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View Full Version : .38 special has small Start to Never Exceed range



ghh3rd
01-25-2009, 12:31 PM
I have never reloaded before, but have ordered and received everything that I need to start. In my Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition book I found that for .38 special 158 gr lead bullet with Bullseye the Start is 3.5 grains and the Never Exceed is 3.6 grains.

My gun is rated for +P, for which the range is 3.6 to 3.8 grains.

With only .1 or .2 grain difference, it doesn't seem like there's much room for experimentation with powder loads to achieve better accuracy, especially in the non +P. Are there other variables the one would use to experiment with instead of powder grains, such as changing the type of powder? Am I thinking correctly, or is there more to this than I'm seeing?

Are powder measures really that reliable as to not change a load from regular to up into the +P range? I know that you should measure every 5th load or so, and guess that after a while I'll get more comfortable with trusing a powder measure.

Still new - still asking lots of questions.

Thanks - Randy

HeavyMetal
01-25-2009, 12:49 PM
You have to remember that Bullseye is one of the fastest burning powders on the market! As such little increase's can change pressure curve's quick and fast.

Add to that the 38 special being a low pressure round, and reloading manufactures being a bit lery of the lawsuit syndrome, and you'll see reloading manuals staying a bit more on the safe side these days. Considering the 38 special is more than 100 years old I think thats a good thing.

As for "repeatability" in a powder measure? Depends on the quality of the measure and the powder you choose.

I have found that the Lyman 55, the RCBS Uniflow, the old Saeco measure's and several others will stay put once set, again depending on the powder you choose!

So most ball powders meter great, Bullseye, Unique, Red dot, Green dot, Blue dot, no issues.

Move up to some of the big slow rifle powders and you may wind up dropping two grains light and using a "trickler" to finish of the charge weight!

I have never been a fan of "pushing" a load, or gun, to it's limits. The 642 should be fun and, If you have the Bullseye already, those standard loads will do everything you need them to do.

After all needing a bigger gun give's one the reason to go buy another gun.

GP100man
01-25-2009, 01:12 PM
Clays is even less than BE , 2.5 grs for the 38spl.

GP100man:cbpour:

GS1458
01-25-2009, 01:18 PM
Hello,

I would start with 3.0 grains and work your way up. We shoot a lot of Cowboy Loads, and before I changed to TRAIL BOSS we used 3.0 grains of BULLSEYE w/ either 125 or 158 lead RNFP. The TRAIL BOSS seamed to have less FELT RECOIL for my wife. ( I really couldn't feel the difference ).

Good Luck

ghh3rd
01-25-2009, 03:17 PM
This is for a snub with a 1 7/8 barrel. Actually I'd like to load some as light as possible so I can get my wife to try it with the most chance that she will continue. However, I heard that on snub barrels, lighter than normal loads can somehow actually increase the pressure. Is that true?

Randy

35remington
01-25-2009, 03:31 PM
"I heard that on snub barrels, lighter than normal loads can somehow actually increase the pressure. Is that true?"

No. Let's not get started on the "flash over" phenomenon or the other imaginings of guys who actually double charged a case with light loads then want to blame something else besides their own carelessness. Such "high pressure, very low charge weight" theorists are finding the convenient, imaginary excuse rather than the very most likely explanation. High pressure comes from using too much powder. Fast powders were designed to be used in small charge weights.

As charges are reduced in the relatively large capacity .38 case, velocities will go down and nothing else will happen, save that extreme spreads in velocity may increase somewhat as the powder may be well forward or rearward in the case, affecting ignition characteristics.

Fortunately, most pistol powders are reasonably position insensitive with reasonable charges, but there is no advantage to going too light and decreasing velocity excessively as you may stick a bullet in the barrel (admittedly less likely with a snubbie, but at some point it will occur in these, too). If you use a deeply seated 148 grain cast wadcutter that takes up more case space variations in velocity will decrease as opposed to a more shallowly seated bullet.

bobk
01-25-2009, 05:07 PM
ghh3rd,
If you want to get the lightest recoiling rounds, you should concentrate your efforts on using the lightest bullet possible, consistent with accuracy. Personally, I have never had good results with the 110 gr., but most 125s shot well. The full bearing length should be longer than the unsupported length in the gun, the forcing cone. They should also be a close fit to the cylinder throats.

Bob K

Dale53
01-25-2009, 05:16 PM
The .38 Special has a LOT to recommend it for general use. I shoot a good bit of the .38 loads and have, over the years, settled on a "system". I load two loads:

1-Target load is 2.7-3.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent with a 148 gr Wadcutter
(whichever shoots better in YOUR gun).

2- Lee 358-158 gr - RF with 4.2 grs of Bullseye (standard .38 Special load from the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook).

I only have two loads to keep track of and I can tell with ONE glance which is which.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

crabo
01-25-2009, 06:58 PM
The Lee 125 rfn cowboy bullet shoots great in a bunch of my guns. I size it to 359. 231 is a great powder for 38.

JSnover
01-25-2009, 09:43 PM
Think about buying or borrowing a smaller gun, like a .22 or .32. If she likes it she won't have any trouble graduating to something bigger. I tried teaching three different women with a .38 snub a long time ago and neither of them really cared for it. Recoil wasn't excessive or painful. It was just difficult with that short barrel and small grip. They all thought "it felt weird" and kept asking "are you sure it's supposed to do that?"

Down South
01-25-2009, 11:17 PM
You might consider buying a different powder that has a wider range. I use 2.5 gr of Titegroup for my plinking loads with the 38 using a 148 gr wadcutter. The max load is upwards of 3.5 Gr and I have data that goes as low as 2.1 gr. This is a good load for someone just starting out with a light J-frame revolver. Of course there are a lot of other powders out there that can give you light plinking loads too.

Bret4207
01-26-2009, 09:00 AM
You might also consider getting the Lyman book. I know some guys like the Lee books, but IMO they suck swamp water.

Willbird
01-26-2009, 10:58 AM
The LEE book is very "challenged" for Hercules/Alliant data, I wonder if they got it from one of those free handout Alliant powder guides you see at the gun store ??

I agree get a Lyman manual, also peruse the online data for some of the powder mfg, Hogdon is very good, Alliant seems to only have ONE load listed in many cases, no "start" and "never exceed" just the one single load.

One benefit of the LEE book is it tells you the volume of the powder charge so you can guess how well it will fill the case.

Bill

sargenv
01-26-2009, 12:36 PM
Another thing you can do if you are concerned about low charge weight in a 38 is to use a shorter cartridge that is the same width. I know several people around my locale that use 38 long colt and/or 38 short colt (Mostly for gaming in the ICORE game) but if you use the 38 long colt or short colt, you just need load to their maximums and it will be more than enough for what you want to do. Brass is usually from Starline as factory ammo for those calibers is quite expensive. In a 38 short colt, you'd size with a 38 spl die and flare and crimp with a 9mm (if you already have that die) or with 38 short colt if you do not.

Personally I think it's a bit of a handful to have a new shooter try to shoot a less than 2" snub for a first firearm.. something in a 4 or 6" would likely be more her speed as a 2" anything is going to be a handful even with light loads.

Ghugly
01-26-2009, 01:21 PM
A lot of good advice here. If you go for the start load of 3.5 grains, it will probably be a dandy load. My concern is more about teaching someone to shoot with a snubby. I've seen very experienced shooters become frustrated when trying to hit anything with a snubby. If it is at all possable, you want your students first experience to be a positive one.

bobk
01-26-2009, 01:58 PM
I'm not a world-class shooter, but I have never done decent work with a J-frame, or with an aluminum Colt. The Detective Special, OTOH, makes me look good, even better since I put the 3" barrel on it.

I agree with Skeeter. He did a write up many years ago, describing his ideal 4" .357. Ruger produced the closest thing to it, the original Security Six with the light barrel. It's just a right-sized piece, IMO.

Bob K

Dale53
01-26-2009, 02:11 PM
I would NEVER argue with another over THEIR choice of revolver - it is entirely too subjective and we have all had different experiences that shape our desires ("some like blonds, some like brunettes, etc").

However, I bought a Ruger Security Six when it first came out. It was a 4" model and after I did a trigger job (it was sorely needed, like most of the Rugers I have owned) it became a most decent handgun. It was rugged, had a better than decent double action but I could never shoot it well. I tried and tried. I am not a world class shooter but I assure you, I am competent. I just could not reach my own potential with this revolver.

I had a friend who really coveted that revolver, so I sold it to him and bought a new S&W Model CS-1 686 (4"). Immediately my scores jumped dramatically. I have tried to analyze the difference and the best I can come up with is that the Smith has a more pleasing trigger with my particular shooting style. The single action is superb (dead clean break, with little overtravel) and the double action is quite smooth. I can do as good work with that revolver as I can with any. Certain few revolvers of my acquaintance seem to hit that "magic" level and the 686 is one of them (as are the 624's and 625's and the wonderful "K's"). Understand, the blued versions can do as well (I just happen to have an affinity for stainless while owning and using with great satisfaction a number of fine blued revolvers).

Take the above as you will but those are my carefully considered comments.

Dale53

bobk
01-26-2009, 02:29 PM
Dale,
I had a stainless Security Six that I transferred to my wife, now ex. Her hands are small. I worked up a load that Remington later duplicated with their mid power 125gr. load. I worked the double action until I had a smooth 7# pull. Just as a test, I loaded some rounds with Rem 7 1/2 primers. It busted them all, double action. I took a Pachmayr Compac grip and cut it out at the bottom rear. Looked funny, but suited her fine.

I got myself a 4" 586. Loved it, shot it well, especially double action. She hated it! It was a half pound heavier, and that made all the difference, to her. She did not enjoy holding it up. The Ruger was not a problem for her. That's why I mentioned the Ruger. It might have the best combination of features for an average sized woman. She could hit cans at reasonable distances, and was confident in her ability to use it.

I didn't listen closely enough, sometimes. Finally she got through to me that she wanted a Marlin 1894C. Only after I bought it for her did I appreciate it's utility. After we split, I bought it from her. Nice gun.

Bob K

Dale53
01-26-2009, 03:59 PM
My youngest son recently visited us with his wife for the week-end. I made a present to him of a nice S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece. This was THE duty gun for most police in the U.S. for many, many years. My example was a California County ex-leo revolver. It has some minor holster wear but is perfect mechanically (probably 95%-98%). It has obviously been properly cared for and is as tight as a new gun.

Sean is an experienced pistoleer but his wife has never shot a revolver. I gave him a quantity of my reloaded target loads (148 gr WC's)and a quantity of standard loads (158 gr Lee 358-158-RF's). I then took them to our indoor range at my local club. I set them up with a MTM pistol rest and Sean's wife had her first chance at shooting. Sean had drawn her a picture of a proper sight picture so she knew how to properly sight the revolver.

She quite enjoyed the action and did quite well. They'll progress with her shooting mostly target loads until she gets proficient.

This is nearly a perfect platform for a woman. Medium weight, 4" barrel and good natural pointing potential. In fact, it is a VERY good "house gun" in every way. The Ruger Single Six, as "bobK" mentions is also good for the purpose. I also find that these revolvers are very nice trail guns and work just fine in the hunting fields for edible small game.

On the other hand, while my daily carry is an S&W 642 I would not recommend that for anyone else until they had a good bit of work with a medium size revolver. Good work can be done with snubbies by experienced shots but they are NOT a good "first platform". I have shot amazing scores with my "J" frame "Target Chief" (3" fully lugged barrel with adjustable sights) but I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through handguns including competition in NRA Bullseye, PPC, IPSC, and Hunter Pistol as well as serious hunting experience.

Just start a new shooter with a medium, then a "J" frame, if the interest is there, for CCW. We need to think "long term" instead of "right now". It is in the new shooter's best interest to do so.

One comment that I would like to make. Woman are MUCH easier to teach to shoot than men. Men often let "ego" get in their way of learning ("I know everything there is about shooting, after all I am a "merican" and have seen all of those movies). Woman are maybe a bit smarter than we are and seem to know when they DON'T KNOW and pay attention to what is said to them. They seem to progress at a rapid fashion (besides, they are better looking:mrgreen:).

Dale53

TAWILDCATT
01-26-2009, 05:10 PM
I use 700X with 2.8 gr and 148 gr WC.I use it in an airweight 2' barrel also in mod 10 in 4"bomar rib.2.8 is the normal target load.and I dont have any trouble shooting the airweight.the main thing to shooting good scores is to shoot target first and learn the trigger pull.the 148 can be used for full loads as well.I have
Lyman 4 cavity molds,lee was not in existants at that time.I would get the lee
358-148-wc. 700X is same as bullseye.in this application.I use it in 25acp /32 acp/
380/38s/45acp/9mm.stay away from heavy loads.:coffee: [smilie=1:

bobk
01-26-2009, 05:55 PM
Dale,
Nice gift! Wanna adopt me?: -D I do like the single action better on the Smith. Now, my 586 has an 8.5 double action, but oh so smooth. Rounded and polished the trigger face, no torquing in double action.

Bob K