What is the Purpose of Pointy Boolits?

[Daekar]

There was recently a thread in Swappin' and Sellin' with some pointed 38spl boolits. Very pointy, like the corner of a square with hypotenuse the length of the bullet diameter. What is the intended purpose of such a design? Additional penetration? Some kind of aerodynamic benefit?

[Noah Zark]

. . . What is the intended purpose of such a design? Additional penetration? Some kind of aerodynamic benefit?

High velocity commercial 357 Magnum loads were available with conical point boolits from the late 30s and into the 60s if not 70s, for police use for penetration of auto bodies and possibly structures. 38 Specials possibly too, but I've only seen 357 cartridges and ads for them. Cast boolit molds were available in conical profile and nominal .358 diameter in the 120 - 130 gr weight range. I recall owning such a Lyman mold in the early 70s for a time, but forgot the mold #.

[Daekar]

That makes sense! It's interesting to see solutions from the past outside of their original context.

It does make me wonder how well modern 9mm defense cartridges penetrate car bodies...

[Winger Ed.]

That makes sense! It's interesting to see solutions from the past outside of their original context.

It does make me wonder how well modern 9mm defense cartridges penetrate car bodies...


.38Specials had, and still have a hard time killing a car. When the .357Mag came along, its added penetration was one
of the reasons it was such an instant hit for law enforcement.

There's some hot rod 9mm that does OK on the penetration a car, but they still slow down enough to be
less effective at stopping bad guys inside it compared to a .357.

[FISH4BUGS]

High velocity commercial 357 Magnum loads were available with conical point boolits from the late 30s and into the 60s if not 70s, for police use for penetration of auto bodies and possibly structures. 38 Specials possibly too, but I've only seen 357 cartridges and ads for them. Cast boolit molds were available in conical profile and nominal .358 diameter in the 120 - 130 gr weight range. I recall owning such a Lyman mold in the early 70s for a time, but forgot the mold #.

it is the H&G # 73. The H&G catalog from back in the day says "#73 -.38 S&W Special. 145 grains. "Improved #64." Available in plain or bevel base or gas check base. One rounded grease groove, one crimp groove, semi-wadcutter shoulder, straight taper nose, to meplat. "Carl Haines says it is the best.38 bullet he has used. Shoots plenty of 95's with it. Another customer says "machine rest tested #73 and 30 different bullets (designs) --#73 was the most accurate" April 19, 1940."
I like that bullet. It IS very accurate.
It also looks cool, but that really doesn't count. :)

[mozeppa]

That makes sense! It's interesting to see solutions from the past outside of their original context.

It does make me wonder how well modern 9mm defense cartridges penetrate car bodies...

my uncle was law enforcement and was forced to use his 9mm on a car that was trying to run him down.
he put 3 on the windshield and they bounced off...as of the next day retired the 9mm and got a 10mm auto.

so to answer your question on..."It does make me wonder how well modern 9mm defense cartridges penetrate car bodies" .....they don't

[bruce drake]

Dean Grennell was a gun writer in the 80's and 90's and he wrote several articles about those "pointy bullet molds" in his books. I think they do a great job punching paper as I own several Lyman molds in 32, 35 and 45 caliber in that design and had a fellow shooter on this forum make me some swage dies as well to allow me to make the same profiled bullets in 30 and 9mm.

That said, I don't try to punch holes in car body panels so I can't say how well they penetrate but they do make a nice crisp hole in the paper.

[WRideout]

In 1968, while on an outing with the Explorer Scouts, a group of us were held at gunpoint by a deranged rancher, armed with a 38 special. He fired a warning shot into the door of a 68 Ford Torino, and it penetrated diagonally, coming to rest next to the door frame post.

Wayne

[Noah Zark]

it is the H&G # 73. The H&G catalog from back in the day says "#73 -.38 S&W Special. 145 grains. "Improved #64." Available in plain or bevel base or gas check base. One rounded grease groove, one crimp groove, semi-wadcutter shoulder, straight taper nose, to meplat. "Carl Haines says it is the best.38 bullet he has used. Shoots plenty of 95's with it. Another customer says "machine rest tested #73 and 30 different bullets (designs) --#73 was the most accurate" April 19, 1940."
I like that bullet. It IS very accurate.
It also looks cool, but that really doesn't count. :)

I checked my notebook. It was Lyman's 356402, 120 gr. It dropped .357/.358 so I ran it unsized.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/249/249038.jpg

Noah

[Bigslug]

Honestly, I'm not sure why one would go full pointy with a cast handgun bullet. It would likely be a hassle to lube size; you'd probably damage the noses tumble lubing; and would have to store/transport accordingly to prevent rounding them over. If cast hard enough, there would be penetration advantages, but not on the level of the old, outlawed KTW's.


That makes sense! It's interesting to see solutions from the past outside of their original context.

It does make me wonder how well modern 9mm defense cartridges penetrate car bodies...

Modern HP duty loads vs. cars. . .

They all pretty much suck on the FBI's windshield test, which is a 45-degrees-off-of-vertical slant with (if I remember correctly) a 10 or 15 degree side tilt to simulate an officer stepping to the side of an oncoming car that's trying to run him over. Typically, you lose your jacket along with about 25-30% of your bullet mass to the glass and end up with a misshapen chunk of lead that looks like a gray blob of chewed bubble gum. Penetration of the gel block afterwards is typically compromised down to either not quite or just barely making the 12" minimum standard. It's about the only area left where the bigger bullets are advantageous - more mass going in equals more mass coming out - but in handgun terms, they all suffer greatly on glass. 12 gauge slugs are the better choice in that game - you may lose 100-150 grains of lead on the glass, but there's 300 more where they came from . . .

The auto BODY test I think falls a bit short of simulating reality, but I don't know how you'd do that given all the different materials used to make different cars and all the angles they might get shot from. The test is simply two layers of the specified sheet steel set a couple inches apart and shot at a 90-degree perpendicular angle. The most common result of this is that the steel causes the hollowpoints to collapse in on themselves, after which the bullet penetrates the gelatin block completely, just like an FMJ would. The shotgun slugs are actually pretty cool in that they cookie-cutter themselves a disc of steel that rides on the nose to the end of travel through the gel. Obviously, shallower angles, rounded noses, and low handgun speeds all have the ability to change that result significantly.

[reddog81]

I have the NOE .358 mold. Here's the description from their website - "The 360-136-SP-BG4-72 is a 4 Cavity Brass mould. This mould drops a .360 caliber Plain Base 136 grain bullet with a Spire point profile type. A Carl F. Hudson design for the 38 Special and 357."

It works well for shooting paper...

"https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-moulds/358/360-136-sp-bg4/360-136-sp-bg4-4-cavity-pb-brass/

[Electrod47]

I load mine with 10 grains 2400 in .38spl brass out of a 1967 Ruger Blackhawk with 6 1/2 barrel. . Very accurate. Out of my 2 1/2" Ruger Sec 6 Not so good. Perhaps a faster powder.
www.mattsbullets.com
301136

[Kosh75287]

Some "pointy bullets" were so designed to have "adequate" aerodynamic stability on the way to the target, but to be "tail-happy" and engage in "yaw" on impact. I'm not sure that any .38 Spl./.357 Mag. projectiles were ever designed with this behaviour in mind, but I've read several times that certain of the .455 Webley rounds and the .38/200 rounds that replaced them were loaded with soft lead bullets designed to do act in exactly this way.
When the Brits got caught running afoul of the Hague Convention requiring FMJ projectiles, the soft lead bullets were replaced with FMJs. This decreased the efficacy of both rounds, though with the .455, it hardly mattered. With the .38/200 (actually, a .38/178 with the FMJs), the decrease was apparently enough to make the Brits look more seriously at the 9mm.
At least that's the way that I remember the story...

[15meter]

May want to take tiptoe through this thread:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?267149-Lyman-429303

I just looked at a four cavity 429303 mold for $50. Probably should have bought it.

Just what I need, a second 44 Mag mold. And I don't even own a 44 Mag.

But it is a cool mold. Isn't that enough of a reason?

[MT Gianni]

I checked my notebook. It was Lyman's 356402, 120 gr. It dropped .357/.358 so I ran it unsized.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/249/249038.jpg

Noah

That is a direct copy of the original 9mm German bullet. It is accurate.
The pointy ones I saw referred to had no meplate, flat spot, at all but ended like they had just seen a pencil sharpener. I have heard stories of their accuracy but believed them to be more gimmick for most shooters.

[charlie b]

I've actually had a car to shoot at with my .357 and .45. I was quite surprised, given the reputation, that very few bullets penetrated to the interior or into the engine compartment. There is a lot of 'stuff' in a car door that stops or severely deforms/deflects bullets.

[bangerjim]

I shoot those "pointy" boolits in all my revolvers and long guns 38/44/45! They look cooooooooooooooooool!

Many times, they will not cycle properly in semi auto hand guns due to profile and COL.

banger

[beagle]

Right on. The bullet they were talking about was the 358093 Lyman, not the H&G73 or the Lyman 356402.

The original design was the 429303 for the .44 Magnum by Ray Thompson for metal penetration. Then, Lyman came out with the 35893 (changed to the 358093 for ease of use in a database) for the .357 Magnum. I've had good luck with both at magnum velocities but so so luck at lower velocities. Both have grease grooves grooves that hold too much lube. I experienced lube "boogers" on the traget face at 100 yards. Both are hard to cast as the deep lube grooves tend to hold on to the square grooves and are hard to get to drop./beagle


I load mine with 10 grains 2400 in .38spl brass out of a 1967 Ruger Blackhawk with 6 1/2 barrel. . Very accurate. Out of my 2 1/2" Ruger Sec 6 Not so good. Perhaps a faster powder.
www.mattsbullets.com
301136

[Sasquatch-1]

There was recently a thread in Swappin' and Sellin' with some pointed 38spl boolits. Very pointy, like the corner of a square with hypotenuse the length of the bullet diameter. What is the intended purpose of such a design? Additional penetration? Some kind of aerodynamic benefit?

I saw the thread you are talking about. I have a swaging die that makes a bullet very similar to the one you are talking about. The one I have has a hollow base to match the point and is meant for forming light weight stackable bullets. I use it to reform 158 grn bullet into a type of hollow base wadcutter.

[John Guedry]

I have Lee 6 cavity that drops one that is the twin to that Lyman mold.

[rintinglen]

Right on. The bullet they were talking about was the 358093 Lyman, not the H&G73 or the Lyman 356402.

The original design was the 429303 for the .44 Magnum by Ray Thompson for metal penetration. Then, Lyman came out with the 35893 (changed to the 358093 for ease of use in a database) for the .357 Magnum. I've had good luck with both at magnum velocities but so so luck at lower velocities. Both have grease grooves grooves that hold too much lube. I experienced lube "boogers" on the traget face at 100 yards. Both are hard to cast as the deep lube grooves tend to hold on to the square grooves and are hard to get to drop./beagle

Actually, it was designed by Carl F Hudson, who called it the "Hi-Velo-Pen."

He made it to allow his 44 Mag Load to shoot through a mild steel 3/16 plate. There is a letter by him about this original 429-303 boolit in the 1st edition Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. His loads are pretty fierce!

[sargenv]

At one point I was looking to give myself an edge over other competitive revolver shooters. I was looking for a bullet profile that might help me "load a moonclip faster" into either my 610 or 627. I'd been using 158 and 170 RN for 38 special and a 185 RN for 40 cal in a 610. I got in on a group buy for "pointy bullet molds" and got 3. Now I wish I'd gotten a pointy mold for my 41 magnum also.

I think at the time I couldn't really tell the difference between either the pointed or RN profiles so now I have the molds as a novelty. I switched back to moly coated 158's or 170's.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m surprised it those boolits were destined to law enforcement, they weren’t jacketed .

[Sasquatch-1]

I’m surprised it those boolits were destined to law enforcement, they weren’t jacketed .

When I first went to work for the Washington D. C. police we were still carrying .38 spls. with lead hard ball ammo. we did transition to a lead hollow point, but still a lead bullet. It wasn't until we changed to Glocks that we started using jacketed bullets.

[stubshaft]

The pointy bullet Dean Grenell wrote about was a French design called an "Arcane" bullet. I had the pleasure of meeting Dean and talking with him about it. He also had Veral Smith of LBT make him a number of molds in various calibers to test the effectiveness of the design. I still have one of the .501" 375 grain molds. I've found it to be a very accurate bullet.

The original concept utilized copper bullets driven at twice the normal velocities. It was extremely destructive and IIRC the BATF banned the importation of the ammo.