12 gauge reloads

[Half Dog]

I’m trying to reload for a 12 gauge and keep the speed around 1200 FPS. Kiddo and I enjoy shooting skeet, 5 stand, sporting clays, and trap. The shooting distances vary in each event so we’re trying to find the best choke for each. Currently I’m working on making 7/8 oz loads and I wanted to ask:

If you wanted to keep the speed at 1200 FPS would you develop a load for each choke?

Thank you in advance for your time and effort.

[MrWolf]

When we were trap shooting and Clay's with an occasional skeet thrown in along with the "fun" shoots, I just developed a standard load that fit how we shoot the birds. Ended up using International Clay's from memory and made loads for regular and handicap. We found we broke more birds this way by finding the speed that worked best. I know this was opposite of what you wanted but giving another option. We had the chokes but just kept it to one. Good luck.

[Budzilla 19]

If you standardize your speed to 1200 FPS, then, if the shot load is 1/2 ounce, 3/4,7/8,or all the way up to 1 1/8, lead,( whatever style you choose, be it sustained lead, or pass through), swing
and follow through should be the same with all shot load weights. Just my opinions. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

[la5676]

Few reloaders are capable of keeping velocity within 20-30 fps +/- of a recipe they chose. Don't worry about a few fps one way or another of what you are wanting, the target won't know the difference, and your leads will not change. Most trap shooters like the 1145 fps factory rounds. Chronographed loads are normally done, (I think) with more open chokes. Tighter chokes will give slightly faster speeds. I would make it simple and load one recipe, get accustomed to the recoil and lead needed for your targets, and make it easy on yourself.

My two pesos.

[Half Dog]

I’ve measured 250 FPS difference between a Skt and IC. I’m not sure how that affects lead but it seems like it could. Please let me know your thoughts.

[dverna]

Choke will not affect muzzle velocity much...if at all. No way changing chokes causes the difference you are seeing.

First...trust the data in published loads. It is close enough for your needs.

Time of flight to 40 yards for #8 chilled shot is:

For MV of 1300 fps .143 sec
For MV of 1200 fps .149 sec
For MV of 1100 fps .156 sec

On a crossing target traveling 40 mph here is the difference in lead:
.006 seconds multiplied by about 59 fps (40 mph) comes to .336 feet or 4 inches.

One reason I use 1125 fps for competition loads in Singles and Doubles is that recoil is less. For Handicap, I run 1200 fps not for lead but for energy to break birds at longer ranges. I am not good enough to worry about a 4" difference in lead at 40 yards. At 40 yards I have a pattern that does the job and 1 1/8 oz of shot.

You need to look at your choke and patterns at the distances you will engage targets. Forget about worrying about lead and velocity.

Put up a sheet of paper at 30 yards. Now fire your 7/8 oz load with say an IM choke. See how many holes are in your pattern. If there are a lot of holes (and there will be) you have two choices. Use a tighter choke and accept you will have more misses at longer ranges (because if you are at a F choke at 30 yards you are maxed out) or increase the number of pellets. The third choice is smaller shot...but past 30 yards 9's lose a lot of energy.

If you have a pattern that is acceptable at 30 yards. Set up targets at other ranges and change out choke tubes until you get the size and pattern density you want.

I only use 7/8 oz loads for training new shooters to keep recoil down. There are not enough soldiers out there to do battle if you want to shoot good scores.

A pattern board is a great education. A chronograph is a waste of time and money for shooting clays.

One last thing. Some wads perform better than others. It is another aspect to pattern evaluation.

[Half Dog]

Thanks for the great information. Part of my problem is the availability of published data. Cheddite primers are available so that is what I use and I am wanting a load that I can easily shoot for each event. What I have is:
12 gauge
reclaimed shot (7-1/2 & 8 & 9)
7/8 oz charge bar
Win AA-HS hulls
Cheddite primers
Clays powder
CB1100-12 wads

I tried 16.9 grains of Clays and the readings were 1500 (ish) FPS, which is questionable but repeatable. Substituting the CB1100-12 wads for WAA12SL and Cheddite for Win209, Hodgdons data says I should get 1200 FPS. I seem to have gotten more horsepower than I wanted.

Perhaps I had enough oil left in the barrel to reach the higher speed?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Excellent Post Don!

Randy

[dverna]

Thanks for the great information. Part of my problem is the availability of published data. Cheddite primers are available so that is what I use and I am wanting a load that I can easily shoot for each event. What I have is:
12 gauge
reclaimed shot (7-1/2 & 8 & 9)
7/8 oz charge bar
Win AA-HS hulls
Cheddite primers
Clays powder
CB1100-12 wads

I tried 16.9 grains of Clays and the readings were 1500 (ish) FPS, which is questionable but repeatable. Substituting the CB1100-12 wads for WAA12SL and Cheddite for Win209, Hodgdons data says I should get 1200 FPS. I seem to have gotten more horsepower than I wanted.

Your chronograph is not giving you good numbers. The unit may be faulty or be set up too close and getting fooled by the muzzle blast. Like I said in my first post...you are wasting your time using is. Trust the published data. If you decide to continue using the chronograph this might be worth reading:

https://www.practical-shotgun.com/chronograph-for-shotgun

None of the top shooters I have met or taken lessons from ever used a chronograph. If you want to shoot good scores, pattern your loads, take a few lessons, and shoot a lot. The other important aspect of patterning is not only to determine pattern density but POI. A gun that patterns well but has POI 12" from POA is not going to be effective. POI can be adjusted with an adjustable comb. If you find your POI and POA are not very close, PM me and I will try to help:

Here is the comb on my Trap gun. I had to correct for both a horizontal POI variation and I wanted my vertical POI about 10" higher than POA as in trap the birds are rising and I do not cover the bird when releasing the shot.

300907

300908

[Half Dog]

Again, more great info. Thanks so much for your input. I was hoping to get the 1125 FPS, or so, but it seems I am going about it the wrong way. I’ll visit the pattern boards soon and check the POI vs POA. I have some paper that is 25 x 30”. Would that be large enough? If not, what size do you recommend?

[Scorpion8]

I only use 7/8 oz loads for training new shooters to keep recoil down. There are not enough soldiers out there to do battle if you want to shoot good scores.

Gonna strongly disagree here. I use 7/8th loads exclusively for 1st shot on doubles, as (yes) it keeps recoil down so I can get on 2nd shot quicker. This 7/8ths load is fine for 1st shot because you know exactly where the clay will be. Choke and speed are two separate topics in my books, and the variation between a light- and heavy-handicap load on 20yd handicap is probably not worth sniffling at. But choke selection is.

[MrWolf]

Gonna strongly disagree here. I use 7/8th loads exclusively for 1st shot on doubles, as (yes) it keeps recoil down so I can get on 2nd shot quicker. This 7/8ths load is fine for 1st shot because you know exactly where the clay will be. Choke and speed are two separate topics in my books, and the variation between a light- and heavy-handicap load on 20yd handicap is probably not worth sniffling at. But choke selection is.

I used 7 1/2 in a 1 1/8 load for everything including Doubles and handicap. My only change was the charge in handicap. Once we did that, our scores really improved and we managed to win a few. Good luck.

[DDriller]

Pattern boards are an excellent place to start. After you get the pattern situated borrow a ShotKam and see why you are missing.

[dverna]

Gonna strongly disagree here. I use 7/8th loads exclusively for 1st shot on doubles, as (yes) it keeps recoil down so I can get on 2nd shot quicker. This 7/8ths load is fine for 1st shot because you know exactly where the clay will be. Choke and speed are two separate topics in my books, and the variation between a light- and heavy-handicap load on 20yd handicap is probably not worth sniffling at. But choke selection is.

Please ignore this advice.

To the OP, IMO you are making a mistake using a 7/8 oz load for trap, sporting clays or five stand. This will became obvious when you spend an hour on the pattern board.

I have spent many hours patterning shotguns. I have won a few trinkets at the Grand, Regional and State events. You will find plenty of folks who will tell you what want to hear. Most do not test or think hitting 22/25 is a good score.

In the end, let common sense guide you and realize the pattern board does not lie. I have nothing more to contribute.


Good luck.

[MarkP]

Depends on your targets, in particular the presentation or orientation of the target and distance.

In 5 Stand and sporting clays some targets are like shooting at a dinner plate, the full diameter of a 110 mm target at 15 yds. I knew guys that carried different loads when shooting sporting clays. Maybe 3/4 oz of #9's and spreader wads for incoming targets and 1-1/8 oz 7-1/2's for springing teal that were 40 yds out and something else for crossing targets. Others would shoot the same load and change chokes at every station and some that would keep the same choke in for all targets.

In skeet the targets are much closer as compared to trap.

In trap a straight away is basically a 25 x 110 mm silhouette that is nearly 3.5 times smaller than the diameter target presentation. So pattern density would be more important. In trap targets are pretty easy to hit also really easy to miss. Mind drift and lack of concentration will get you more than your loads. IMO. Ya I know on some targets you do everything right but still miss and have no idea why. Pattern density may get you but if you are not shooting competivealy who really cares?

In addition many skeet shooters will shoot a sub gauge in the 12 ga event in registered shoots. They would not do it if it was a real disadvantage to use a 28 ga 3/4 oz of #9's vs 1-1/8 oz 12 ga. I know when I shot skeet often I shot my 28 ga better and more consistently than my 12 ga. Also know after shooting several hundred rounds of 28 ga and switching back to a 12 ga the first shot is rather surprising. I noticed this when I was in my early 20's when I was in top physical condition and I was used to being hit while playing contact sports. That was a huge eye opener to me. Recoil is important even when shooting singles. We all know the guy that compares BC's, MV's, and Trajectories and buys a 28" barreled 30-378 Wby with a 6 x 24 x 50 mm scope instead of an iron sighted 20" 35 Rem to hunt deer in hilly timber. Buys it due to a perceived advantage.

Sounds you are like me you would prefer to be a Jack of all trades shooter and just want to enjoy shooting your own loads with your son and really do not care to be a specialized shooter / master of only one shotgun discipline.

Try your loads and enjoy yourself making the assessment.

[Half Dog]

I appreciate all of this great feedback. It seems each has found what works best for them and I now have new ideas to try.
I can’t see myself being a national champ but I enjoy watching. I get more enjoyment from seeing kiddo break clays than breaking them myself. But I’ll still do the best I can and enjoy doing it.

[farmbif]

if you can go to an appliance shop and get big boxes to use to see what your pattern looks like it can be a big help. since your not experimenting with different wads and keep the same load in the same gun the only variables will be choke and distance.

[toot]

I use the square load in both my 12 & 10 gauge shot guns with BP, or a SUB.

[6pt-sika]

I’m an advocate of using the same load for all only thing I change might be the shot size . I load 1 1/8 ounce for skeet trap 5-stand and sporting .

[vernm]

My main concern is the reclaimed shot. It is fine for skeet at 7/8oz, ~1200fps. But at longer distances the reclaimed, even with heavier charges, may be thin and inconsistent. The irregularly shaped shot in reclaimed will fly out of the pattern at distance. You will also need different wads. The WAA 12SL are good for 1oz loads with your components. But you need WAA12L (gray) for 7/8oz.

For now, I would just shoot and have fun. Don't worry too much about velocities and chokes

[toot]

as for shot size, I use what ever I have even mixed grades of shot. even cut open duds and cut out and dump out the shot what ever size it is, I don't care, it is free shot. jmho.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My standard 12 ga. load is now New AA Hulls, 20 gr of Green Dot,. Claybuster WAA12 clone, 1 1/8 oz. #8 reclaimed or new shot (availability?) Cheddite Primers which I have converted to due to that's all that's available, and the ends are sealed so they don't get contaminated. I will stay with these as none have failed yet.

My used DL366 came to me set up for this load and I saw no need to change it. I set up my DL266 single stage for teh smae load adn I also load Round Balls and lee slugs with it as well.

In Don Verna's Post above he ran numbers on the differences Leeds versus Velocity, The operative point of the whole post was,,, You ain't gonna see the difference!

I am big on Standard Loads. I have one load for virtually every cartridge I reload for with only a few exceptions.. The reasons for this are simple. Each load does exactly what I want from it and there is no need to look further into it. I will now go shoot something which is the whole Idea of reloading in the first place.

M y .02 on this subject.

Randy

[6pt-sika]

I acquired thirty pounds of 800x about two months ago . That'll get pressed into use once I've used up all the Red Dot , Green Dot , WIN Super Handicap , WIN 572 , Unique , WIN WSF and SR7625 .

I've about got loads worked out for everything from the 10 gauge 2 7/8" down to the 28 gauge for the no longer made 800x .

Incidentaly I've got 20+ bags of 7 1/2's waiting for me in PA when I go up next week and hopefully a couple bags of 6's . Came by these plain and simple because a friend called and said I can get this at this price , how much do you want ?

[megasupermagnum]

That 800x should be a phenomenal powder for your reduced pressure 8 gauge loads as well. Where you would find data, I have no idea. The stuff burns really well at low pressures for such a slow powder.

[6pt-sika]

Got some excellent news today . My friend that texted me about shot in PA has thirty bags of 7 1/2’s and two bags of 6’s for me ! $49 a bag all inclusive . The 7 1/2’s I’m splitting with a friend . So we should both be good for shot until this time next year .

[dverna]

Got some excellent news today . My friend that texted me about shot in PA has thirty bags of 7 1/2’s and two bags of 6’s for me ! $49 a bag all inclusive . The 7 1/2’s I’m splitting with a friend . So we should both be good for shot until this time next year .

Good for you!

And good for sharing.

[6pt-sika]

Good for you!

And good for sharing.
In my two trips for shoots in PA this year I’ll have picked up fifty bags of 7 1/2’s . Of those my friends gotten half of them . I look out for him , he does my stock work :wink:

[6pt-sika]

That 800x should be a phenomenal powder for your reduced pressure 8 gauge loads as well. Where you would find data, I have no idea. The stuff burns really well at low pressures for such a slow powder.

I’ve got about ten pounds of Clays for the 1 1/2 ounce 8 gauge loads , more than that of Universal Clays for the 1 3/4 ounce loads . And plenty Blue Dot for the heavier yet stuff . I’ve not deviated much from the loads in Armbrust’s book other than buckshot , roundball and slug loads .

[smkummer]

All good advice here. When my son shot 16 yard trap for 7 years, I went from 1 1/8 oz. to 1oz. for practice. We stayed with 1 1/8 for tournaments and sporting clays ( some shots are way out there). For a “do all” load, I would go with 1 oz. at 1150-1200.

[6pt-sika]

All good advice here. When my son shot 16 yard trap for 7 years, I went from 1 1/8 oz. to 1oz. for practice. We stayed with 1 1/8 for tournaments and sporting clays ( some shots are way out there). For a “do all” load, I would go with 1 oz. at 1150-1200.

I shot four day SxS event at Rock Mountain in PA last Thursday thru Sunday . Anyway Mike throws some targets that are forty to quite possibly 65ish yards . Granted that part of the course is just for 10’s and 12’s but they’re out there .