What do you like about wad cutters?

[justindad]

What do you like about wad cutters?
*
I’m thinking about them for my 3” .357 Mag, and I don’t want .38 Special brass.

[Winger Ed.]

They're quite accurate at short range, and I can see the shot holes in the target from the firing line without my glasses.

[gc45]

Have poured and fired lots of wadcutters in 38 caliber thinking them both accurate and lethal. I carry wadcutters in my J Frame Smith but they are factory loads...In a mag case I would keep velocity in the standard 38 special range unless you are casting very hard bullets although I have no experience with them over Plus P 38 special velo so really can't advise you there...

[stubshaft]

I've shot them in 38/357, 44 and 45 cals. they are very accurate out to 50 yards then they fall off like a pile of bricks.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not a huge fan of wadcutters. I like them in pellet guns for hunting small game, although you are trading to get much more effective body shots, for hardly any penetration (such as head shots if shooting something like rabbits, or even bigger like raccoon or fox. I also in shotguns like the Lyman 525, which is a giant pellet. I'd rather it not be so blunt, but the accuracy is very good. Lastly is in snub nose 38 special revolvers. I'd try them in other weaker short barrel revolvers like a 32 S&W long as well.

I can't find, or even imagine what possible advantage a full wadcutter would have in a 357 magnum. By that I mean a full cylinder shaped bullet, seated flush, or nearly so with the case mouth. While they can be fairly accurate, they are not more accurate than any other shape. Most of the hunters I've seen that use "wadcutters" in 357 magnum are really using extremely wide nosed RNFP or SWC bullets, and usually seated with a lot of bullet sticking out of the case.

[Thumbcocker]

What megasuper said. They were designed to cut nice holes in paper to get competitive target shooters a few more points. They do that very well. Maybe some field use at close range but in my experience a good rnfp or swc does better.

[FISH4BUGS]

Nothing that a swc can't do

[dannyd]

I like this

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[waco]

I don't have to look and see which end I'm putting into the case.:bigsmyl2::-P

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Lee has .357 mag load data with Bullseye. I shot a Lee full wadcutter into gel. It tumbled right from the start doing some impressive damage as it went sideways.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

What do I like about wadcutters? As said by others, the nice round holes. I shot thousands and thousands of them in .38 Special, all 148 gr. double ended or hollow base over 2.5 gr. of Bullseye. Very accurate, mild recoil, great practice.

I'm curious...why don't you want them in .38 brass? I'm assuming that, like some, you fear a ring in the .357's cylinder chambers at the end of the .38's length. Not to worry if you clean regularly and well.

Nice shooting, dannyd!

DG

[45DUDE]

I have at least six 38 wc molds 141-148-160. Lyman--Ideal and H&G. My model 19-3 likes a bnwc the best. They are accurate up to about 1000fps.

[mdi]

If wadcutters weren't the most accurate bullet, then why were they so popular with the "Bullseye Shooter" Competition? For cutting good holes? SWC also cut clean holes so why weren't SCW used for target shooting competitions? I have loaded quite a few wadcutters, most that I have cast. Used them in 38 and 357 brass. Short range hunting has proved them to perform very well.

FWIW; I had a "house gun" load of a 150 gr DEWC loaded over a max charge of W231. The were running a little over 900 fps and very accurate out to 10 yards, furthest I checked. I would think they would perform well on a flesh target at "across the room" distances.I started using this load way before all the hyper, ultra expanding bullet technology was common, and occasionally I'll load some up, just 'cause. Wadcutters don't have to be loaded flush and I've experimented with seating depth and crimps and found no good reason for flush seating (most that shot S&W M52s that needed flush seating for feeding purposes).

I like my wadcutters because most lower to medium loads are accurate, fun to shoot and easy to cast...

[justindad]

Thanks everybody for your thoughts!
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The reason I don’t want any .38 Spec brass is simply because I already have too much stuff in my house.
*
The first reason I want to get wadcutters is because I’m curious. The second reason is because I’d like to make a light load for my .357. A heavy wadcutter with Unique seems good. I use True Blue powder a lot, but in .357 that powder has the same recoil as Enforcer - might actually be sharper. My pistol has near zero muzzle flip and the snappiness of True Blue isn’t fun, but maybe things would work out better with a wadcutter.
*
A light load that doesn’t affect POI is ultimately what I’m after. Alternating heavy loads and light loads is part of my training to not flinch and not over-think life. I downloaded True Blue to the point POI didn’t match Enforcer and still the recoil of the two powders was the same (158 grain WFN boolit). If True Blue doesn’t work better with a wadcutter, then I probably shouldn’t go down this path. I don’t want Unique for the same reason I don’t want .38 Spec brass.
*
I got a .45 Colt, so chasing a light load isn’t important. I guess it really does come down to curiosity. First world problems (hopefully my grandkids will know that phrase).

[Jack Stanley]

They are great for chipmunk safari's out in the woods .

Jack

[Bigslug]

The downside - if you're going to carry them - is the reload. Some bullet taper to help find the holes is a benefit.

Having the entire bullet contained in the case will help protect it from damage - depending on how they're stored, transported, carried, etc...

If a light load is what you're chasing, the weight of the bullet will be in the case, taking up volume - all to the good for that project. It cuts both ways though - moving the weight forward out of the case gives you room for more go-juice.

In the interest of keeping it simple, I'd be more interested in a single, more versatile WFN profile that will play well beyond the generally-accepted poop-out distance of full WC's, feed in a long gun, etc...

[justindad]

A WFN with only 0.25” in front of the cannelure would also work in the .357 SIG.

[justindad]

The MP 38 HBWC is 171 grains solid. Pretty tempting.
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[Shiloh]

Clean, sharp, paper punch holes. Easy to see.

Shiloh

[alfadan]

When I was in competition, the nice clean holes were nice. I think they were sharper than swc but idunno. Now I just use them for everything in .38; a nice utility bullet.

[M-Tecs]

I often hear and read that wadcutters were designed for paper punching. That is not correct. Currently in the US that is their primary function. Specifically for NRA Bullseye Handgun competition. They work great out to 50 yards and the leave a paper punched type hole. As long as the hole touches the next higher scoring ring it counts. Full WC's do this better than SWC's or any other bullet design.

Historical I am not sure when the design was first introduced but the Brits used a hollow base hollow point in the .455 Webley manstopper load than later used a flat nose WC.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

It was about this time that the British Government became fixated with "stopping power" (remember the .303 Mk III - "Dum Dum" was approved for service in 1897 and it wasn’t until the 1899 Hague Convention that such ammunition was considered, well, unsporting.) This trend extended to the .455 revolver ammunition and, as a result, the Mark III .455 cartridge appeared in 1898. This has the same .760 ins case but the bullet had a deep nose cavity which reduced its weight to around 220 grains – referred to as the "Manstopper" bullet. Cordite was again the propellant of choice. Some Mark III cases were later loaded with Mark II (conical lead) bullets.


Obviously production of the Mark III was overtaken by international events and sentiments. It was removed from service in 1900 and the Mark II cartridge was re-instated as a stop-gap measure. Some lengthy experimentation then took place to come up with a more effective bullet and it wasn’t until 12 years later (1912) that the .455 Mark IV cartridge emerged. This used the same case as the previous marks, with a cordite charge and the bullet was 220 grains but with a completely flat nose – basically a full wadcutter in today’s terms. At this point it should be noted that the collector may encounter .455 cartridges which have a bullet nose that is slightly rounded rather than completely flat. These are not Mark IV rounds but commercial target rounds sometimes loaded on surplus military cases.

The same fear that had resulted in the Mark III "Manstopper" being removed from service resurfaced with the "wadcutter" Mark IV. As a result, the Mark II, reintroduced when the Mark III was withdrawn, remained the service cartridge until the introduction of the Mark VI (see below).

Despite concerns about the Mark IV, a Mark V .455 cartridge was introduced in 1914. This had the exact same bullet profile as the Mark IV but used a harder lead alloy. It was otherwise identical in construction to the Mark IV and the general consensus amongst military experts is that it was used solely for target practice. It was a very short-lived cartridge and remains quite rare. While headstamps indicating a Mark V case are not uncommon, these are normally found loaded with Mark II bullets.

[Outpost75]

Full-charge wadcutters driven hard in a ten-inch twist PPC gun are accurate to 100 yards. Fellow in Alaska has published several articles in The Fouling Shot with specifics. It can be done.

[M-Tecs]

Full-charge wadcutters driven hard in a ten-inch twist PPC gun are accurate to 100 yards. Fellow in Alaska has published several articles in The Fouling Shot with specifics. It can be done.

Thanks for the info. I've never tried them past 50 yards. An old school PPC gun is on my list of projects to build. Haven't decided on twist rate yet.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the info. I've never tried them past 50 yards. An old school PPC gun is on my list of projects to build. Haven't decided on twist rate yet.

A Green Mountain 9mm Gunsmith Special with 6 - degree forcing cone works well. If you PM me with an email address which can accept large .pdf attachments I can send the FS issues to you.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Here's the video of my gel test. 2" barrel magnum load.
https://youtu.be/O7cwfvg-2-w

[dannyd]

A Green Mountain 9mm Gunsmith Special with 6 - degree forcing cone works well. If you PM me with an email address which can accept large .pdf attachments I can send the FS issues to you.


What are the FS issue numbers?

[Rapidrob]

I started shooting the hollow base .357 wad cutters back in the 70's. Accuracy is outstanding.
For a defensive load, the same bullet inserted into the case backwards ( hard cast ) is devastating to flesh. Yes,cloths will fill the cavity,but the bullet base will expand like crazy and dump all of its energy into the bad guy in the first few inches.
I wish someone would do a ballistics gel test of one of these backward bullets at speed.
Even at .38 Special speeds it is deadly.
M-Tec's post on the Britt's is right on. Their .455 and .380 Man-Stopper loads were well thought out and worked well in combat.
To this day I shoot a Colt 1911 converted .38 Super to .38 AMU made by Bo-MAR / BARSTO... A .38 Special Wad-cutter only semi-auto pistol.
I have won many a match using this pistol over the decades

[rintinglen]

The MP 38 HBWC is 171 grains solid. Pretty tempting.
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My own experience with the Hollow base version was much less than stellar. Those boolits cling to the mold like a spoiled child hanging on its mother's leg.

I like WC's for the reduced lead consumption, (I mostly use the 140-ish grain 358-495 or the similar H&G #50), less recoil, pleasantly accurate at distances up to 50 yards, and they kill a Prehle Target dead. I have never seen one continue to attack after taking a 38 mid-range wadcutter to the 10-ring.

[justindad]

Those square lube grooves don’t look good for mold ejection.

[Treetop]

Here's the video of my gel test. 2" barrel magnum load.
https://youtu.be/O7cwfvg-2-w

That's an outstanding video, Steve! Thanks for posting it. I agree, that WC had to be tumbling to cause that impressive wound path.

You mentioned that these were cast of pure lead, did you experience any leading at all, especially around the forcing cone? Thanks, Treetop

[justindad]

I got a feeling that a hollow point wadcutter would not tumble.
*
Why do all wadcutters have square lube grooves? Seems like the low velocity of wadcutter application would allow for a round lube groove with better mold ejection.

[gwpercle]

Take a long hard look at the Lyman # 358432 160 grain weight
(it was also made in 140 gr.) Lyman has discontinued this wadcutter .
It is not seated flush in the case but has the first driving band exposed ... it helps with accuracy .
NOE re=created this mould and if you want it can be had plain base or gas checked .
I had a old Lyman single cavity mould and all of my 38 and 357's shot this boolit best ... it can be cast and driven as hard as you want . My NOE mould is PB but if I had it to do again maybe a 4 cavity w/ 2-PB and 2- GC .
This design is often overlooked but should be given some attention .
Does anyone remember what "term" Lyman calls this WC ... the memory banks are getting slow .
NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ... it's just about the only boolit I cast for my 38 / 357's nowdays .
That flat nose hits hard and the rounded edge makes loading easier and I honestly believe the exposed driving band helps center it up in the chamber ... but I could be all wrong ...it does like to shoot groups that cluster around in a tight circle !
Gary

[justindad]

…
NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ...
Gary
This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
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[gwpercle]

This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
301248

That's it !
I wish I knew how you computer guys move stuff around like drawings ... that's amazing !

The drawing doesn't show it ...but just below the top driving band is a crimp groove ... Al can't get the CAD drawing software to draw crimp grooves ... they all look like grease grooves ... crimp gooves and grease grooves ... But the crimp groove is in just the correct spot like Lyman 358432 shows on it's bullet chart ... I have a NOE 3 cavity aluminum and it's a sweetheart . Not as heavy as a 4 cavity but more productive than a 2 cavity.
Gary

[Super Sneaky Steve]

That's an outstanding video, Steve! Thanks for posting it. I agree, that WC had to be tumbling to cause that impressive wound path.

You mentioned that these were cast of pure lead, did you experience any leading at all, especially around the forcing cone? Thanks, Treetop

I haven't gotten any leading with these loads. They hold lots of lube and usually I don't shoot a whole lot at one time. The next time I cast them I may powder coat. From my experience with pure lead hollow points powder coat eliminates any leading problems.

[justindad]

That's it !
I wish I knew how you computer guys move stuff around like drawings ... that's amazing !

The drawing doesn't show it ...but just below the top driving band is a crimp groove ... Al can't get the CAD drawing software to draw crimp grooves ... they all look like grease grooves ... crimp gooves and grease grooves ... But the crimp groove is in just the correct spot like Lyman 358432 shows on it's bullet chart ... I have a NOE 3 cavity aluminum and it's a sweetheart . Not as heavy as a 4 cavity but more productive than a 2 cavity.
Gary

Are the grease grooves round? If so, I just might be short $100 momentarily :)

[45DUDE]

Take a long hard look at the Lyman # 358432 160 grain weight
(it was also made in 140 gr.) Lyman has discontinued this wadcutter .
It is not seated flush in the case but has the first driving band exposed ... it helps with accuracy .
NOE re=created this mould and if you want it can be had plain base or gas checked .
I had a old Lyman single cavity mould and all of my 38 and 357's shot this boolit best ... it can be cast and driven as hard as you want . My NOE mould is PB but if I had it to do again maybe a 4 cavity w/ 2-PB and 2- GC .
This design is often overlooked but should be given some attention .
Does anyone remember what "term" Lyman calls this WC ... the memory banks are getting slow .
NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ... it's just about the only boolit I cast for my 38 / 357's nowdays .
That flat nose hits hard and the rounded edge makes loading easier and I honestly believe the exposed driving band helps center it up in the chamber ... but I could be all wrong ...it does like to shoot groups that cluster around in a tight circle !
Gary

I have a really nice 4 cavity IDEAL 358432 with a thick sprue plate and drops a .360 round boolit, I am getting old and fixing to thin out.

[45DUDE]

This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
301248

The nose on the first band is a bit smaller and most S&W's throats are .357. I crimp in the crimp groove. I resize to .357 and .358- depends on the gun. Just make sure it will drop in before you make a lot. If you crimp in a grease groove it needs to be .357.

[azrednek]

I've shot them in 38/357, 44 and 45 cals. they are very accurate out to 50 yards then they fall off like a pile of bricks.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Exception being my mild 148gr 38s loaded with 2.8 of Bullseye. I’m lucky getting them on paper at 35 yards without 10-12 inches of Kentucky hold over. 10-20 yards they cluster up nicely. For a very short time I got spectacular and I do mean “spectacular” results with a hollow base 41 mag wadcutter. However casting them was a very frustrating experience, the reject rate was well over 50%.

[Quinnbrian]

I have a swaging kit in 38 wadcutter. Old Pacific press model from days gone by....I cast 9mm , 147 's and put them in the swaging press and Squish them out to 38, works well.
Now I just have to find a nice lever in 357/38....at a decent price!
Cheers
Brian

[justindad]

I wonder how Longshot would do with that 160 grain wadcutter in a .357 Mag case? I like the boom of Longshot, and hoping it will do well with more of the case filled with lead.

[azrednek]

Now I just have to find a nice lever in 357/38....at a decent price!
Cheers
Brian

I can’t say how a Marlin, Henry or other lever actions do with wadcutters but they do turn my 38/357 Rossi lever action into a double feed jam-o-matic.

[dverna]

When I shot Bullseye, .38 WC's were all I loaded, but I will never load another. It is a great target bullet but a terrible all round bullet. My preference is to use one bullet for .38/.357 pistols and rifles. In fact, I use one load in .38 Spl cases for everything. It keeps things simple. I do not hunt with those guns so my needs are putting holes in paper or clanging steel.

"Tailoring" loads with different alloys, bullets and/or different guns is an interesting pastime for most reloaders. I used to do it and realized it was not important for what and how I shoot.

[Daekar]

If you're interested in a boolit that will take up space in the 357 case but still be compatible with speedloaders, check out the Accurate 36-159S. It's a NLG design with a small nose radius, high crimp groove, and wide meplat.

[KCcactus]

I can’t say how a Marlin, Henry or other lever actions do with wadcutters but they do turn my 38/357 Rossi lever action into a double feed jam-o-matic.

Are you using 38 brass or 357? My Rossi 92 in 357 will double feed with WC in 38 brass, but works great with them in 357. I load them with 1/8" or a little more outside the case. My 44 Rossi 92 works great with wc loaded the same way. My molds are hbwc from MP and they all get loaded backwards. Water filled targets are lots of fun.

[gwpercle]

Are the grease grooves round? If so, I just might be short $100 momentarily :)

Okay ... just to make sure I double checked some ... The bottom of the grease grooves are round bottomed just like the Lyman design . Also NOE makes this design in 38 cal - 41 cal - 44 cal . and 45 cal. !!!
I bought a three cavity in 41 cal. for my 41 Special / 41 Magnum loads (NOE 413 - 215 - WC ) and it's an accuracy winner also .
All calibers are ( let's say might be available) available with hollow point / flat point pins , plain base or gas check if you are into hollow points .
Both my 38 cal. and 41 cal. are standard solid point , plain base , 3 cavity , aluminum and cast like a dream .... worth every penny .
Also order a top punch(s) when you order the mould(s) ... sure beats trying to find them on e-bay .
The crimping groove is a properly shaped standard crimp groove for a roll crimp .
Whatever they don't have in stock , request an inventory run on the forum to get the ball rolling .
Hope this helps ...
Gary

[azrednek]

Are you using 38 brass or 357? My Rossi 92 in 357 will double feed with WC in 38 brass, but works great with them in 357. I load them with 1/8" or a little more outside the case. My 44 Rossi 92 works great with wc loaded the same way. My molds are hbwc from MP and they all get loaded backwards. Water filled targets are lots of fun.

I’ve only used flush seated in 38 brass. I’ll follow your lead and try your method. Being that temperatures are peaking at 110+ here in Phoenix. It will be a few months before my casting and shooting resume.

[fredj338]

Full WC make a nice hole in paper but so do SWC. So I have no real use for a WC.

[Winger Ed.]

I can’t say how a Marlin, Henry or other lever actions do with wadcutters but they do turn my 38/357 Rossi lever action into a double feed jam-o-matic.

I've had 2 Marlins in .357. A old style long barrel CB and a carbine.
They aren't real crazy about cast .38s in general, but they both really hate wad cutters, at least in .38 brass.

[Quinnbrian]

I can’t say how a Marlin, Henry or other lever actions do with wadcutters but they do turn my 38/357 Rossi lever action into a double feed jam-o-matic.
Good to know! I guess I'll have to sell off the swaging kit...I don't think I'd ever get an RPAL...not into all the government BS. So no pistols for me...maybe a couple of antique revolvers...
I like 32 cal better anyways lol.

[lightman]

Mostly what everyone else said. They are accurate and easy load. And you don't have to have wadcutter brass!