Tower Pistol - the Saga Continues

[Bmi48219]

Got my 54 year old Hawes flintlock Tower pistol cleaned up and reassembled. Haven’t decided whether to blue, brown or somehow finish the lock & hammer but it looks good. Tried some new flints but not getting much spark.
There was enough to discharge one blank load and after several attempts fire one round ball down range. On the second loading things went south. Tried three new flints a total of a dozen times, no luck.
So I’m wondering, is the frizzen face supposed to be smooth or rough to produce a spark when struck by the flint? On my previous thread someone mentioned the frizzen on this replica were often to soft to reliably spark. The area the flint strikes is pretty smooth. Any suggestions?

[Bmi48219]

Moderator,
Can you please move this to the muzzleloader section?
Thanks

[redneck1]

Smooth , if it's rough you'll just ruin your flints .
And yea if it's soft it's not gonna spark .

Back in the very early 1990's I spent an entire summer making tower pistol fakes for a guy using them for decorating ... the elcheapo India made locks he gave me looked close enough to the real thing that an unscrupulous person could sell them as working repro locks.
For a kit gun .

[stubshaft]

I had one of those and the frizzen was too soft to do anything with. I had to harden it with Kasenit to be able to get any type of spark from it.

[bedbugbilly]

These were notorious for having soft frizzes. Kasenite or applying a hardened face to the frizzen (a separate piece of good hardened steel) was the usual solution. In the mid 60s, we had several kids buy these and put them together and finish as a shop project - all of them had soft frizzes and the shop teacher demonstrated how to harden them top with case Kasenite. IIRC - Dixie stocked Kasenite in those days just for such use.

[Bmi48219]

I had one of those and the frizzen was too soft to do anything with. I had to harden it with Kasenit to be able to get any type of spark from it.

I fiddled around with it last night. I discovered one of the two lock mounting screws was too long and rubbing against the back side of the flint-holder slowing it travel (saw on a you-tube video that in the old days the thing I’m calling a frizzen was considered the hammer). I noticed while disassembling the pistol a week ago that the two lock mounting screws were different lengths. I had installed the longer one in the forward thru-stock hole where the assembled pistol is thinner. In that position the longer screw protruded nearly an eighth inch from the face of the lock plate. While assembling the pistol Saturday evening I used the shorter screw in the forward position where it fit flush to the face of the plate. I then installed the longer screw in the rear hole where it seemed to fit well.
Yesterday I removed the lock plate to check the tumbler notches for wear. I could see where the longer screw had left a mark on back side of the flint holder (hammer). I switched the screw locations and the flint struck the frizzen faster throwing more sparks.

I’ve started researching the various methods of hardening the frizzen face.
I recall working on carburizing heat treat furnaces. Has anyone face hardened cast steel using a propane torch for heat and activated charcoal powder?
Thanks

[Nobade]

Propane isn't powerful enough. Ideally you'd want a heat treat oven so you can bake it for a while with the carbon powder on it. But in a pinch you may be able to get it to work with a Mapp gas torch, though that's pretty marginal as well.

[Bmi48219]

Propane isn't powerful enough. Ideally you'd want a heat treat oven so you can bake it for a while with the carbon powder on it. But in a pinch you may be able to get it to work with a Mapp gas torch, though that's pretty marginal as well.

I wonder if it would just be simpler to find & purchase one that was already hardened. With my luck I’ll ruin the one I have trying to harden it.

[redneck1]

Well your looking at that the wrong way , you can't ruin a part that doesn't work to start with .

[Bmi48219]

Well your looking at that the wrong way , you can't ruin a part that doesn't work to start with .

True.

[John Taylor]

Many years ago in the Dixie catalog there was an article about making a frizzen hard . It said to use a piece of leather against the face and heat it in the coals of a fire. I tried it and it worked. The part has to get red hot and then quenched in water. Now I'm not sure if the frizzen had enough carbon to start with or if it got enough from the piece of leather but it did spark. If the frizzen is made from a high carbon steel to start with the quench could cause it to be brittle all the way through and it might break.

[Bmi48219]

……If the frizzen is made from a high carbon steel to start with the quench could cause it to be brittle all the way through and it might break.

That’s the 64 dollar question. From what I recall the pistol was around $30-$40.00 new in the late 60’s so I’m kind of doubting the steel was high quality. Appear to have been cast with crooked mold lines and bubble-like divots on the surface. Using sand paper and the occasional file I trued up the mold lines and sanded the areas around the divots to blend then in. Seemed like it was pretty soft.
Not sure if I should heat and H2O quench, or oil quench or try using Kasenite. I is sparking more reliably now that I backed the lock plate retaining screw out a 1/2 turn. Screw was rubbing on the back side of the hammer near the end of the fall.
There’s an old gunsmith in town I am going to run it by.

[sharps4590]

I've heard and seen frizzens faced with a feeler gauge. How it's done I have no idea but, they spark!

[Nobade]

Have you checked to see if a file will skate on the face? That would be my first test.

[Bmi48219]

Have you checked to see if a file will skate on the face? That would be my first test.

I just slid (no pressure) a metal file over the frizzen face. It leaves scratches on the surface. So it doesn’t appear to be hardened at all.

[Nobade]

I just slid (no pressure) a metal file over the frizzen face. It leaves scratches on the surface. So it doesn’t appear to be hardened at all.

You know how to proceed now...
You can see if it will quench harden and if not you'll have to case harden it or reface it with something that will harden.

[redneck1]

Kasenit hasn't been available for quite a few years , cherry red is one name brand and there's a few others . It's not real cheap .

It won't hurt anything to try quench hardening first . I'd use oil before water .

I don't think threw hardening and becoming brittle is going to be an issue .

[Sasquatch-1]

If you are going to use the leather method mentioned earlier go to Hobby Lobby and check their scrap leather packs. Some of them will have nice size pieces of leather and the cost is less than $10.00 the last time I bought. Just for reference, the bags I have bought have had pieces big enough to make possibles bags out of.

[Scrounge]

Way I read about to case-harden a part is to put it in a section of black iron pipe, with leather, bone charcoal, etc, packed in all around it, and both ends capped. Put it in a forge or fire, and let it burn until the pipe is uniformly red hot, and keep it there for a few hours. If you can lay hands on copies of the Machinist's Bedside Readers, reader #2 has a story called the "The Bullseye Mixture" that describes how to do color case hardening, and there are bits and pieces of info on case hardening in the others as well. If you can't find them anywhere else, PM me with your email address. IIRC, you could download them from scribd.com a while back, might still be true. I won't be able to reply today, getting my 2nd cataract surgery instead of lunch today.

Bill

[jimb16]

Many years ago in the Dixie catalog there was an article about making a frizzen hard . It said to use a piece of leather against the face and heat it in the coals of a fire. I tried it and it worked. The part has to get red hot and then quenched in water. Now I'm not sure if the frizzen had enough carbon to start with or if it got enough from the piece of leather but it did spark. If the frizzen is made from a high carbon steel to start with the quench could cause it to be brittle all the way through and it might break.

I did the same. The article said to wrap it in several layers of aluminum foil and leave it in the charcoal fire for around 20 minutes. After that, pull it out and quickly quench it. It worked great for me. And BTW, the frizzen was for one of those Tower pistols.

[webfoot10]

Heat the frizzen to a bright yellow as redhot is not hot enought.
Then take the hot frizzen and drop into a can of powdered bone
meal, be sure to completely cover the frizzen. The hot frizzen
will absorb the carbon in the bone meal, then reheat and quench
in ATF or cooking oil. Then clean and try the file trick. If not hard
enough, repeat untill its hard enough to spark. A trick from one of
my blacksmithing books.
webfoot10

[Bmi48219]

Here’s a happy update.
I was hesitant to try the suggested surface hardening procedures for fear of damaging the frizzen. While discussing this with a local gunsmith, (who has always been more than helpful) he checked the hardness of my frizzen with a carbide tool and believed it was fine as is. He did note the frizzen spring was really strong and kept the flash pan from getting a strong spark. The flint striking the frizzen didn’t slide down the frizzen face, more like it hit and stopped in the same spot. The flint impact raised the pan cover about 3/8”. I mentioned that it seemed the hammer didn’t travel very far upon pulling the trigger. There wasn’t much of a hammer swing. He said increasing the hammer throw would require adding metal to the sear-like rotating catch, while the frizzen’s cam surface, where the frizzen spring holds the frizzen closed could be dressed to reduce the force needed to uncover the flash pan.
I asked him to take care of the hammer throw and frizzen tension. The results are more than I hoped for.
I also replaced my missing ramrod with a brass lavatory sink drain pull-up handle I found in a mom & pop plumbing supply. And I discovered a jar of bone meal in the back of our pantry, in case I need to face harden anything in the future. Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions.

302661
302662