Very light, yet still safe, load for .38 spl

[Krh1326]

Hello everyone!

I am looking to make some very gentle loads, for my disabled FIL. As he says, he’s not done yet.
The issue at hand, is his wrists. Very weak and extremely painful.
He has a Ruger SP101 4” in .357 mag, which he runs .38 spl. The first thing I did, was to get him a Hogue full sized rubber grip, to replace the stock stubby.
I then made up some Lee TL358-158-SWC over 3.1 grs ( suggested start ) of HP-38. He has been enjoying these loads, but I know I can do better… maybe.

He is coming for a family visit, in 2 weeks and I would like to have some even better rounds, for him.
Due to my circumstances , I am limited to the HP-38 ( same as w-231 ) and the molds that I have.
I have the Lee TL358-158-SWC and will have Lee 356-120-TC ( for 9mm) and Lee TL356-95-RF (for .380 ) hopefully today or tomorrow.

If I stay with the 358-158 , is it ever really safe to dip below the suggested starting load? This is a situation where he will visit, I’ll give him the rounds, he will go back home, and try them. I can’t have him squibbing, especially if I’m not there “to make sure”.

Is there any load combo that I can use with either of the 356 molds, that would give him more confidence, and comfort ?

I do powder coat my boolits, and on these special applications, I could apply multiple coats… as I would still run them thru .358 sizer.

The Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook has a 120gr Lyman 356242 listed with a suggested starting load of 3.4 grs of 231. And they have a 90 gr Lyman 356242 ( possible misprint for these two molds ? ) listed with a starting suggested load of 3.5 grs of 231. They also have a 105 gr Lee 358-105-SWC listed, with a suggested starting load of 4.2 grs of 231.

What would be my absolute safest, fail safe, most lightest comfortable combination ?

Thank you all, for your time, and help!

Edit: This man survived combat in Vietnam, survived prostate cancer, survived Leukemia (confirmed agent orange exposure) still battling GvHD from marrow transplants, and he gave me his daughter’s hand in marriage. There is NO WAY in hell, that I am just going to watch him give up something that he enjoys, so much.

[ShooterAZ]

The Lee 105 SWC is a dandy little boolit, and works well for powderpuff loads in the 38 Special. I use mine with 4 grains of Clays powder, it's a surprisingly accurate load. Any fast burning pistol power will work well with it.

[Krh1326]

Thanks for that, unfortunately I do not have that mold, and wouldn’t be able to swing it, in time. But that might be something I could do for him, down the road.

[rintinglen]

If that 120 grain boolit casts large enough, that would be your answer right there. A starting charge of 3.0 grains of HP-38 yields about 725 feet per second from a 4 inch vented barrel, according to my old Lyman 3rd Edition Cast Bullet handbook. That will be a very light recoiling load, and you have what you need to make them already on hand.

I would load them to 1.4" coal and blaze away. They will shoot low, but a little Kentucky windage can help things out.

[Krh1326]

I thank you so much ! My concern, is just not sending him home with a bad batch.

[G W Wade]

You could go to Hodgdon website under Cowboy loads. Range of bullets with a selection of usable powders GW

[Char-Gar]

I have shot many thousands of 158 grain cast over 3.0 Bullseye. Whatever amount of HP-38 that will equal that will give you what you want.

[Krh1326]

Thank you all, for the gold!

[Krh1326]

Char-Gar , I am working on that conversion…. Finding trustworthy data , to me , anyway, is sketchy plus I am not the best mathematician, lol…. But working on it, and I thank you. So far , if I have it correct : 3.8 gr of Bullseye yields 738 fps and 5 grs of 231 ( HP38 ) yields 753 fps. Now working on connecting the dots, lol

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If you've got Bullseye you've got the beginnings of something good. Try 2.5 gr. under a 148 gr. wadcutter, the old PPC load. You can buy the wadcutter bullets commercially. Very accurate out to 50 yards, can shoot all day without fatigue.

DG

[ABJ]

If that 120 grain boolit casts large enough, that would be your answer right there. A starting charge of 3.0 grains of HP-38 yields about 725 feet per second from a 4 inch vented barrel, according to my old Lyman 3rd Edition Cast Bullet handbook. That will be a very light recoiling load, and you have what you need to make them already on hand.

I would load them to 1.4" coal and blaze away. They will shoot low, but a little Kentucky windage can help things out.

My thoughts exactly if recoil reduction is the main goal. Since the 9mm has no crimp groove, just a firm taper crimp on the bore riding section just under where the nose taper starts. If that mold will drop at .358. Same thing on the lighter boolit if it drops big enough.

Looking into the future, as ShooterAZ points out a six cavity lee 105 swc is a great boolit. Well worth the investment.
Tony

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar , I am working on that conversion…. Finding trustworthy data , to me , anyway, is sketchy plus I am not the best mathematician, lol…. But working on it, and I thank you. So far , if I have it correct : 3.8 gr of Bullseye yields 738 fps and 5 grs of 231 ( HP38 ) yields 753 fps. Now working on connecting the dots, lol

My load is 3.0 grains and NOT 3.8 grains of Bullseye. I think your 3.8 is a typo, as the velocity sounds right for 3.0.

[Krh1326]

My load is 3.0 grains and NOT 3.8 grains of Bullseye. I think your 3.8 is a typo, as the velocity sounds right for 3.0.

I did get that… but searching the forums, I found someone using fps data to estimate, and their example was 3.8… I’m trying figure out that stupid ratio equation from math class sooooooo many years ago,lol.

3.8 is to 5 as 3 is to ?

[45DUDE]

If you've got Bullseye you've got the beginnings of something good. Try 2.5 gr. under a 148 gr. wadcutter, the old PPC load. You can buy the wadcutter bullets commercially. Very accurate out to 50 yards, can shoot all day without fatigue.

DG

That is exactly the load I use in my Colt N,M. 38 special 1911.

[Greekboi95]

What about Titegroup with a light charge of 3.5gr 158gr RNFP?

Sent from my ELS-NX9 using Tapatalk

[dverna]

2.5-2.7 of Clays with 125-130 gr bullets in .38 cases. Have fired over 25k in a variety of pistols and carbines. Never had a stuck bullet.

Just over 1” groups at 30 yards in a Marlin 1894.

[Hi-Speed]

2.7 grs Bullseye and 148 gr HBWC (loaded flush) is a nice soft shooting load and is legendarily accurate.

[Krh1326]

I thank you all, so much.

[Sam Sackett]

Try 3.0 of HP 38 with your lightest bullet. Reducing bullet weigh directly reduces recoil. Then just Chootem!

Sam Sackett

[IridiumRed]

If his hands are big enough (and fingers long enough) try some padded gloves too. Or, as simple expedient (to see if it works) put a couple of wraps of foam tape around the grips. Doesn't necessarily take a lot to soften up the impact quite a bit. Sometimes a little bit less feels like a lot less.....

If you go with gloves, cut off the last half of the trigger finger, so its still finger on trigger, not trying to work through some mushy feeling...

The wadcutter loads (like 2.7 w a 148) suggested above will be pretty low recoil. Just about as low as you can get before going to a .22..... and not a hot loaded .22 either. Pretty minimal recoil

he could try a wrist brace as well, something to take up the slack, give some support so it doesnt all go thru his joints

Anyways. its nice of you to take care of him like that, i respect that :)

Edited to add -

I just reread your post, i overlooked you were limited on powder type

Heres one thing that can make a big difference when it comes to light loads. Big case and small charge of powder (relatively..... am speaking of when the case is only a little bit full, lots of empty space) if you're going on the light end, and worry about getting a squib / bullet that doesn't exit..... try seating the bullet deeper. It only takes a small reduction in space to really increase the pressure, burning, and get that bullet out of the barrel.

Be careful tho, dont go too deep too quick, or bad things can happen. Pressure goes up quick! But with lead bullets it doesn't take that much to get them out of the barrel, as long as the powder actually burns, and you dont have a huge barrel cylinder gap, rough barrel, etc etc........... Just a piece of advice on loading that can be a useful tool :)

[P Flados]

I got my wife a 38 LCRx. The gun is very light and she was very displeased at the recoil from my first batch of ammo using a starting charge and 120 gr bullets.

I played around a bunch and found a she was happy with my lightest bullet, a Lee 102 RN (mine drop at 108), pushed to around 615 fps using TG or Red Dot. Since I started loading them for her, I found them to be more than adequate for a lot of my shooting. This includes 4 different handguns and one rifle. I have loaded thousands of these and they work great.

If you really want help, tell us the lightest bullet you are willing to use, and tell us the powders you have available. Someone will probably chime in with a proven load and/or someone like me will use Quickload to come up with something.

Alternately, you may find a nice load at the link below. I saw some 120s and 125s with posted velocities under 600 fps.
https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/38-special/

[JoeJames]

I did some testing with Win231 and a 4" Model 15 and a 4" Model 67 and came up with these results:
VELOCITY TESTING - 38 SPECIAL

WIN 231-HP-38
MODEL 67 4" - 2/24/19 w/ sky screens
4.1 grains WIN 231 & 158 - 160 gr lead bullet SWC -
803, 818, 769, 781, 770 fps - average 788fps

MODEL 15 4"
4.0 grains WIN 231 & 158 - 160 gr lead bullet SWC -
average 792 fps

BULLSEYE
MODEL 67 4"
3.8 grains Bullseye & 158 gr Speer swaged SWC -
763, 782, 773, 774 fps - average 773 fps

MODEL 15 4"
3.8 grains Win 231 & 158 gr Speer swaged SWC -
760, 784, 783, 792, 791, 749, 783 FPS - average 777 fps

But like someone once said each revolver is a law unto itself. I am sure the above results will not be the same as you get in the Ruger. May shoot slower or faster due to chamber and groove diameters, etc.

[Kosh75287]

Years ago there was a controversy about the classic 2.7/Bullseye/148 gr. HBWC load "detonating" rather than burning, in .38 Spl. cases. I think the final culprit was ultimately found to be one or more double-charges somewhere.
While I can see how it COULD be problematic to go far below recommended starting loads, I cannot imagine a case in which going 10% lower would buy you any trouble. There IS some risk of a load being so light that the projectile does not exit the barrel. This is a significant hazard for revolver shooters who drastically reduce powder charges (say, for indoor practice). Again, it is difficult for me to imagine this trouble from a 10% reduction below minimum, particularly when using propellants with a burning rate similar to Bullseye.

Depending on the distances involved, you MIGHT also consider finding data for loading 000 Buck shotgun pellets over very light charges of HP-38. One of the old SPEER manuals had such data, and my "band of reprobates" tried some just for fun. They had essentially no recoil and were more accurate than most of us, out to 50 feet. Propellants like Bullseye, W231 (HP-38 by another name) and IMR 700-X were used, and no charge weight exceeded 2.0 grains.
As I remember, we merely pressed the .36" lead balls into the belled (and pawder charged) case until they were flush, and then "taper crimped" them, as one would do with an auto pistol round. No significant amount of "roll crimp", as is commonly used in revolver rounds, was used in these.
Just a thought.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

see post #8

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?370574-38-Spl-How-slow-is-too-slow

posted by Outpost75

In my experience lubricated lead bullets will exit a rifle barrel down to about 600 fps, but jacketed bullets have greater bore drag and don't seal the bore as well, so require higher velocities of about 800 fps to be sure of reliable bore exit. In a 2" .38 Special revolver you can maintain reliable bore exit of lubricated lead bullets down to about 450 fps.

[fecmech]

You have the answer with your Lee 95gr .380 bullet. I have the original Ranch Dog mold for that bullet and played with it in my K-38 some years back. Loaded over 4.5 grs of Bullseye it does 850fps out of a 6" bbl and benched 12 shot 50yd (Yes 50yd) groups avg 2-2.5". Recoil will be considerably less than 158's and you can always back down from 4.5BE for even less recoil. Good luck.
PS. That 4.5BE would be about 5.2/231. That will give you the same speed (as my BE load) and you obviously can go lower as start for the 105 is 4.2/231.

[MT Gianni]

For reduced recoil the easiest way is to reduce bullet weight.

[bigdog454]

I haave used 38 S&W loads with good success, by setting the bullet deep in the 38 spec. case to 38 S&W OAL
BD

[Soundguy]

If you ever can, find a 95gr Lrn.. I make cowboy loads with them and shoot in a 38spl converted colt open top ( Richards Mason style ). I load over trail boss. About as mild as you can get.

[poppy42]

I worked up a load for a Lyman 358345 SWC, about 113 grns with my alloy. For a powder I used 3.2 grns of sr7625. It had the report and recoil of a 22lr! Unfortunately 7625 was discontinued about five years ago. I called hodgen and inquired what powder I could use in its place of 7625 once I ran out. The answer I received was titegroup. I have not tried titegroup, nor am I endorsing it as a replacement. If you can find this mold and don’t have Access to 7625 and want to try titegroup, I can’t emphasize enough proceed with caution! I do not assume for one second that is a one for one replacement! I’m merely posting this to let you know that their answer is out there. I believe Lee makes a couple lightweight 9mm/38caliber molds also. If I were you I would first try and find a mold or a bullet preferably semi wadcutter if not round nose of similar weight that I mentioned. Then I searched through any reloading manuals I had access to find any load data in 38 special for that weight bullet and work from there. If by any chance you could duplicate the mold and powder that I used, boy that load is the cats meow! My 9year old granddaughter has fired it with no problems! Except she has to use a sandbag rest cause she said, and I quote:”poppy this gun is awful heavy” it’s a Smith and Wesson model 10 with a 4 inch barrel LOL! I’ve even been asked who makes that 22? lol. Hope any of this helps
Have fun and be safe

[Soundguy]

Titegroup is snappy..i wouldn't download any of the pistol loads.. Cast loads are as low as it gets for tg. There are a few rifle reduced loads..like for 5.56..but it's rare.

[derek45]

3.0 CLAYS 120-130gr

https://i.imgur.com/drIF7eu.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY3XP8Ghe1E

[Rich/WIS]

krh1326, the NRA reloading book had an article about low power loads in 38 SPCL and how to develop them. If you don't have that reference I can copy and snail mail it to you. The loads used Bullseye and were in the 1.25 range, but POA/POI were way apart with fixed sights.

[P Flados]

Titegroup is snappy..i wouldn't download any of the pistol loads.. Cast loads are as low as it gets for tg. There are a few rifle reduced loads..like for 5.56..but it's rare.

Any basis for the above?? I kind of get tired at people bashing a powder or saying it won't do something with no real basis.

TG is fast burning, easy to ignite and meters great at very low charges. Red Dot / Promo are also fast burning and easy to ignite, but not as good about small charge metering. 700x, clays and other fast flake shotgun/pistol powders all seem to work about the same as Red Dot.

I have used Promo and TG a lot while working down to mouse fart loads (pistol and bottle neck). I frequently have been well "off the map" with off odd little cartridges and/or very light bullets not in any manual for my rounds. Never once had a stuck bullet due to working down to light loads, or any other powder related problem with my mouse fart adventures.

[Krh1326]

I can’t thank you all, enough. We had an amazing day at the range, and he was so happy. I was able to make such a spread of loads for him to play with. I actually had loads that were excessively light, and we were able to rule them right out. The lightest was the 95 gr boolit that I use in .380 over 3.1 grs HP-38. It went POP, then a minute later, there was a hole in the target, lol. It looks like he’s in the range of 105 gr over 4 grs, 120 and 125 over 3.5, and 158 over 3.4.
Thanks to all of you that helped, I’ll be able to load him up with many many rounds to take back home, and refine even further.
Thanks again.

[ChuckJaxFL]

Depending on the distances involved, you MIGHT also consider finding data for loading 000 Buck shotgun pellets over very light charges of HP-38. One of the old SPEER manuals had such data, and my "band of reprobates" tried some just for fun. They had essentially no recoil and were more accurate than most of us, out to 50 feet. Propellants like Bullseye, W231 (HP-38 by another name) and IMR 700-X were used, and no charge weight exceeded 2.0 grains.
As I remember, we merely pressed the .36" lead balls into the belled (and pawder charged) case until they were flush, and then "taper crimped" them, as one would do with an auto pistol round. No significant amount of "roll crimp", as is commonly used in revolver rounds, was used in these.
Just a thought.

302080
302079

This is the perfect recommendation for what you’re trying to do. I’m using 2.5 grain of TrailBoss. I run them through a 358 sizer to put an equator ring, and I lubed with a super thin coat of alox.

Fun, quiet, squirrel-head accurate out to 30 yards with my Marlin, soda can accurate to about the same with my 686.

You’ll get many shots per pound of lead, and casting 18 rounds per cast is kind of convenient, too.

[Shadow9mm]

so my recommendation would be Hodgdon Clays. I did some testing a while back. I was testing some 38spl in a 6in barrel GP 100 and a 1.87in barrel Ruger LCR, a very light snubbie. I had worked up some loads with Power Pistol and HP-38 for my 6in gun. but found the velocities were inconsistent in the short barrel and there was a lot of unburnt powder (shot a ballistics gel block at point blank and it looked like it had used a pepper grinder on the front of the block) so I theorized that a faster burning powder would get a more complete burn in the shorter barrel. I picked up a pound of Clays and decided to test again. The result was, at Hodgdons max of 3.1g with a 158g bullet, I could shoot that light snubbie all days long without it hurting my hand at all, and that was with a max charge. Granted velocities were not fantastic, 690fps, SD 18.18, ES 59 wit 15rnds tested. But the loads were super light and fun to shoot. My friend tried them in his SP 101. he found they all shot rather high from point of aim, but in that heavier steel gun they were well less than 9mm, and light for 38spl.