Found a little keel lead

[mkj4him]

So I hear keel lead is closer to COWW’s than pure lead in composition. Anybody know for sure? Just curious. I found a little.

301174
This is the little one. 1,800 lbs.

301173
This one weighs 3,100 lbs by my fancy math.
There is still one slightly bigger I have to go back and get. But I need a bigger trailer. Mine was hurting.

[Winger Ed.]

You'll need to test it to be sure.
Many of the boat makers used whatever they could scrounge up or buy on the cheap.
Most keels are fairly pure, but I wouldn't count on it.
If you can make a scratch in it with your finger nail, it's probably at least fairly pure.

[kevin c]

I’ve always read here that keel casters use what’s available, cheap and castable, so certified foundry alloy is not going to be used. I think it’s mainly the US navy that actually has/had a purity standard for ballast lead.

You might consider muriatic acid testing that third keel; I’d be bummed to to get a ton and a half of lead with too much zinc to be usable for bullet casting (though the acid test is only qualitative: fizzing just suggests the presence of zinc without showing how much).

[mkj4him]

I’ve seen a couple places people actually casting zinc bullets. So what’s the downside to having zinc in the alloy?

[dondiego]

I’ve seen a couple places people actually casting zinc bullets. So what’s the downside to having zinc in the alloy?

If you ever try to cast an alloy that has over 5% of zinc in it you will understand. It is really difficult to get the mold to fill out. The surface of the melt is like a thick mush and it difficult to deal with.

[mkj4him]

I guess I’ll cut a piece off and see how it melts.

[bangerjim]

Like said, anything could be in there, They used anything and everything available that would melt around Pb temps to make those weights. Same with diving weights.

There is no standard!!!!!!!!!!!

And your question about casting Zn boolits. Sure, if you are casting 100% pure Zn! Some are switching to it due to anti-Pb laws in some states. The mess you can end up with over 5% zinc (proven by me several years ago) is poor fills due to higher temps (Pb) and poor surface tension. And lighter boolits. Zn melts differently and does not fill out molds like most of us want. We all try like anything to avoid any Zn in our boolit castings. But a little (<5%) Zn hurt nothing.

Send a small sample to BNE on this forum and he will x-ray test it for you. Contact him FIRST! He has rules. Remember each big weight piece will/could be totally different!

banger

[super6]

I believe salt water keels had a good bit of zinc as sacrificial, As in salt water sail boats to stop the corrosion. My 2 cents worth.

[mkj4him]

I will be sending samples.

[imashooter2]

Keels are 100% heavy stuff that melts unless they found some heavy stuff that wouldn’t melt to pour the heavy stuff that melted around.

[P Flados]

MJK,

Quite a score. You should post your location. You might find fellow boolit men in your area that are willing to help you out and/or purchase a portion of your haul.

[mkj4him]

I’m in Leon county, Florida.

[lightman]

Nice score!

I hope you have a way to handle it once you get it home.

[oley55]

I believe salt water keels had a good bit of zinc as sacrificial, As in salt water sail boats to stop the corrosion. My 2 cents worth.

hard to imagine a boat builder/owner who would want their keels to be sacrificial. Imagine the pitting and holes. Beside zinc anodes are aways attached to metal components so that they corrode away vs the metal components. Most of the lead keels are attached to fiberglass or wood hulls which do not endure galvanic corrosion and have no need for a sacrificial metal.

[super6]

I stand corrected, As what I said its 2cents worth.

[slim1836]

You might also consider muriatic acid testing both keels before getting that third, if they bubble going after the third one may be a wasted trip. Swing by a scrap yard and they can test it, usually for free.

Slim

[oley55]

I stand corrected, As what I said its 2cents worth.

I didn’t mean to come off as a smart ***…. But I have invested plenty of bucks on zinc anodes in my past.

[super6]

All is good, I did not take it that way, I am looking forword to the op posting his results

[kevin c]

Is that one keel cut into three pieces? If so, slim1836’s suggestion to test what you already hauled away makes sense. If not, I’d test the third keel before committing youtime, money and effort.

[GregLaROCHE]

In my experience lead keel ballast from old wooden boats tends to be close to pure lead. When they started making fiberglass boats with solid fin type keels, they needed to start hardening the lead so they wouldn’t get scared or bent if they hit something.

[Hammerlane]

I am in the process of cutting up a 1940's sailboat keel and it cuts like butter. Some of the softest lead I come across. I have had a keel that had rebar in it. So anything goes in making a keel. Test it. Test it Test it. or find a sinker maker that will take all your lead ( bad decision) you had to have because it looked to good to pass up. I have a guy. LOL

[masscaster]

Being a Pb caster from the '70's it makes me ill seeing Pure Lead mixed with anything other than Sn.

Jeff

[F_L]

I am in the sailboat business and have to dispose of sailboats. I have processed a lot of keels and have all of them tested. None of them had zinc. As mentioned above, older boats generally have pretty soft keels. Newer boats will usually have some Sb, Sn but usually not more than 2-3%. I had a small (500lb) keel that was retractable via a hydraulic cylinder. I dulled 2 chainsaw blades trying to cut it up. Testing showed it to be 6% Sb, 2% Sn. I have not run into rebar but a lot of keels have SS keel bolts in them. I did run into a keel with bricks in it. That was a big *** moment. Google search on that boat said it was common. I think the designed keel was to heavy so "let's replace some lead with bricks". That ate up quite a few chainsaw blades.

[mkj4him]

My hardness test results shows 7.8 BHn
Any suggestion on what to add for typical handgun loadings? 9mm, 38, 45’s. I suppose I can add tin. I’ll be powder coating. For faster stuff; 44 mag, 35 Remington, 460 Rowland, I can heat treat and then Alox tumble lube

[Winger Ed.]

Any suggestion on what to add for typical handgun loadings? 9mm, 38, 45’s.

If you've got 'em, 1/2 & 1/2 with old school clip on wheel weights is a favorite.
At those speeds, the alloy doesn't really need any more 'goodies' in it other than to make it
easy to cast and fill out the mold.

If you had the tools & such, you could even swag them with what you've got.

[mkj4him]

So what’s a good source for free/cheep tin for adding to the mix?

[lightman]

So what’s a good source for free/cheep tin for adding to the mix?

Free or cheap tin is hard to find. Lots of guys chase Pewter food service ware as a source for tin. Solder is another source. Pure Tin can be bought from places like RotoMetals,which is a site sponsor. Some guys even find it in the lead bin at the scrap yards. Tin ain't cheap!

[P Flados]

A mix at 7.8 is not bad for 38s and 45s. 9mm can be very picky, but it might work. It will also probably work for mid range 44s.

I cast a lot of similar hardness "mystery alloy" with no additives. Give a try as is before paying extra for Sn or Sb additive material.

[mkj4him]

Thanks. I actually found a stash of some tin I had tucked away in the basement I forgot about. Not a big batch but enough to ply with for now. Going to start hunting pewter.
I just blended in my small 5 pound pot 1/2 and 1/2 of the Keel lead and WW’s + 2% tin. Sure made it more manageable real quick, and doesn’t stick to my spoon as easily. I’ll cast some tomorrow and set aside for two weeks before testing hardness. So if i powder coat later, isn’t water quenching from the mold a waste? I plan on powdering and quenching from the oven.

[imashooter2]

I think water quenching is convenient as you don’t have to keep clearing the landing area. But I would probably air cool before powder coating to keep the product clean.

[LabGuy]

I’m in Leon county, Florida.
Hello neighbor!

[mkj4him]

In my experience lead keel ballast from old wooden boats tends to be close to pure lead. When they started making fiberglass boats with solid fin type keels, they needed to start hardening the lead so they wouldn’t get scared or bent if they hit something.

It’s close at 7.8 Bhn

[mkj4him]

I think water quenching is convenient as you don’t have to keep clearing the landing area. But I would probably air cool before powder coating to keep the product clean.
Yes I will probably just air cool since I will be powder coating. I am correct, aren’t I, in my assumption that the powder coat baking would nullify the water quenching?
If I need harder bullets, I can water quench and use Alox tumble lube.

[farmbif]

there is a good chance it is pure lead. sacrificial anodes are attached to stainless, aluminum, brass and bronze. like prop shafts, rudders, trim tabs, ect. stuff that does not get painted.
if it is pure lead, foundry type is a good ally to mix with pure lead it has about the highest concentrations of antimony and tin. in an easy to get alloy from places like rotometals.

[mkj4him]

there is a good chance it is pure lead. sacrificial anodes are attached to stainless, aluminum, brass and bronze. like prop shafts, rudders, trim tabs, ect. stuff that does not get painted.
if it is pure lead, foundry type is a good ally to mix with pure lead it has about the highest concentrations of antimony and tin. in an easy to get alloy from places like rotometals.

Is FOUNDRY TYPE the type of metal alloy I’m supposed to look for?

[farmbif]

this information might be a real big help

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

[imashooter2]

Yes I will probably just air cool since I will be powder coating. I am correct, aren’t I, in my assumption that the powder coat baking would nullify the water quenching?
If I need harder bullets, I can water quench and use Alox tumble lube.

Baking and then air cooling slowly would, as I understand it, remove any hardness added by water dropping. Baking and then quenching is pretty much the same thing, although more controlled as to temperature of the quench.

[mkj4him]

I tested my Keel alloy just now. It’s been 20 day and I did a sample of air dropped and water quenched.

Air dropped Keel Lead = ~8.7 BHN
Water dropped Keel Lead = ~15.4 BHN

That’s assuming I was holding my mouth right, holding my breath and clenching my sphincter just right to see through that little Lee microscope properly.

So with these results, are there any postulations as to what my Keel Lead might be made off? It’s not pure lead but fairly close I think. Softer than WW’s?

[mkj4him]

Question: if I powder coat my water quenched keel lead bullets, baked at 400 for 20 minutes and water quenched again, do I need to wait another two weeks to test for hardness? Or even if I let them air cool?

[slim1836]

Question: if I powder coat my water quenched keel lead bullets, baked at 400 for 20 minutes and water quenched again, do I need to wait another two weeks to test for hardness? Or even if I let them air cool?

I've not been aware you could get an accurate measurement as powder coat would (IMHO) have a different BHN than the lead below it. Thickness of the coating surely (IMHO) would also have a different BHN, however, I'm following to see what others have experienced. Is there a rule of thumb on this procedure perhaps?

Slim

[oley55]

I tested my Keel alloy just now. It’s been 20 day and I did a sample of air dropped and water quenched.

Air dropped Keel Lead = ~8.7 BHN
Water dropped Keel Lead = ~15.4 BHN

That’s assuming I was holding my mouth right, holding my breath and clenching my sphincter just right to see through that little Lee microscope properly.

So with these results, are there any postulations as to what my Keel Lead might be made off? It’s not pure lead but fairly close I think. Softer than WW’s?

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?399402-Water-dropping-BHN-increase

this 2020 thread is a pretty good read. It reinforces my understanding that water quenched hardening requires antimony in the alloy. Based on your volume of lead, I'd think getting it analyzed a cost effective must. Otherwise you may find yourself running in circles.

As for measuring BHN through powder coat, I can not imagine how you could ever get a consistent value.

[mkj4him]

Anytime I test a cast bullet I carefully file a small flat surface on the side of the bullet per Lee’s instructions. I do the test on this flat surface. I would do the same on the powder coated bullet, filing through the coating and into the lead to creat the flat spot on the side of the bullet.

[lightman]

Your air cooled hardness, 8.7, is right in the middle between pure lead and clip-on wheelweights. It should work fine with the calibers that you listed just by powder coating without anything else. Most of us don't worry as much about the hardness as we do how the bullet fits the barrel. I would cast up and powder coat a few and try them.

[mkj4him]

Your air cooled hardness, 8.7, is right in the middle between pure lead and clip-on wheelweights. It should work fine with the calibers that you listed just by powder coating without anything else. Most of us don't worry as much about the hardness as we do how the bullet fits the barrel. I would cast up and powder coat a few and try them.

Thanks. I am trying to do just that. I’m working on getting a mold for my 43 Mauser M. 71. Old West Moulds has one that is supposed to drop 446-448. My bore is 454. Maybe powder coating will give me a little more thickness and the softish lead will bump up the rest of the way to fill the grooves for decent accuracy. Anyone use the Old West Moulds for the 43 Mauser?

[Springfield]

Why don't you buy a mold from Accurate Molds and get one that drops the proper diameter?

[mkj4him]

My concern is that even though my rifles groove diameter is .454 if I were to get the correct size mold I may not get it to fit the chamber watch the neck of the case got bumped up to the larger size. I am studying my options