No use for FMJ

[Wolfdog91]

Am I the only one who never really buys or reloads FMJ ? Don't really have a purpose for it since all my shooting just kinda falls back to trying to put a round in a critter. Dont like having to change my zeros ( nothing like missing a coyote because your zeroed for FMJ but slapped in a VMAX , ask me how I know lol) all the time and that whole " good nuff pie plate accuracy dont still well with me) so I just load stuff I can actually hunt with. I mean don't get me wrong you can hunt with FMJ.....but head shots are frowned upon apparently lol.

[deltaenterprizes]

FMJ is cheap practice ammo and I use it for training and qualification.
Punching paper with expensive projectiles is a waste of money!
Unless you are the Federal government and it ain’t your money!

[imashooter2]

I don’t load much FMJ. Not because I hunt, but because I find soft points have better bases and more accuracy and cast has lower cost.

[farmbif]

exactly the way I think about it. I sure aint no benchrest, high-power or competitive shooter, ive never thought it to be wise to load fmj bullets when good hunting bullets like game kings or bulk soft points can be had at same price or less than fmj or match. even for 22 cal like 223 always bought cheap soft nose bulk bullets rather than match bullets. I dont load cast bullets in full power rifle calibers like 556, 243, 6.6, 270, 308, 30-06 these I load and shoot hunting bullets. ive played around with cast in 30-06 with 311299 but dont think anything I ever loaded shot faster than maybe 2100 fps. and when I bought handgun bullets they also were hollow or soft point and steared clear of fmj
also in a lot of places it is illegal to hunt with full metal jacket bullets

[johnsonian09]

I only load cast. Or j words for hunting. If it don’t expand from being lead or by bullet design I don’t shoot it.

Only exception is when I buy mil surp. 5.56.
I get a day to plink around and brass to just reload or turn into 300blk brass if I need more of that. But I don’t zero to mil surp ammo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hick]

I use lots of FMJ in my 223 rem-- but for one special reason: My favorite 55 grain FMJ load at 400 yards just happens to have the same zero as my favorite cast load at 100 yards (open sights). So its just a case of whether I feel like going to the 400 yard range or the 100 yard range to play.

[MUSTANG]

Almost all my .223 is FMJ (Flat Based open tip 60 Grain) that I swage using 22LR brass.

About 40% of my 30 calibers are FMJ (RBT and Flat Based 175 Grain) that I swage using 5/16 copper tubing.

Rest of 30 calibers are a variety of Cast Bullets.

Used to use predominantly surplus FMJ's for Rifle Matches.

[Winger Ed.]

When I was still hunting, I used Game Kings or cast.

In the old days, you could get FMJs pretty cheap.
I'd buy .30 and .50 cal. GI bullet pulls in bulk from Jeff Bartlett.
Factory seconds in 5.56 were and are commonly available for about 1/3 the price of buying premium ones.

[megasupermagnum]

There was a time you could buy 5.56 FMJ for really cheap. Today, FMJ is still cheapest, but the prices are not that much less, so I can see where you would rather just shoot the hunting ammo for everything. The discrepancy is even greater in reloading. Pulled FMJ bullets, while not great, were SUPER cheap, as was pulldown powder. That all went out the window before the last shortage. Today the military is not allowed to sell hardly anything ammo related. Pulldown bullets are pretty much the same price as better quality new softpoints, so it makes no sense to load pull down bullets right now. The best is usually factory seconds on things like the v-max, although 22 caliber bullets just are not that big of a concern for price.

So I agree with you 100% if you are reloading. I don't shoot any FMJ at the moment. If the price is the same, a V-max is almost always more accurate than a FMJ, and even in handguns, a hollow point is usually more accurate than a round nose.

[pworley1]

I shoot a lot of fmj bullets but not in the same rifle that I use for cast.

[M-Tecs]

Back in the 70's and 80's when I did a lot of fur hunting I played with FMJ's in rifles to minimize fur damage. They worked as intended but I lost to many coyotes so it offset the fur damage lost.

Quality FMJ's in rifles don't give up much in accuracy. The bulk GI type varies greatly. Some is very good and some not so much. I load a lot of 55 grain FMJ's for new shooter usage or for myself for 200 yard off-hand practice.

In 9mm and 45 ACP I purchase and load a lot of them.

My service grade M1's don't shoot 175 Hollow point Match bullets any better than they shoot 173 grain FMJ's. My National Match M14/M1A will hold 3/4 MOA with M118LR with the 175 Sierra's. With the M118 173 FMJ's it's more like 1 1/4.

It all boils down to the application. Most people miss due to lack of trigger time. If FMJ's get them shooting more that's a good thing.

[GhostHawk]

My Range does not like FMJ's as many of them have a hardened penitrator which tears up the backstops.

They check jacketed ammo with a magnet.

Once they learned I cast all my own they no longer bother to check mine. Not going to find any.

Its fine for cheap blasting/plinking ammo. But it does not normally expand so it is IMO pretty much worthless for hunting.

Was designed to INJURE not kill humans.

[HWooldridge]

You didn’t specify caliber - 45 ACP FMJ will knock a lot of game on its tuckus. In my twenties, I had a Colt 1911 Series 70 that shot 1” groups at 50 paces if I did my part. It accounted for a large share of small game and I would not have hesitated to shoot a deer if one had walked by during season - aim to break the neck behind the head and it’s either a clean miss or a kill.

[slim1836]

I reload both, was reloading prior to casting my own. Some weapons are set up for one or the other with labeled ammo stockpiled for each. My handguns are mostly cast, with stockpiles for specific ones and lots more in bulk. Since I reloaded before casting, I still have many projectiles other than lead in my inventory.

It was fun shooting jacketed reloads for my Tikka T3 Varmint (MOA@100yds) in my DPMS AR-10 last week. Not as tight groups by any means, maybe minute of hog but all were on paper at 200yds. I have never tamed the "jump" I get shooting my .308's off the bench, my skills are lacking there. Sounds like another subject to post.

Slim

[Texas by God]

I loaded 100 Hornady .308" 147gr fmj for my .300 BO for practice because I got them cheap. Same for some Sierra .243" 90 gr fmj that were discontinued.
Other than that, no. Not even in my .223 AR15.
I also use hunting bullets (including cast)the most because I hunt.
FMJ bullets are illegal to hunt with in Texas as well.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

- aim to break the neck behind the head and it’s either a clean miss or a kill.

For 37 years I hunted next to management area that had lots of swamp grass and lots of deer. Head shots were commonly taken by the people hunting there since the head was generally the only part of the deer they could see. Almost ever year I would have to put a deer out of it's misery since it's jaw, snot or throat was shot off.

Hardly what would be termed as a clean miss or a kill.

[HWooldridge]

For 37 years I hunted next to management area that had lots of swamp grass and lots of deer. Head shots were commonly taken by the people hunting there since the head was generally the only part of the deer they could see. Almost ever year I would have to put a deer out of it's misery since it's jaw, snot or throat was shot off.

Hardly what would be termed as a clean miss or a kill.

Not doubting your experience but the cripples we see here are either shot with arrows or gutshot. Our neighbors used to wound 2-3 every year; one of their boys was a really bad shot.

I never had an opportunity to take a shot at a deer with the 1911, but I was confident where it hit because I tried to shoot a few clips most every day - I’d get off from work and head to the woods…

[1Papalote]

I just bought FMJs for 223. I use them for varmints and turkeys. I have the plenty of varmints that need killing. Not a bunch of meat damage on the turkey but effective.
My granddaughter practices with them prior to the hunting season. She uses a 243, so 223 is way cheaper.
I do head/neck shoot deer when conditions are right but not with FMJs, using Hornady soft points. I've taken 10 wtd/axis with 223 head shots.
I seldom shoot a 22 LR anymore

[Mal Paso]

I just bought 1,000 FMJs in 223 To get started in this caliber cheap. I couldn't get 350L brass but I get pelted regularly with 223 at the range so that brass gave me something to do while I waited. I paid $.08 per bullet compared to hunting rounds for as much as $.40 and the 55g FMJs appear to be the standard for bulk commercial ammo. If I ever take this beyond plinking, I'll get hunting bullets.

[imashooter2]

Almost all my .223 is FMJ (Flat Based open tip 60 Grain) that I swage using 22LR brass.

About 40% of my 30 calibers are FMJ (RBT and Flat Based 175 Grain) that I swage using 5/16 copper tubing.

Rest of 30 calibers are a variety of Cast Bullets.

Used to use predominantly surplus FMJ's for Rifle Matches.

FMJ has an open base with lead exposed and a closed tip. What you are swaging for .223 is not FMJ. What you are swaging for .30 might be.

[rbuck351]

I use fmj in my 223 when shooting fox or other smaller fur bearing critters. Other than that,I don't have much use for fmj.

[SoonerEd]

Only FMJ I have is for 7.62x39, 308 Winchester for AR-10, and 5.56 for AR-15 that I load to match my bulk military ammo so it's all sighted the same for SHTF ammo.

[Bmi48219]

…. Dont like having to change my zeros ( nothing like missing a coyote because your zeroed for FMJ but slapped in a VMAX ,…l.

You could always zero with VMAX (or your preferred hunting projectile) and punch paper with less expensive cast, fmj or plated. I’d think the POI may shift up or down but your group sizes should be reasonably close. JMO.

[GregLaROCHE]

Some full metal jacketed bullets are hollow points. They are not designed for expansion. There is almost no lead in the nose. They are made that way so more of the mass is further back and theoretically they are more stable and therefore more accurate. They are designed for target shooting, not hunting. I used to shoot them in my 6.5x55 Sweds, before I started casting.

[M-Tecs]

Some full metal jacketed bullets are hollow points. They are not designed for expansion. There is almost no lead in the nose. They are made that way so more of the mass is further back and theoretically they are more stable and therefore more accurate. They are designed for target shooting, not hunting. I used to shoot them in my 6.5x55 Sweds, before I started casting.


FMJ's have the opening at the base for the insertion of the core. Hollow point the opening is at the tip for the insertion of the core.

Some actual history of the hollow point match bullet here.

https://www.ssusa.org/content/why-are-hollow-point-rifle-bullets-more-accurate/

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/08/21/hollow-point-rifle-bullets-accurate/

https://www.ccwclasses.net/what-does-full-metal-jacket-mean/

[Land Owner]

FMJ's are/were cheaper to feed through M1A1 and AR-15 as dad, kids and their friends "blasted away" 30-round mags, just for FUN. Like Mal Paso, $0.08 per bullet for the 223 AR is about the least I found and stocked up - a LOT. Sadly, kids grow up and political winds increase the cost of reloading components.

I ALWAYS hunt with jacketed lead tipped or cast bullets as it is unlawful to hunt with FMJ's here. Before I felt old, lost my hunting partner of 30-years, had that wind sucked from my sails, when I shot a lot, hunted a lot, was confident in my equipment and ability, and ALWAYS used a steady rest, I preferred neck shots, and still do within limitations...ymmv.

On Castboolits, and migrating to other boards, the words "jacketed" and "bullet" are, by use only, out of context, and subjugated as "j-word" and "boolit" for distinction as cast. I can "see" the way in which those are useful here. I do not believe it to be a misstatement to say most hunters use jacketed bullets. My "Cast Bullet Handbook" tells me what I should know about cast.

[FISH4BUGS]

Am I the only one who never really buys or reloads FMJ ? Don't really have a purpose for it since all my shooting just kinda falls back to trying to put a round in a critter. Dont like having to change my zeros ( nothing like missing a coyote because your zeroed for FMJ but slapped in a VMAX , ask me how I know lol) all the time and that whole " good nuff pie plate accuracy dont still well with me) so I just load stuff I can actually hunt with. I mean don't get me wrong you can hunt with FMJ.....but head shots are frowned upon apparently lol.

I ONLY load FMJ for suppressed subguns and 223/308.
I was told years ago by a can manufacturer that shooting lead through a can is verboten because of lube and lead buildup.
That is all. Everything else is cast.

[Half Dog]

Nowadays I only hunt office products. FMJ’s are fun but so are others. Price and availability determine the amount of fun.

[contender1]

"It all boils down to the application."

For the purposes the OP has mentioned, he has no needs.

But there are other good reasons to use FMJ's or whatever the shooter needs.

[waksupi]

FMJ is frowned on in this area, sparks start forest fires too easily. During bad fire seasons, it's illegal to even shoot.

[M-Tecs]

FMJ is frowned on in this area, sparks start forest fires too easily. During bad fire seasons, it's illegal to even shoot.

I have seen restrictions on AP and tracers for fire issues. Never on FMJ's. So it's illegal to shoot 9mm and 45 ACP ball while others ammo is OK? I have seen temporarily banning the discharge of firearms for target-shooting or other purposes by anyone not engaged in lawful hunting or out right bans on hunting/camping due to fire conditions but never a FMJ ban only.

[dverna]

I know a guy who hunted with FMJ's. Seemed quite acceptable for the bigger/meaner stuff in Africa. LOL

But in the "real world" I live in, I am with the others who have little use for FMJ bullets unless the price is right for cheap practice. Cost is a big driver for the bulk of my shooting. I would not be worried about POI changes. It is not rocket science to dial in a scope or peep sight.

[JSnover]

Only FMJ I have is for 7.62x39, 308 Winchester for AR-10, and 5.56 for AR-15 that I load to match my bulk military ammo so it's all sighted the same for SHTF ammo.

^^That!

[Winger Ed.]

but never a FMJ ban only.


A few local public ranges ban them, and have for several years.
They've had problems with ricochets bouncing up and out of the berms.

FMJ is illegal to hunt with in some states, California is one.
Here in Texas, the only ammo restriction by the state I'm aware of is armor piercing ammo for handguns.
(That may even be a federal law)

[M-Tecs]

A few local public ranges ban them, and have for several years.
They've had problems with ricochets bouncing up and out of the berms.

FMJ is illegal to hunt with in some states, California is one.
Here in Texas, the only ammo restriction by the state I'm aware of is armor piercing ammo for handguns.
(That may even be a federal law)

Most (if not all) states do not allow FMJ's to be used to hunt big game. Hunting fur animals like coyotes it is allowed all of the state I hunt in.

So on those ranges you can't shoot 9mm and 45 Ball? Lots of bullets don't expand, what stops them from bouncing up and out of the berms?

https://www.blm.gov/programs/public-safety-and-fire/fire-and-aviation/regional-info/california/fire-restrictions

All campfires are required to have a five-foot diameter area be cleared to bare soil and the area must be free of overhead flammable material. The restriction requires that anyone using a campfire have a round-point shovel with a handle at least 35-inches-long nearby.
Portable stoves and lanterns using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel are allowed. Users must have a valid California campfire permit on BLM managed lands within California. Visitors should be extremely careful with their use. Visitors should carry shovels, water and fire extinguishers. California campfire permits are available free online at https://www.readyforwildfire.org/permits/campfire-permit/ or at all BLM, U.S. Forest Service and Cal Fire offices.
No possession or use of fireworks, including California fire marshal-approved “safe and sane” devices.
Target shooters may not use incendiary, exploding, tracer, steel core, steel jacketed or armor piercing ammunition. Steel targets are not recommended – hot bullet fragments, exploding targets and metal from recreational shooting can spark a wildland fire. Hunters actively engaged in the legal pursuit and take of game and non-game species must have a valid California hunting license and abide by California laws and regulations.

Still not see anything about FMJ's for target shooting on BLM land?

[Winger Ed.]

So on those ranges you can't shoot 9mm and 45 Ball?

Hardball is fine.
If a magnet will stick to the bullet, or it's arcane--- that's a 'no-no' for handgun ammo.
Of the indoor ranges I've been to in the DFW area, they all dig around in your ammo can with a magnet.

Not only are they illegal in the state, but I figured they don't want bullets bouncing around inside the range
when they come off their angled steel plate back walls.

I don't think they'd bounce around much more than a Copper jacketed hard ball,
but I don't write the music, I just try to dance to it.

[Bmi48219]

…They've had problems with ricochets bouncing up and out of the berms.

Problems like separating the jackets from the harvested lead? :violin:

[M-Tecs]

Hardball is fine.
If a magnet will stick to the bullet, or it's arcane--- that's a 'no-no' for handgun ammo.
Of the indoor ranges I've been to in the DFW area, they all dig around in your ammo can with a magnet.

Not only are they illegal in the state, but I figured they don't want bullets bouncing around inside the range
when they come off their angled steel plate back walls.

I don't think they'd bounce around much more than a Copper jacketed hard ball,
but I don't write the music, I just try to dance to it.

Ball 9mm and 45 ACP are FMJ's. FMJ's are not steel core or AP but steel core and AP can be FMJ's. They are not the same.

Ranges that use steel bullet traps have velocity limits for all ammo and don't allow AP and or steel jackets since they damage the steel unlike normal FMJ's.

Texas does not allow AP for handguns as do 10 other states but AP and FMJ's are not the same.

https://ltcaustin.com/legal-ammunition-in-texas/
Only One Type of Ammunition Is Strictly Forbidden
On a state level, the only specific type of ammunition that’s illegal is armor-piercing ammunition for handguns. This is defined as a type of handgun ammunition designed to penetrate any metal or body armor. Armor-piercing ammo cannot be knowingly possessed, manufactured, sold, transported, or repaired within the state of Texas.

The M855 Geen Tip is not classified as AP. https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/ammunition/military-ammunition-and-why-green-tip-m855-is-not-armor-piercing/

Definitions of what AP actually is https://rocketffl.com/ap-ammo-are-armor-piercing-bullets-legal/#

What states are FMJ illegal to possess????

Excluding rimfire and shotgun ammo my guess is that close to 75% of all ammo fired in the US are FMJ's

[Bmi48219]

…Of the indoor ranges I've been to in the DFW area, they all dig around in your ammo can with a magnet.

Not only are they illegal in the state, but I figured they don't want bullets bouncing around inside the range when they come off their angled steel plate back walls.


Indoor ranges I worked at would ask if you had steel core when you checked in. Most people didn’t know. If the bullet TIP stuck to the magnet it was not allowed. You could also see the sparks as it hit the baffle plates.
Every night we cleaned the range floor. I can’t recall ever seeing FMJs during clean up. In fact it was extremely rare to see any part of a projectile on the floor.

[Kraschenbirn]

About 90% of my reloads are cast, either PC'd or pan-lubed; the remainder is .30 cal. FMJ simply because I've got so much of it. Back when the mil-surp pull-downs started to dry-up, I snagged a goodly batch of M80 ball from Jeff Bartlett to feed my Garand and, four or five years back, when those M118LRs popped up, I snagged a couple thousand from RMR. Finally, last winter, I picked up a .50 cal. ammo can from a consignment auction that was half-full of pull-downs M80s with a zip-lock bag of M2 APs thrown in for $50 and change. Right now, I'm pretty certain that I've got more .30 FMJ bullets on-hand than large rifle primers.

On the other hand, the 60 rounds of .308 that I sent downrange this morning were shiny Flame Red Arsenal 309-188PCs.

Bill

[elmacgyver0]

I ONLY load FMJ for suppressed subguns and 223/308.
I was told years ago by a can manufacturer that shooting lead through a can is verboten because of lube and lead buildup.
That is all. Everything else is cast.

That would be because most suppressors were not user serviceable and had to be returned to the manufacturer for cleaning.
I would not buy something I could not service myself.
Fortunately there are better options now, a bit pricey but in my opinion worth it.
I swore I would never own a suppressor if I had to jump thru all the government BS and would wait until they were deregulated, well that dog never hunted.
I finally broke down and ordered one from Silencer Central.
I ordered the newest in the line up, the Banish 46, it will or so they say work on anything .45 cal. on down.
I ordered all the extra goodies to make it work on practically every thing I have.
Things like a Nielson device and pistons.
This thing will probably be a bit bulky on pistols but I'm not going through the BS and wait twice or more times.
I could have done the Form 1 and built my own but it seems they are beginning to frown on that.
I'm sure a commercial unit will be better than what I could come up with anyway, as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
I do intend to shoot cast thru it, although they will be powder coated.
If I end up ruining $2000.00 worth of suppressor I will let you know so to save you the anguish.
At this point my suppressor is still in ATF jail.
In other words, I don't have a clue and I'm talking thru my rear at this point.
If I have only one hope it is to live long enough to have at least one range session with it.
At my age you never know, I have recently had a couple friends pass that were several year my junior.
I have been very fortunate so far.

[elmacgyver0]

You know?
I got so wrapped up talking about suppressors.
I forgot my usual sarcastic comment!
Just send your FMJ to me and I will be happy to dispose of them for you!
Sorry about that, almost disappointed you.
I will try to be more careful in the future.

[sharps4590]

I've never bought or loaded a FMJ bullet but, I have fired quite a few. They're all I shoot in semi-auto handguns, for everything and, I don't load for them. As far as I know FMJ's are not legal to hunt with in Missouri.

Of my hunting rifles only 5 get jacketed bullets, two double rifles, one drilling and a 6.5 Swede and my 1903 Mannlicher/Schoenauer. All the rest get cast as do all my revolvers.

[elmacgyver0]

Most of my hunting is done on paper targets and tin cans. Never had a problem with FMJ on these.
In my teens I had great aspirations about being a big game hunter, pith helmet and all.
Well that never happened.
I guess I have gotten a lot less bloodthirsty in my old age, Hell I even rescued a spider out of my backyard water fountain.

[GregLaROCHE]

FMJ's have the opening at the base for the insertion of the core. Hollow point the opening is at the tip for the insertion of the core.

Some actual history of the hollow point match bullet here.









https://www.ssusa.org/content/why-are-hollow-point-rifle-bullets-more-accurate/

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/08/21/hollow-point-rifle-bullets-accurate/

https://www.ccwclasses.net/what-does-full-metal-jacket-mean/

Thanks for those links. They were interesting. I’m always open to learn more details about ballistics. However, I’m not totally on board with the statement, that FMJs increase the life of a firearm. On the other hand, I once had a M1 Carbine that flat out refused to load soft tipped bullets. FMJs no problem.

[gwpercle]

I don't have much use for FMJ either . I mostly shoot cast boolits . I have one model 95 Mauser 7X57 with a "dark" bore that will group only 175 gr. Hornady RN rather well but not cast ... so it gets fed those .
If I want cheap boolits ... I cast them .
Gary

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for those links. They were interesting. I’m always open to learn more details about ballistics. However, I’m not totally on board with the statement, that FMJs increase the life of a firearm. On the other hand, I once had a M1 Carbine that flat out refused to load soft tipped bullets. FMJs no problem.

That part is internet BS.

[Winger Ed.]

that FMJs increase the life of a firearm.


I'd never heard that, but there's no way.
The bearing surface or sides that contact the bore are pretty much the same.
If the very front end is copper or Lead, it won't matter as far as barrel wear.

If you push a Lead tipped SP fast enough, some of the exposed Lead tip might sluff back onto the jacket,
but it won't negatively effect barrel wear.

[bangerjim]

I only buy and load 223 FMJ's. Easy and fast. Those silly little pills cast for 223's are just too hard to handle, pc, and load. I have 3ea) 223 molds and will never cast another! Probably will give them to a friend of mine.

I stocked up on FMJ 233's several years ago for about 4¢ each and have many thousand just waiting to be shoved down those skinny little necks! If I ever need them.

banger

[Daekar]

I have never seen much point in bullets which are no good for anything except hitting a target plate or paper. Despite the fact that targets are the vast majority of my shooting, why on earth would I choose to zero and practice with a load which I couldn't use in real situations? I have some FMJs for old military rifles, but most of those are because they were salvaged from old surplus duds.

I load almost exclusively cast now, and the only thing I don't have some plan to cast for is 223... which for me is a low volume cartridge since I don't need the range very often at all.

[waksupi]

I have seen restrictions on AP and tracers for fire issues. Never on FMJ's. So it's illegal to shoot 9mm and 45 ACP ball while others ammo is OK? I have seen temporarily banning the discharge of firearms for target-shooting or other purposes by anyone not engaged in lawful hunting or out right bans on hunting/camping due to fire conditions but never a FMJ ban only.

The contention arises from ricochets on ranges, that have had housing built in close.

[Geezer in NH]

You could always zero with VMAX (or your preferred hunting projectile) and punch paper with less expensive cast, fmj or plated. I’d think the POI may shift up or down but your group sizes should be reasonably close. JMO.
Agree with this.

All the surplus I shot in me 70 year life were FMJ super practice ammo way cheaper than premium bulleted.

[M-Tecs]

The contention arises from ricochets on ranges, that have had housing built in close.

All bullets have the potential to ricochet. Some are worse than others. Ricochets can be minimized by using frangible or highly explosive varmint bullets. If a range is having ricochets it has really poorly designed berms or the shooter are hitting the well ground before the target. Anyone that has spent much time on a range has seen the bullet grooves in the dirt.

When I was I kid I reloaded for a 7th Cavalry re-enactment group. All the other kids had 22’s. I mostly used a Trapdoor Springfield and a 1873 Colt. One of my classmates wanted to shoot the TD Carbine. We bet a dollar on who got closest to the X ring. It was at 100 yards offhand. I shot a 9. He hit well in front of the target bullet yet the bullet ricocheted in to the X-ring. It was almost a perfect keyhole but it was still in the X-ring so I lost. That lead to a summer of skipping bullets into the target with 22LR, 222 Rem, 243’s, 30/06’s, 38/357’s, 45 Colt and 45/70’s. Cast bullets in the 38/357, 45 Colt and 45/70 ricocheted the worst. That includes M2 Ball. Shooting carp with the 30/06 tracers would almost always ricochet. The yardage was about 75 to 250 yards with about a 100 foot elevation above the water.

I have been an avid prairie dog shooter for 40 plus years and now only shoot very explosive bullets like V-Max's to minimize the potential of a ricochet. Even with those you still hear a zinger once in a while. With the explosive bullet they fragment and lose energy quickly. I gave up on using 22LR for PD's due to the ricochet issue. The 17 HMR with V-max's is much better with 17 grain V-Max's. Most of my better spots are posted and locked due to people using there deer/elk rifles and loads and killing or injury livestock a 1/4 to 3/4 miles away. In one case it was the landowners son-in-law that killed the neighbors registered barrel race horse. The son-in-law could not afford the elk trip he was going on let alone the very expensive barrel horse.

One of the ranges I am a member of uses acoustic targets and the use of V-Max and explosive varmint due to damage to the rubber acoustic targets. Individual ranges can implement whatever rules they see fit. That is much different than being “illegal” to shoot on a state or federal level.


FMJ is frowned on in this area, sparks start forest fires too easily. During bad fire seasons, it's illegal to even shoot.

I can find and I am familiar with state/BLM rules limiting “Target shooters may not use incendiary, exploding, tracer, steel core, steel jacketed or armor piercing ammunition.” But nothing on FMJ’s. I do see some not being aware that all FMJ’s are not AP or Steel Core. M855 Green type has a steel penetrator so that would fall under the limits. M193 55 grain is just standard FMJ like most range 9mm and 45 ACP as are most other FMJ’s. The gunshop that I work at part time literally sells millions of rounds of FMJ’s per year and FMJ constitute the majority of ammo shot at ranges. I can find examples of people confusing FMJ’s with AP, however, the only time I can find state or federal limits on shooting FMJ are when ALL outdoor target shooting on public land is stopped due to fire conditions. During really dry condition I have seen the hunting seasons closed. That has nothing to do with FMJ's.

In your statement please clarify is its just FMJ's that becomes illegal or all shooting outdoors? If I am selling a product that is illegal under some conditions I really should know that?

[jaysouth]

I have 4 teenager grand kids with ARs. We reload lots and lots of FMJ 55gr. BT for range blammo.

I also have a
pile of 150 gr btfmj (hornady 3037) bought "right" almost 20 years ago. Over 15-18 grs of 2400, these make good "mid range" target loads good out to 200 yards in 308 or 30-06.

[megasupermagnum]

@M-tecs, no point in reasoning. I've found a few of shooting ranges are run by people that are either incredibly stupid or scared or both. Some ranges I swear they don't want you to shoot at all. If you aren't shooting 5-10 rounds at a paper target, and it had better be slow, then you best move on. I joined a range temporarily once, run by a bunch of thieves, that you couldn't use a semi-auto. I was told it had something to do about double fires and shooting over the berm. It had to be one round loaded at a time. It didn't much matter though since they took your money, then never let you shoot anyway. It baffles me how someone who runs a shooting range can be so clueless on shooting sometimes.

FMJ being more prone to ricochet is just one of those things that kind of sounds good for a second, as long as you don't think about it much. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts a standard soft point would ricochet just as often and just as far if scientifically tested. It shouldn't matter though, as a shooting range that doesn't take that into account shouldn't be operating anyway. If you don't have a lot of room downrange, you had better have massive berms, and then it doesn't matter. Better yet would be if people were smart enough to know they probably shouldn't build housing developments 500 yards downrange of a shooting range that has been there forever.

[jsizemore]

Back in the day, before there was a Wolfdog91, 22 fmj surplus from Wideners was some cheap shootin'. 1.5-2¢/bullet in the Hornet, 223, or 22-250 was cheap shooting from 50-400 yards when you bought 1000 or 5000. I'd lay waste to a herd of groundhogs or mob of crows.

[Land Owner]

I sat in an adjacent tree stand and heard my son's lead tipped 30-30 bullet ricochet after it passed through a feral hog. The bullet killed and exited the hog, impacted the earth, and WITH GREAT AUTHORITY ricocheted into the air at the mirrored angle it had entered the hog. It whistled as it exited!

[M-Tecs]

Back in the day, before there was a Wolfdog91, 22 fmj surplus from Wideners was some cheap shootin'. 1.5-2¢/bullet in the Hornet, 223, or 22-250 was cheap shooting from 50-400 yards when you bought 1000 or 5000. I'd lay waste to a herd of groundhogs or mob of crows.

Even at today inflated prices 22 Cal. 55 grain FMJ's can be had for 10¢ each. FMJ's normally are not as accurate as match bullets but every US made one I've shot is 1 MOA capable for 5 shot groups capable out of a good rifle. I rarely can do that with cast and it's not consistent.

I am surprised by some of the comments and apparently the lack of knowledge on this subject. FMJ's have their place. Most importantly they are a low cost option that gets new shooters involved and allows for cheap practice for all shooters.

In early May of 2020 the store I work part-time at had a sale on 9mm ball for $7.99 a box of 50. They sold 300,000 rounds in a week and a half. If you bought a 1,000 round case the prices was $6.99 per 50. Per volume 80+% of their sales have been 9mm, 45, 223 and 308 FMJ ball ammo. Same when you go to the indoor ranges. Almost all the factory ammo shot at indoor ranges in those calibers are FMJ's.

On a sidenote the Hmong in the area really like 17 HMR's with FMJ's for rabbit and squirrel hunting. Lots of small game and varmints can legally be hunted with FMJ's.

On another sidenote TMJ (total Metal Jacket) is a plated version of the FMJ with no opening for a core insertion. This is lifted from another site "Speer TMJ-Sil----Total Metal Jacket----revolver bullets designed specifically for IHMSA silhouette, Electroplated jacket encloses lead core. Through a difficult development process, Speer refined precise thickness for top accuracy. Speer Gold Dot hollow points start as TMJ bullets."

IMI Di-cut is FMJ's ran thru a hollow point forming die. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090655809/

[Kraschenbirn]

Back in the day, before there was a Wolfdog91, 22 fmj surplus from Wideners was some cheap shootin'. 1.5-2¢/bullet in the Hornet, 223, or 22-250 was cheap shooting from 50-400 yards when you bought 1000 or 5000. I'd lay waste to a herd of groundhogs or mob of crows.

I can recall buying those post-Viet Nam 55-grain milsurp fmjs, literally, by the pound and taking them home in a paper sack. This was the late 1970s-early 1980s; I had a Remington 722 in .222 and a buddy had a (IIRC) Winchester 670 chambered for .225 Win. Back then, we bought pull-down powder the same way - by the pound in paper bags - from the same long-gone gunshop.

Bill

[Soundguy]

I no longer buy jacketed ammo. I still have a few thousand mixed jacketed types on the shelf that i will originally load up.. but for the most part.. I am loading and making cast lead.. and that's what i shoot and adjust my scopes for.

I have a very few guns that I only load jacketed for.. namely a m1 garand that likes milsurp 150's loaded to m2 ball specs and I have a good supply of those setting on my slowly dwindling jacketed shelf.

[megasupermagnum]

Right, they are 10 cents a bullet now, and most I'm seeing is more like 14 cents. At the same time, right now on midway usa you can buy a "frangible" bullet for 9 cents each, or a soft point for 11 cents each. Wolfdog's question was why would he shoot FMJ right now when a soft or polymer point bullet is the best for his purposes. I have to agree, it makes no sense right now to buy FMJ for 10 cents each, when you can buy soft points for 11 cents each. In the future I suspect FMJ will cost less again, but it may be some time now that there is hardly any brass or bullets being sold from the military.

[Bmi48219]

Other than indoor ranges that ban hot rifle cartridges that could damage the bullet traps, I’ve never heard of ranges banning lead core FMJs. I have been to indoor ranges that (foolishly, IMO) don’t allow lead bullets out of concern for airborne particulates.

[Divil]

I like fmj but for informal pistol shooting and in .32acp and .380 actual carry. For tactical rifle .223 or .308 I think fmj is quite useful. For hunting fmj isn’t particularly useful. I recently acquired a 7mm-08 A Bolt for hopefully harvesting a big doe and fmj is non existent in that caliber.

[jsizemore]

About the time Wofdog91 came to be the only plastic tipped bullets were Nosler Ballistic Tips and folks ran hot and cold on them. Great BC but came to pieces when they were still flying fast. But the learning curve improved with the bullet manufacturers and we got the high BC AND controlled expansion. What's not to like and shoot.

I like me some cast bullets but it's hard to ignore those high BC, plastic tipped bullets at long distance on game animals.

[Winger Ed.]

About the time Wofdog91 came to be the only plastic tipped bullets were Nosler Ballistic Tips and folks ran hot and cold on them.

When they first came out, Nosler advertised them as a match hollow point with the plastic tip to keep the end of the bullet
from getting dinged up in the magazine.
They were thin, had rapid expansion, and only recommended them for smaller, thin skinned game hunting.

Since they looked cool, were very accurate, and cost the same per box of 100 as most other jacketed bullets-
I shot a bunch of them in my .270 Rem700.

When they went from a box of 100 to a box of 50 for the same price as 100 Sierra or Hornady, I quit buying them.
Then, I got away from the .270 in favor of .30-06, and got into casting .30cal.
But they were fun while it lasted.

[AnthonyB]

I have never seen much point in bullets which are no good for anything except hitting a target plate or paper. Despite the fact that targets are the vast majority of my shooting, why on earth would I choose to zero and practice with a load which I couldn't use in real situations?

Very interesting thoughts above because the poster is very smart and agrees with me! I have always been perplexed by those who load RN bullets in handguns (accuracy and taking small game being understood exceptions) when a flatter nose can be made to function and shoot as well with much better terminal performance. As for FMJ in 5.56 or 7.62, I wouldn’t hunt big game with them but have seen what M193 and M80 does to humans. Green tip M855 (SS109) isn’t as destructive as M193, but I wouldn’t feel poorly armed with either in the zombie apocalypse.
Tony

[Soundguy]

I like me some cast bullets but it's hard to ignore those high BC, plastic tipped bullets at long distance on game animals.

I never could get into hunting at super long ranges where you need a telescope to shoot the unsuspecting animal the next mountain over..then hike 4 hours to the kill.

Just doesn't seem sporting to me if you are far enough away that they can't smell you..and you are too far away to be seen..at all..by the naked eye.

To me..stalking an animal is when you are close enough that it could see, hear and smell you. If you can take him then..then you earned it. Shooting a critter near a mile away?

That's why I like safari guns and doubles regulated in YARDAGE.... Them big animals are close enough to come visit you....

[Wolfdog91]

I never could get into hunting at super long ranges where you need a telescope to shoot the unsuspecting animal the next mountain over..then hike 4 hours to the kill.

Just doesn't seem sporting to me if you are far enough away that they can't smell you..and you are too far away to be seen..at all..by the naked eye.

To me..stalking an animal is when you are close enough that it could see, hear and smell you. If you can take him then..then you earned it. Shooting a critter near a mile away?

That's why I like safari guns and doubles regulated in YARDAGE.... Them big animals are close enough to come visit you....

It's just another way to do it and another skill set. Honestly I feel like it makes to do alot more then traditional hunting as far as knowing you gun inside and out you bullets, how they function,the animal anatomy, wind reading ect. Lotta stuff I see "traditional" hunters do just plain wouldn't fly with long range. Spotted and stalked a dozen or so deer, haven't taken one yet, just nothing in it for me honestly. Play the wind move quiet,pretty simple.
I've gotten within 25 of a few and with a gun it's just like " egh" .Long range different, ball game.
That's just me though

[M-Tecs]

It's just another way to do it and another skill set. Honestly I feel like it makes to do alot more then traditional hunting as far as knowing you gun inside and out you bullets, how they function,the animal anatomy, wind reading ect. Lotta stuff I see "traditional" hunters do just plain wouldn't fly with long range. Spotted and stalked a dozen or so deer, haven't taken one yet, just nothing in it for me honestly. Play the wind move quiet,pretty simple.
I've gotten within 25 of a few and with a gun it's just like " egh" .Long range different, ball game.
That's just me though

That kind of goes against your first post.


Am I the only one who never really buys or reloads FMJ ? Don't really have a purpose for it since all my shooting just kinda falls back to trying to put a round in a critter. Dont like having to change my zeros ( nothing like missing a coyote because your zeroed for FMJ but slapped in a VMAX , ask me how I know lol) all the time and that whole " good nuff pie plate accuracy dont still well with me) so I just load stuff I can actually hunt with. I mean don't get me wrong you can hunt with FMJ.....but head shots are frowned upon apparently lol.

Long range hunting or long range competition requires significant wind reading abilities coupled with the ability get on the knobs for both elevation and wind. That only can be learned by significant trigger time.

FMJ's like M72/M118 USGI 173gr cal. bullets can still be found for a lot less than true match bullets and out of a 308 they will stay supersonic at a 1,000 yards. They shoot well enough to take you to mid-level master class in NRA HighPower. The M193 55 grain FMJ's really get pushed around by the wind past 300 yards but they can be a great wind reading learning tools. The M855 62 green trip does better with wind but they are flyer prone due to QC issues with the steel cores.

Once you get used to adjusting the sights for conditions and yardage having multiple zero's for different loads becomes second nature. I have more target rifles than I have high end scopes so most scopes get moved around a lot with nothing more than dialing in the settings for that rifle and that load. I can get them to repeat POI within 1/2 MOA on the Picatinny rails so the ring spacing the same for rifle to rifle.

[Wolfdog91]

That kind of goes against your first post.



Long range hunting or long range competition requires significant wind reading abilities coupled with the ability get on the knobs for both elevation and wind. That only can be learned by significant trigger time.

FMJ's like M72/M118 USGI 173gr cal. bullets can still be found for a lot less than true match bullets and out of a 308 they will stay supersonic at a 1,000 yards. They shoot well enough to take you to mid-level master class in NRA HighPower. The M193 55 grain FMJ's really get pushed around by the wind past 300 yards but they can be a great wind reading learning tools. The M855 62 green trip does better with wind but they are flyer prone due to QC issues with the steel cores.

Once you get used to adjusting the sights for conditions and yardage having multiple zero's for different loads becomes second nature. I have more target rifles than I have high end scopes so most scopes get moved around a lot with nothing more than dialing in the settings for that rifle and that load. I can get them to repeat POI within 1/2 MOA on the Picatinny rails so the ring spacing the same for rifle to rifle.

I'd have to disagree. Personally I've never had much luck loading the cheaper stuff. I could get the stuff I had good enough for plinking but not to where I'd feel comfortable to have it for hunting accuracy. Also the cheap FMJ's I'd get always seems so finicky in my rifles. Honestly by the time I got them shooting good usually I was just feeling like I could have just gotten a box of the hunting stuff my gun likes and just be done with it lol. But yeah I just buy and shoot whatever I hunt with. Helps me learn that bullet that load and how my gun reacts to them. Will also say it does mess with my anxiety ha ing mutipe loads for one rifle lol. I'm forgetful and I'll stand there looking at my gun like " did zero it for this load or that load ? " And generally it'll eat at me till I go out with. Both and see which is zeroed. Lost a few friendly match's because of that so I'm Abit antsy now lol ! But that's just me

[Wolfdog91]

That being said , idk I might try playing with FMJ again just because, I mean why not lol

[Winger Ed.]

I'll stand there looking at my gun like " did zero it for this load or that load ? "

I keep a small notebook in my range box just for that sort of thing.

[M-Tecs]

I'd have to disagree. Personally I've never had much luck loading the cheaper stuff. I could get the stuff I had good enough for plinking but not to where I'd feel comfortable to have it for hunting accuracy. Also the cheap FMJ's I'd get always seems so finicky in my rifles. Honestly by the time I got them shooting good usually I was just feeling like I could have just gotten a box of the hunting stuff my gun likes and just be done with it lol. But yeah I just buy and shoot whatever I hunt with. Helps me learn that bullet that load and how my gun reacts to them. Will also say it does mess with my anxiety ha ing mutipe loads for one rifle lol. I'm forgetful and I'll stand there looking at my gun like " did zero it for this load or that load ? " And generally it'll eat at me till I go out with. Both and see which is zeroed. Lost a few friendly match's because of that so I'm Abit antsy now lol ! But that's just me

I tape the zero info on the stock and I keep a data log. Some rifles have data and zeros for 5 or 6 loads. That scope may get moved to several rifles. Easy to keep track of. Using a good scope is no different than using a micrometer. You adjust it to the settings you need. On the scope I tape the rifle description that the rifle that the dials are set zero - zero for elevation and windage. It's nothing more than simple record keeping same as keeping a score book. I do the same for the match rifle iron sights but they never fail like scope will.

I had a total of 50 National Match M-14's that would mostly hold sub 1 1/2 MOA for 10 shot groups with stand M118 and mostly would do a 1 MOA plus or minus a 1/4" with M118LR. Out of scoped bolt guns both would do better. The only Green tip I have shot has been GI issue. It tended to shoot really well except for the one or two flyers that happened with most 10 shot groups. Out of AR match rifles the M193 55 grain FMJ's are solid 1 MOA for me. With match bullet the same rifles would be 1/2 MOA or better. The Hornady 55 grain FMJ's shoot OK for me and are not in the least bit finicky.

That being said I have never shot any of the steel case .223. I have heard reports from trusted shooters that it can be pretty grim for accuracy.

Unless the gun/ammo combo is really bad it's still trigger time, wind reading ability and the ability to adjust the sights that will make or break you as a shooter. There is a time and a place for hold off corrections but those times and places are rare for serious long range shooters.

With NRA match rifle shooters it's common that they use the same rifle for both iron sight and optics matches. Switching back on forth daily is not a problem. That's what you have the two sighters for.

When David Tubb was first promoting the Tubb 2000 rifle I watched him do a complete take down of his rifle including removing the barrel between the 300 yard and 600 yard event at the Nationals at Camp Perry. If I remember correctly his first sighter at 600 yards was a 9. Second was a 10 or an X. Taking the rifle apart did not hinder him from winning the National title that year.

[Land Owner]

Blamo Ammo in FMJ...is just plain FUN!

Blow some holes in the air. Make some NOISE!



You want to see a kid really smile? Put a 30-round clip in a semi-auto and tell him to empty it. He will figure it out...and come back for more!

[Soundguy]

It's just another way to do it and another skill set. Honestly I feel like it makes to do alot more then traditional hunting as far as knowing you gun inside and out you bullets, how they function,the animal anatomy, wind reading ect. Lotta stuff I see "traditional" hunters do just plain wouldn't fly with long range. Spotted and stalked a dozen or so deer, haven't taken one yet, just nothing in it for me honestly. Play the wind move quiet,pretty simple.
I've gotten within 25 of a few and with a gun it's just like " egh" .Long range different, ball game.
That's just me though

For long range shooting.. I never felt great about using an animal solely as a target.. seems unfair.. since they basically have to be all in.. and the human has no skin in the game. Want that long range target that is semi random.. go hang a plate a mile away from a tree limb.. this gets you wind play.. sun.. etc.. and you are on even terms with the target... just me.. imho.

[waksupi]

For long range shooting.. I never felt great about using an animal solely as a target.. seems unfair.. since they basically have to be all in.. and the human has no skin in the game. Want that long range target that is semi random.. go hang a plate a mile away from a tree limb.. this gets you wind play.. sun.. etc.. and you are on even terms with the target... just me.. imho.

It may be a game to us, but it is deadly serious for the animal on the receiving end.

[Valley-Shooter]

I shoot action pistol events. I had planned to switch all my pistols to cast boolits, but I have to many fmj and cmj 40's.
I stockpiled 40's twenty years ago and I'm still shooting them.
I was going to switch 45 cast , but a guy at a match this year was selling all his plated bullets for cheap.

Now 9mm, I been casting and shooting about 800 a month during the spring and summer.

[jsizemore]

Most of the land I hunt over is farm land. Critters that eat a farmers crops are a nuisance and cut into profits. Being "fair" in the hunt is all well and good but cuts into your time and efficiency. Edible game is shared with the local food bank. Farmer and hungry are happy. I get to hunt over a bunch of land and shoot some really accurate guns.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It's what i shoot in my AR15 Sporter rifles, and used to shoot mostly in my 9mm's until i got powder coated cast to work nicely. Back when it was cheap i shot a good deal of .308 ball ammo too. And come think of it, that is what my AK's get fed. Military firearms go with fmj hand in hand.