Dance with the one you brought

[rintinglen]

Now, one of my pet peeves, one that always makes my eyes roll, is the wide spread notion that as long as you, and your gun, are reasonably accurate at short range, you are good to go. “There’s no need for me to work at anything more than 21 feet, my (fill in the blank: snubbie, compact, micro etc.), will work to get him off me.” As if we get to choose where and when we will be forced to defend ourselves. It may well be that most shootings take place inside of 7 yards, but consider. It is just over 50 yards from my front porch to the street. If I am sitting out there drinking a cool ice tea and some yahoo decides to conduct a drive by, mistaking my house for somebody else’s, my choice of response is limited to what’s in my holster. I’m too old and slow to run. Likewise, suppose the robber initially confronts you at double arm’s length, but when you whip out your roscoe, he runs across the street, then turns and starts shooting. Again, if you are going to shoot back, what you have is what you’ll use. Consequently, it behooves us to at least occasionally stretch our range, if for no other reason than to see where our gun hits. (More about that in a minute).

Consequently, I set an ANT-4, law enforcement target up at the 50 meter line at our gun club, and I proceeded to run a few rounds down range with my S&W 640. My normal defense load in this gun is the factory Remington 125 grain +p, JHP that was the LAPD issue round for years. I have used it before for qualification and know that my 640 shoots pretty close to center with that, albeit about 4 inches low at 25 yards. But I only have a partial box left, and no way of telling when or if I can get more, so I am loath to expend a bunch of what little I have left in an experiment that might be useless. So I got some 148 grain wad cutter ammo that I had loaded and which I have plenty of, and decided to use that.

Well, I figured it would hit little higher than my JHP +p, but my fuzzy recollection of PPC sight adjustments in years gone by made me aim just at the bottom of the neck on Mr. Bad Guy Target and I carefully fired 5 rounds DA two-handed standing. Imagine my chagrin when all five hit High above my POA by about 6 inches, and left by 10. One was completely off the target. You can see the 4 shots that found paper marked by black pasters. If I had been shooting for reals, I’d have missed him completely.

However, with that information, I proceeded to fire 15 shots, 3 cylinders worth. 14 would have found flesh, though only about 9 would have inflicted seriously dangerous wounds. One would have missed him over his left shoulder. I walked away from this experiment convinced that my primary carry guns need to be tested by me to assure that I can hit something at distance, and to make certain that they hit somewhere close to point of aim with the ammo I am carrying.

My next project after this is to find my 125 grain mold and see if I can develop a practice load that approximates my carry load for this gun.


301645

My Smith 640 38 Special
301647
Mr. Bad Guy.

[AnthonyB]

I applaud your idea of stretching the range with your carry revolver. I routinely shoot my carry pistols out to 100 yards at man sized steel targets and connect often enough to surprise many. That said, if anyone shot at me with a handgun from 50+ yards I would be moving to a rifle instead of shooting back.
Tony

[AnthonyB]

And all of your shots would have convinced the bad guy he had somewhere else to be at that particular moment.

[Daekar]

This is why I insist on training with the load I will carry (so invest in a mold good enough to carry) and stick with a gun with adjustable sights. There is no way that I am going to be able to gracefully judge Kentucky windage when under stress.

[dverna]

Training and practice are important.

I am guilty of not shooting my carry pistols past 15 yards.

[country gent]

I occasionally hunt wood chucks with my carry gun. I normally practice at 25 yds with my sw 640. the sig 238 and my others.

[Kosh75287]

I practice out to 75 yards (.45 ACP & 9mm), not because I expect to ever have to engage someone at range, but because it tends to make me better and faster at shorter ranges. Not sure what's going on, there, but I can attest to the results. I can also sure tell a difference in marksmanship when I DO NOT practice at longer ranges.
Perhaps in my younger days, I could have kept 14/15 rounds on a torso at 50 yards with a 2" snubby, but no longer. Reading this thread makes me want to try it again, though!

[shooting on a shoestring]

Rintinglen, Amen!
And good shooting too.

I think 50 yards is entirely within the realm of reality. Just count 60 steps (roughly 50 yards for an average man) next time you’re in Walmart, a grocery store, a restaurant, a parking lot or wherever you go.

If you have to join a gunfight in progress in one of those places, you’ll need to quickly hit the bad guy(s) and miss the others. That’s not a time to wonder if you can hit.

[stubshaft]

Rintinglen, Amen!
And good shooting too.

Just count 17 steps (roughly 50 yards for an average man).

The average length of a man's pace or step is 30". You would need much more than 17 steps.

[Catshooter]

I agree. I sight all my fighting pistols in at 50 yards for this very reason.

"moving to a rifle." IF you can. If.

Another point of reality that most miss is shooting their carry piece without ear pro. In a fight you probably won't be wearing any and it's good to know what it's like. Especially for those who carry short .357s with mag ammo. I tried that once and damn near dropped the gun. I would have been out of the fight right there. The new .30 Super Carry will be worse.

[charlie b]

Yes the muzzle blast is bad. If you haven't fired your gun without hearing protection, you need to, at least once.

Then try a .357 at night. We did that one time just to see what it was like. At least I know the bad guy will be blind for a few seconds.......and I have to remember to close one eye :)

[Bmi48219]

Yes the muzzle blast is bad. If you haven't fired your gun without hearing protection, you need to, at least once…..

I did that by accident a couple days ago. 90 degrees and the range was empty. Decided I didn’t need muffs to walk down range, set up my target and return to the bench. Forgot about them as took careful aim and touched off a shot, out of a 7mm mag!
Fortunately I don’t think I suffered much long term hearing loss. I’ve been hard of hearing for a long time.

As far as the thread subject, I can’t remember the last time I shot a pistol beyond 25 yards. It may not be a major concern during a SD incident but in some places a DA would question whether you were in mortal danger from an assailant 30 yards away. Just saying.

[M-Tecs]

I've been handgun hunting and competitive shooting for a very long time. Most people sell handgun capability way too short IMHO.

My current carry gun is a Sig 365XL with a Holosun 507K X2 red dot on it. I have it sighted for 50 yards. Yes, it's a micro compact but the trigger is very good for a striker fired gun and it shoots very well. The 9mm only has 2 inches drop at 50 yards. No, it's not a match 1911 but it groups well at 50 yard and particularly well fired when from a rest.

As the number of mass shootings go up the traditional SD range ideas are becoming somewhat dated. On the other hand, if I go really small like my early Ruger LCP 380 it has very limited accuracy and range. It doesn't shoot to POI, it has a lossy trigger & sights and the gun itself is not very accurate. Even for normal SD much past 30 feet becomes problematic for shooter/gun accuracy combination.

The LCP had seen a lot of carry primarily since it's so compact. Nowadays 99% of my carry is with then the Sig 365XL or something larger.

I changed my carry habits and requirements greatly after having to go into the riot areas during and after the 2020 Mpls riots. I have a couple of 5 shot S&W and Ruger revolvers I shoot well that I liked to carry. They have not been used for carry since dealing with the riots. When I carried the revolvers five in the cylinder and 5 in a speed strip seemed like enough. With the 365 I have 12 plus one in the gun and two 15 rounders.

[Mk42gunner]

One other thing that makes sense to me is to practice your weak hand shooting.

Robert

[ABJ]

Shooting on a shoestring took the words right out of my mouth. Dept. store isles can easily be over 40 yds. and parking lots as well. I will have to admit that a 50 yd shot with my S&W Shield is not pretty. I think I will invest in some full size bad guy targets this weekend and try again.
But, If I were inclined to carry a 3 or 4 inch revolver my 44 special guns are surprisingly accurate at 50. I may have to look into a 3 inch bulldog. I am so used-to carrying the small shield a revolver might take some getting used to.
I think we should keep the thread going, since this is the July 4th weekend, and report back next wk on how we do at 50yds. Like M-Tecs said most of us are not carrying 1911's.
Tony

[Wag]

Count me as one who agrees with the need to practice at long ranges. Fifty yards for a hand gun is definitely "long range!"

Take into consideration, though, other elements of a shoot (at the risk of being Captain Obvious):

- High adrenaline. It's going to mess up your shooting, even at close range.
- Moving target. If you can get to a range that has target stand which will move the target around, it will help.
- Target that shoots back. Can't practice this in real life, of course, but do everything else you can to train, of course.
- Hearing impairment. That first shot is going to make it tough to hear, including any law enforcement commands to you.
- Vision. That fireball can be intense!

Of course, it all applies to long and short range.

Frankly, having to shoot someone who's shooting at me is not something I want to do and I doubt I'll ever be fully trained or ready to do so.

--Wag--

[Wag]

One of the best stories out there of a long-range shot: https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-cops-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman


“For a guy to keep his composure and holding two horses with one hand and taking a one-hand shot with the other hand, it says a lot about the training and professionalism of our police department,” Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said to the Austin American-Statesman.

--Wag--

[FISH4BUGS]

How about a Ruger old model 3 screw 7 1/2 44 mag at 200 yards from a rest with iron sights at a 24" round steel?
On a good day, i hit 2 out of 6. On an average day I hit 1 out of 6.
They are ALL close enough to keep someone's head down!
Don't sell your handguns short!

[Thumbcocker]

How about an old model 3 screw 7 1/2 44 mag at 200 yards from a rest with iron sights at a 24" round steel?
On a good day, i hit 2 out of 6. On an average day I hit 1 out of 6.
They are ALL close enough to keep someone's head down!
Don't sell your handguns short!

I have been able to break standard clay birds at 100 yards standing 2 handed and gallon jugs at 200 from seated backrest with a Bisley Hunter model. 44 and full snort loads. But I am weird and dry fire almost every day.

Handguns are vastly underrated. Ross Seyfried wrote about hitting rabbit size critters in excess of 100 yards with a 2.5" model 66 and I believe him.

[sharps4590]

I don't remember the last time I shot a handgun at less than 25 yards.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Everything depends on the circumstances, does it not? I think 50 yds. brings up the "flight or fight" question. Some, of course, due to physical impairment are unable to successfully flee. But given that ability, even if it's to depart the area of the threat to a safer location at a fast limp might be the better choice when explaining what happened (or didn't happen) to police or a jury. Given the ability to find cover, and not wearing a badge, I always thought 50 yds. was an optional limit of defense or flight, whereas the 15 yd. possible successful knife attack distance leaves no option but defense. I think 50 yd. gunfights among civilians are rare, and I'd bet that most gangstas' marksmanship isn't very good at that distance. Well, just some thoughts.......

DG

[ABJ]

Super short range is something we practice every summer. I'm talking snake distance. We just take a woods walk and find a stick about the size of a snake. It is not something the folks I shoot with can do without practice on the first shot. Two to three feet in front of you on the ground.
Carry guns are 15 yds to 25 yds unless the shooter is having problems. Then we go to around 10 yds give or take and work out the problems and start moving back. However this thread being about carry guns at 50 yds is very different than shooting full size handguns at said distance. As Sharps4590 indicated, when we are playing with single actions, and larger double actions with adj. sights, most of our shooting is done between 50 and 100 yds. Not all that hard to do with bigger handguns once you practice a little. I'll let everyone know on Tuesday how I do with my shield and Glock 43. The only other short barrels I have is a model 15 snub, model 31 in 32 long(not a carry option for me) and plenty of 4,5,6.5, and 7.5's but also not everyday carry.
Tony

[dverna]

I've been handgun hunting and competitive shooting for a very long time. Most people sell handgun capability way too short IMHO.

My current carry gun is a Sig 365XL with a Holosun 507K X2 red dot on it. I have it sighted for 50 yards. Yes, it's a micro compact but the trigger is very good for a striker fired gun and it shoots very well. The 9mm only has 2 inches drop at 50 yards. No, it's not a match 1911 but it groups well at 50 yard and particularly well fired when from a rest.

As the number of mass shootings go up the traditional SD range ideas are becoming somewhat dated. On the other hand, if I go really small like my early Ruger LCP 380 it has very limited accuracy and range. It doesn't shoot to POI, it has a lossy trigger & sights and the gun itself is not very accurate. Even for normal SD much past 30 feet becomes problematic for shooter/gun accuracy combination.

The LCP had seen a lot of carry primarily since it's so compact. Nowadays 99% of my carry is with then the Sig 365XL or something larger.

I changed my carry habits and requirements greatly after having to go into the riot areas during and after the 2020 Mpls riots. I have a couple of 5 shot S&W and Ruger revolvers I shoot well that I liked to carry. They have not been used for carry since dealing with the riots. When I carried the revolvers five in the cylinder and 5 in a speed strip seemed like enough. With the 365 I have 12 plus one in the gun and two 15 rounders.

Good post. I went from 1911's to plastic guns for the same reasons.

Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.

As to addressing a threat, DG made some good points. In fact, if I was in a store and a lunatic started shooting, I am not sure I would engage unless I and loved ones were threatened. Not sure I want to go looking for a gun fight. Here is my thinking on it. First, if the BG gets a lucky shot I am out of the battle and maybe dead. Second, I am not leaving my loved ones in case there is more than one shooter, my responsibility is to protect them. Third, even a "good shoot" can get dicey legally. Fourth, if there is another armed "hero" how does he know I am not the threat or a second lunatic when he sees me with gun drawn and moving?

[ABJ]

Everything depends on the circumstances, does it not? I think 50 yds. brings up the "flight or fight" question. Some, of course, due to physical impairment are unable to successfully flee. But given that ability, even if it's to depart the area of the threat to a safer location at a fast limp might be the better choice when explaining what happened (or didn't happen) to police or a jury. Given the ability to find cover, and not wearing a badge, I always thought 50 yds. was an optional limit of defense or flight, whereas the 15 yd. possible successful knife attack distance leaves no option but defense. I think 50 yd. gunfights among civilians are rare, and I'd bet that most gangstas' marksmanship isn't very good at that distance. Well, just some thoughts.......

DG

For the most part I agree, I tell my grown kids and spouses that their carry weapons are for defense of you and yours, and flee if possible and if not hide and be ready to do what they have to. What they are not is offensive. A seven shot single stack 9mm may not be the best possible answer to run towards gunfire with.
Even still the OP's description of a possible 50 yd situation is not out of the realm of possibility so it wouldn't hurt to find out through practice if you and your gun are capable of accurate shots at that distance. If not that will dictate what you should do if ever put there.
As far as the bad guys level of accuracy, I agree not that good most times, but.... when listing to the news it's the bad guys wild shots that usually wind hurting or killing an innocent bystander.
Tony

[rintinglen]

I did that by accident a couple days ago. 90 degrees and the range was empty. Decided I didn’t need muffs to walk down range, set up my target and return to the bench. Forgot about them as took careful aim and touched off a shot, out of a 7mm mag!
Fortunately I don’t think I suffered much long term hearing loss. I’ve been hard of hearing for a long time.

As far as the thread subject, I can’t remember the last time I shot a pistol beyond 25 yards. It may not be a major concern during a SD incident but in some places a DA would question whether you were in mortal danger from an assailant 30 yards away. Just saying.

Just to point out, if it were to be an issue at law, there are several videos showing people shooting handguns at ranges longer than 50 yards and scoring hits. Look 'em up and look at them now, so they will be admissible as to establishing the reasonableness of your behavior based on prior knowledge. Jerry Miculek has one where he hits a 200 yard target with a j-frame smith. Hickock 45 has many of him shooting and hitting a gong at 80 yards.

But it would be very hard to justify deadly force against an individual not armed with a projectile weapon at distances greater than 30 feet. An exception might be if you saw your child, spouse, servant, master, parent or other person whom you had a legal right to protect being assaulted at a greater distance by someone armed with a knife, or potentially lethal impact weapon and you could establish that only by shooting the individual could you stop the attack. But that would be roughly the opposite of the luck involved in winning the lottery!

[M-Tecs]

All handguns are not equal and all handgun shooters are not equal. My have scoped Contenders and XP-100 that 300-yard prairie dogs are easy from a rest. What you have for equipment and what your abilities are determines realities distances. If you think 21 feet is a long way and that is how you practice chances of ever improving is slim.



Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.



With my current carry Sig 365XL and red dot I can somewhat better consistently.

In the late 70's I shot with the North American PPC champions. What they could do at 50 yards double action was my first eye opener as to handgun capability in skilled hands.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

:D We'll just hope that those bag guys keep holding their Glocks sideways and never figure out what the sights are for!

DG

[MarkP]

Good post. I went from 1911's to plastic guns for the same reasons.

Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.

As to addressing a threat, DG made some good points. In fact, if I was in a store and a lunatic started shooting, I am not sure I would engage unless I and loved ones were threatened. Not sure I want to go looking for a gun fight. Here is my thinking on it. First, if the BG gets a lucky shot I am out of the battle and maybe dead. Second, I am not leaving my loved ones in case there is more than one shooter, my responsibility is to protect them. Third, even a "good shoot" can get dicey legally. Fourth, if there is another armed "hero" how does he know I am not the threat or a second lunatic when he sees me with gun drawn and moving?


I am thinking the same as you are in a store stetting. If they were close to me and I was behind the BG I would consider picking them up and slamming them down hard onto the floor rather than shooting. This is assuming they are an average sized person. I do practice with my J-Frames at various distances out to at least 35 yds and shoot at my gong just for fun at distances from 100 to 165 yds.

[imashooter2]

My J frame is a fire extinguisher. It’s good for small problems and preventing small problems from becoming big ones. There are situations where it will be inadequate to deal with the problem. I'm too old to pretend otherwise.

[auto5man]

My J frame is a fire extinguisher. It’s good for small problems and preventing small problems from becoming big ones. There are situations where it will be inadequate to deal with the problem. I'm too old to pretend otherwise.

insightful answer!

[robertbank]

One other thing that makes sense to me is to practice your weak hand shooting.

Robert

I think some practice but I would not spend a lot of time on it. The chances up here of getting into a gun fight are beyond slim and none. That said, I suspect that if I were to be shot in my strong arm...anywhere I wont be popping rounds off weak handed. Shock, blood loss and pain might have me out of the fight. I suppose there are other scenarios where weak hand shooting might be envisioned. It seems to me the average gun fight in the US lasts about 3 to 4 rounds. Planning for what is more likely has some merit.

Take Care

Bob

[ABJ]

Range report from the 4th of July.
S&W Shield at 50 yds. 4 inch's high and 3 inch's right of aiming point, within the center mass. Group size around 5 inch's.
Glock 43X with optic, dead center where the dot was.
Glock 43 iron sights, basically center about 4/5 inch's high. same group size as the Shield just more center on target.
Larger Iron sight guns with 4 and 6 inch barrels, multiple calibers, we could say on a 7x11 swinger at 50 no problems.

Going back to the Shield and Irons I may have to drift the sights a little to match the POI of the 43.
Tony

[Lance Boyle]

In 25 years of LE training I have seen shifted emphasis. When I first started we did a fair amount of handgun training at 25, 35 and 50 yards with about our half the round count and the majority of the remainder a 3,7 and 15 yards.

The training doctrine changed based on analysis of shootings truthfully were inside 5 yards for the most part. There was a lot more shove and shoot from the hip, flash sight picture shooting near in. 50 yards was all about gone with the service pistol. That was shotgun turf about the last third of my career. Then carbines all the way in close to 100 yards.

Being able to make pistol hits at 50 was very important when I first started. I was also one of the early guys that was never issued a revolver. The revolver practices certainly hung on for years. In fact I think the state minimum qual course was all six shot based even when I retired a few years ago and that too dropped 50 yards entirely. We had our own overly complex course on multiple targets with round counts spread unevenly on your target pair, but occasionally would shoot the easier state basic course every few years just to say we did it.

Being able to hit at 50 even if it is i timed slow practice is a skill builder. If you can use the fundamentals to hold on 50 then 15 is simple.

My carry gun is a 43x and spare mags. If I expect more trouble,....I ain’t going! I do sometimes carry a cZ Po7 with a lot more capacity.

[ABJ]

"Being able to hit at 50 even if it is i timed slow practice is a skill builder. If you can use the fundamentals to hold on 50 then 15 is simple."

Lance, I agree, once we started playing around at fifty and 100 yds the short line got much easier. I was actually surprised how well I did with the shield and 43. I really doubt I will ever have to engage a 50 yd target with my EDC gun but it doesn't hurt to practice.

The 43x with optics was my buddy's gun and "holy cow" we stayed in the ten ring of a 50 yd repair center with a two hand hold, slow fire. We are both Bullseye shooters which is one hand only but still the little gun delivered. I may have to reconsider the optic's route on a EDC.
Tony

[rintinglen]

Aye yi yi yi yiii.

Today was a learning experience, but an unpleasant one. Of my regular carry guns, only one put its shots close to point of aim. My 1961, nickel- plated, Detective Special did OK, though the shiny sights had me longing for a magic marker. But my LCP, My Cobra, and my Mustang Pocketlite were pitiful at 50 yards. Now to be fair, I expected nothing from the LCP. In previous shooting, by the time I got to 15 yards, I'd better be shooting at washtubs, but the Pocketlite I had higher hopes for. But it was hitting 10-12 inches left, 6-8 low and as for groups, well I guess they all hit somewhere in Albemarle County.

The Cobra needs decent grips. The ones it has now are too slippery, though they look mighty nice. I have a set of Pachmayrs somewhere in my stuff that will be going on it before we come back out next week.

But the surprise came with my DYI J&G Sales Model 10 snubbie. They had gunsmith specials: foreign service, round-butt Model 10's that had had the barrels removed. I bought one, ordered a barrel from Jack First and had my local gunsmith put the two together. It came out pretty well, so I bought a second. The 2nd one was a little rough--the grips looked like they'd been drug down a gravel road. I had a Model 64 2 inch barrel for some time, waiting for a beater 4 inch to show up to become a snubbie. I installed that barrel myself, using a 13 MM washer with 280 grit sand paper glued to it as a poor man's lathe to remove enough metal from the barrel shoulder to allow me to tighten it up the rest of the way. I gave it a coat of Brownell Aluma-hyde II and put a set of pachmayr compacs on it. It is not a regular carry gun for me, but it should be. I put the last five rounds I had with me into a nice, well-centered group, that was only about 4 inches below POA at 50 yards. I'll post a pick when I hunt up my camera.

Anyway, I strongly encourage you to take a few shots at extended ranges, if only to determine where to hold should your next 4th of July party attract the ire of some refugee from a Cuckoo Clock and you find yourself playing counter-sniper with your EDC.

[ABJ]

rintinglen, Interesting that your compact EDC hit low and both of mine hit high. I am guessing its the difference in how we each hold the gun.
I have no idea how Glock and Smith regulate their sights, both of mine have the three dot system. I did use the longer mag to catch my little finger. both of mine are on between 7 and 15 yds. and at 25 I can stay on a round 5 inch swinger most shots.
I forgot to take my model 15 snub, so now I am forced to go do another test this weekend with it. It has adj. sights so I think setting them at 25 and see what happens at 50.
Tony

[Daekar]

Sounds like adjustable sights are not necessarily optional on a carry gun anymore. If you can't at least drift the rear sight for windage there's no way you could reliably reach out to "mass shooting defense" distances.

[ABJ]

Sounds like adjustable sights are not necessarily optional on a carry gun anymore. If you can't at least drift the rear sight for windage there's no way you could reliably reach out to "mass shooting defense" distances.

Yes sir I agree. The K frame in 38 special is a little big for me for IWB EDC. But as an OWB weekend carry it doesn't bother me. Around the farm I usually carry a Uberti bisley in 44 special, 4.75 inch. I shoot it alot and am comfortable out to 75 yds. The shield and glock 43 the sights will drift for windage but the front sights are wide and cover so much of a target at 50, any precision work is pretty much useless in my hands. I am going to drift my rear on the shield to center at 50 (windage) and check to see if anything changed at 15.
This thread got me to thinking if Ruger would take the rear adj. sp101 4 inch gunsight and put it on a 2.75 or 3 inch that might be the perfect EDC revolver.
Tony

[Daekar]

This thread got me to thinking if Ruger would take the rear adj. sp101 4 inch gunsight and put it on a 2.75 or 3 inch that might be the perfect EDC revolver.
Tony
Well it's not a Ruger, but there are two other options. S&W sells a 3" J-frame in 357mag with fully adjustable sights, and that's what I carry. I love it, the only thing "wrong" with it is that it only holds 5 shots.
Alternatively, you could get the Kimber K6S 3" and buy the target adjustable sights straight from Kimber, and just swap them out. It's the more expensive option, but you get target sights and 6 rounds in a small wheelgun.

[Kosh75287]

There is a LAUNDRY LIST of "other considerations" mentioned by posters, all of which deserve due consideration. ONE possibility that I haven't seen specifically discussed is the asymmetry of armament that unfolds between the defender and the attacker.
The most recent active shooters used AR15-pattern rifles in perpetrating their atrocities, not sidearms. Unless the defender enters the intended zone of attack with a rifle on their shoulder or in their shopping cart, they are already at a disadvantage to the perpetrator. The defender's sidearm is less powerful, harder to shoot well, and has roughly half the magazine capacity (at best) than the attacker's weapon.
The "fight vs. flee" dilemma suddenly looms large in the decision-making process. Evading the field of fire seems the best decision, but HOW to leave it becomes another consideration. Simply running away and leaving the creep's gunfire unanswered almost always results in further injury and death.
Unless a great many things magically go exactly right (which almost never happens under fire), I'M not likely able to fire a disabling shot into a creep at 50 yards, while under cover. I CAN, however, direct enough rounds NEAR said creep to likely make him reconsider sticking his head up again to fire more rounds. The short interval during which said creep is "reconsidering his career choices" can be life-saving for would-be victims whose only defense is flight and evasion.
Even if I AM armed with a rifle, I'M not inclined to shoot it out with an active shooter, when I have the option of leaving in relative safety (that's for people who get PAID to do it). But suppressive fire CAN be life-saving, and should not be dismissed as an option if:
1.) It can be done from a position of relative safety.
2.) More innocent lives are likely to be lost, BUT FOR making the creep keep his head (and rifle) down.

One last thing:
SUPPRESSIVE FIRE does not equal "SPRAY & PRAY"! The defender must force himself to aim and fire as carefully and deliberately as circumstances allow, balanced against the fleeting intervals in which the creep may expose himself to gunfire. If the defender manages to connect with a shot, so much the better. He may shorten the crisis.
However, landing multiple rounds close enough to the attacker to interrupt his machinations is the more realistic goal. Once the area is clear of innocent persons, the need for suppression gives way to the need for evasion and letting the sworn professionals (who, we hope, have arrived, buy then) pick up the fight.

Anyway, this occurred to me, and I didn't see it mentioned in other posts.

[robertbank]

Welcome to Uganda.

Man some of your realities are amazing given the 49th is all that separates us. We get most of the news about these mass shootings up here that are used to justify Trudeaus new gun bans. That said it is what it is.

I question any civilian taking action such as returning fire in any of these mass shootings. Why? Well, when the well trained street officer arrives on the scene I am quite certain he is most likely going to take on anyone firing rounds in the area and that most likely would be YOU! Flee at the first sign of rifle fire would be the smart option. Not sure returning fire would be my last option but it sure would be close to the last.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families and your country as a whole. It is sad what we are seeing in front of our eyes.

Take Care and be Safe

Bob

[Kosh75287]

:roll:

[Daekar]

Well, we know what it looks like when the men of a society abdicate their responsibility to protect it and those they are duty bound to put first...

[robertbank]

Well, we know what it looks like when the men of a society abdicate their responsibility to protect it and those they are duty bound to put first...

So you think, likely being shot by a police officer while you wail away with your pocket pea shooter at a bad guy 100 yards or more away is a more ethical and responsible choice for your family, particularly if your child is with you or have I miss read your post.

I think you watch to many movies.

Highland Park and the recent Texas School shooting are reminders of how horrific humans can be towards each other. Our village idiot in the Prime Ministers Office will continue to push his anti-gun agenda on the backs of these poor victims. Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

On a more topical point what do US courts think of defensive shootings beyond 25 yards? Would it not take a special circumstance to claim use of deadly force was necesary to defend yourself. As I understand it most shootings take place within 5 to 10 yards and few beyond 25. (mass shootingd being the exception).

Take Care

Bob

[Kosh75287]

I don't know what the set-up was in Highland Park (Illinois), and I've never set foot in the Uvalde school. But if it's at all like the ones I've walked in the rest of Texas during my public education, main corridors would run 50 yards easily, and sometimes 75 yards. The need to make a shot at distances exceeding 25 yards, while unlikely, is certainly not out of the question. Ditto a WalMart, Home Depot, Lowe's, a major shopping mall, and a host of other public venues.
I'm not an attorney, but I have some passing familiarity with Texas law concerning the use of lethal force. The operative question comes down to whether it was reasonable for me to be "in fear for my life" or that of an innocent party from someone or something at whatever range I decide to engage them/it. If an active shooter is shooting at me from 25 yards with an AR-type (or any OTHER) rifle, you can bet your family jewels, I WILL ENGAGE.
If I've messed around and let someone with lethal intent get within 5 or 10 yards of me, I've REALLY messed up and overlooked A GREAT MANY things around me that I never should have. If I'm in a confrontation that hasn't yet turned into a firefight, I may not "start the festivities" at 25 yards, but the aggressor(s) will not get within 10 yards of me before they know I'm armed and and ready to end their existence(s) to maintain my own.

INTERESTING to ME that these things seem not at all apparent to you folks living on the OTHER side of the 49th. Then again, there's LOTS about my Canadian cousins which still mystify me.

[Daekar]

So you think, likely being shot by a police officer while you wail away with your pocket pea shooter at a bad guy 100 yards or more away is a more ethical and responsible choice for your family, particularly if your child is with you or have I miss read your post.

I think you watch to many movies.

Highland Park and the recent Texas School shooting are reminders of how horrific humans can be towards each other. Our village idiot in the Prime Ministers Office will continue to push his anti-gun agenda on the backs of these poor victims. Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

On a more topical point what do US courts think of defensive shootings beyond 25 yards? Would it not take a special circumstance to claim use of deadly force was necesary to defend yourself. As I understand it most shootings take place within 5 to 10 yards and few beyond 25. (mass shootingd being the exception).

Take Care

Bob

I don't watch TV, and rarely any movies, especially violent ones.

I think it's impossible to say whether or not a given situation is one where the best solution is to pull your carry gun. There are infinite permutations, many of which are appropriate situations to draw your gun and many which are not. I would never argue for endangering others unnecessarily or engaging when the mental math tells you it's a losing situation, but I do think it's important to do that mental math rather then deciding ahead of time that I will never help others in those situations. I also think this thread alone has covered enough examples that practicing 50 yard shots is a good plan.

I don't think the US courts would look well on self defense cases where the attacker is 50 yards away and you're the only involved party... but that's not what was under discussion. If there is clearly an active shooter situation where many lives are at risk then I don't think the courts are going to bat an eye about the range.

[rintinglen]

The distance, save for determining the reasonableness of your action, is largely irrelevant, in the context of a shooting situation.

In Virginia, where I now reside, there are 4 factors involved in judging whether deadly force is justified. You must have a reasonable belief that the use of force was justified, there must be an overt act that puts you or another in danger of being assaulted, and the assault must threaten severe injury or death, and finally, you must use only the force reasonably necessary to forestall the attack. Virginia is a stand-your-ground state, so you have no affirmative duty to withdraw from a location where you have a legal right to be.

A mere fear does not justify the use of force. Even if third parties have warned that an individual is out to get you, even if he has verbally threatened you, unless and until he actually does something to initiate an attack force may not be reasonably used. The attacker must be sufficiently close for his manifestly intended assault to at least be possible of success. A party, regardless of threats or actions, armed with a impact or contact weapon, must be "in range" before force can be used. Finally, the force used must be reasonable and must cease when the assailant is deterred. You may not give a finishing shot, or continue to pummel someone who has stopped fighting. Your use of force is merely to protect yourself from harm, not to punish or get revenge for the attackers actions.
Under Virginia law, you may use force, including deadly force, to protect another, so long as that person could legally defend him or herself. In other states, there are specific individuals who one can defend, "Children, siblings, parents, grand parents, spouses, masters, servants, and persons acting in loco parentis". Your states law may differ. Know them.

In any shooting situation involving firearms, however, you may reasonably apprehend death or serious injury. Although the quote derives from California Law, "You can't shoot someone a little bit," it has universal application. Any bullet wound has the potential to seriously and permanently injure, and therefore deadly force is nearly always excusable or justifiable, if a firearm is threatened or displayed. Likewise, the distance is virtually irrelevant. Even a lowly 22 can travel up to 1.5 miles. You have to be pretty far off to be beyond the maximum range.

If you are being shot at, you can shoot back legally. You can try to run away. You can hide under a table or behind a car and hope the responding officers will save your bacon. However, most of us here who have undertaken the time and effort to secure the training to get or maintain a CCW permit have made a decision wherein we want to at least have the option of armed self defense. Having the option, it behooves us to develop the skill to effectively use it.

Plus, it's a good reason to get out and do some shooting. Standing on your hindlegs popping off a few rounds at 50 yards will give you an idea what you and your gun can do. Even if you never use it, it is a neat thing to brag about when you are back in the clubhouse with your buddies.

[robertbank]

Daekar I agree one should always, when possible, to help others. My point was that in a mass shooting environment pulling your gun while dressed in civilian clothing more likely got you shot by the arriving police officers than not. I would think that would be particularly true if you were obviously shooting at targets off in the distance where the target was not obvious.

Self preservation and those of your family would trump most situations I would think. Pulling a pocket pistol out in a mass shooting incident me, in my view, might be concidered police assisted suicide.

Take Care

Bob

[shooting on a shoestring]

When I was 13 and got my first 357 Dad had a talk with me.

One of his points was to never use a gun to stop a situation unless I was willing to give my life to stop it. Because, the other guy might kill me or a jury might not see it as I did and give me a death sentence. Now let’s add to that the responding cops might mistake me for the aggressor. Ok. Got it.

After seeing the Uvalde disaster, where the cops didn’t fire a shot at the active shooter killing kids for nearly an hour and a half after they arrived, makes me question how valid a concern there is to being shot by a cop period. Seems they have turned to taking the wait and see approach these days.

As for how the courts view distance in a shooting. They don’t consider it in Texas. In Texas for a shooting to be justifiable the aggressor has to display intent, ability and opportunity to do you or a third party physical harm. There are no limits placed on how close or far away the bad guy is when he’s doing his bad stuff.

[Txcowboy52]

I sight mine at 50yds and practice from 3yds to 100yds using both hands !

[charlie b]

The only useful part of this thread is that shooting at longer ranges is a good thing. If you are going to carry then at least know how well you can shoot WITH YOUR CARRY GUN. Be sure to do some shooting after a short run back and forth on the range.

If you have not participated in an IPSC type event it can be an eye opener, especially when using your carry gun and holster. Yes, if you carry IWB or ankle then that is what you should train with. Reloads from your pocket or wherever you carry spare ammo.

When you might engage an active shooter and when you might not is simply a personal decision. Just make sure you are aware of all of your local laws, including any that might be used in a lawsuit subsequent to any engagement and criminal trial.

[MUSTANG]

I believe that too many people worry about the things that are less important than those that are more important. Some thoughts from this thread.

1. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

2. If I am forced into a confrontation involving the use of a firearm, Change of Venue will be in my thoughts for some areas.

3. Ride to the sound of the Guns. An old thought from many decades/centuries ago. A modern corollary is that there are three types of people in this world: (a) Those who will cower when danger arises and neighbors, Friends, Family are threatened, (b) those who will flee/stand and watch it happen, (c) and those who will take action. I have been blessed in my life on more than one occasion to be the last; hopefully I will never be in the category of the first.

4. I prefer a .45ACP when carrying, although it might actually be something in between a 22Lr to the .45ACP during moderate to warm weather or dependent upon social surroundings.

5. Some discussion of distance has been made - a .45 ACP will only drop 18 Inches at 100 yards. With practice, one can engage human sized targets with a .45 ACP or other hand firearms successfully. (Got into that discussion with son #3 who was a Las Vegas Metro Cop - he was amazed when I said it and proved it with him shooting and "Training" him on the weekends. Not exactly the training most police departments will do.

6. I can live with myself if I have to take out a BAD GUY/GAL protecting my neighbors, friends, family in their or my defense; even should result in unwarranted jail/prison time. I could never live with myself being that person in description #2 (Standing by doing nothing) or description #3 (Cowering in the corner or under a piece of furniture doing nothin).


We all live our lives and make our choices - sometimes fate may thrust us into undesired situations - the make up of our personalities and backgrounds will show during those times of fate.

[Catshooter]

Robert,

As it happens, your opinions are not matched by the facts here in the US.

It's never a good idea to comment to much on situations that occur far away in another country as what happens is too far away, difficult to understand and most of all, one's only source of info is the media. Mark Twain, who died a long time ago said that if you don't read the papers, (the only media at the time) you're uninformed. If you do read them, you're misinformed.

Many of us knew that here, but it took President Trump to really start to open a lot of peoples' eyes.

Can a good guy get shot at a mass shooting by the cops? Sure, and it's happened. But there's also been more cases where the good guy didn't get shot and saved God alone knows how many lives. Lots.

And distance almost never has any bearing on whether it's a good shoot or not.

Stick to things Canadian. I'm sure you do fine there.

[robertbank]

Catchooter thanks for the reminder. Given every mass shooting in the US has a profound effect on our Gov'ts desire to remove our guns from us it is not fair for you to suggest we up here should just ignore what goes on in the US. Too, I have a sister and several cousins who are Americans so It isn't like I am totally unconcerned personally. Family does matter.

The Texas incident is bizzarre. The most shocking mass shooting occurred up here in the late 1980's when 18 or 19 female engineering students were murdered in their classroom while police waited outside for the gun fire to subside. That is when North American Police Departments changed their protocols regarding when action should be taken when such incidents take place. There will be enough naval gazing over the Texas incident to satisfy most and hopefully we see or hear of no more similar incidents....but we all know we will.

Unlike some here, I am not prepared to prejudge anyone's decision to either participate or not when the shooting starts. No one here knows what they will do until they are faced with the situation. All the internet swagger matters not.

If it doesn't trouble you that it would be difficult to find a comparable to the number of mass shooting that take place in the US and your only answer is to arm up then it suggests to me their is little hope for the situation to ever change.

Why is your situation very much Canadian. Our AR's are presently banned as are our CX4 Storms, Sig MPX and CZ Scorpians all announced within days of the Texas shooting. Justification for the banning for the most part is the events in the US. The Liberals up here have taken your former Prsidents tactic that if you tell a lie often enough most people will believe it to be true. Even if we are fortunate enough to vote the present village idiot out of office in the next election it will be difficult for even a Conservative Gov't to reverse all of what the Liberals up here have done with their ineffective legislation. FYI we average 550 murders a year up here and only 250 or so involve firearms. Of the firearm incidents most are gang related against their own.

Notwithstanding the opinions expressed here I remain convinced that pulling your blaster out during a mass shooting event is a bad idea that would seldom end well for you with little affect on the shooting incident. You might be better served by assisting the injured prior to the arrival of medical teams. I am sure most here have had some medical training.

Take Care

Bob
ps Off to our monthly IDPA event FX9 and M&P in hand. Have a great week.

[MUSTANG]

Catchooter thanks for the reminder. Given every mass shooting in the US has a profound effect on our Gov'ts desire to remove our guns from us it is not fair for you to suggest we up here should just ignore what goes on in the US. Too, I have a sister and several cousins who are Americans so It isn't like I am totally unconcerned personally. Family does matter.

The Texas incident is bizzarre. The most shocking mass shooting occurred up here in the late 1980's when 18 or 19 female engineering students were murdered in their classroom while police waited outside for the gun fire to subside. That is when North American Police Departments changed their protocols regarding when action should be taken when such incidents take place. There will be enough naval gazing over the Texas incident to satisfy most and hopefully we see or hear of no more similar incidents....but we all know we will.

Unlike some here, I am not prepared to prejudge anyone's decision to either participate or not when the shooting starts. No one here knows what they will do until they are faced with the situation. All the internet swagger matters not.

If it doesn't trouble you that it would be difficult to find a comparable to the number of mass shooting that take place in the US and your only answer is to arm up then it suggests to me their is little hope for the situation to ever change.

Why is your situation very much Canadian. Our AR's are presently banned as are our CX4 Storms, Sig MPX and CZ Scorpians all announced within days of the Texas shooting. Justification for the banning for the most part is the events in the US. The Liberals up here have taken your former Prsidents tactic that if you tell a lie often enough most people will believe it to be true. Even if we are fortunate enough to vote the present village idiot out of office in the next election it will be difficult for even a Conservative Gov't to reverse all of what the Liberals up here have done with their ineffective legislation. FYI we average 550 murders a year up here and only 250 or so involve firearms. Of the firearm incidents most are gang related against their own.

Notwithstanding the opinions expressed here I remain convinced that pulling your blaster out during a mass shooting event is a bad idea that would seldom end well for you with little affect on the shooting incident. You might be better served by assisting the injured prior to the arrival of medical teams. I am sure most here have had some medical training.

Take Care

Bob
ps Off to our monthly IDPA event FX9 and M&P in hand. Have a great week.


Statistics can be interesting. Drawing conclusions from them can be quite divisive and emotional. Consider the following:

301972


Yes, Canada has 1/3 the number of Murders of the US (Based on the murders per % of Population).

Yet; as we go South (By Country) we see dramatic escalation of the Murder rate. Why? A mix of population density (cities) where historically dense metropolitan areas have significantly greater homicide rates, more crime in general increases (maybe because of population densities?), and other factors.

Last time I went to Mexico was in 1981. Never been back and I am positive it is getting worse every year. The wife, her college friends, and husbands have gone to Canada twice the last 10 years - I would not go because of inability to have/carry a firearm. To each their own where they choose to live. I am no longer subject to my uncle (SAM) telling where I must go, and I do not want to be subject to large population centers (unless I have little/no choice); so I reside, recreate, and socialize in more remote areas and towns (both Montana and Nevada) where the threat is significantly lower and where should a threat arise; the locals see no problems with dealing with that threat. The migration of City People and their values has and will screw that locale and social values over time. My values do not change - so conflict or migration will come into play at least one more time in my life.

[Txcowboy52]

Well said Mustang, both times!

[shooting on a shoestring]

A big thank you guys for keeping it civil.

The primary reason for this board is to spread our knowledge and experience about pouring the silver stream through molds and into boolit holes. Politics are a is a chug hole.

[35remington]

Given even a fast police response time of three minutes, police time to respond is much longer than I have to make a choice about what to do. If I am so situated that things are not to my advantage I’d prefer to have an extra tool in my kit. So I feel better about carrying a RDS type pistol.

Regrets that you have happening what we are concerned about. We have always had the capabilities to carry out mass shootings in our history. The problematic thing is why it is happening now.

[Catshooter]

Robert,

Here is the latest example of a good guy killing an active shooter and not getting shot by the cops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-idRI8jQFM

[Texas by God]

Rintinglen, you got me thinking about this- so I set a 16" wide by 48" tall box upright at 40 yards.
Grabbed the two nearest pistols that would fit in my back pocket. A Shield 40 and a Taurus PT22.
I fired them quickly at the "bad skinny guy" box; first the .40- 4 hits out of 7- two were actually where I wanted all of them!
7 out of nine hits with the .22 DA only pistol.
Time for more practice for sure!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Wag]

Apparently, Elisjsha Dicken, who's action with his pistol, shot and killed the mass shooter at the mall in Indiana at 40 yards. He got 8 hits out of 10 shots on the target at 40 yards.

Makes me wonder how much practice he did at ranges long than that. Amazing that in that stressful situation that he was able to get the hits at all from that distance but I'm duly impressed that he was able to keep his cool and perform under pressure like that.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html

--Wag--

[rintinglen]

302371302372
Here are some results of further experimentation. This is one of the J&G gunsmith specials that I bought and installed a barrel on. I fired it with 158 cast HP over 4.3 grains Titegroup, a max +P load from Hodgdon.

The first group was the blue dots (left over from a yard sale.) I fired DA, slowfire, standing at 50 yards, and was very happy to see that the gun was pretty much dead on for windage. (The miss by his left ear was all me--the trigger could be smoother.)

Being elated at the point of impact being only a few inches high and pretty much on center, I decided to try some head shots. I fired another 5 shots slow fire aiming at his adam's apple. The vertical dispersion was the result of my 68 year old eyes having difficulty with the sun. 4 were right in there, the 5th is just over the top of the head. These are the yellow pasters.

For the next five, I fired more rapidly, trying for a Timed-Fire rate. For some reason, I pulled them a bit to the right. They are the ones in red. I reloaded and fired five more, again trying for five shots in 20 seconds, and paying more attention to the sights. Those are the green dots. I was having even more trouble with the sights fuzzing up, and called it a day. I am going to give it another go next week with my 3 inch J-frame.

[shooting on a shoestring]

That Sir, is a solid pass!
Very nice demonstration!
Thanks for posting.

Cool gun.

[Daekar]

I am going to have to do something similar to see where I am with my 3" S&W. I often shoot steel with it at ranges beyond 10 yards, but I don't do so with any attention to time beyond a vague idea that I might have a limited window to snipe a rabbit or something. I suspect it will be fine, but there's a chance that a longer barrel would be very helpful. If so, things like the Kimber K6S Target with a 4" barrel are going to start looking for appealing for CCW... Although the grips from the 2" and 3" models might be called for.

[markshere2]

Welcome to Uganda.

Man some of your realities are amazing given the 49th is all that separates us. We get most of the news about these mass shootings up here that are used to justify Trudeaus new gun bans. That said it is what it is.

I question any civilian taking action such as returning fire in any of these mass shootings. Why? Well, when the well trained street officer arrives on the scene I am quite certain he is most likely going to take on anyone firing rounds in the area and that most likely would be YOU! Flee at the first sign of rifle fire would be the smart option. Not sure returning fire would be my last option but it sure would be close to the last.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families and your country as a whole. It is sad what we are seeing in front of our eyes.

Take Care and be Safe

Bob

Well, that didn't age well, in light of the Greenwood mall events where a 22 year old civilian man used his glock to stop an AR15 shooter in minutes.

Sorry Bob, you are wrong.

Reality: Freedom is messy, but much better than tyranny.

[Electrod47]

We needed this kid at Uvalde....Kid hears gunfire.......I got to go to the sound of the gun.....Innocent looking people being shot, people running in terror......gotta get closer....stop this guy...NOW..
Literally Hundreds of cops on scene at Uvalde and none of them decided it was wise to engage the shooter...even though they were standing in an elementary school...with class's in session.

[Catshooter]

Cowards can always find a good reason to not act. Whether they are wearing a badge or not. Life is scary and dangerous. Here in America we for too long have given them a voice, pretended that "they have a point", stayed polite. It's fine for them to stay in their corner and whimper & whine, but we let them into our schools, our government. Terrible, terrible mistakes that we are now paying for.

I'm not aiming this at you Robert, you're Canadian and I have no real idea about life there. In America we've let the crazy, the cowardly and the evil in and they are having a ball. It may be too late now for us, we shall see.

[rintinglen]

Folks, please take your politics to the pit.

This thread was intended to be a discussion of carry gun capabilities at range, in the event of the rare, but not impossibly so, need to shoot defensively at ranges greater than "Long knife."

Please give your pocket, purse, or other hideout a trial at some distance and report it here.

[Catshooter]

Longer distance is fun as all get out. A couple years back I started it up again after many years not. Set up a frame that holds three 3/4 silhouette targets at 90 yards.

Shot at it with a variety of weapons and surprisingly did the best (so far) with a Glock 39. A sub-compact in .45 GAP. Got 7 hits out of ten fired. That's my best. There are times when I get zero, I can't shoot like I used to.

Fun and instructive and possibly useful too!

[charlie b]

In the old days....we used to shoot at clay pigeons, 70yds. With a good pistol we could usually hit them 25% the time (standing). Of course, my son could usually hit 50% of the time :)

[Bigbore5]

In my military career and as a contractor I witnessed that people react how they are trained. This has proven itself out time and again.
I was trained to identify then neutralize the threat. That could meen avoiding, retreating, or engagement. I have had to use them all in the past. Hopefully I will not be forced into those choices again.
No a Walmart is not Panama, Somalia, Iraq, or any of the other places I have been sent, but bad things happen where they happen. It's not being paranoid when the threat is real.
My daily carry now is a Colt Delta Elite worked over by Leonard Baity. It groups less than half inch at 25yds. I haven't had a single gun related stoppage yet and I shoot steal challenges regularly.
At 50 yds it is 1 1/2" low with golddot factory ammo and put 10 into 3". I compete with it, practice with it and carry it everywhere, everyday. I'm fully confident in it's capabilities and know my own limits.

[rintinglen]

These are the guns that I carry that have the capability in my hands to make a 50 yard shot.302627302628302629302630
Of the batch, the 3 inch Smith was the most accurate, though not much better than the K-frame m-10 snubbie. The Colt hung on into 3rd place, but a step back from the front runners. The Kahr surprised me, the trigger on the Kahr is not that great, but it still managed to put 5 out of five on the body of Mr. Bad Guy.

What differentiates these from the losers is that these shoot to POA, at least for windage. The two Smiths shoot very close both windage and elevation wise. The Colt nickle sights enlarge groups vertically, at least for me in the daylight sunshine, while the Kahr hits a couple inches to the right, but not enough to matter.

[rintinglen]

:|
302632302633302634302635302636
Not shown is my LCP.
The common element of all of these is that they don't shoot close enough to point of aim. The S&W 640 in particular is very accurate for me, but I am doubtful that in the heat of battle I could remember to hold on the left elbow of my adversary.

The Kimber is simply not accurate enough, at least in my hands, and it shoots 8-10" high. If I could guarantee that my attackers would present a target the size of a wash tub, it might do just fine

The Colt 1903 sights preclude me from obtaining consistent hits--though my first shot was as near as dead center as you could wish.

The Ruger shares with the S&W 640 the lack of correlation between point of aim and point of impact, it hits high and left.

The Agent was a major disappointment for me, as that is a gun I like and shoot well up close, but it jumps quite a bit with duty load equivalents and 3 inches off at 7 yards is more like 21" at 50.

The LCP is simply a belly gun, at least in my hands. If trouble starts and that is all I have I'll be joining the crowd seeking cover unless the bad guy is less than 30 feet away.

I will be doing some more work with the 640 seeking to find a factory/handload combination that hit closer to POA and the Ruger is going to the Gunsmith to have the barrel tweaked to see if it can be brought to join the herd. The laser on the Kimber will keep it in a strictly home defense roll, as there is no possible shot that would exceed its capabilities. At least, not in the house.

[ABJ]

Rintinglen, excellent range report. Also good shooting with the short K-frame. I have a model 15 with adj. sights, snub length, that is my next gun to try.
Tony

[rintinglen]

303356303358

The 4" K-frame Pencil Barrel M-10 is not a surprise here--a 158 HP at +P velocities put 4 of five in a 4 inch group and the 5th was also a good hit, 3 of five headshots hit the bad guy's head with one a little low in the neck. It has a really good trigger but could stand to have the barrel pulled and set back. It has a fairly large barrel/cylinder gap, .009-.010 at a guess, but it shoots so well, I don't really want to tinker with it.

The Colt Detective Special put 5 in the body but not in a really tight group. That might have been me having eye fatigue issues. I do my experimenting after shooting a 90 round 22 bullseye match and I seldom can fire more than 30 or 40 shots more before the fuzzies set in.

The Pink handled Model 60 on the top right was a bit of a surprise. It also shot very close to center, albeit a few inches below the POA. I usually carry 148 grain wadcutters in it and it did not disappoint. Fifty yards taxed my ability to see the 1/10" sights, but it still did all right.

The other pinkie, my 342 did not get a chance this time out, and I haven't had a chance to cast up some lighter boolits for the 640 yet, so it is just shown for decoration.

[35remington]

I have a very similar looking pencil barrel four inch Smith (made in 1953) with hammer spur intact that hits to the sights to fifty yards, groups well, and has a much tighter BC gap. When I am feeling my oats it puts most shots under the span of my palm at fifty from a rest even with the half moon front sight which makes it a great field pistol.

Given that handloaded standard pressure full charge wadcutters do about 870 fps (3.5 BE) and standard pressure 158’s get 910 fps with Unique and Power Pistol, at least with powder near the back of the case, I feel no need for plus P (pressure anyway; my handloads actually approximate some Plus P loadings in velocity) and in fact my 1953 model is not rated for it.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Taurus M 85 ultralight that I regularly practice with at 40 yds. I shoot at a 16" gong and I can usually hit the silly thing 5 out of 5 times with that little .38 Spcl. My EDC is a Smith Shield 2.0 EZ CT. It has a laser sight hung onto the front of the trigger guard and it is dead on at 50 feet and about 4" low at 50 yds. I ain't gonna mess with the adjustable parts of it. It works good enuf for me. Along with the smith I also pack a .44 Special Bulldog without a hammer spur as a back up. It is light enough to drop into a back pocket and is faster to deploy than to reload the smith. That bulldog is a joy to shoot with loaded down 240 gr lead hollowpoints and I usually run 5 gr of Unique in those mankillers. I do however need to practice some beyond 25 yds.

[armoredman]

The last time I stretched it out past 25 yards was when Da Boy and I tried the Eli Drill, (draw from concealment, 10 rounds, 15 seconds, 40 yards, need 8 out of 10 in the scoring rings to pass, B-27 target), and I did not do as well as I would have liked, by far.

[RJM52]

I agree. I sight all my fighting pistols in at 50 yards for this very reason.

"moving to a rifle." IF you can. If.

Another point of reality that most miss is shooting their carry piece without ear pro. In a fight you probably won't be wearing any and it's good to know what it's like. Especially for those who carry short .357s with mag ammo. I tried that once and damn near dropped the gun. I would have been out of the fight right there. The new .30 Super Carry will be worse.

...have spoken with a lot of gunfight winners and no one hears their shots...a soft pop is all anyone remembers.. From what I have read there is a protection mechanism built into the brain that "knows" what is coming and shuts down the affected system. Same difference between target shooting and having a deer jump up in front of you and run....you don't hear the shot.

Do not "test" this...you can end up with tinnitus with just one round...

As to muzzle flash...have been teaching no light/low light shooting on indoor ranges since the early 1990s...anything other than a 4" .500 S&W is a non issue.

And yes, very important to know where ones carry gun shoots out to at least 50 yards... I've carried a Colt Commander in .38 Super 99% of the time since 1980...sighted in at 50 yards I just have to put the head right on top of the sights and the bullet drops right into the A-zone at 100...

Great thread...Bob

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for sharing the results and doing the leg work.

[Kosh75287]

302371302372 Here are some results of further experimentation. This is one of the J&G gunsmith specials that I bought and installed a barrel on. I fired it with 158 cast HP over 4.3 grains Titegroup, a max +P load from Hodgdon.
The first group was the blue dots (left over from a yard sale.) I fired DA, slowfire, standing at 50 yards, and was very happy to see that the gun was pretty much dead on for windage. (The miss by his left ear was all me--the trigger could be smoother.)
Being elated at the point of impact being only a few inches high and pretty much on center, I decided to try some head shots. I fired another 5 shots slow fire aiming at his adam's apple. The vertical dispersion was the result of my 68 year old eyes having difficulty with the sun. 4 were right in there, the 5th is just over the top of the head. These are the yellow pasters.
For the next five, I fired more rapidly, trying for a Timed-Fire rate. For some reason, I pulled them a bit to the right. They are the ones in red. I reloaded and fired five more, again trying for five shots in 20 seconds, and paying more attention to the sights. Those are the green dots. I was having even more trouble with the sights fuzzing up, and called it a day. I am going to give it another go next week with my 3 inch J-frame.

I find NOTHING wrong with your shooting! Had you been using a more "shooter-friendly" pistol, such as a 4" K-frame or even a 5" S&W M27, the marksmanship demonstrated would have been MOST satisfactory. To turn in such performance with a 2" J-frame is truly a nice day's work.
Interesting that, under timed fire, your tendency was to pull slightly to the right. Despite the "Center-mass" fixation prevalent in most training scenarios, I find the change in impact advantageous. All rounds appear to be in the pericardial region of the torso, where the body's largest blood vessels are generally situated.
Chronographing a few rounds of the reload you use, from the 2" J-frame and the 3" J-frame, might be instructive. On a not-at-all educated guess, I suspect the load is giving 700-750 f/s from the 2" barrel, and will probably deliver 750-800 f/s from the 3" barrel. Slightly better performance can be had, probably, but if it comes at the cost of such stellar marksmanship, it is likely a fool's bargain. At the end of the day, HITS are what count, and you racked up a bucket of them!

[FergusonTO35]

I'm now practicing at longer ranges with handguns. Not worried about bullseyes but just putting rounds in a place where they are likely to do damage. So far I'm good out to 15 yards with my Glock 42's and snubbies, hope to extend that.

[35 Whelen]

This is why I usually carry revolvers with at least 4" barrels rather than the more comfortable compact 9mm's. When we learned to hit a man-size silhouette at 100 yds., or a 12" steel gong, anything at lesser range becomes very, very easy.

https://i.imgur.com/EsehgjDl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1j85Ypzl.jpg

35W