks, much less pressure needed to pull the expander through the neck and I think it has to help limit "stretching" the case when using those dies. Now if Lee would add the 17 Hornet to their standard produced Collet dies, I would be ordering that!

[megasupermagnum]

I too lube inside my case necks with imperial lube if using a full length sizer. It feels smoother, but has so-so improvement. I often see headspace variation around .004" from typical full length expander ball dies. It's also next to impossible to get neck concentricity below about .002". I really wish I had never bought that head space comparator, and concentricity jig, I would have been better off not knowing. :-P

Without the expander ball, most dies are pretty dang accurate, and it's much easier to get annealed cases to hold .001" headspace. Then using the Lee collet neck expander, they do a great job, concentricity about as good as you can ever expect, any variation is likely the neck thickness.

[jetinteriorguy]

I've never tried a carbide expander ball, but I don't think they will help that much with concentricity, which is their biggest issue. It may or may not help with more consistent headspace.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. My preferred method for rifles is a body die followed by a Lee neck sizer. You can make a body die by lapping or drilling the neck portion of a normal expander ball die out, then replace the expander ball mandrel with a straight decapping pin. If on a single stage, you don't even need a decapping pin, as the neck sizer also has a decapping pin. Using two dies like this is both cheap, and gives you incredibly consistent brass. The best thing about the Lee collet neck sizer is you can use any size mandrel. You can make, or even order custom sizes. That is a much better method than using an M die, or NOE plug. I would even argue a collet neck sizer should produce more consistent neck tension than a bushing die, although if you are turning necks, it likely doesn't matter.
This has been my experience as well. Using this method my runout is typically under .001” about 90%+ of the time and never over .002”. I also turn all the necks as well and when seating the effort required to seat bullets is very uniform according to my highly tuned sense of feel.

[45_Colt]

This is a good thread, I never knew about the Lee collet type neck sizing dies. Did pick up a .223 carbide expander some years back. But just to help out. Seemed to be a good idea at the time to prevent wear on the button.

45_Colt

[Rockzilla]

carbide expander buttons that I have are from CH Tool & Die Company (CH4D now)
don't know if they still make them but they work great.

M dies for cast bullets and flat base bullets

-Rock

[jetinteriorguy]

This is a good thread, I never knew about the Lee collet type neck sizing dies. Did pick up a .223 carbide expander some years back. But just to help out. Seemed to be a good idea at the time to prevent wear on the button.

45_Colt
Another nice feature of the Lee collet neck dies, you can order smaller mandrels for more neck tension if you so desire.

[Steve Steven]

Does anyone know if there are carbide expander buttons for Hornady dies?

Steve

[David2011]

Another option is to polish the expander ball. I’ve done it many times and can’t measure the metal removed with a .0001” resolution micrometer. Spin the decapping stem in a drill or drill press and polish the expander with 400 grit, going through several grits down to 1000 grit. It only takes a brief polish at each grit. It will take less effort to withdraw and if it was squeaking before, they’re usually much easier and quieter after polishing.

[Milky Duck]

Another option is to polish the expander ball. I’ve done it many times and can’t measure the metal removed with a .0001” resolution micrometer. Spin the decapping stem in a drill or drill press and polish the expander with 400 grit, going through several grits down to 1000 grit. It only takes a brief polish at each grit. It will take less effort to withdraw and if it was squeaking before, they’re usually much easier and quieter after polishing.

yes yes and yes again..this is pure gold and makes a HUGE difference, I dip case necks in powdered graphite in a wee jam jar lid with some bird shot to help move it around.... the 30/30 I resized the other night was the hardest Ive done for a long time and realised I havent polished that expander ball. did my .223 and .270 dies years ago and havent had issues ever since.

[Milky Duck]

Another nice feature of the Lee collet neck dies, you can order smaller mandrels for more neck tension if you so desire.

you could do that before by making expander ball smaller LOL....

[megasupermagnum]

you could do that before by making expander ball smaller LOL....

Sure you can, but you can't just go onto the Lee website and order a set of expander balls in .001" increments like you can with a mandrel. You can't even get oversized expander balls in any brand I know of, only undersized.

[Harter66]

To further the expander, M die , etc difficulties ........

I recently found that many sizing dies grossly oversize , and even more so for our needs . As an example the 2 sets of 6.5×50SR , well known to need at least a .267 dia jacketed , size all the way down to .261 . That is only made worse by my example needing a .272 bullet in a .270 neck size to start with that opens on up to .275 when fired . There's not a suitable 270 cartridge to over size the 27 cal to the super fat 6.5 .
I did find that an 8×57 neck die was perfect for the 7.7×58 as it needs a .317 which works out as the Mauser neck die sizes .316 for the x57J .318 dia .
The .310 expander from the 7.62×39 is great in most of my 30s but again we have the problem of the sizer going down to .304 and back up to .310 .

Bushing and mandrel dies relieve this to some degree but bushings weren't available for the extra fat 6.5 above .

Other work around have included using a 308 die as a neck die for 30-30 , the one I shoot is a bolt gun so no feed issues there .

The 32 Rem has a CH custom die , neat solution but pretty expensive if you have several arms in the same cartridge with fat shoulders , long shoulders , and a near match chamber .

So now we're left expanding separately and adding an extra step .
Every solution has a price ......
I was heired a $150 Type 38 Arisaka , mould , dies , custom, bushings for a bushing neck die , 2 custom bullet size dies , and a 3rd for paper patch cores ....... Just like that $40 bucks more in loading tools than the rifle is worth ...... But I've got it down to 4" at 100 .

Now I've had better cheaper results but I don't have much in the way of target guns , I mean the 264WM took a whole 40 rounds to find a 5 into .750 , prove it , and kill 3-4 hogs . Same deal with the 222 , 30-30 Savages . Others not so much .

I guess basically you just need to try stuff and see what works in each one .