Gauging interest: .410 lee-style loader

[lathesmith]

Hello all,
There seems to be a rather high amount of interest in a run of Lee-style Loaders in .410. Apparently these have been discontinued for some time, with NO plans for another run. I have one of these from 'way back, I got it in the '70's when I was a teenager with a .410 H&R single-shot.
Looking at this tool, I believe it would be fairly easy to duplicate. Cost is another matter; IF I can get a custom reamer, and IF there is enough interest--say, 20-25 guys or so-- I believe these could be made for around $35-40 or so, depending. However, a few caveats need to be discussed to see if this idea can really be made to fly or not.
First, this price would only include 5 pieces--the body, the rammer, the de-primer, the capper, and the capper base. The material of choice would be drill rod. Finish would be very basic--maybe a quick polish after heat-treating. DIY finish by end users would really help keep the cost down here. Also, each user would be responsible for coming up with a powder and shot measure. This could be as simple as using a 45acp shell, for example, for measuring shot, or as exotic as you like. The plastic dippers are available from Lee, and can easily be adapted to this application. Cheap and effective.
Next, I need to hear from some of you shotshell loaders on how well these things would actually work. To be honest, when I saw these things fetching $100+ on feebay, I was thinking folks were buying them for nostalgia, and not for actual use. It looks like I was in error; the main interest in these seems to be as a working tool.
Anyway, after thinking about it for a while, I remember from the little use I gave this thing (over 20 years ago) that the main bug-a-boo was crimping. Apparently, these were popularized in the era of paper shells and pie crimps; when used with this type of factory shell, I believe I had good luck with it. However, nowadays the roll crimp is the in-thing, and I haven't seen a paper shotshell in years. So, how do you guys suggest the best way to crimp with one of these would be? I have seen on forums some guys swear they work fine, using roll crimps and even are suitable for loading 2 1/2" shells with the right operator. Other guys say no, these things are junk, and can never be made to work properly. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between these extremes, and my limited (though rather ancient) personal experience is a mixed bag.
So, I would really like to hear from some of you more experienced shotshell loaders on this. Paper or plastic? Pie or roll crimp? Can these tools really be useful and effective even if just a little slow? Or would they just end up being a disappointing gimmick? I guess the main thing I am trying to avoid is unrealistic expectations--I would want the guys who may get involved in this project to know exactly what they are getting.
Thanks for your input,
lathesmith

[Slowpoke]

Actually if a person was going to roll crimp their shells they wouldn't really need any other hard to find tool except for a roll crimper.

Precision Reloading has roll crimpers for $24.99

I would bet most reloaders already have everything else.

good luck

[mikenbarb]

I own one in 12 and 20 gauge and I use a Lee 6 and 8 point plastic crimp starter and it works great with finishing the final star crimp in a Lee Loader. I have also had great luck roll crimping with them and the trick is to give it a light spin while applying even pressure to the roll type crimp. If a hull already has a crimp you will not need to use a crimp starter and its the same principle as the old Herters shotgun dies for presses. You only needed a crimp starter if it was a new hull thats never been crimped before and once a crimp pattern is established it doesnt need to be again. I never used one in .410 but always wanted one so count me in because I know what to expect and that they do work good but the downfall is their slow. All you need is the Lee loader body with plunger, The correct size dippers for shot and powder and a cheap Lee crimp starter and your in. Oh, And the hull conditioner thingy.LOL.
I own numerous shotshell reloading presses but love to break out the Lee Loader when I only need to load a few and its a blast to use.

[725]

+1 with mikenbarb. And there are roll crimpers to be had via mail order.

[C A Plater]

Those things have been going for over $100 for quite a while. I'd wanted one but at that price, it made much more sense to get the MEC Jr. Still at $40 or less it would great for short runs to experiment with so I'd get one.

[krag35]

I would for sure be interested in one in the >$50.00 range. I would prefer the 2 1/2" version since that is what most all my hulls are, and I can cut down the few 3" I have.

[dromia]

I'd be interested in a 2" version.

[blysmelter]

Dont crimp, just place a pice of cardboard and some glue on top of the shot.

[jh45gun]

I would but I am semi setting up a old mec jr for what I need in 410. I figure I can deprime the shells with my Lyman Universal decap die. Seating primers is not that tough so that only means a drop tube which is cheap as is the crimp starter and the final station is no big deal either about $20 to $30 in parts for the Mec to get the job done. I have an adjustable bar so that takes care of that problem too. Be different if I did not already have some of this stuff like an extra old Mec ect. For what its worth a couple of issues ago The Back Woodsman had a 25 cent reloader made out of some scrap wood and for the crimps he glued over the shot wads as was suggested. I doubt the shells need to be sized as long as you use the same gun.

[Old Ironsights]

I've argued for this for a while. Played with the Idea with Lar45 too.

At the moment, I have 2 kits, one new style with plastic punches and one old style, so I don't need another, but last time I checked they were in high demand in Europe particularly.

FWIW I have a big bag 'o .410 star crimp starters...

Oh... and I also have Lee's Patent docs somewhere...

[turbo1889]

. . . First, this price would only include 5 pieces--the body, the rammer, the de-primer, the capper, and the capper base. . . .

At the risk of taking some of the wind out of the sails of this project I would like to ask how the indicated group buy project would be superior to just buying the kit from RMC and a roll crimp head ??? Yes, it's intended to be used to load their all brass casings but with the addition of the roll crimper it works just fine on the plastic hulls too except for not resizing the metal base of the hull which I don't think the Lee tool does either.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page10.html

Prices starting at $35 quoted at the bottom of this page:
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page7.html

Only thing I can think of is that with the Lee design you can fold crimp but it wouldn't be too hard to make two little cap shaped dealy-bobbers one for the crimp start and one for the crimp finish to accommodate that and just add them to the RMC kit along with or as a substitute for the roll crimp head.

[jh45gun]

I would think a mec crimp starter for a couple of bucks would take care of the starting of the crimp.

[45 2.1]

FWIW I have a big bag 'o .410 star crimp starters......

Since I have a three inch set, i'm in need of a couple of those things. Any chance of getting a couple?

[725]

I hope this one gets going.

[lathesmith]

Well, it looks like some good ideas and info are coming around here...which is the prime purpose of this thread. turbo, the main thing here is to put our ideas together here and try and come up with an affordable tool that actually works, and is not just a gimmick. That stuff that RMC makes is interesting, and also helps me understand what these tools can and cannot do.
First of all, it has become clear to me that the Lee setup is not going to give a satisfactory crimp with plastic hulls, and it was made mainly for paper shells that were star-crimped and have been once-fired. Since plastic is about the only thing widely available these days, that means we need to come up with a suitable method to crimp plastic.
Which means I need more input from some of you shotgun guys: Can you use a star crimp starter that was designed for, say a MEC machine, in a satisfactory manner to crimp by hand? If so, are any other tools necessary to finish the crimp?
If one of those crimp starters is useable by hand, then the die body itself isn't anything special. This means I wouldn't need a special reamer, and cost for this thing would likely drop below $35. So, I'm thinking it may be possible to use a crimp starter like this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=113528
And then finish the crimp with a rammer from a hand tool like the Lee. Granted, that brass crimp starter is expensive, but 1) This design should actually WORK and 2)It is usable with more than just 410 shells, in fact it is usable up to 20 gauge.
So, has anyone actually used a setup like this? If so, give us an honest appraisal of how it works (or not).
lathesmith

[Slowpoke]

Some neat .410 tools in this thread

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=167012&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[725]

I have no experience, but others here have suggested that an overcard and a dabble of duco dement take the place of a crimp, if crimping become a techno-challenge. Of course half the fun is overcoming those types of challenges.

[woody1]

Guess I'll have to weigh in here. I was gonna stay out of this because I've posted before here and other places about my reloading for .410 shotguns and at least one poster said "just get a MEC." With the economy being sour and folks outa work, I don't want to throw cold water on any ideas regarding someone making a buck and/or getting ammo on the cheap(er) than the high price of .410's. I have a 3" Lee Loader in 410 from the '70's. Since I didn't have a 3" 410 for a long time, it was mostly useless until I modified it.

Let's back up a little here...My son and I also have loaded hundreds of 20 ga. shells with a Lee Loader. Frankly with plastic, IMO the crimp sucks on a plastic 410 prob'ly due to the size. IMO it's a little better with the 20 gauge. A crimp starter is most desirable with plastic and the 410 Lee did not come with one. The cheapie plastic crimp starter that we had for the 20 gauge worked OK for the 410 to start the folds in fired cases. These crimp starters are/were available cheap from e-gunparts a few years ago. Don't know if they are now. Easy to check. The spindex crimp starter that's available from MEC also works for fired plastic when used properly by hand. I can give you the part number if needed. The other thing I find very desirable that did come with my 410 loader but not the 20 gauge is a wad starter thingy that is merely a 1/2" aluminum tube with wad fingers in it. Makes for easy wad inserting and would be easy to make.

So what about the crimp? I've written this up before so will pass for now and prob'ly come back to it later. The Lee will "work" and as some have said, satisfactorily for them. Remember though, several manufacturers make 410 shells in diffrent lengths even though the "nominal" is the same. Remington's are shorter than Winchester's for instance. Need to allow for that in die body and wad starter construction.

So, outside of crimping, what's really needed to cheaply and simply reload 410 plastics? ............To be continued.....

Regards, Woody

[Old Ironsights]

Since I have a three inch set, i'm in need of a couple of those things. Any chance of getting a couple?

Yep.

PM.

[woody1]

These decappers all work and work well. It ain't rocket science and it doesn't need to be drill rod or highly polished anything. In fact a 16 penny nail with the point knocked off works too which is just what the item to the left in the pic is except it's inserted into a 223 shell with the primer hole reamed out. This helps in centering the punch. The center item is merely a 5/16" bolt turned down for a decapping punch. I used a drill and a bench grinder as I do not have a lathe. It also fits in a shellholder for use with a press. No. 3 is just what it looks like... a 3/8" dowell with a piece of 16 penny nail stuck in it and capped with a piece of 223 shell to protect the end.

So to use any of 'em just do it the Lee way. Center the empty shell over a hole in a block of wood, a couple of washers, short piece of pipe, whatever and give it a whack. You get the picture. Regards, Woody

[Old Ironsights]

See, the important thing, to me, is not so much the punch sets, which, as you say are easy to cobble together, it's the sizing/stabilizing/pre-crimp properties of the cylinder.

I used mine extensively in slug-load develoment while I still had a .410. Much handier than hauling a Mec to the range.

[woody1]

What's the best way to recap those hulls you just decapped? The Lee whackit way will work but it didn't take long for the plastic *** de and re-cappers that came with my kit to come apart. I'd say most any metal 3/8" id pipe of tubing will work. I've even used a piece of aluminum arrow with one end reinforced with a wooden dowel. You do need a hole in one end as the primer sticks into the hull, thus the capper can't be a solid piece of rod on that end. In the photo I'm showing what I currently use. The rod is a piece of 3/8" copper tubing capped with a piece of 30-30 shell for the "whackit" end. For a little more finesse this same tube can be used to press the primer home using a MEC and just setting the hull on the flat base on top of the primer and inserting the rod and lowering the handle as if you were using the MEC dies. Easier to do than to explain. I hope you MEC users understand.

So what's that business I'm showing on the left side? I use a Lee bullet punch to push the primer into the hull with the hull contained in the washer and shoved, from underneath, into the hole in the loading press. The washer stops the hull and the punch inserts the primer nice, neat, slow, gentle and flat. "Whackit" I don't like! Regards, Woody

[woody1]

If you've got multiple 410's or are shooting hulls not from your gun, you'll need to consider resizing. There's two ways to do this, both cheap. My first sizers were 7/16" washers polished out to size the brass portion to approx. .465-.470". The easy way is to order the 410 sizing ring from MEC. I forgot the cost but it's cheap. To use it use your loading press and some pusher like a Lee bullet punch, or just a flat washer on top of a shellholder, to push the hull into the sizer with the sizer trapped underneath the die hole in your loading press. To get the hull out, use the "whackit" method with the sizer resting on a piece of pipe the the hull to fall into. Works for me. Regards, Woody

[jh45gun]

These decappers all work and work well. It ain't rocket science and it doesn't need to be drill rod or highly polished anything. In fact a 16 penny nail with the point knocked off works too which is just what the item to the left in the pic is except it's inserted into a 223 shell with the primer hole reamed out. This helps in centering the punch. The center item is merely a 5/16" bolt turned down for a decapping punch. I used a drill and a bench grinder as I do not have a lathe. It also fits in a shellholder for use with a press. No. 3 is just what it looks like... a 3/8" dowell with a piece of 16 penny nail stuck in it and capped with a piece of 223 shell to protect the end.

So to use any of 'em just do it the Lee way. Center the empty shell over a hole in a block of wood, a couple of washers, short piece of pipe, whatever and give it a whack. You get the picture. Regards, Woody

If a person has one I find that a Lyman Universal Decapping die works fine the only thing is I will have to modify a shell holder for a larger hole for the primer to fall through but I did try it with out a shell holder and it worked fine for decapping the 410 hulls.

[woody1]

If a person has one I find that a Lyman Universal Decapping die works fine the only thing is I will have to modify a shell holder for a larger hole for the primer to fall through but I did try it with out a shell holder and it worked fine for decapping the 410 hulls.

I seem to recall that I did that too but couldn't come up with a good way to insert the primer without changing tools so I figured the "whackit" was just as fast.

OK I'll shut up for a while and let this thread progress the way lathesmith intended...to gauge interest in a 410 loader. Regards, Woody

[bcp]

Why not thread it so it can be used in a standard reloading press instead of pounding on it with a hammer?

Bruce

[lathesmith]

bcp, the idea of threading has also occured to me...I'm giving it some serious consideration. A threaded 7/8 14 "die" would allow one to either use it by hand OR in a press.

Now, darn it Woody, you told us all about priming/depriming, even threw in a few tidbits about sizing. Pardon me for saying so, but that's the easy stuff. Now when it gets GOOD stuff, the more challenging part of actually loading and especially CRIMPING, you're gonna clam up on us? Sheesh, man, keep talking! This is the part we've all been waiting to hear!

lathesmith

[725]

oh yeah!! Thread it for a press. That would be cool. I'd start looking for a "thread protector" to fit over it when used in the whack it mode. Maybe even a female thread cover.

I'm resisting the urge to suggest anything that would take this item from the essence of simplicity to a whiz-bang, uber-loader, but a threaded feature would be nice. In the final analysis, I like simple.

[woody1]

Now Mr. lathesmith I figured mebe I'd hijacked this thread enough. I have posted my crimping method here before although I've mebe perfected it a little since. Ya want pictures or what?:) To load, dump in a dipperfull of 296(H110), Oh by-the-way we're loading 2 1/2" AA's, the old ones. The dipper is a fired WIN 9mm case soldered to a prob'ly 8 penny nail and dips right at 14 grains dipped my way. YMMV and I recommend that load ONLY for me and my guns. You choose the primer, I'm using Win. Now, using either finger finesse or the wad guide I've mentioned before, insert the proper shotcup/wad or card wads you're using. I highly recommend the wad guide. Tamp the wads/shotcup using whatever ya got that works and dump in a half ounce of shot, I'm using #9 or #10 dependin. Top the shot with a overshot card about 40 caliber. I use one that's about the thickness of a standard 3x5" file card. I cut it with a sharpened 40 short'n'weak case in a drill. This top card is just in case yer crimp isn't perfect and after you've shot those cases a bunch of times, it won't be. Mebe not ever! You can also drip wax or bullet lube to seal any hole in crimps. I just use a card and usually when I don't is when I screw up the crimp.

The crimp! Use a crimp starter and line it up with the previous folds first. This ain't a MEC that'll automatically (usually) align. To crimp you can use the handy Lee chamber and pusher if it's the correct length for your hulls. Mine isn't and even using 3", I don't like the crimp I get with mine. I crimp with .........to be continued...

[turbo1889]

Well I'm back to put forth a design I came up with last night. With thoughts of how the RMC reloading kit works, how the Lee loader works, along with some nagging thoughts in the background about the unique sizing dies used on some of the Ponsness Warren reloaders where the shell stays inside the sizing die during the entire loading sequence and is only ejected at the end this is what I came up with:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-01-29_141401_410_Hand_Loader_Concept.GIF

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-01-29_141411_410_Hand_Loader_Concept_Components.GIF

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-01-29_141420_410_Hand_Loader_Concept_Steps_of_Operati on.GIF

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-01-29_141432_410_Hand_Loader_Concept_Steps_of_Operati on_Alternate_Roll_Cr.GIF

Such a design consisting of 9 components plus an additional sizer die body for each additional shell length desired would produce a tool which would fully reload a plastic hull with a fold crimp that still had some "crimp memory" left including sizing the brass base. Add a roll crimp head and a hand drill and you can roll crimp as well. Add one of the MEC brass crimp starter head replacement parts mentioned earlier in this thread and you could load fresh never crimped hulls with a fold crimp too. Make the caps out of 7/8" threaded rod stock and the base a shell holder unit and it would work on a metallic reloading press as well. Cut it from steel rod stock choosing a particular steel that is soft enough to easily machine but still slightly harder than the very soft mild steel used on the very rare steel head 410 shells and your good to go. Brass head cases should size and eject just fine without lube and a mild steel head might take a finger wipe of case lube sizing die.

[woody1]

"Make the caps out of 7/8" threaded rod stock and the base a shell holder unit and it would work on a metallic reloading press as well. "

Yes! And be able to decap and recap with a modified primer punch on the primer arm. OK? In my experience, we will need a 6 point crimp starter even with fired hulls. Also wad fingers on the loading cap. Regards, Woody

[woody1]

Back again. I crimp with a RCBS 308 WIN seat die, believe it or not! The process is quite simple but hard for me to describe. What you want is for the finished crimp to bear hard against what would be the shell shoulder of the die. This puts the started crimp points into the bullet seating portion of the die in preparation to them being smushed (highly technical term here) down by the seating stem which you've first raised out of the way. The crimp pusher-downer-thingy can be anything you can raise and lower but needs to be about 5/16" diam. as the seating stem is. I first used a .32 wad cutter seating stem because it's longer but the bullet seating stem works too if it's filled with something to make it almost flat. I just wadded up some paper towel and stuffed it in.

When the hull is raised and the crimp points are pretty much fully within the neck portion, drop the ram a little and lower the seating stem (screw it down), raise the ram and feel the crimp begin, You'll want to then fully lower the hull and check progress until you've got if fully adjusted and are confident of what you're doing. I find that the difference between the seating stem raised fully out of the way and full crimp is about 6 turns. I took a few photos in the barn today and this is how I adjusted my die.

Remember these are WIN AA's old style 2 1/2". I put a reloaded hull in the shellholder and raised the ram fully. Put the die in the press and screw it down until it bears pretty firmly on the crimped hull. Lock the lock ring at this position. The bullet seat stem is raised completely out of the way at this point. Then I backed off the die approx 1/4 turn. Next I place a loaded, ready to crimp hull in the shellholder and kinda feel it going up into the neck portion of the die and bringing the crimp points together a little more. At this point, start bringing the seat stem down to lower the crimp petals. Lower the ram a little and lower the seat stem, raise the hull, you can feel what's going on. As I said, I find about 6 turns of the seat stem from start to finish. When the crimp looks the way you want it, quit. You can put a little more taper and/or round off the crimp more by raising the seat stem and lowering the die that 1/4 turn we raised it, shove that hull up and round it off.

Note the position of the seat stem in the attached photo. The position is just about flush with the top of the die when fully crimped. The white stuff you can see in the finished crimps is pieces of the paper towel filler from the seat stem grabbed by the crimp petals.

Regards, Woody

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

I have a Lee Loader 3" .410 taht I bought brand new. It does work great on paper and also on Remington/Peters plastic . Winchester hulls are too stiff to crimp.


So why not cork the winchesters? Could a little cutter be made to take wine corks and cut plugs out of them. Make them oversise so they would need to be compressed in a tapers tool (Maybe an old rifle casing?) and inserted over the shot.

Most bottle recycling centers and resturaunts/bars have hundreds of thousands of corks. I bet if you went in with some fresh hot coffe you could come out with buckets of them.


So: What kind of Brass riflle shell could be formed into a .410 shell?


better yet: Lets petition Shotgun Shell makers to bring back Biodegradeable Paper shotgun shells! Thats an idea even Nany Peolosi would like! Can we get Govt Grant money?

[Old Ironsights]

I have a Lee Loader 3" .410 taht I bought brand new. It does work great on paper and also on Remington/Peters plastic . Winchester hulls are too stiff to crimp.


So why not cork the winchesters? Could a little cutter be made to take wine corks and cut plugs out of them. Make them oversise so they would need to be compressed in a tapers tool (Maybe an old rifle casing?) and inserted over the shot.

Most bottle recycling centers and resturaunts/bars have hundreds of thousands of corks. I bet if you went in with some fresh hot coffe you could come out with buckets of them.


So: What kind of Brass riflle shell could be formed into a .410 shell?

.303 and .444 Lots of stuff out there - mostly Brit, but also on "the end times report"

Thing about Brass is - it's only good for Shot (ID too big for slug) and some extractors won't catch the rims.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5143.jpg

Left to right: Federal, Remington, Magtech .410 brass, Rem .444

[woody1]

I'd pretty much go with brass but I've got 400+ plastics and a gun with such a rough chamber I can't extract full length brass. IME 444's work dandy and I also use 44WCF and 44 magnum's for "short" loads. So where does one get paper 410 hulls these days? Regards, Woody

PS - I'm tellin ya guys the RCBS 308 die crimp works on those WIN AA hulls.

[dannyabear]

I agree with Woody, before I bought a MEC600, I made a set for 410 using 308 dies. I can't even find them right now, but if I remember right I drilled out the decap/resize die to the same diameter as the mouth of it. It will resize the brass using either a 444 or 45lc shell holder. while the shell was in the die I would slide out the shell holder and replace it with a penny. Put the primer on the penny and using the ram push the primer into the hull. Used a lee dipper for powder, pushed the wad in with a dowel, poured shot in that I had weighed, used the bullet seating die to start folding the crimp over the screw doen the bullet seater to finih the crimp; seams like i had to get some other seater that was flat but i don't remember what it was. Kinda slow but it worked good til i bought the MEC

[Slowpoke]

So: What kind of Brass riflle shell could be formed into a .410 shell?

The most common are 303, 444 ,9.3x74R.

Some three shot repeaters choke on the 444 because of the small diameter rim. The rim is to small to let the cartridge interrupter do its job, so once the cartridge stop releases the magazine empties.

Most will work with the 444 as two shooters though.

I have heard some guns wont extract because of the rim diameter as well.

The Magtec and .303 brass works good for 2 1/2" shells.

AS long as the Magtec is available, and a person didn't already have a stash of 444 or .303 , The Magtec is the way to go.

For brass three incher's, some use the 9.3x74, 405 basic, 400 nitro, 350-400 rigby and Rocky MTN cartridge makes three inch brass for the .410 with internal dimensions the same as Plastic three incher's. None are cheap!

good luck

[lathesmith]

Woody, OI, and others, thanks for sharing your methods and "hints -n- kinks" for handloading shotshells. turbo, that is quite a loader you have designed there, some real ingenuity! A little beyond my intentions and capabilities though, I guess I'm just a simple kind of guy.
Yes, woody, the more I think about it the more I like your using a 308 die as a finish crimper. I would dare to wager a lot of guys on this site have a 308 die hanging around,and there are other dies that would probably work as well. Nearly all would have at least a single stage press too, and using that to assist loading would be a plus.
The wad guide had me a little confused, but that is only because it has been so long since I have actually loaded any shotshells. I can see now how using some of those replacement wad guide fingers should make the job of stuffing a plastic wad into a shell somewhat easier.
So, more info is a good thing...lots of interesting ideas, and things to think about...

lathesmith

[Old Ironsights]

FWIW, even though I have some (with my 5 Lee Shotshell Loaders) I've never used a Wad Guide. Never seemed necessary somehow. It'sreally just a very flimsy piece of plastic anyway...

[Dakoma]

Make mine out of 303 British use pistol primers,cast my own buckshot,shoot mostly #4 shot and they work just fine.Tried to buy one of the Lee loaders when they were $25.00 with no sucess.Lee said they never made a loader for 410 (Lie) think it is a wonderful idea though hope you Getrdone.:-D

[jh45gun]

I have a Lee Loader 3" .410 taht I bought brand new. It does work great on paper and also on Remington/Peters plastic . Winchester hulls are too stiff to crimp.


So why not cork the winchesters? Could a little cutter be made to take wine corks and cut plugs out of them. Make them oversise so they would need to be compressed in a tapers tool (Maybe an old rifle casing?) and inserted over the shot.

Most bottle recycling centers and resturaunts/bars have hundreds of thousands of corks. I bet if you went in with some fresh hot coffe you could come out with buckets of them.


So: What kind of Brass riflle shell could be formed into a .410 shell?


better yet: Lets petition Shotgun Shell makers to bring back Biodegradeable Paper shotgun shells! Thats an idea even Nany Peolosi would like! Can we get Govt Grant money?

Check Circle Fly Wads

[725]

Brass rifle shell that can be used to make a .410 shotshell? -- .444 Marlin.

[725]

So, ............... is there any interest? I'd be in.

[725]

Hope the thought of this project doesn't fade.............................................. ...........

[725]

................away.

[lathesmith]

725 , I haven't forgotten about this project, though at the moment I have had to put it on the back burner. I wanted to let the thread "play out", and I think it pretty much has now. I have been thinking about what would be necessary to make a few simple tools for loading these shells, and as I can figure it, it kinda comes down to this:
1) Depriming punch
2) Repriming punch
3) "die" body. This wouldn't actually re-size the shell, that doesn't seem necessary. It would mainly be a piece of steel, about 3" in length, to be used to assist the loader to put stuff in the shotshell. And another question: does it need to be threaded, for the sake of convenience to allow a user to use it in a reloading press? Which leads me to item #4....
4) a combination decapper/shell holder. I have discovered that a Lee # 5 shellholder for 303 Brit works great with a 410 shotshell. If the hole was reamed to 5/16 it could be used as a decapping chamber, and then could be used on a press with the "die" body to help one stuff components in the shell. And finally....
5) a simple "rammer" that could be used by hand, or fixed in the top of the die body to help finish the crimp.
So, if one wanted to load 410 shells with these 5 pieces, he would also need:
1) a simple powder measure;
2) a simple shot measure;
3) a method of crimping or starting a crimp.

I believe I could make the above 5 pieces for around $35 or so, and then the end user would need to supply the last 3 items. I don't know if there would be much interest at that price, I'll guess I'll just wait and see. Also, some other guys had indicated possible future plans to make a handloader, and I don't want to step on any toes there or steal anyone's thunder. My main purpose here was just to try and see if there was a way of helping out those who wanted a simple loader, but didn't want to pay collector item prices for one of those Lee loaders that wouldn't do what they thought it would in the first place.
lathesmith

[jh45gun]

Not to rain on your parade Lathsmith and not to take away any potential business but in the Backwoodsman Magazine a couple of issues back some one had made a Wooden Loader set up called the 25 cent loader out of scrap wood for loading 12 guage shells and 20 guage one would have to figure out the size of holes for the 410. It was a simple loading system using a block of wood with several holes drilled for holding the shells a dowel set in one area for primeing the hulls and a nail for a punch and a piece of PVC or dowel to seat the wad. For Crimping he cut the hulls off at the crimp and used a over the shot wad glued in place. Crude yea but it looked like it would work and for decapping a decapping rod from most dies would work if they were under the 40 cal size so they would fit in the hull and be nicer than using a nail LOL . I have tried using my Lyman universal decapping die and it works fine only until I adapt a shell holder to make the hole big enough to drop 209 primers through you need omit that holder to make it work so the primers will come out. If a person wanted to still use a standard crimp I would suspect a Mec Crimp starter for a couple of bucks would work and then come up with a dowel the right size to finish pushing down the crimp this could be accomplished with modifying the plans in the magazine with longer hole all the way through that would fit the hull and have some room at the top for a dowel to fit to finish form the crimp. Yea cruder than your machined tool kit but it would work for little cash outlay if some one needed to load some shells and could not find a loader with in their budget.

[725]

lathesmith,
Whatver you decide will probably be just fine with me. I've just wanted a Lee tool for so long and just won't get off the jingle to pay the going rate for the "rare as hens teeth" Lee. I think a decapping pin from any of the other Lee smash & load kits would be good for this kit, if that would make it any cheaper/easier. You can count me in if you get into this project.

Next I want to figure out how to make a wad cutter to operate on a single stage press. ??? screw in die with a side slot and a ram cutter ???

725

[oldtoolsniper]

I have a RCBS 12 gauge single stage (for the rockchucker) set of loading dies I would be willing to loan you if it will help with the design. I have a Taurus Judge that is dying to be fed some 2 ½” 410 shells. Count me in for one.

[bremington]

Well its been awhile since theres been any activity. Anything new? All the depriming, repriming powder measuring, wad, shot is easy, how about crimping? Thats what I would be intrested in. I have a 12 ga. Lee loader and find it fun to do. Not as fast as my Mec, but fun to do all the same. I measure all the powder charges on the scale and glue in over shot cards but would like to crimp.

[Mk42gunner]

Lathesmith,

Small world, I started reloading in 1975 or 76 to feed an H&R 410 with a Lee 410 loader, a bag of 7 1/2 shot, Remington wads and primers and I'll never forget the pound of Herco poured into a paper sack.

When I saw the outlandish prices these things are going for I went looking for my old loading kit, unfortunately I couldn't find the one for 410. It would take considerably less than $100 to convince me to let mine go.

From what I remember the shell didn't get resized because the cases stuck every time in both my brother's and my guns.

There was a spacer (about 1/8") for Remington shells to be able to crimp them. To seat primers the top of the rammer was flat and sat in the die body. the one I had came with one powder dipper (red) and three shot dippers (black) of 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 OZ when all the 3" shell needed 11/16 OZ of shot.

Crimps with plastic shells were laughable at best, I never loaded any paper ones.

FWIW I like the way Woody uses a 308 die to load his.

It's a wonder I ever tried any other Lee products after Dad inflicted the 410 loader on me.

Robert

[Turn4fun]

Great thread!

Lathesmith and Turbo, do either of you have a working prototype? Just wondered how they came out. The .410 was my first love as a 7 year old boy and I'm still pretty fond of it 33 years later. Unfortunately with today's prices reloading is the only economical way to feed a .410.

Turbo I really like your design, the only critique I have is the number of pieces. I've often thought of something halfway between a Lee Loader and your design. I've got a simple desin in my head but I haven't built it yet.

Last year I set out to build my own version of the Lee. I started building the die body on my lathe but then a nearly mint old style (no plastic) deluxe lee loader came up on ebay with a "buy it now" price that I couldn't pass up so I abandoned my project. While it is a neat tool, actually loading with it leaves a lot to be desired, mainly the crimp. Not only do the crimps suck (at best) but the tool does not resize as I had thought. Back to the drawing board. The one thing I did learn from the Lee is that since it doesn't size, the die's only real function is crimping which it doesn't do well so it basically can be eliminated. The wad guide is nice but doesn't really seem necessary so it could be eliminated too. Besides the shot and powder dippers, the only parts that really seem usable are the decapping and priming rods. I don't really have a need to resize with my gun and soon I realized that a small hollow base for driving out spent primers, the two rods and a way to close the shell were all I need. Eventually I decided that roll crimping would be the way to go so out to the lathe I went and this is what I came up with.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/Turn4fun/410set.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/Turn4fun/100_2597.jpg

This set works really well for me. The hull conditioning tool was made simply because a had a short, tapered piece of brass in my scrap bin. The "whackit" method is not necessary as I've found that hand pressure alone is enough to drive out and seat primers. The roll crimper produces rolls that are better than factory roll crimps. I've recently come up with a design for a fold crimp closer but I've yet to build it.

Although I really like my load set and it produces consistent results, it is a slow process. I decided something more automated would be nice so I set out to convert a Lee Load All. One trip to a local gun show was all it took find a good Load All with all it's parts for $20. It was the old style with the metal base and was for 20 ga. All it took was a little lathe work and some time in the wood shop to fabricate a new carrier. A sizing ring was made and brass sleeves to fit inside a couple of the shot and powder bushings. The original carrier had both 6 and 8 point crimp starters but I obviously only needed a 6 point for the .410 so I incorporated a MEC spindex starter into my new carrier and it works great. It's great for putting a bunch of shells together quickly but I much prefer using my hand set. The nice thing is that it converts back to 20 ga. in a snap. If I could find someone to cheaply produce the carrier I would market a conversion kit. Sorry I don't have any pictures of it right now but I'll try to get some posted soon.

[nz_watcher]

I use 303Br dies to reload 410, use overpowder disk, lubed wad, and over shot disk, then run the fulled case into the 303 resizer. This closes the front of the case. Not rolled, possibly not work in an autoloader, but sure as not, breaks clays and the rats that fester the range

[JIMinPHX]

I had a quick go at this sort of thing about a year & a half ago. I whipped up a quick little gizmo that sort of worked, but I never came up with a crimp starter die that I liked. I ended up starting my crimps by using my thumb nail to get the old creases going again. You can see my little misadventures with that starting around post number 17 of this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20002

Fell free to use any ideas I came up with there. I'd love to see you get something like that on the market.

I wrote a letter to Lee a long time ago, asking to either bring back the 410 Lee Loader or else start making the Load All in 410. I said that I wanted to buy one of the first ones. I never even got a reply.

[steg]

I have a set of 3'' and 2 1/2'' a friend found them for me in an old-timers gunshop, they cost me a whopping $5.00 apiece, highway robbery, LOL. Actually they both work fine, and you can load the 3" hulls with the 2 1/2" set, the only problem that I ran into was seating the primers, the driving tool gets stuck in the bases of the hulls at times.

[steg]

oops forgot they are 410 lee loaders, its 3:30 am now that's my excuse and I'm sticken to it!

[TDC]

Put me down for one if a workable design is found...

[Deadeye]

Seems to me you fellers are making this way more difficult than it needs to be. I put together the set-up in the picture below for less than $10.00. The block on the left is my de/reprimer. The screw driver bit holder with a #20 torx head bit works great for depriming, without the bit for repriming.

The block on the right has a 3/8 external pipe threaded copper pipe fitting mounted in it that resizes the 410 hulls better than the Lee loader. It does take a rubber or plastic mallet to drive them in and the bit holder & mallet to drive them out. After running the thru it they are resized back to factory dimensions. It just takes a little lapping & polishing of the inside of the copper fitting (case lube on brass hull base) to get it working well.

I don't bother with a crimp (never used a handloader that crimped worth a **** any way). An overshot card & hot glue works very well.:redneck:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/Deadeye61/002-14.jpg

[billw]

I use 444 Marlin brass for loading my old 410 H&R SS 2 1/2" chamber, either plastic shot cups or I cut my own wads for the few loads I need. I would like to have a Lee Loader but don't think it is necessary for loading paper shells and even plastics can be crimp folded with some effort using a steel pipe body for the hulls and wood dowel to force the crimp. I have had a 12 Ga Lee Loader since 1960+ and loaded all paper shells with no difficulty, even loaded them without the Lee Loader and later bought a Lee Load All for plastic crimping, still make better paper crimps with the Lee Loader rather than the Load All. The roll crimp tool I have in 12 Ga does work with a drill motor but a drill press is necessary for any large numbers of loads. I use a fold crimp for slug and buck shot, folding the crimp well inward in order to see the slug and OS for buck, easy to ID the slug or write the load data on the OS wad, have two Lee Key slug moulds and cast my own 00 and #4 buck, slow but sure casting one at a time.

[JIMinPHX]

I just stumbled across this thread again. I had sort of half forgotten about it.

I ended up doing quite a bit more work on making my little gizmo work better. In the end, I wound up with something that produced good shells in either 2.5" or 3" using Win HS hulls.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20002&page=3

I ended up scrapping the idea though, due to safety concerns. The idea of putting your hand over a loaded shotgun shell inside a metal tube & pushing down on it seemed a little too scary for me to want to sell them to the public. This concern was compounded when I found out that Lee stopped producing all of their shotshell Lee Loaders, not just the .410. Lee would never tell me why.

I've sent copies of my drawings to another board member that is working on making a version that will screw into a standard 7/8-14 thread single stage reloading press. Hopefully, he will come up with a workable design to sell.

Lathesmith, if you also want to try to pick up where I left off, drop me a PM & I'll see about sending you a set of drawing too.