CVA 54 Cal Hawken overbore issues.

[Fatboyz]

Hi All, I have been shooting muzzleloaders for over 30 years, mostly TC hawkens and Traditions Great Plains rifle. About 45 years ago my dad bought a CVA 54 caliber Hawken. He bought it as a kit mostly for the fun of the build. He brought it out to my place to shoot it about 25 years ago and I remember that my .530 round balls and .015 patches basically fell down the bore. Fast forward to this spring and my dad passed away and all his guns came to me. I have been getting all his old winchesters etc out of moth balls and out shooting. I took the CVA out this past weekend. The manual for the CVA 54 Hawken says to use a .530 ball and .015 patch. When we shot it I used a .530 ball and 2, .015 patches and it still was just an easy push down the barrel. When I cleaned it at home I measured the bore with a caliper and it measured .565. My TC 54 Hawken measured .540. What gives here?Do I just use a .530 ball and real thick patch material? I also took one of my 54 cal Lee REAL bullets and it just fell down the barrel? Any advice is appreciated. My dad did such a nice job on the build I want to get this thing shooting and get a deer with it this fall! P.S, the barrel is clearly marked 54 caliber.

[Geezer in NH]

Needs bigger round balls, or you measured groove diameter. Bore is land to land.

[LAGS]

That barrel may have been " Refreshed "
I have had Hoyt do a couple of them for me.
They came out with a little deeper rifling , but I just used different balls or thicker patches.

[RU shooter]

Id remeasure the barrel (land to land) and see if you get the same reading. And look for a ball size that will work for it . I don’t think a very undersized ball and a double patch is conductive to good accuracy .

[Fatboyz]

That barrel may have been " Refreshed "
I have had Hoyt do a couple of them for me.
They came out with a little deeper rifling , but I just used different balls or thicker patches.

Nope, my dad had it since new as a kit. It's only been fired 4-5 times since he built it. Will re measure it.

[Fatboyz]

Id remeasure the barrel (land to land) and see if you get the same reading. And look for a ball size that will work for it . I don’t think a very undersized ball and a double patch is conductive to good accuracy .

That was my thoughts as well. Bigger ball and patch to match. The other thing is I have shot Sabots out of my TC with great success. I have 54 Caliber Sabots for a 44 bullet. They are a nice snug fit in my TC but the Sabot and bullet is "sloppy" in the CVA and can be just dropped down the barrel.

[Sasquatch-1]

Sounds like you could use old flannel shirts and still not have a tight ball. Do you have any lead you could slug the barrel with?

[waksupi]

Sounds like you need to find around a .540 ball mold and pillow ticking.

Try Tanner Molds. https://www.ballmoulds.com/

Don't be put off by them being made in England. I have several of their molds, and delivery was unbelievably fast. There are probably other mold makers who would do the job, but these are a good place to start.

If you can find some .535 balls, they may do the trick. Track of the Wolf may have them.

[725]

You can "slug" the bore without opening the breech. Oil the barrel well. Drop a heavy brass rod (about a foot or better into the barrel. Pound your lead in a short distance. Just not up to the brass rod as you will need space to let the brass rod push it back out. Shake the gun up and down so as to let the brass rod bounce into the lead slug. Takes a short time and the lead & rod will come out. Viola ! You have a slug to measure that accurately reflects the dimensions you are dealing with. Good luck.

[LAGS]

I use .535 balls in several of my .54s
On one , I have to use a thicker patch ( .020 )
The other a ( .015 )

[Fatboyz]

Just remeasured the barrel with a digital caliper as far into the muzzle, about .75cm. Diameter Land to Land was .557", and Groove to Groove was .581". Again checked the stamping on the barrel and its marked 54 caliber?

[LAGS]

Question,
How many grooves are in the barrel.
You can not get accurate measurements with a caliper on a 5 groove barrel since everything does not line up directly across the bore.

[Fatboyz]

8 grooves. Might have to slug the barrel. Never done it before though.

[HWooldridge]

Try a thicker patch(s) and see how well it shoots - might surprise you. I knew an old guy who shot a .62 rifle and used greased doeskin patches. I never measured one but they looked to be relatively thick. He’d occasionally find one after being shot and would reuse it (did I mention he lived through the Depression)?

[LAGS]

It does give you the most accurate measurement if you slug the barrel.
The suggestion of using a price of brass rod in the barrel to pound out the slug works good.
But it does take a little time and patients.
But the results are Well worth it.
I also make up a little tool so I can Cast Epoxy in the barrel and pull it out the bore end.
It is basically a threaded rod or long bolt.
Some washers that fit the barrel with a patch sealing it off.
To pull the epoxy slug out of the barrel.
I use a section of pipe and some nuts and washers.
You place the pipe over the threaded rod sticking out of the bore.
And use a nut and washer to draw the rod and slug out the barrel.
Two things also.
Use a release agent in the bore. ( Johnson's paste Wax )
You also should use a Hard Epoxy like JB Weld or stock bedding compound.
Most quick 5 minute epoxy is softer and a little sticky when hard.
I make epoxy slugs to use for lapping the inside of the barrel with polishing compound on a cleaning rod.

[Fatboyz]

Some good things to try before I order custom molds from England. need to find a brass rod now and maybe If I flatten a lee REAl 54 bullet a bit to make it bigger I can use that for my slug.

[Fatboyz]

Will be looking for some type of thick cotton material to try before I get too carried away with new molds etc.

[LAGS]

Try old Blue Jean Material.
On an old pair of pants , you can find many thicknesses due to wear.

[Fatboyz]

I've heard that about blue jeans, got a few pairs of old "fat pants", maybe the bigger the waist size the thicker the material! lol.
Just slugged the barrel with a squished REAL bullet, worked really slick! Groove to Groove is .590, and land to land is .570.
Going to try some thick patches this weekend and see what happens. If I can't find something that works I'll look at a larger ball mold. I already have a great 50 cal flinter and the TC Hawken percussion for hunting, but getting this shooting good, along with the model 94, 32-40, and the model 92, 44-40 I got when my dad passed a month ago is something I need to do.

[LAGS]

Do you happen to know what your rifling Twist is.
You might be able to look into Slugs or Sabots if you have a faster twist in the rifling.
Faster than 1:48 will work for heavy slugs or minies.
Lee and others make some slug molds that are .575 or .580 diameter.

[Fatboyz]

I'm unsure of twist. My TC is 1:48 and it really shoots sabots with a 265 GR 44 pistol bullet great. I live in Alberta and we have a cast bullet maker Jet bullets (https://jetbullets.com/) he makes a soft cast bullet for the 577 snider that is 425 grains. I wonder if that would work?

[Fatboyz]

What's the possibility that this is a 58 cal barrel they stamped wrongly as a 54? A .562 round ball for a 58 cal sounds like it might be the ticket?

[Gtrubicon]

I’ve been thinking it was stamped wrong as I read through this thread, anything is possible.

[LAGS]

I am thinking that the barrel might have been rebored by someone like Bobby Hoyt.
I have had several barrels Rebored to a larger caliber because the barrel was rusted bad when I bought them.
I then have to Re Stamp the barrel and file off the old caliber markings.
( Or , just solder a oval brass plate over the old stampings ) then stamp that brass plate with the new caliber.

[Fatboyz]

We have a little local gun shop that has a pretty ok supply of muzzleloader supplies (as good as expected these days) will give them a call and see if he might have some 58 cal round balls.

[Fatboyz]

I am thinking that the barrel might have been rebored by someone like Bobby Hoyt.
I have had several barrels Rebored to a larger caliber because the barrel was rusted bad when I bought them.
I then have to Re Stamp the barrel and file off the old caliber markings.
( Or , just solder a oval brass plate over the old stampings ) then stamp that brass plate with the new caliber.
No chance. My dad bought this kit maybe about 45 years ago, he only shot it once with me since then and that was 25 ish years ago. He’s had it since he built it.

[Fatboyz]

Had a chat with a couple folks from Hillfolk Musket supplies and the Alberta Black powder Shooters Association. One has a CVA Mountain rifle in 58 cal (Which I have figured out this is a Mountain Rifle as it has 2 Barrel Wedge's as opposed to the Hawken which only has 1), and their rifle has a .570 bore and they shoot .562 round balls from it. This is also the info provide din the CVA sidelock Manual as shown below. I'm definitely leaning towards this being a 58 cal stamped as a 54. The year of manufacture for the 58 Cal Mountain rifle aligns with the year my dad got this kit.
TABLE 1
CALIBER PROJECTILE PATCH CHARGES IN GRAINS
FIREARM DUAMETER-TYPE THICKNESS/INCHES MINIMUM MAXIMUM
.32 RIFLE .310 ROUND BALL .015 10 FFFG 30 FFFG
.36 RIFLE .350 ROUND BALL .015 40 FFFG 60 FFFG
.45 RIFLE .440 ROUND BALL .015 50 FFG 80 FFG
.50 RIFLE .490 ROUND BALL .015 50 FFG 100 FFG
.54 RIFLE .530 ROUND BALL .015 60 FFG 120 FFG
.58 RIFLE .562 ROUND BALL .020 60 FFG 120 FFG

[Gtrubicon]

Were you able to get some 58 round balls to give it a go?

[Fatboyz]

I talked to the fella from the Alberta Black Powder shooters as he bought out Hillfolk musket supplies. He lives in Edmonton and has 58 cal round balls. I'm going to get my daughter to stop over and pick some up and bring them down next time she comes home. He is going to give me a handful to try. He is pretty convinced this is a 58 Cal CVA mountain rifle with it being slugged at .570". I will dry fit some (brass rod in the barrel, no powder, just like slugging) with a couple different patch thicknesses and see what looks like its not too tight a fit and doesn't cut the patch then go try with some FFG!

[indian joe]

I've heard that about blue jeans, got a few pairs of old "fat pants", maybe the bigger the waist size the thicker the material! lol.
Just slugged the barrel with a squished REAL bullet, worked really slick! Groove to Groove is .590, and land to land is .570.
Going to try some thick patches this weekend and see what happens. If I can't find something that works I'll look at a larger ball mold. I already have a great 50 cal flinter and the TC Hawken percussion for hunting, but getting this shooting good, along with the model 94, 32-40, and the model 92, 44-40 I got when my dad passed a month ago is something I need to do.

Thats a 58 barrel !! CVA made em (at least for the Mountain rifle) - LEE makes a 562 ball mold and also a 575 mold - the 562 a tad on the skinny side but with a pillow ticking patch should work ok? .575 will be tight for the first couple hundred but proly best bet in the long run.

I have two 54 CVA Hawkens barrels, 87 vintage, measure .535 x 555 (rough and quick with calipers) they both shoot fine with a 530 ball and calico patch, or get a bit serious and use pillow ticking patch. They both will take a .535 ball but dont have that size mold - aint broke why fix it?

You have yourself a serious piece of equipment - t'would be a shame to not harvest a deer or hog or two with it

[Fatboyz]

Thats a 58 barrel !! CVA made em (at least for the Mountain rifle) - LEE makes a 562 ball mold and also a 575 mold - the 562 a tad on the skinny side but with a pillow ticking patch should work ok? .575 will be tight for the first couple hundred but proly best bet in the long run.

I have two 54 CVA Hawkens barrels, 87 vintage, measure .535 x 555 (rough and quick with calipers) they both shoot fine with a 530 ball and calico patch, or get a bit serious and use pillow ticking patch. They both will take a .535 ball but dont have that size mold - aint broke why fix it?

You have yourself a serious piece of equipment - t'would be a shame to not harvest a deer or hog or two with it

I have some .570 round balls on their way. I agree on wanting to get a deer with it. We don't have hogs here in Alberta but I can get 2 mule Deer doe tags over on the prairie side of the province. And if I got one with this rifle and one with my dads old model 94 32-40 with a BP cartridge that would be a fantastic!

[indian joe]

I have some .570 round balls on their way. I agree on wanting to get a deer with it. We don't have hogs here in Alberta but I can get 2 mule Deer doe tags over on the prairie side of the province. And if I got one with this rifle and one with my dads old model 94 32-40 with a BP cartridge that would be a fantastic!

34 years ago a two part gun mag review "The CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle" was what propelled me into the world of muzzleloader shooting - I searched high and low and never found one! - have had ownership of Ten CVA's over the years - still shoot a CVA as my regular club gun - the locks are ordinary (but fixable) - cheap wood - but I never saw a CVA barrel that would not shoot right up there with the best.

[Fatboyz]

My dad did such a nice job building this one! I remember him putting the barrel in the oven to warm it up before he did the plumb browning. I think I was maybe 14 so that would put it at about 1979-1980 ish. This rifle really deserves to be shot and it's been sitting in the gun cabinet waiting to harvest a deer!

[bgmkithaca]

Many years ago I had a .58 Cal. mountain rifle and it had about the same bore dimensions as yours. It seems like it had a 1-66 twist and I shot a Lee REAL
315 Grain bullet with 100 Grains of FFG in it. The accuracy was excellent and killed quite well. The mold has been obsolete for years but you might luck out
and find one somewhere. Mine went with the rifle when it got traded off. I never used round balls in it to make a suggestion on and heavier bullets would not
shoot worth spit. Good luck getting yours shooting, if it is like the one I had you will be pleased.

[scattershot]

You can determine the twist of that barrel easily. Use a jag with a tight fitting patch, and insert it all the way into the barrel. Mark the end of the ramrod at the muzzle, with a little tic also for the location of the front sight. Then, withdraw the ramrod slowly, until the little tic you made has rotated 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the muzzle to the original mark, and multiply by four. That’s your twist rate.

[Fatboyz]

You can determine the twist of that barrel easily. Use a jag with a tight fitting patch, and insert it all the way into the barrel. Mark the end of the ramrod at the muzzle, with a little tic also for the location of the front sight. Then, withdraw the ramrod slowly, until the little tic you made has rotated 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the muzzle to the original mark, and multiply by four. That’s your twist rate.
Sounds like a good plan while I'm waiting for round balls. Next time I'm up in Edm. I'm going to visit the fella who bought out Hillfolk Musket supplies. He has a bunch of molds and shoots a lot of 58 cal himself. Maybe I'll be lucky and find some type of Minnie/Maxi/REAL or the like!

[indian joe]

Sounds like a good plan while I'm waiting for round balls. Next time I'm up in Edm. I'm going to visit the fella who bought out Hillfolk Musket supplies. He has a bunch of molds and shoots a lot of 58 cal himself. Maybe I'll be lucky and find some type of Minnie/Maxi/REAL or the like!

Early CVA - 1:66 twist (unless the 58 was slower again) they were made for patched roundball - that ball will kill anything you point it at within the range you can accurately shoot it with open sights - yeah you can make it work with faux projectiles (some maybe) but a CVA barrel with patched ball is about as easy and un fussy as it gets with a muzzleloader
If that was mine (I wish) I'd start out with a 575 ball, calico patch, 100grains of FFgoex - if we blew patches - put a backer patch (1" calico) or a card wad down on the powder - 570 ball? pillow ticking patch and more powder - smilie=w: .............................

[sharps4590]

joe beat me to it. As I was reading the thread I was thinking, that's a Big Bore Mountain rifle. Seems to me a ball and patch being that loose would have prompted investigation a long time ago. It ain't rocket science, it's just measurin'.

[Fatboyz]

joe beat me to it. As I was reading the thread I was thinking, that's a Big Bore Mountain rifle. Seems to me a ball and patch being that loose would have prompted investigation a long time ago. It ain't rocket science, it's just measurin'.

As I said earlier. THis wasn't my rifle. My dad shot it once 25 years or so ago, and it has sat in the cabinet since. He passed away a month ago and I brought it home. A barrel stamped 54, your thoughts are it's a 54, try some thick patching, and what the heck!

[indian joe]

As I said earlier. THis wasn't my rifle. My dad shot it once 25 years or so ago, and it has sat in the cabinet since. He passed away a month ago and I brought it home. A barrel stamped 54, your thoughts are it's a 54, try some thick patching, and what the heck!

a sidebar --- yes I have been a fan of CVA's - however every one of them that I have had in my hands has had something wrong with it - from minor parts missing from the first kit I bought -- to -- end cap screws almost penetrating the rifling (raised a bump inside) of a fully finished Pennsylvania rifle. I had this mental picture of a little spanish quality control guy at the end of the production line - theres a conveyor belt marked USA taking boxes of number ones away and beside him is a big box that says "seconds for Australia??" ........so a misbranded barrel would be no surprise to me .......most of the CVA's downunder came from one particular supplier and almost all of them I have seen are 87 vintage, all of which kind of points to a bulk purchase of suspect quality stuff --------thing about it is (after a bit of tinkering) every one of those things shot like a house on fire - they were easy and adaptable to load - whoever figured this out at the start picked the perfect rifling dimensions for a round ball barrel .........sadly they went off making inlines

[Fatboyz]

a sidebar --- yes I have been a fan of CVA's - however every one of them that I have had in my hands has had something wrong with it - from minor parts missing from the first kit I bought -- to -- end cap screws almost penetrating the rifling (raised a bump inside) of a fully finished Pennsylvania rifle. I had this mental picture of a little spanish quality control guy at the end of the production line - theres a conveyor belt marked USA taking boxes of number ones away and beside him is a big box that says "seconds for Australia??" ........so a misbranded barrel would be no surprise to me .......most of the CVA's downunder came from one particular supplier and almost all of them I have seen are 87 vintage, all of which kind of points to a bulk purchase of suspect quality stuff --------thing about it is (after a bit of tinkering) every one of those things shot like a house on fire - they were easy and adaptable to load - whoever figured this out at the start picked the perfect rifling dimensions for a round ball barrel .........sadly they went off making inlines

Thanks for all the helpful Intelligent replies! I haven't much to do with CVA rifles but the few I have dealt with had "issues" of some sort. My daughter is picking up some .570 round balls from the fella from the Alberta Muzzleloader association and she's bringing them down to me this weekend. Should be able to dry fit one or 2 with different patches, then hit the range.
Cheers

[Fatboyz]

Well I got some .570 round balls this weekend. With a .010 patch they were just the ticket. Ninety grains of FF and had good accuracy at 50m.

[Sasquatch-1]

You may want to see about remarking that barrel for the future. :awesome:

[Fatboyz]

You may want to see about remarking that barrel for the future. :awesome:

Good idea! The local custom rifle builder has a laser engraver.

[725]

Glad it worked out in the end. Have fun with it.

[Fatboyz]

Just went out again and shot the last of the .570's I have! Shoots awesome, 4 shots in just under 2 1/2" at 50m.

[LAGS]

Work on your load a bit , and I bet you can get similar results or better at 100 yards

[Fatboyz]

I have a .570 round ball mold on order. Hope to get it tuned up nice to 100 so I can use it for the mule deer doe season we have.

[T-Bird]

That's great, glad this all worked out. Your dad is smiling!

[Fatboyz]

Was going through my dads garage and all his hunting gear this weekend. On a shelf in his garage with a bit of old handloading stuff I found the instruction book from this kit. It was indeed a Big bore Mountain rifle kit. the instructions were generic and didn't specify caliber.