I cast my first batch yesterday - how wrinkled is too wrinkled

[Ugly Dwarf]

I'll start by saying that it went easier (and better) than I'd feared my first session would go, thanks in large part to the reading I've been doing here I'm sure. Thanks All!!!

The rain forcasted for yesterday morning never showed up, so I decided it was time to try out my new Lee Pro 4-20 pot and 6 cavity mold (TL358-158-SWC).

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/uglydwarf/Cast%20Boolits%20Pix/CastingBenchSetup-Small.jpg

I decided to try both air cooling (dropped into a towel) and water quenching (dropped into a bucket with 6-10" of water. I've been reading in another post tonight about the dangers of splashes reaching the pot or mold, but I got lucky. I will be moving the drop bucket further away next time.

I started getting boolits that looked good (at a glance) once the mold warmed up - I got side tracked during the setup and forgot to put the mold on top of the pot to pre-heat, so I had to heat it up by pouring partials for a little bit. When I took a break to add more ingots to the pot, I took a look and found many of the boolits were noticably wrinkled. It seemed that the most recent ones looked the best, so kept at it and they kept getting better.

After cleaning up and going to dinner at a friends, I came back last night to take a closer look at what I had. I found I had about 250 "Good" ones and perhaps another 100 "wrinkled rejects". Then I realized that many of my "Good" ones still had imperfections and that I really didn't know if they were good to go.

I weighed 10 random boolits from the "Good" pile tonight and found none under 158gr and none were over 161. I will note that I tumble lubed these last night, sized this afternoon and tumble lubed again, so that may be a factor in the weight variation.

Please take a look at these and help me understand what I should keep and what I should remelt.

These are some of the rejects. Obviously, they're not pretty, but I wonder if they might still be 'good enough for plinking'.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/uglydwarf/Cast%20Boolits%20Pix/CloseupRejects-Small.jpg

Theses are three of the ugliest ones that I have been planning to keep and shoot.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/uglydwarf/Cast%20Boolits%20Pix/UgliestKeepers-Small.jpg

When looking at these last ones, know that I intentionally took pictures of the 'worst' of each of these boolits. For the keepers, this means the other sides were filled in well and looked very uniform. Some have wrinkles in the nose only, others have little blemishes in the grooves. I'm not sure what impact any of this will have.

My initial thoughts on why they're not "Perfect" are:


I smelted some of my WW before I'd read much about zinc and before I'd gotten a thermometer to keep my temp low enough to be safe. It's possible that some of my ingots had zinc in them and I understand that can play havic with mold fill out.
I understand that tin helps with mold fill out. While WW have 'some' tin in them, they will often benefit from adding more.
I was running the pot in the 650-700 degree range for the most part. Last night and today I have been reading that many people tend to cast in the 750 range.

Any or all of these might be a factor. Perhaps none of them were really to blame and I just needed to work slower and keep the mold hotter.

I'm hoping to give it another go in the next week or two, and would love to get some honset feedback on how those bullets look. Are my "ugly keepers" good to go, or are even those destined for remelting? Are my rejects good enough for punching paper at the 25 yard line?

Thanks for your help.

Dwarf

[Bret4207]

First off, did you clean the mould well? The latest Lee mould users report the cutting lube Lee is using tends to require serious cleaning, like boiling in soapy water for 1/2 hour. I've never had that issue, just used brake cleaner, followed by ether- AWAY FROM ANY FLAMES/SPARKS!!!

Beyond that you need more heat. The rough surface in the grooves in the last pic might be a contaminant or just the mould breaking in. I like a hot mould, in addition to turning up the heat you need to cast fast enough to keep the mould hot. I think a little more fluxing and heat will help.

You're starting off with a 6 banger?! I would have recommended a single or 2 cav, but you look like you're off to a good start. Those boolits may well shoot fine for plinking. Cosmetic blemishes and small wrinkles (define small, to each their own) often shoot as good as the purty ones. When you get into larger wrinkles then the boolits balance is more affected and bad things happen.

I'd say you're doing rather well. Clean the mould, turn up the heat a bit and cast a little faster. It should come together shortly.

[copdills]

clean the mold with dish wash and toothbrush then boil it for about 15 min heat around 725-750 and you should be good to go , it also helps if you have a hotplate to heat up the mold on it before you start casting , I put mine on the hotplate about 3/4 to full blast on the temp the same time I turn on my melter and I have the Lee pro 4-20 also , when the lead is ready the mold is too
Good Luck copdills

[Boerrancher]

+1 for what Bret said. I will add that I keep a few ugly boolits sized, lubed and ready to load, but I keep them separate and marked form my other boolits. These are the ones I load when I want a very light load for my kids to shoot. I mainly use them to teach proper shooting techniques and familiarization. They don't have to shoot good, just make a bit of noise and punch a hole in a piece of paper. The kids are learning and I am not using a good boolit that I will hunt with to teach them.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[imashooter2]

The best thing about casting is you can melt your mistakes and try again. Any visible defect goes back in the pot here.

Bret has described the path to improvement.

[44man]

Heat, need more heat! Those big molds have to be kept hot and EVEN without a hot spot at one cavity. That might be what is causing the frosty, unfilled spots on a few boolits. I see no indication of zinc. It could also be caused by stuff boiling out of the aluminum at that spot.
That is a hard way to learn casting, using a 6 cavity.
Put the water bucket on the floor, not on the bench. I use a low stool to get it just off the floor.
I cast in the garage on my work bench, no wind currents to screw up mold blocks.
I ladle cast and don't like the big molds. I like to use two, two cavity molds at the same time, most times different boolits. I hate bottom pouring! [smilie=1:

[docone31]

You need more heat, and more casting time in the mold itself.
Every Lee Mold I get does that.
I have had some stubborn ones. Those I cast a 1/4-20 as a sprue, remove the assembly, smear some fine lapping compound on them, turn them, and cast away.
More heat!

[opentop]

Did you smoke the cavities? My lee molds won't start dropping good boolits until I smoke the cavities.

[mikenbarb]

Definatly clean the mold good and smoke the cavities because it will make a big difference with the quality of the boolits with Lee molds. Follow their directions to a T or it wont cast to its full potential. And use a good casting flux as often as needed to make them fill out better and keep the alloy mixed well. Now your hooked!:D

[Ugly Dwarf]

Thanks all. I'll start some load work up with the "good" ones and remelt the rejects.

To answer a few questions posed...

I cleaned the mold prior to using with mineral spirits and cotton balls. (I'll have to get some starting fluid / etjher, but I've got plenty of brake cleaner for the next time) Once dried, I smoked the cavities with wood matches (there was just enough wind to make it a pain to keep the matches lit long enough).

I will run the pot hotter and pre-heat the mold better next time. I will also be sure to put my quench bucket someplace off the table and away from the furnace. I'll also plan to pre-heat my 'refill lead' on my turkey fryer, since every time I'd drop an ingot in to replenish the melt, I'd freeze the bottom poor spout.

I'm guessing I was casting fast enough (I was afraid I might be going too fast at times). I didn't time myself, but I believe I was getting three fills (18 boolits) per minute when I got into a groove.

i didn't have any problems dropping bullets from the mold. Usually they dropped when I opened and gave a small shake, occasionally (perhaps 1 out of 12 boolits) it would take a slight open handed slap on the bottom of the mold from my gloved hand.

Is, there anyone out there with a hardness tester willing to do a test on one of my air cooled and one of my water dropped?

Thanks again for all the help and feedback,

Dwarf

[JFriis]

Is, there anyone out there with a hardness tester willing to do a test on one of my air cooled and one of my water dropped?

Thanks again for all the help and feedback,

Dwarf

You bet.

I have a Lee tester I can test them on for you.

PM sent.

[DLCTEX]

I'd say that there is no zinc in your alloy judging by the color of the boolits. IME zinc in the alloy will produce boolits the color of sterling silver ( or whiter than WW boolits). Also, a small amount of Zinc will float higher in the melt and will not be a problem until the level in the pot gets low.

[sqlbullet]

How wrinkly is too wrinkly seems to depend on how many bullets have wrinkles out of a given session. If I have a bunch of really pretty ones, I reject anything with a wrinkle. Other times I have been known to tolerate some wrinkles pretty nifty wrinkles so I felt productive.

I would agree, you need more heat in the mold. I cleaned my Lee molds with just a swipe or two of alcohol. One of them got smoked, the other didn't. The real key seems to be a hot mold. If my mold is hot, I get well formed wrinkle free bullets with sharp shoulders.

[KYCaster]

It looks to me like Mineral Spirits is the culprit, it doesn't evaporate completely. (same thing with some brake cleaners). I use MEK (PVC pipe primer). A good brake cleaner or alcohol also work well. Use a brush and enough solvent to get the cutting oil out of the nooks and crannies and then flush it away.

Check out "Leementing" in the "Molds, Maintenance and Design" forum, it tells you everything you need to know to get your Lee mold working well.

Jerry

[Ugly Dwarf]

How wrinkly is too wrinkly seems to depend on how many bullets have wrinkles out of a given session. If I have a bunch of really pretty ones, I reject anything with a wrinkle. Other times I have been known to tolerate some wrinkles pretty nifty wrinkles so I felt productive.

I can identify with that.

I started sorting, planning to keep 'only the perfect ones'... until I saw how few that left me. My criteria got a little looser and I'm sure my 'reject bucket' has some that I would have accepted by the time I was done sorting.

"Good" is a very subjective word, isn't it.

[Ugly Dwarf]

It looks to me like Mineral Spirits is the culprit, it doesn't evaporate completely. (same thing with some brake cleaners). I use MEK (PVC pipe primer). A good brake cleaner or alcohol also work well. Use a brush and enough solvent to get the cutting oil out of the nooks and crannies and then flush it away.

Check out "Leementing" in the "Molds, Maintenance and Design" forum, it tells you everything you need to know to get your Lee mold working well.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry.

I'll check out that thread. I've heard the term "leementing" here, but didn't see the link in the 'Casting Equipment" forum. I didn't think to look in the Mold Maint & Design forum, though that makes more sense now that I think about it.

I had wondered about the evaporation of the MS after cleaning the mold. I know from using it to clean other things that it can take a while to dry, but I guess I'd assumed the 'smoking' process (stuffing a lit match into the cavities) would burn it off (and we all know what happens when you assume).

I'll swing by ACE and pick up some MEK on my way home tonight.

Dwarf

[GLL]

I give my moulds a 15 minute scrub in very hot water with DAWN plus an air jet in soapy water then rinse with acetone.

Run the 6-cavity LEE moulds as hot as possible before frosting gets too heavy. I also add 2% tin to WW when I cast any mould which has intricate grooves or bands like the mould you illustrate!

LEE moulds do seem to like a thin carbon smoking but each individual mould has a mind of its own.

So far so good ! :)

Jerry

[Hurricane]

Shoot at least some of them to test what, if any, effect the wrinkles have. Wrinkles usually mean the mold was not hot enough yet. I would turn up the heat and lay the mold on top of the melting pot while it was melting the lead. When the lead is ready the mold will be ready also. For plinking the wrinkles will not be a problem. The important thing is that the base of the bullet is fully filled out and has no defects. The bottom of the bullet is more important to accuracy than any other part. Tests have proven that a damaged bullet tip, even smashed or cut off tips, had little or no effect on accuracy as long as the base of the bullet was undamaged. They also proved that even a small damage to the base of the bullet seriously degrades accuracy. You are doing good, enjoy casting and always use heavy gloves, eye protection, and shoes when you are working with melted lead. Preheat your casting ladle before putting it in the melted lead. You can just put the ladle in the pot as the lead melts. A cold ladle put into hot lead can cause lead to splash out of the pot.

[Bret4207]

It looks to me like Mineral Spirits is the culprit, it doesn't evaporate completely. (same thing with some brake cleaners). I use MEK (PVC pipe primer). A good brake cleaner or alcohol also work well. Use a brush and enough solvent to get the cutting oil out of the nooks and crannies and then flush it away.

Check out "Leementing" in the "Molds, Maintenance and Design" forum, it tells you everything you need to know to get your Lee mold working well.

Jerry

Ah, is this the same methyl ethyl ketone (sp?) of my youth? The dangerous stuff that's supposed to give you cancer in 2 seconds flat? I assume the stupid purlple stuff I accidentally used once, ONCE!:twisted: (stained my brand new floor!!!:twisted:), isn't the right stuff?

[KYCaster]

Ah, is this the same methyl ethyl ketone (sp?) of my youth? The dangerous stuff that's supposed to give you cancer in 2 seconds flat? I assume the stupid purlple stuff I accidentally used once, ONCE!:twisted: (stained my brand new floor!!!:twisted:), isn't the right stuff?



Yeah, Bret, same stuff. But don't worry about that cancer thing...somethin's gonna get ya sooner or later anyway. [smilie=1:

Use the clear stuff to clean the molds, that purple die is just in there so its easier for the wife to see that spot on the floor.

Jerry


Oh, BTW, another hint for Dwarf...some of the 6 cav Lee's seem to like a "break in run". If it wants to be contrary, set it aside and let it cool off then try it again. It often works much better then.

[mto7464]

GET OUT OF THE KIDS PLAY AREA. I find sprue all over the place in my shop and splatter . Kids like to pick up shiney stuff and play with it.

[sqlbullet]

Make sure everyone in the house is getting a good vitamin-C supplement too. Vitamin-C will help block absorption.

I have 6 kids, and constantly worry about the possible effects of my hobby. I contain it to the garage, sweep after every session, etc. But, just this morning, I found a tiny splatter on my bedroom floor that had probably ridden into the house on the cuff of my jeans.

[TAWILDCATT]

for what your doing water cooling may make them to hard.when you get over 2000fts then you harden them.I shoot WW and dont harden.you have enuf to learn with out adding another action .and if you shoot pistol like your doing some wrinkles won't matter,at this stage.even rifle bullets that have flaws will shoot up to 100 yds.
I like LEEs 6 cavity but I use a stone on faces and deburr all edges with fine file.
:coffeecom [smilie=1:
take iron tablet and zinc tablet if you have raised level of lead.
dont smoke ,dont eat and dont drink and wash your hands after.

[Cloudpeak]

I no longer water drop my 45 and 9mm bullets as I shoot mid-range loads. But, if you are going to do so, I'd recommend that you take an old bath towel, cut a slit in it and attach it to the top of your bucket with a bungie cord. I used to put the bottom part of the towel in the water so it was wet and drop away. This will keep water from splashing on you and your mold.

Cloudpeak

[Ugly Dwarf]

GET OUT OF THE KIDS PLAY AREA. I find sprue all over the place in my shop and splatter . Kids like to pick up shiney stuff and play with it.

Noted and agreed. I've moved the production system into the garage.

For what it's worth, I have been pretty good about cleaning up after a session of smelting or casting. This has been based on the kids playing out there, and also to keep my wife from coming to dislike my new hobby.

As I learned with my home brewing, if I clean up after myself, I don't get the evil eye when I mention I'm going to do it again.