New Guy- Couple Questions

[Slinger]

I'm new to the forum, but did alot of casting back in the 70s. Sold everything and now @ 59 yrs old, decided to get back into it. I've forgotten much of what little I knew.
Strictly in handguns - 38Sp., 357 Mag midrange & max velocity loads, 44 mag., 45 acp, & 45 Colt (1,000 fps or under). I'd like one ally to cover all of these. I've been shooting some 15BHN slugs in all & am getting pretty good results, although some leading in the 357 & 44 mag. Might be due to homemade Lube the guy is using(?).
I have about 600 lb of WW unmelted, and 50lb of Lino. Can buy some Lead free solder if need be. What do you fellas think about an alloy? I'm going to order some BAC or RED lube. Got a 450 Lyman Sizer.
In regards to water quenching- How long will the water quenched hardness remain with the slugs? I plan on storing some for a year or more- who knows, you use them as needed.
I used straight WWs way back, but I don't remember much about accuracy, leading, etc. I do remember using Javelina lube.
Appreciate any help you guys can offer up!
Great fourm! Have been reading alot here for awhile now.

[bbs70]

Welcome Slinger.
Glad to see someone closer to my age here (61).
I also got out of casting 15 years ago and sold all my stuff, don't know what I was thinking at the time.
Just got back into it a few months ago, have done a lot of memory refreshing here.
Great site and have learned a lot.

[OLPDon]

I would think the leading in you 357 & 44 mag. is due to the fact that the vol. 1000 fps and under is due to the boolit is not obiturating <(spelling is off) the bhn is not that bad. I run it about 16 to 18 bhn. Pump up the Vol. on the 357 & 44 Mag. See what happens then go from there/ I'm sure there will be alot of answers from the folks who are realy in the know.

I am 57 yrs young I welcome you back to this Great Hobbie and Welcome onboard.
Don

[454PB]

The one you may have trouble with is maximum velocities in .357 magnum. With proper sizing and lube, it can be done with a plain base boolit, but it can be trying.

WCWW (quenched from the mould) will harden to maximum over about 30 days, stabilize, then begin to slowly resoften after about a year. Though I water quench occasionally, it's more trouble than it's worth. I have plenty of monotype/linotype on hand, so I use alloying for hardness control.

[Slinger]

Thanks for the "Welcomes". Nice to know I'm in "Senior Citizen" company. I suspect that most of you don't believe in one BHN alloy to use in all the handguns, but I'd prefer to just have one alloy & have at it, if it didn't cause too many problems in accuracy. I 've been using commercial 18 BHN ( or thereabouts) cast bullets in the 45 ACP for quite a few years and they are very accurate. I'm talking shot off a bench accuracy that is 1" or under @ 25 yards. I don't think you need a bullet that hard in the 45 ACP, but it's hard to argue with the results. I've also done the same with bullets in the 14-15 BHN range not only in the 45 ACP but have gotton excellent accuracy from the softer alloy in the others as well..
So, do you think the lead wash on the lands is from the lube or the bullets? I say lube cause sometimes it's full length, sometimes at the forcing cone & most always at the muzzle. But it seems to me that 30+ years ago when I was casting I always had a little leading on the lands. Is it possible to eliminate it completely now with all the technology & experience in lubes, etc.? I know I have alot of questions......bear with me please!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hi Slinger, and welcome to this wonderful place!

I like your idea of having one alloy for all your pistol loading, and I think it will definitely work, IF you are not trying to shoot the magnums at max level.

You will find some minor differences of opinion here and there, but if you look around the forums here, you'll find that wheelweights, either plain, or plus a little tin (generally 1% to 2%), are the preferred alloys. These are good for up to 1200 fps, but pushed harder in the magnums, and you'll start getting some leading.

Hardening up the alloy a little to get it to work with the magnums, will make it hard enough that it won't obturate (seal) in the barrel in the low-pressure/velocity rounds... There's plenty of debate over the issue here at CB, so take some time and read, especially in the cast boolits forum.

[Buckshot]

.........Welcome Slinger! WW's ain't what they useta was these days. Both tin and antimony content is way down. I believe WW used to be figured at about 11 bhn but today it runs more toward 9 bhn. With WW and a GC'd slug plus good lube you should be able to make max book magnum loads.

Javalina (or NRA 50/50) was and still is a great lube. However since it's heyday there have been even better lubes developed. However they're hard lubes and require heat to flow in a lube-sizer press.

Assuning your WW is the older good(er) stuff we'll figure 11 bhn and your lino as say, 20 bhn. To get about 15 bhn, you could use 4 lbs of WW to 3 lbs of lino. Figure like this: 44 = 4 WW, 60 = 3 lino, then 44 + 60 = 107. Divide 107 by the number of one pound ingots (7) 104 / 7 = 14.85 bhn. Of course to be really sure you'd need a lead hardness tester. The previous is for an air cooled alloy. You could lose a pound of lino if you water dropped.

.................Buckshot

[EDK]

Welcome back. You'll love these forums for the information. AND the variety of powders and bullet designs is way better than when we started back in the 60s/70s.

WARNING: Get new reloading data manuals. The pressure standards we used years ago have been found to be excessive. My elderly spiral bound LYMAN cast bullet book shows loads considerably heavier than today's data for UNIQUE, etc. AND there's a lot of new powders too.

If this isn't the golden age of reloading and shooting technology, I can't wait for the real thing to arrive!

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[copdills]

Welcome to the forum Slinger

[Slinger]

Wow! Thanks fellas for all the information! I'll be doing alot of reading here to catch up that's for sure.
Although I didn't want to, I could use a GC slug in the mags. I'm in no hurry to buy mould, so I'll take my time in deciding. Thanks again!

[cajun shooter]

Started in 71 myself slinger. THere are plenty in our age range on this forum, I'm 62 come income tax day. You also might look at bullet sizing as a possible cause of leading. I'm casting some 44-40 for a friend that was sold .427 bullets for a rifle that sized out at a larger size. We have a member whom sells lubes and his BAC would cover all your shooting needs. Go to the bottom of the page and click on Lar's stuff. Welcome to the forum

[Bret4207]

Welcome home! If I read this right, you're currently using 15 Bhn alloy. That's plenty hard to handle most anything short of the specialized apps, in handguns at least. If your local WW run soft you can add MAGNUM shot to up the Sb and trace elements and tin can found in solder, etc.

Your leading issues may well be a result of poor fit rather than failing lube. I bought a lot of 50/50 years ago and have used that and Lee Liquid Alox (Mule Snot) with success into the 1800 fps area. Fit is King with cast boolits. With a harder alloy it's even more important. I'm sure you'll get the info on fit as you read through the posts here. Find out what your guns require as to fit, there is plenty of information here on slugging barrels and chambers and chamber casts and all that. In short use the fattest boolit you can in you gun. +.002-3 can be used with perfect safety and can lead to excellent results.

There is no one lube or one size or alloy that will give you the answer. Each gun is a law unto itself and it's your job to fit the boolits to that gun.

[Slinger]

[QUOTE=Bret4207;480403]Welcome home! If I read this right, you're currently using 15 Bhn alloy. That's plenty hard to handle most anything short of the specialized apps, in handguns at least. If your local WW run soft you can add MAGNUM shot to up the Sb and trace elements and tin can found in solder, etc.

As a matter of fact, I've got quite alot of Magnum shot from my registered trap shooting days.
All the cast slugs I'm shooting are .002" larger than the bore or a bit more. I'll paly with it. I found that in two guns, the .38 cal. 158 gr. TFP is by far the most accurate profile at velocities from 750 on up to just over 1400. This would be in 38 Sp. & 357 mag. The 158 SWC would not shoot well irregardless. Second best was the 158 RCBS cowboy bullet profile. But I get a little wash on the lands with the hotter loads. I've got BAC & Red samples coming.

[Gunslinger]

I like the idea of "One alloy to rule them all" :-D

However, if I were in your shoes, I'd make 2 different alloys. One from mainly WWs (maybe water quenched) for the low velocity loads such as .38 special, .45 acp and .45 LC. And for your .357 and .44 magnums I'd add a little lino to the mix. This wouldn't require a lot of ekstra work, and if your are low on lino, I'd save it for where it is really needed!

Last time I smelted lead into ingots for later casting for my .38 special and 9mm I think I used 80% range lead, 10% WWs and 10% lino. Sure when dropping the ingots on the congrete floor, I could hear that they wheren't as hard as the ones I usually make, where I add more lino. After reading in here for quite some time, I realized that I really didn't need my .38's and 9's to be so hard. This time I made them softer. And havent seen any decrease in accuracy or any leading for that matter. The guns aren't slugged and I size to .357.

[waksupi]

Welcome Slinger. You will find that WW's will work for pretty much any application. I push them up to factory velocities when heat treated, no muss, no fuss, no leading.

[Slinger]

So, I'm wondering if you guys get a little lead wash on the lands with the hotter loads using your alloyLube or is the bore clean? I've got a story to tell, hope it interests you. I have a Smith Model 14- 6" blued 38 sp. Bought it unfired a couple years ago. Also have a 6" Stainless Ruger GP-100. I couldn't get either to shoot accurately with cast slugs in the 158 gr SWC class. The 38 Sp will shoot Swaged 148 gr HBWCs like there's no tomorrow. Same true with 125 gr. Jacketed stuff. The Gp-100 wanted to shoot the 158 gr. cast SWC, but I couldn't get it to let go. I had both Forcing Cones recut in hopes of healping accuracy. It did a little. That's when my buddy sent me some of his 158 gr SWc. No better. He sent me some Saeco 158 gr. TFP & RCBS 158 gr. Cowboy Boolit, both sized on a new Star/Magma. Bingo! Groups shrunk @ 25 yards off of bags. I couldn't believe it! And, hopefully without sound egotistical, I've had three or four lifetimes of shooting experience & knowledge thru testing. I've never seen that dramatic of a increase in accuracy in a handgun, let alone two of 'em. I think it's more of the change in bullet profile as opposed to the sizer. I do get some leading or wash, depending on the load, but the accuracy is much improved. I think the lube is still a part of the leading as it's homemade & he's experimenting with it.

[Willbird]

From some of what I am reading on the web the age factor in heat treated alloys hinges directly on Tin content, the more Tin the more hardness they lose over time.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

according to the article at the link above

"We have all heard that heat treated bullet alloy will age soften over time but how much and how fast does this occur? While cleaning out the cabinet under my loading bench I came across a couple of box's of 35 caliber, RCBS 200 gr. heat treated bullet's properly labeled with the alloy (clip-on weights + 2% tin), the date and a BHN of 30. They were over 10 years old so I figured they would be putty by now but they tested at 26 BHN. 10 years, how is this possible? Taking from the "Key To Metals" article the antimony content of at least 4% and a low tin content controls the age strengthening and age softening of the alloy. It seems that if the percentage of tin had been higher or the percentage of antimony lower (or both) age softening would have been faster. With the box of heat treated bullets was a box of 7mm bullets of the same alloy and with the same date but not heat treated, the label said 11 BHN. In 10 years they also age softened and now test at 10 BHN."

[Slinger]

Willbird- Now that's definitely worth knowing....I wanted to heat treat & store them , a stash if you will, but from what I'd heard about them softening, I figured I'd only cast/treat what I'd shoot up in a year. I don't really shoot that many of the hot-loaded .357 or .44 Mag stuff. Half a dozen times a summer I'll shoot 50+ rounds each session at 100-200 yards, just to keep myself tuned up. I shoot alot of 45 acp & a good number of 38 sp., in defensive type practice shooting.

[Maven]

Slinger, Why would you need to harden your CB's (via oven or water-dropping) if you don't intend to exceed ~1,000fps? If you're getting leading at that speed (chronographed/verified?), I'd look at bullet fit (the diameters you're sizing to for each gun) first and lube second. Btw, Ken Mollohan (Molly on this board) has an article in the current Fouling Shot magazine (CBA) that questions the idea of bullet obturation. In short, except for swaged .22cal. rimfire bullets (very soft Pb), he didn't find much evidence of it.

[Bret4207]

So, I'm wondering if you guys get a little lead wash on the lands with the hotter loads using your alloyLube or is the bore clean? I've got a story to tell, hope it interests you. I have a Smith Model 14- 6" blued 38 sp. Bought it unfired a couple years ago. Also have a 6" Stainless Ruger GP-100. I couldn't get either to shoot accurately with cast slugs in the 158 gr SWC class. The 38 Sp will shoot Swaged 148 gr HBWCs like there's no tomorrow. Same true with 125 gr. Jacketed stuff. The Gp-100 wanted to shoot the 158 gr. cast SWC, but I couldn't get it to let go. I had both Forcing Cones recut in hopes of healping accuracy. It did a little. That's when my buddy sent me some of his 158 gr SWc. No better. He sent me some Saeco 158 gr. TFP & RCBS 158 gr. Cowboy Boolit, both sized on a new Star/Magma. Bingo! Groups shrunk @ 25 yards off of bags. I couldn't believe it! And, hopefully without sound egotistical, I've had three or four lifetimes of shooting experience & knowledge thru testing. I've never seen that dramatic of a increase in accuracy in a handgun, let alone two of 'em. I think it's more of the change in bullet profile as opposed to the sizer. I do get some leading or wash, depending on the load, but the accuracy is much improved. I think the lube is still a part of the leading as it's homemade & he's experimenting with it.

You found a boolit that fits and used balanced load with it. Fit is #1, I'd say good design is #2, # is the load. 2 and 3 can sometimes reverse and with some guns at some pressures alloy comes in for #2. Take that same boolit and size it down and additional .002 and see what happens. If you take a "good" design and use a good alloy but have poor fit you'll get bigger groups and more leading.

[Slinger]

Slinger, Why would you need to harden your CB's (via oven or water-dropping) if you don't intend to exceed ~1,000fps? If you're getting leading at that speed (chronographed/verified?), I'd look at bullet fit (the diameters you're sizing to for each gun) first and lube second. Btw, Ken Mollohan (Molly on this board) has an article in the current Fouling Shot magazine (CBA) that questions the idea of bullet obturation. In short, except for swaged .22cal. rimfire bullets (very soft Pb), he didn't find much evidence of it.

The way I wrote my respones(s) is misleading. I run 750 or so in the 38 Sp., 1100fps to 1400 fps+ in the 357 Mag, 800 fps in the 45ACP, top velocity in the .44 Mag with a 240 gr. (acutal velocity eludes me at present) & 1000 fps or less in the 45 Colt. As far as Molly's report goes- he might be right, who knows? If so, then everyone who has ever done anything with CBs & obturation has been wrong. I 'm not experienced enough in cast bullets to refute obturation.

[Slinger]

Bret4207- As for fit, if you mean diameter of the slug to the bore, the SWC slugs were sized .358 as well, but wouldn't shoot anywhere near as accurately as the TFPs. I used the same powder/charge with all the profiles & slugs diameters. .357 dia. was very inaccurate, if i'm not mistaken. Would have to go back into notes to be sure.

[Bret4207]

Okay Slinger, now I see where you're going. .358 is minimal for any 38/357. It works best in older tight bored Colts. In my Smiffs I use .360 and wouldn't be afraid to go larger in some. IMO in a Smith 38 or 357 I'd say start with at least a .359 diameter boolit and go fatter if you don't get good accuracy. I've not much experience with Ruger 38 or 357s. I understand some exhibit a slight choke in the barrel/frame junction that sometimes needs opening.

Another thing to consider is the form of the SWC you were using. Some are a little weak in the front band area, other have much more substantial design characteristics that tend to leave it shooting good in many guns. There's also the issue of different alloys. Just because you send a boolit through a .358 die doesn't mean you ended up with a .358 diameter boolit. Some alloys tend "spring back" a tiny amount, others don't at all it seems. Then you have the problem of dies marked .358 for instance, being larger or smaller than marked and there's the old Lyman dies that had the nasty habit of actually cutting the boolit rather than sizing and an off center TP left you with a lopsided boolit.

Fit refers to the fit of the boolit in the chamber, and more importantly in the barrel. There are guys here who can explain this better than I, but basically you want, in a revolver, a boolit that fills the chamber and will enter into the throat straight. When the boolit enters the chamber throat straight it gives it the best chance of entering the forcing cone straight too. Once the boolit is within the forcing cone and barrel, straight as a string we hope, then the boolit has to fill the barrel as tightly as possible with out causing undue pressure or mutilating the boolit. This gives the boolit the maximum chance to follow the rifling and seal the bore against the gases. A boolit .001 too small may allow gases to pass the base and erode the alloy causing leading. We believe most leading is caused by gases eroding the boolit, not from sheer friction of boolit on barrel steel. That tends to happens further up the barrel in long barreled pistols and more usually in rifles. This is usually attributed to lube failure and is often remedied by a change in lubes or additional lube. The idea of the heat of the burning powder "melting" the boolit just doesn't make sense, so I at least discount that idea.

So, if you follow this so far I'm sure you see why we talk about fit so much here. Over the past 10 years or so that seems to be about the biggest thing we've come to realize, that fit is King with cast. Generally the idea is to use as large a boolit as your cylinder chambers will accept, barring your owning a freak with undersize throats or barrel. Many members here slug their barrels and ream their cylinders or throats to fit the boolit they want to use, or to fit their ideas of how they should fit. Different alloys will give differing sizes when they drop from the mould, differing results when shot too. Many of us find plain old wheel weight alloy, often with a bit tin added, work entirely satisfactorily with most handguns loads. Of course a gas check helps once you start upping the pressure/speed, but even a gas checked boolit that is too small or of the wrong alloy can lead in some load/gun combination's.

If I followed you right the boolits you had success with weren't sized with the same machine as the others. It would be interesting to see if they're any larger or of different alloy than you used originally. If they aren't, then I would guess the design made up for something that was lacking in the others, a broader shoulder, a fatter dimension somewhere or a change in the bearing surface that took your unsuccessful loads and turned them into a balanced load with a boolit that fit.

[Slinger]

Bret4207- Thanks for the explanations- I see where you're coming from now. Perhaps that's why the TFP is shooting more accurately....it's profile is more receptive to hitting the forcing cones straight or more easily aligns itself thru it's gentle taper/profile as opposed to the bluntness of the SWC??? My bores in both guns are .357" The Smith Model 14 throats are .3565- .357, the Gp100 throats are .357- 3575" The Gp100 is more accurate than the Model 14. The model 14 will shoot the TFP 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" groups @ 25 yards with a max load of 4.5 gr. 7625. The GP100 will shoot the same slug 1-1/8"- 1-5/8" groups at velocities between 1150 fps to 1400+ fps. The Model 14 will shoot SWAGED 148 gr. HBWC into 1" groups at 25 yds. The cast boolits miked @ .358"- no spring back.

[mikenbarb]

If you want a real good lube for those 38's, Talk to Bullshop and get some of his Speed Green lube. Its great stuff! I switched all my boolits over to it with MUCH better results. Im using homemade Lyman #2 alloy for everything I cast.

[Bret4207]

Bret4207- Thanks for the explanations- I see where you're coming from now. Perhaps that's why the TFP is shooting more accurately....it's profile is more receptive to hitting the forcing cones straight or more easily aligns itself thru it's gentle taper/profile as opposed to the bluntness of the SWC??? My bores in both guns are .357" The Smith Model 14 throats are .3565- .357, the Gp100 throats are .357- 3575" The Gp100 is more accurate than the Model 14. The model 14 will shoot the TFP 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" groups @ 25 yards with a max load of 4.5 gr. 7625. The GP100 will shoot the same slug 1-1/8"- 1-5/8" groups at velocities between 1150 fps to 1400+ fps. The Model 14 will shoot SWAGED 148 gr. HBWC into 1" groups at 25 yds. The cast boolits miked @ .358"- no spring back.

If it were me I would try boolits in the .359-.360 area. There's nothing wrong with sticking with what you have, but sooner of later your buddy isn't going to be there to provide boolits for you. If your 14 throats are truly a trifle smaller than the barrel then you'll have a challenge with any boolit, and harder will make it worse. The theory as to why the dead soft swaged boolits shoot fine is that the soft lead expands slightly, or obturates, from the gas pressures. The hollow base is also supposed to expand a bit and help seal the bore. It seems to be working in your gun. I also note your using SR7625. You and I must be about the only people using it, although my use is limited to the 32 S+W and 32 S+W Long. You could try something along the lines of Unique or another powder and see if that helps. Different burn rates, different pressure curve, different results- you get the drift.

At this point I think you've got a pretty fair idea where you're going. There are several good 38/357 designs out here to play with and dozens of loads to try. All I can say is fit the boolit to the gun, it works every time.:drinks:

[Slinger]

Bret4207- You're right about my buddy not being there.....that's why I'm getting back into casting. And, believe me I fully understand everything you've said about the slugs, guns, loads. I started using 7625 in handgun loads after having about 20 pounds leftover from trapshooting. Decided to work up a few loads with cast boolits in the handguns and found it worked well for what I wanted out of it. I will not use any powder in volume loading of handgun cartridges that won't meter consistently in a powder measure/thrower. I usually load off a progressive. I've never had alot of luck with Unique...always found another ball type powder or smaller granuled powder that worked better. Although it does work well in my 45 Colt with a RCBS 255 SWC. I also use 4756 in handguns, although not as much as 7625, Along with 231, Titegroup (which is o.k, but it won't deliver the accuracy that 231 or 7625 will in my guns), HS6, H-110, 296, H-4227 & some others.
I would think that .359-.360" diameter would be as cast in alot of moulds wouldn't it? I used a bunch of different loads/powders in the Model 14. 7625 did the best, with 4756 2nd & 231 3rd.
Thanks for all your help!!!

[Bret4207]

.359 and .360 sizer dies are readily available, I think I even have a .361 somewhere. Or you can lap out a Lee push through to whatever size you want. I have several boolits that when sized all the dies is doing is supplying lube, not sizing is done and they shoot far better than sized. That's just my experience. Some guys won;t buy the idea. To each their own.